"bf" wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than
10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.

You can use 10/2... on most breaker boxes, the ground and white wire
are connected to the same bus anyhow.. You only need 10/3 for something
like a 4 prong dryer plug.


Not for 240V operation.

--

-Mike-

"resrfglc" wrote in message
news:txifh.4246$495.2153@trnddc06...


If you "fix" your wiring to do otherwise, none of the safety measures
designed into the product may save your home or ass as intended.

an your insurance is voided

Wrong.

and your liability is (neighbor's house catches fire) is 100%.

Wrong.

--

-Mike-

Swingman wrote:

you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.
What if it's a dust collector?

No problem ... ground it to the jointer.



What if I don't have a jointer?

Ground it to your bench grinder, and call it a jointer.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article .com,
"Robatoy" wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:


Right, and wiring a 240V motor with three wires (two ungrounded
conductors,
one groundING conductor, and NO groundED conductor) is the approved
manner of
doing so.

Wonder what the 3rd wire on a 220 outlet on a generator does? It isn't
a 'ground' until you hammer in several feet of copper rod into the
ground beside the generator..or am I just stirring ****?

It's the neutral, as in tapped from the center of the transformer
secondary,
same as the supply from the utility company. It's there so that you can
run
240 *and* 120 loads.

Ground is the generator frame.


Only if you tie the generator frame to earth ground.

--

-Mike-

Doug Miller wrote:
The three phases are tapped off a rotary generator at
the power plant, 120 degrees apart, with the neutral as earth ground.

That is correct. That configuration is visible at the transmission
lines.
The very basic reason for that, is the attainable rpm of either 2 or 4
pole generators.
4 Pole being the choice of large diameter (1800 RPM turbines, lest the
turbine blade-tips break the soundbarrier.)

r

Robatoy wrote:

The very basic reason for that, is the attainable rpm of either 2 or 4
pole generators.

What does any of that have to do with the use of 3 phase transmission,
or 3 phase transformers?

In article . com, "Andy Dingley " wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

120V devices
are powered by using any one of the three phases, and a neutral which is
bonded to earth ground.

208V devices use any two of the three phase conductors, or all three, and no
neutral.

That's what I'm telling you. Both systems are wired through similar
cabling, but the neutral only gets used when it's supplying a simgle
phase device.

OK, we're on the same page now. You confused me with your reference to it as a
"combination" of 3-phase and single-phase -- that's not the way I see it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "Mike Marlow" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article .com,
"Robatoy" wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:


Right, and wiring a 240V motor with three wires (two ungrounded
conductors,
one groundING conductor, and NO groundED conductor) is the approved
manner of
doing so.

Wonder what the 3rd wire on a 220 outlet on a generator does? It isn't
a 'ground' until you hammer in several feet of copper rod into the
ground beside the generator..or am I just stirring ****?

It's the neutral, as in tapped from the center of the transformer
secondary,
same as the supply from the utility company. It's there so that you can
run
240 *and* 120 loads.

Ground is the generator frame.


Only if you tie the generator frame to earth ground.

No, the generator frame is still equipment ground, whether or not it's tied to
earth ground. *Not* tying it to earth ground isn't good practice, but that
doesn't change the fact that it *is* equipment ground for the power produced
by the generator.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...



Keep in mind that if you have a left tilt saw, you need a right tilt
jointer
to keep things complementary.


BUT !! Would you not have to run your fresh cut wood through a right tilt
jointer, Backwards if you use a left tilt saw?

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"B A R R Y" wrote in message
Swingman wrote:

you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.

What if it's a dust collector?

No problem ... ground it to the jointer.


BUT don't lick you finger and touch it.

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...



And... who is liable for damages if there is a house fire? Here it
comes...
THE INSURANCE COMPANY. Please explain how the home owner is going to
liable
for wiring a saw with 10/2 with a ground? He's not. Even if he wires it
wrong and sells the house, he's not liable. Geeze...


That is correct. My insurance man filled me in on that and a real estate
friend concurred.

Andy Dingley wrote:
Robatoy wrote:

The very basic reason for that, is the attainable rpm of either 2 or 4
pole generators.

What does any of that have to do with the use of 3 phase transmission,
or 3 phase transformers?

