Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.

In article , "Toller" wrote:
Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?

It's fair to say that all 240V equipment that doesn't also have 120V loads
doesn't need a neutral.

IME, big iron woodworking equipment consists, electrically, of a motor and a
switch.

240V motors don't need a neutral.

I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.

As long as 10ga wire, and a 30A breaker, are appropriate for the load, you're
good to go with 10/2 -- but consider that 10/3 would provide the ability to
add 120V receptacles later if you need them.

Another thought might be to pull three individual conductors (red, black, and
green) through conduit, instead of running cable. Then if you ever need a
neutral in the future, pull a white wire through too.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Toller wrote:
Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.

I assume you are talking about 10/2 WITH GROUND. You don't need a
neutral, but you definitely need a ground.

DonkeyHody

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message

Toller wrote:
Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than
10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.

I assume you are talking about 10/2 WITH GROUND. You don't need a
neutral, but you definitely need a ground.

Now, if you can convince my framing and trim crews of that, who routinely
use two wires with NO plug to run their 220v equipment, my hat will be off
to you!

And for the OP ... In the sense that 220/240 equipment will work without a
ground wire (just a hot from each leg is all that is "needed" to function),
you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.

BUT, and it's a BIG but, you will surely want to have a ground, if for
nothing else but code compliance and safety.

The neutral is not used for 220/240v unless the equipment needs 115v
internally for timers, lights, etc ... not something normally found in
woodworking shop equipment.

Now, we sit back and wait for the flames to start ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

Toller wrote:
Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.

Most doesn't need neutral. However, consider a 240V bandsaw with a 120V
work-light on it. You could rig this up to run off a single plug, but
you would need a neutral. (Basically the same scenario as an electric
kitchen stove.)

That said, it would probably be cheaper to run 10/2 and 14/2 and provide
two receptacles rather than running 10/3.

Chris

In article . com, "DonkeyHody" wrote:

Toller wrote:
Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.

I assume you are talking about 10/2 WITH GROUND. You don't need a
neutral, but you definitely need a ground.

That pretty much goes without saying... I think you'd have a pretty tough time
buying 10/2, or anything else, withOUT ground, even if you tried. Certainly
all of the 14, 12, and 10-ga cables that the home center stores carry have a
ground.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Toller wrote:
Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.

You can use 10/2... on most breaker boxes, the ground and white wire
are connected to the same bus anyhow.. You only need 10/3 for something
like a 4 prong dryer plug.

Chris Friesen wrote:

Toller wrote:
Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.

Most doesn't need neutral. However, consider a 240V bandsaw with a 120V
work-light on it. You could rig this up to run off a single plug, but
you would need a neutral. (Basically the same scenario as an electric
kitchen stove.)

That said, it would probably be cheaper to run 10/2 and 14/2 and provide
two receptacles rather than running 10/3.

Or, cheaper yet, buy a 240-volt bulb. That's what my bandsaw has, but
I've never replaced it--are they hard to find?

Chris

--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

bf wrote:

You can use 10/2... on most breaker boxes, the ground and white wire
are connected to the same bus anyhow.. You only need 10/3 for something
like a 4 prong dryer plug.

The safety ground is there for a reason...you really don't want to be
running current through it on a normal basis, especially when it may be
connected to the metal equipment body.

As mentioned earlier, if the 240V equipment has any 120V accessories on
it, then you need 3-conductor wire and a 4-prong plug. (Or two separate
plugs.)

Chris

On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:07:07 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

Now, if you can convince my framing and trim crews of that, who routinely
use two wires with NO plug to run their 220v equipment, my hat will be off
to you!

You only have to fry one of them in front of the others really, the
message will get across. ;P

Markem
(sixoneeight) = 618

Toller wrote:

Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?

Not in most of the World, that's for certain.

In article m, "Andy Dingley " wrote:

Toller wrote:

Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?

Not in most of the World, that's for certain.

LOL! Good point. We know Toller's in the US, though.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:

That pretty much goes without saying... I think you'd have a pretty tough time
buying 10/2, or anything else, withOUT ground, even if you tried. Certainly
all of the 14, 12, and 10-ga cables that the home center stores carry have a
ground.

OK, maybe my point was unnecessary. My point was not about the
importance of buying the right wire, but hooking up the ground. It's
really no different from wiring anything else he might be hooking up.
I'm just anal about grounding. And GFCI. And a lot of other things you
can get by with for ten thousand times before it kills you on ten
thousand and one. I just don't feel nearly as immortal as I once did.