Everything. Try working out the rpm at 60 Hz and pole structure with 4
or 5 windings.

Is any of it relevant to the topic at hand? Nope.

r

Leon wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message
...



Keep in mind that if you have a left tilt saw, you need a right tilt
jointer
to keep things complementary.


BUT !! Would you not have to run your fresh cut wood through a right tilt
jointer, Backwards if you use a left tilt saw?

How fresh?

r

Leon wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"B A R R Y" wrote in message
Swingman wrote:

you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.

What if it's a dust collector?

No problem ... ground it to the jointer.


BUT don't lick you finger and touch it.

I don't know you well enough to have you lick MY finger.

r

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:07:07 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:


"DonkeyHody" wrote in message

Toller wrote:
Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than
10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.

I assume you are talking about 10/2 WITH GROUND. You don't need a
neutral, but you definitely need a ground.

Now, if you can convince my framing and trim crews of that, who routinely
use two wires with NO plug to run their 220v equipment, my hat will be off
to you!

And for the OP ... In the sense that 220/240 equipment will work without a
ground wire (just a hot from each leg is all that is "needed" to function),
you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.

BUT, and it's a BIG but, you will surely want to have a ground, if for
nothing else but code compliance and safety.

The neutral is not used for 220/240v unless the equipment needs 115v
internally for timers, lights, etc ... not something normally found in
woodworking shop equipment.

Now, we sit back and wait for the flames to start ...


Wrecklish - A Guide For The Non-Native Speaker

"'Lecktricity" - Although thought to be in the firm grip of science by
most, Wreckers have proven this to be a fecund area of debate and
opinion. When soliciting "Advise" about "'Lecktricity", one must
always be sure that it is "UL Approved", rather than "URL Approved".

"Planner", "Planar", "Planer" - All of these refer to a machine that
is used to thickness and surface lumber. They may be used
interchangeably but the local preference is for "Planner". Some would
insist that a good "Planner" would make his infeed and outfeed
"Planar" with the bed of the "Planer" but these sorts don't last long
around here.


"Jointer", "Joiner" - Also terms that can be swapped indiscriminately
without fear of reprisal. To those who would say that a "Joiner" can
use a "Jointer" but that most "Jointers" lack the intellect to use a
"Joiner" properly, most Wreckers would merely say, "Feh!".


"Mantel", "Mantle" - This one is obviously a fielder's choice although
the origin is cloaked in mystery. It is said by some that a "Joiner"
may wear a "Mantle" whilst building a "Mantel", while one who would
wear a "Mantel" might have a Christ Complex, or at least be
uncomfortable at parties. Ancient references suggest that Mickey
Mantle, while capable of building a Mickey Mantel, could not construct
a Mickey Mantle, at least out of wood. Then again…


"Advice", "Advise", "Vice", "Vise" - Certainly all victims of the same
root structure, these are properly used as follows: "I went to the
Wreck to solicit "Advise" about the proper selection of a "Vice" and
having been "Adviced" by the cognoscenti, I avoided the "Vise" of
misapplication." Sparkling in its clarity, that.


"Board Foot", "Bored Foot" - Whilst one is a unit of measure equal to
144 cubic inches, the other is what happens to a pedestrial appendage
that is used as a hold down on the drill press. Which is which is a
matter of hot debate.


"Tenon", "Tendon" - While it is entirely proper to say "He severed his
"Tendon" while cutting his "Tenon", it is also perfectly fine to say
"He severed his "Tenon" while cutting his "Tendon". Don't worry about
this one it hardly ever comes up.


"SawStop" - A device which has been proven to make safe the cutting of
hotdogs on the tablesaw. The Hotdog, Wurst, Weiner and Kielbasa Cabal
is said to be pushing for its required use on all future tablesaws.


"Spontaneous Combustion" - A theory proposed by the those who insist
that dust collection piping that is made of plastic will lead
inevitably to shop explosions of nearly nuclear force. (cf:
parthenogenesis.)


"Norm", "Roy" - Greek gods cloaked in the motley of modern usage. The
"Normites" make use of "'Lecktricity" (see below) while the "Royds"
eschew all modern devices, save "BandAids", which are specifically
included in their rituals and are, in fact, the common sign of the
brethren, so that they may know each other at WoodDorking Shows.

I must humbly beseech you to accept my apologies for the
incompleteness of this guide and reference. I would hope that Messr.
Eisan of Canukistan would enshrine this poor beginning in the Holy FAQ
as a living document - to be added to and amended as the members see
fit.


I remain, Your Obedient Servant In WoodDorking,

Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"clause where I promise to hire an electrician"

No, its not likely to be so clearly identifiable in the small print. But
they are rife with exculpation clauses. So is your mortgage agreement.
Basically, they are not insuring against your failure to do things properly,
follow the codes, etc.

I'll bet you have never read your insurance policy or mortgage agreement all
the way through. Not being a smart-ass here, but trying to make thepoint
that it is best to build in right and bulletproof the first time out for a
number of reasons not necessarily limited to insurance, liability and so
forth,

Let's leave it at: "If your house burned down as a result of an electrical
fire, would call you all the insurer and advise that you had installed the
suspected circuit?"


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:12:02 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.



If there are no 120 accessory items on the machine.

However, as one who is at this very moment lamenting the fact that he
did not plan ahead and pull what he should have pulled when he
originally built his shop, and now to expand it will have to pull
again, knowing it would have been just as easy and not much more cost
to pull more than one would need, my advice in that area should be
predictable (as I slap my head in dismay).

But:

You do not need a grounded conductor if you do not have any
requirement for it on the machine.

You DO need a grounding conductor. You're health and well being might
require it. Additionally, you will negate the work of that fine
individual(s) at the end of the assembly line who painstakenly checked
each and every machine for complete ground continuity before it was
shipped to you.

In my area, the only requirement for a licensed electrician is at a
service entrance set, and no permit is required to run a circuit
inside your house.

I don't know about your insurance policy, but mine does not have a
clause where I promise to hire an electrician, disallowing the policy
if I don't.

Frank

Better you should ask a contingency-fee attorney. Of course its not the
"norm," but if you re-work your home's electrical service and sell it to
someone who dies in a fire blamed on your wiring, you can bet the attorney's
will be looking at the depth of your pockets.

And don't take legal advice from a real estate broker - they aren't even
allowed to write purchase and sale contracts!

All we (those of us urging prudence, code compliance and completeness) are
doing istryng to give OP the best advice possible. we are talking the
difference of less than twenty-cents per foot for a host of reasons the
least of which might well be his eventual liability exposure.

I grant you that the device will operate if he only pulls two blue twelve
gauge conductors across the room and staple them to the floor joists rather
than enclose them in EMT or the equivalent.

But I wouldn't do it that way nor advise another to take that minimalist
route to wire shop or home.



"Leon" wrote in message
et...

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...



And... who is liable for damages if there is a house fire? Here it
comes...
THE INSURANCE COMPANY. Please explain how the home owner is going to
liable
for wiring a saw with 10/2 with a ground? He's not. Even if he wires it
wrong and sells the house, he's not liable. Geeze...


That is correct. My insurance man filled me in on that and a real estate
friend concurred.

"resrfglc" wrote in message
news:Tdifh.4241$495.1629@trnddc06...


Do it to "code" and you will not be sorry.

Please cite the code that calls for 10/3. Code is quite happy with 10/2.
This is the second time you've referenced "code". Do you know what the code
says?


I know the cost of wire is nuts nowadays, but the old rule "do it right
the
first time" has proven itself may times over to be the best advice.


And right would be 10/2.

--

-Mike-

"resrfglc" wrote in message
news:Udifh.4242$495.840@trnddc06...
One other point: Insurance.

If there's a fire, etc. and the investigation uncovers your home-brew
cost-saving electrical work, your insurance company can simply deny your
claim because you promised them you would never install electrical without
a
permit, licensed contractor and appropriate inspections.


Bull****.

A missing neutral would be hard to disguise!

There is not "missing neutral". You need to quit giving advice on things
you don't know.


--

-Mike-

"resrfglc" wrote in message
news:W6ofh.530$yZ4.186@trnddc05...


Let's leave it at: "If your house burned down as a result of an electrical
fire, would call you all the insurer and advise that you had installed the
suspected circuit?"


Yup - and I would be perfectly comfortable having them or any other
inspector look at it. Unlike you, some of us actually know what we are
doing with electricity.