DonkeyHody
"I woke up on the right side of the grass again this morning."

alexy wrote:
Chris Friesen wrote:

That said, it would probably be cheaper to run 10/2 and 14/2 and provide
two receptacles rather than running 10/3.

Or, cheaper yet, buy a 240-volt bulb. That's what my bandsaw has, but
I've never replaced it--are they hard to find?

Yep, probably that's the best bet for a task light. I have no idea how
hard they are to get...but they don't show up at my favorite tool store
or at Home Depot.

Might have to go to a lighting supplier.

Chris

Swingman wrote:
[snipped for brevity]

Now, we sit back and wait for the flames to start ...


*smacking my forehead on my desk*

OH NOES!!!, Not THIS farking topic again????

As an EE, my philosophy is very simple: If you need to be asking
questions like that, you shouldn't be screwing with it. And to even
THINK about whether to use a ground or not is simply beyond me.
I have seen accident reports and photographs come across my
desk--------220 can bite your ass big time, blow off a few fingers
if you're really lucky and the juice doesn't go from one hand via your
chest anywhere. That 220 will kill you.You will not be pining, you'll
pass on. You will be no more. You will have ceased to be. Expired and
gone to meet your maker. You'll be a stiff. Bereft of life, you'll rest
in peace.........

I think the stock answer, here in the Wreck, should be: "GET AN
ELECTRICIAN!"

And while the electrician is there, have him run some ground wires on
your dust collector.


ok..my bad..


r

"Robatoy" wrote in message

I think the stock answer, here in the Wreck, should be: "GET AN
ELECTRICIAN!"

And while the electrician is there, have him run some ground wires on
your dust collector.


ok..my bad..

.... and joint that sumbitch while you're at it!

BTW, there is, or used to be, an "Electrical FAQ" posted here periodically
back in the much kinder, gentler days of the _real men wooddorkers_ of yo

ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.a...l-wiring/part1
ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.a...l-wiring/part2

Don't know if it is still valid cuz one of the necessary qualifications for
the previously mentioned wooddorkers was having the (kinder, gentler) time
to read through it.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

In article ,
Toller wrote:
Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without neutrals?

Anything that has just a 240V motor does not need a neutral. But
accessories such as lights do. As electronic controls on tools will
become more common, I would expect more of them to need neutrals.

Just because you run 4-wire cable does not mean you have to install
the much more expensive 4-wire outlets; those can be retrofitted when
needed.

Side remark: What everyone calls neutral (on a 120/240V circuit), the
electrical code calls the grounded conductor. What everyone calls
ground, the electrical code calls the grounding conductur. The
difference is small, but crucial.

I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.

If you don't want to do it twice, then run 10/3 (with ground!) now.
Even better, in a few places where you might want to add high-powered
tools (such as a 5HP table saw), run 8-3 instead; the cost is only a
little higher. Ideally, you should run conduit (3/4" EMT is better,
as it is easier to pull #10 and #8 wires through it); but installing
conduit in an existing stud wall is a big pain, and flexible conduit
is really hard to pull through. While you are at it, terminate all
240V cables in extra-deep metal 2-gang boxes (not plastic), with mud
rings. Then you can later replace the single-gang mud ring with a
2-gang mud ring, and install larger outlets: trying to squeeze a 50A
4-wire 240V outlet into a single-gang box is either impossible or very
hard, and certainly violates code.

"bf" wrote:
You can use 10/2... on most breaker boxes, the ground and white wire
are connected to the same bus anyhow.. You only need 10/3 for
something like a 4 prong dryer plug.

If you mean by this that you can use 10/2 with ground wire, and then
at the device end use the ground as both a neutral and a ground, you
are absolutely wrong. Yes, they may be connected at the breaker box,
but by no means on all breaker boxes (read the electrical code, in
many cases they have to be isolated from each other). Deliberately
running current through the safety grounding wire is extremely
dangerous, bordering on suicidal. Extremely bad advice.

While we are at it: I would recommend GFCIs for everything in a shop,
in particular if the shop has a concrete floor, is in a basement, or
has any risk of getting wet. 2-pole 220V GFCI breakers for the
electrical panel are inexpensive and easy to find.

--
The address in the header is invalid for obvious reasons. Please
reconstruct the address from the information below (look for _).
Ralph Becker-Szendy

Robatoy wrote:
ou will not be pining, you'll
pass on. You will be no more. You will have ceased to be. Expired and
gone to meet your maker. You'll be a stiff. Bereft of life, you'll rest
in peace.........

And you won't even be a parrot.

Swingman wrote:

you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.