--

-Mike-

"resrfglc" wrote in message
news:W6ofh.531$yZ4.255@trnddc05...
Better you should ask a contingency-fee attorney. Of course its not the
"norm," but if you re-work your home's electrical service and sell it to
someone who dies in a fire blamed on your wiring, you can bet the
attorney's
will be looking at the depth of your pockets.

And don't take legal advice from a real estate broker - they aren't even
allowed to write purchase and sale contracts!

Instead we should take legal and electrical advice from you?????



All we (those of us urging prudence, code compliance and completeness) are
doing istryng to give OP the best advice possible. we are talking the
difference of less than twenty-cents per foot for a host of reasons the
least of which might well be his eventual liability exposure.

You have not given the OP any advice that is compliant with NEC yet. So,
your point is...?


I grant you that the device will operate if he only pulls two blue twelve
gauge conductors across the room and staple them to the floor joists
rather
than enclose them in EMT or the equivalent.

But I wouldn't do it that way nor advise another to take that minimalist
route to wire shop or home.


I get it - you're trying to be a comedian in this thread. Phew! You really
had me going for a while. Hell - I thought you were serious with your other
posts in this thread.


--

-Mike-

In article ,
Toller wrote:
Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.




If I was installing a new circuit I'd definitely go with the 10/3,
reason being that the trend these days is for more and more equipment
to have electronics, CPUs, etc. and while manufacturers _could_ design
the power supplies for these items to run from 240, it would be
cheaper for them to use the more common 120V power supplies. Plus,
with 120 at the equipment, you have more flexibility in adding work
lights, accessories (power feeder maybe?) and using 120V coils in
mag switches, etc.

That said, I must say that almost all of my stuff is used and
personally I don't foresee getting any of that "new fangloed"
equipment in my lifetime.

Just curious, though, does the Sawstop saw require 240V with neutral?


--
For every complicated, difficult problem, there is a simple, easy
solution that does not work.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland -

In article ,
Swingman wrote:

"Robatoy" wrote in message

Swingman wrote:


... and joint that sumbitch while you're at it!


Well, yeah... always joint everything. It is bad not to joint.

I'm still trying to figure out if I want a left tilt or a right tilt
saw.

Keep in mind that if you have a left tilt saw, you need a right tilt jointer
to keep things complementary.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06



I'm holding out for the ambidextrous dual-tilt model.

--
For every complicated, difficult problem, there is a simple, easy
solution that does not work.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland -

In article . com,
Andy Dingley wrote:

Robatoy wrote:

The very basic reason for that, is the attainable rpm of either 2 or 4
pole generators.

What does any of that have to do with the use of 3 phase transmission,
or 3 phase transformers?


Or with running a 240V circuit in your basement?

--
For every complicated, difficult problem, there is a simple, easy
solution that does not work.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland -

In article Udifh.4242$495.840@trnddc06,
resrfglc wrote:
One other point: Insurance.

If there's a fire, etc. and the investigation uncovers your home-brew
cost-saving electrical work, your insurance company can simply deny your
claim because you promised them you would never install electrical without a
permit, licensed contractor and appropriate inspections.



Oh, yeah, and I'm sure the insurance companies refuse to pay when
you've plugged too many devices into your extension cord, like you
promised you wouldn't too.

I've read and re-read my homeowners policy and while some of the fine
print is quite "amusing", damn if I can find that clause about not
paying if the wiring is not up to code.


--
For every complicated, difficult problem, there is a simple, easy
solution that does not work.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland -

Doug Miller wrote:

Ground it to your planer sled.


Planer sleds take too long to use.

Robatoy wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out if I want a left tilt or a right tilt
saw.

Important, as we want to ground the correct side. Otherwise, the
electrons may not fit down the wire.

In article , B A R R Y wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Ground it to your planer sled.


Planer sleds take too long to use.

But you won't need a jointer.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , B A R R Y wrote:
Robatoy wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out if I want a left tilt or a right tilt
saw.

Important, as we want to ground the correct side. Otherwise, the
electrons may not fit down the wire.

Or, even worse, they'll fall out the wrong end.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , B A R R Y wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
Ground it to your planer sled.

Planer sleds take too long to use.

But you won't need a jointer.


_I_ have a jointer, but was asking for the benefit of those who don't.
We don't want to see any electricutions!

Doug Miller wrote:

Or, even worse, they'll fall out the wrong end.



Upside down electrons have reverse polarity!

In article , B A R R Y wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Or, even worse, they'll fall out the wrong end.

Upside down electrons have reverse polarity!

Does that make your meter spin backward, so the power company has to pay you?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:

Does that make your meter spin backward, so the power company has to pay you?


That's it! The retirement program I've been looking for!

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , B A R R Y wrote:
Robatoy wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out if I want a left tilt or a right tilt
saw.

Important, as we want to ground the correct side. Otherwise, the
electrons may not fit down the wire.

Or, even worse, they'll fall out the wrong end.

Have you ever tried to sweep those?
The only thing that sweeps fallen electricals is an oscilloscoop.

"resrfglc" wrote in message
news:W6ofh.531$yZ4.255@trnddc05...
Better you should ask a contingency-fee attorney. Of course its not the
"norm," but if you re-work your home's electrical service and sell it to
someone who dies in a fire blamed on your wiring, you can bet the
attorney's will be looking at the depth of your pockets.

Nope, not liable just like you are not liable if you sell your car and the
new owner wrecks it. The owner is making the decision to buy your house and
has every opportunity to inspect or have it inspected before closing.
Unless stipulations are noted, houses are sold "as is".

"Leon" wrote in message

Nope, not liable just like you are not liable if you sell your car and the
new owner wrecks it. The owner is making the decision to buy your house
and
has every opportunity to inspect or have it inspected before closing.
Unless stipulations are noted, houses are sold "as is".

Except for "new" houses, at least in Texas.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 02:04:38 GMT, "resrfglc"
wrote:

"clause where I promise to hire an electrician"

No, its not likely to be so clearly identifiable in the small print. But
they are rife with exculpation clauses. So is your mortgage agreement.
Basically, they are not insuring against your failure to do things properly,
follow the codes, etc.

I'll bet you have never read your insurance policy or mortgage agreement all
the way through. Not being a smart-ass here, but trying to make thepoint
that it is best to build in right and bulletproof the first time out for a
number of reasons not necessarily limited to insurance, liability and so
forth,
Since I've seen this troll on several usenet sites, I decided I would
read my policy cover to cover to discern the accuracy of the
statement. Not there.

And you don't have to be a licensed electrician to wire by the code.
You just have to know the code.


Let's leave it at: "If your house burned down as a result of an electrical
fire, would call you all the insurer and advise that you had installed the
suspected circuit?"


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:12:02 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.



If there are no 120 accessory items on the machine.

However, as one who is at this very moment lamenting the fact that he
did not plan ahead and pull what he should have pulled when he
originally built his shop, and now to expand it will have to pull
again, knowing it would have been just as easy and not much more cost
to pull more than one would need, my advice in that area should be
predictable (as I slap my head in dismay).

But:

You do not need a grounded conductor if you do not have any
requirement for it on the machine.

You DO need a grounding conductor. You're health and well being might
require it. Additionally, you will negate the work of that fine
individual(s) at the end of the assembly line who painstakenly checked
each and every machine for complete ground continuity before it was
shipped to you.

In my area, the only requirement for a licensed electrician is at a
service entrance set, and no permit is required to run a circuit
inside your house.

I don't know about your insurance policy, but mine does not have a
clause where I promise to hire an electrician, disallowing the policy
if I don't.

Frank

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:10:45 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:


"resrfglc" wrote in message
news:txifh.4246$495.2153@trnddc06...


If you "fix" your wiring to do otherwise, none of the safety measures
designed into the product may save your home or ass as intended.

an your insurance is voided

Wrong.

and your liability is (neighbor's house catches fire) is 100%.

Wrong.


I think we may both be feeding the troll.

Frank

Robatoy wrote:


Have you ever tried to sweep those?
The only thing that sweeps fallen electricals is an oscilloscoop.

I get a charge out of that!

In article ,
B A R R Y wrote:

Robatoy wrote:


Have you ever tried to sweep those?
The only thing that sweeps fallen electricals is an oscilloscoop.

I get a charge out of that!

Did you hear the one about the two atoms walking down the street? One says
to the other, "I think I lost an electron". "Are you sure?", asks the
other. "Yes, I'm positive".