What if it's a dust collector?

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
Swingman wrote:

you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.

What if it's a dust collector?

No problem ... ground it to the jointer.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

Don't skimp. Do it "Right" the first time. Use 10/3 with ground and be safe;
safer; ready for change, not sorry.

Also, the circuit can be used to pull a 110/120 outlet as well.

Do it to "code" and you will not be sorry.

I know the cost of wire is nuts nowadays, but the old rule "do it right the
first time" has proven itself may times over to be the best advice.


"Toller" wrote in message
...
Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.

One other point: Insurance.

If there's a fire, etc. and the investigation uncovers your home-brew
cost-saving electrical work, your insurance company can simply deny your
claim because you promised them you would never install electrical without a
permit, licensed contractor and appropriate inspections.

A missing neutral would be hard to disguise!

"Toller" wrote in message
...
Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.

Swingman wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message
Swingman wrote:

you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.
What if it's a dust collector?

No problem ... ground it to the jointer.



What if I don't have a jointer?

"resrfglc" wrote in message
news:Udifh.4242$495.840@trnddc06...
One other point: Insurance.

If there's a fire, etc. and the investigation uncovers your home-brew
cost-saving electrical work, your insurance company can simply deny your
claim because you promised them you would never install electrical without
a permit, licensed contractor and appropriate inspections.

A missing neutral would be hard to disguise!


But if code doesn't require it and it isn't connected to anything...
What on earth is home-brew about it?

wrote in message
s.com...

Toller wrote:

Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
neutrals?

Not in most of the World, that's for certain.

Really? In countries where the base voltage, how many wires do they have?
I would think a hot, a grounded, and a grounding. What would a "neutral" be
used for?

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
Swingman wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message
Swingman wrote:

you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.
What if it's a dust collector?

No problem ... ground it to the jointer.

What if I don't have a jointer?

No problem ... use one of those wrist thingy's, attach it next to your
electronic ankle bracelet, and ground it to your computer.

We know damn well you have a computer!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

Good point. We don't know what may be connected down the road, neitherdoes
he. And, if the fire occurs to someone he sold the house to - guess who is
liable for damages?


"B A R R Y" wrote in message
t...
Swingman wrote:

you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.

What if it's a dust collector?

Nope, not at all. Go price the wire.

One should always run the most robust line one can afford and that can carry
the intended load and a bit more.

And one should always consider safety and follow Electrical Codes to the
letter.


"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
...
Toller wrote:
Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.

Most doesn't need neutral. However, consider a 240V bandsaw with a 120V
work-light on it. You could rig this up to run off a single plug, but you
would need a neutral. (Basically the same scenario as an electric kitchen
stove.)

That said, it would probably be cheaper to run 10/2 and 14/2 and provide
two receptacles rather than running 10/3.

Chris

Why not simply re-wire the bulb socket to attach one side to the neutral and
run a 120VAC bulb?

Better than cursing the darkness, no?



"alexy" wrote in message
...
Chris Friesen wrote:

Toller wrote:
Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than
10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.

Most doesn't need neutral. However, consider a 240V bandsaw with a 120V
work-light on it. You could rig this up to run off a single plug, but
you would need a neutral. (Basically the same scenario as an electric
kitchen stove.)

That said, it would probably be cheaper to run 10/2 and 14/2 and provide
two receptacles rather than running 10/3.

Or, cheaper yet, buy a 240-volt bulb. That's what my bandsaw has, but
I've never replaced it--are they hard to find?

Chris

--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked
infrequently.

You are confusing physical and electrical "You only need 10/3 for something
like a 4 prong dryer plug. " and practice with CODE.

The "GROUND (bare copper) is the mechanical ground. The White, neutral is
the Electrical ground.

Remember, every electrical appliance or tool you purchase is designed and
built upon the assumption that it will be powered up in an APPROVED MANNER
that meets the Standard Electrical Code.

If you "fix" your wiring to do otherwise, none of the safety measures
designed into the product may save your home or ass as intended.

And the manufacturer escapes all liability an your insurance is voided and
your liability is (neighbor's house catches fire) is 100%.

For this you want to save $23.00?


"bf" wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.

You can use 10/2... on most breaker boxes, the ground and white wire
are connected to the same bus anyhow.. You only need 10/3 for something
like a 4 prong dryer plug.

"Swingman" made this timely comment

BTW, there is, or used to be, an "Electrical FAQ" posted here periodically
back in the much kinder, gentler days of the _real men wooddorkers_ of
yo

ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.a...l-wiring/part1
ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.a...l-wiring/part2

Don't know if it is still valid cuz one of the necessary qualifications
for
the previously mentioned wooddorkers was having the (kinder, gentler) time
to read through it.

Maybe if you serve up some of that famous family gumbo and a few cold
brewski's, we will just mellow right out!!

"But if code doesn't require it and "

CODES DO REQUIRE IT. Call your County Electrical Inspector. Or, better yet,
google National Fire & Electrical Codes or similar)


"Toller" wrote in message
...

"resrfglc" wrote in message
news:Udifh.4242$495.840@trnddc06...
One other point: Insurance.

If there's a fire, etc. and the investigation uncovers your home-brew
cost-saving electrical work, your insurance company can simply deny your
claim because you promised them you would never install electrical
without a permit, licensed contractor and appropriate inspections.

A missing neutral would be hard to disguise!


But if code doesn't require it and it isn't connected to anything...
What on earth is home-brew about it?

"Toller" wrote in message


"resrfglc" wrote in message

One other point: Insurance.

If there's a fire, etc. and the investigation uncovers your home-brew
cost-saving electrical work, your insurance company can simply deny your
claim because you promised them you would never install electrical
without
a permit, licensed contractor and appropriate inspections.

A missing neutral would be hard to disguise!


But if code doesn't require it and it isn't connected to anything...
What on earth is home-brew about it?

Hush now, and be a good wooddorker ... we're in the presence of superior
insurance/electrical dorkiness.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

http://www.mikeholt.com/index.php?id=homegeneral

Take the time to check this expert web site for a definitive answer
for e-mail questions.


"Toller" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
s.com...

Toller wrote:

Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
neutrals?

Not in most of the World, that's for certain.

Really? In countries where the base voltage, how many wires do they have?
I would think a hot, a grounded, and a grounding. What would a "neutral"
be used for?

http://www.mikeholt.com/index.php?id=homegeneral

Take the time to check this expert web site for a definitive answer
for e-mail questions.


"Toller" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
s.com...

Toller wrote:

Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
neutrals?

Not in most of the World, that's for certain.

Really? In countries where the base voltage, how many wires do they have?
I would think a hot, a grounded, and a grounding. What would a "neutral"
be used for?

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message

Maybe if you serve up some of that famous family gumbo and a few cold
brewski's, we will just mellow right out!!

Easy for you to say ... it's hard to be mellow when you don't smoke or drink
beer any longer and you have to chop all those damn vegetables!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

resrfglc wrote:
One other point: Insurance.

If there's a fire, etc. and the investigation uncovers your home-brew
cost-saving electrical work, your insurance company can simply deny your
claim because you promised them you would never install electrical without a
permit, licensed contractor and appropriate inspections.

A missing neutral would be hard to disguise!

If you've got 240V equipment with no 120V accessories, then there's no
reason to have a neutral.

For a pure 240V load you have two hots and a grounding conductor (aka
"ground"). No neutral is needed or required by code.

The only time you need a grounded conductor (aka "neutral") is when you
have unbalanced loads on the two hots. This is only the case if you
have a mix of 120/240V devices on that circuit.

Chris

In article , B A R R Y wrote:
Swingman wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message
Swingman wrote:

you don't "need" a ground for the equipment to work.
What if it's a dust collector?

No problem ... ground it to the jointer.



What if I don't have a jointer?

Ground it to your planer sled.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article Udifh.4242$495.840@trnddc06, "resrfglc" wrote:
One other point: Insurance.

If there's a fire, etc. and the investigation uncovers your home-brew
cost-saving electrical work, your insurance company can simply deny your
claim because you promised them you would never install electrical without a
permit, licensed contractor and appropriate inspections.

This comes up about once a month, it seems, in alt.home.repair. So far,
nobody has been able to substantiate an instance of this actually happening.
Maybe you can be the first.

In any event, what he's proposing to do isn't hazardous in the least.

A missing neutral would be hard to disguise!

He doesn't *need* a neutral for a 240V motor.

"Toller" wrote in message
...
Is it fair to say that all 240v woodworking equipment runs without
neutrals?
I am running a new circuit and would prefer to use 10/2 rather than 10/3;
but sure don't want to do it twice.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article 9Cifh.1120$IO5.493@trnddc01, "resrfglc" wrote:
"But if code doesn't require it and "

CODES DO REQUIRE IT. Call your County Electrical Inspector. Or, better yet,
google National Fire & Electrical Codes or similar)

Code DOES NOT require a neutral supplying a pure 240V load.

If you think it does... cite the relevant article.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.