wrote in message
his participation here proves that he is every bit as passionate
about his company and its products as I am about mine. The difference
is that he doesn't do it for survival.


Sure he does.

I can't handle this bickering and arguing over $170 or so worth of
equipment. This is rediculous. I asked a simple question and then it
turned into flaming. I've gone through other threads over instrument
alignment and I can't believe how people still go back and forth with
Ed Bennett over his TS-Aligner. In some sense I think it's their being
irked by his refusing to give an inch. But, people, consider this.
Whether you agree or disagree with his methods the man is still doing
something that many find immensely valuable and helpful. That process,
as woodworkers, should be what we strive for. OK, there are other
methods to get the same results, but Bennett never says otherwise. He
tells the truth, tries to help people, is productive and makes a
product that obviously have value. Why take shots at the guy over
semantics and technique? In fact, when have all the bashers made a
decent product that a single woodworker can attest to by saying, 'that
helped me'? If we're going to argue with anyone about anything it
shouldn't be someone who's really working to make the world a better
place and not hurting anyone in the process. You don't have to buy the
TS Aligner but you don't have to knock a man for trying to make things
easier for the rest of his fellow workers. If anything, shouldn't we
be mad as hell about the tool manufacturers who contract all their work
to be done in Chinese sweatshops and pretend to the American public
that they're still getting the same quality they used to get in 1950?
Or how about the fact that public high schools make education regarding
hand made crafts (wood and metal working) seem like a second class
education fit only for criminals- even though much of what we gain
through science and industry is based upon it?

I think those who bash Ed really need to step back, have a beer (or
wine or water or whatever makes them take it easy) and refocus. We
have a common interest. Why make things painful for those who want to
help it along?

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
wrote in message
his participation here proves that he is every bit as passionate
about his company and its products as I am about mine. The difference
is that he doesn't do it for survival.


Sure he does.

I think he does far better than survive! There are thousands of
dealers and manufacturers who have absolutely no presence in this
group. They still survive. Rob is here because he wants to be here.
It really is proof of his passion for the business. I'm hard pressed
to think of any other corporate officer from any other retail company
who is willing to deal directly with customers. In general, they just
like to move in, rape the company for gazillions of dollars of
unjustified salary and bonuses, and then bail out with a golden
parachute a few years later.

I have no trouble saying that the wreck is vital to my survival. Not
just for sales (which doesn't amount to much), but for a lot of market
research, honest feedback, dishonest feedback, product ideas, etc. I
can't afford to pay a market research firm for this information. Heck,
I can't even afford to pay anybody to clean the toilet for me! But, I
can show my appreciation to the group by sharing technical expertise
and offering the annual specials. It's ironic, the people who resent
my presence the most tend to provide me with the best information.

If I didn't have a passion for this, I would go back to making money
for a living.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

"Chrisgiraffe" wrote in
oups.com:

I can't handle this bickering and arguing over $170 or so worth of
equipment. This is rediculous. I asked a simple question and then it
turned into flaming. I've gone through other threads over instrument
alignment and I can't believe how people still go back and forth with
Ed Bennett over his TS-Aligner. In some sense I think it's their being
irked by his refusing to give an inch. But, people, consider this.
Whether you agree or disagree with his methods the man is still doing
something that many find immensely valuable and helpful. That process,
as woodworkers, should be what we strive for. OK, there are other
methods to get the same results, but Bennett never says otherwise. He
tells the truth, tries to help people, is productive and makes a
product that obviously have value. Why take shots at the guy over
semantics and technique? In fact, when have all the bashers made a
decent product that a single woodworker can attest to by saying, 'that
helped me'? If we're going to argue with anyone about anything it
shouldn't be someone who's really working to make the world a better
place and not hurting anyone in the process. You don't have to buy the
TS Aligner but you don't have to knock a man for trying to make things
easier for the rest of his fellow workers. If anything, shouldn't we
be mad as hell about the tool manufacturers who contract all their work
to be done in Chinese sweatshops and pretend to the American public
that they're still getting the same quality they used to get in 1950?
Or how about the fact that public high schools make education regarding
hand made crafts (wood and metal working) seem like a second class
education fit only for criminals- even though much of what we gain
through science and industry is based upon it?

I think those who bash Ed really need to step back, have a beer (or
wine or water or whatever makes them take it easy) and refocus. We
have a common interest. Why make things painful for those who want to
help it along?



I didn't bash Ed; can I still have a beer or a single-malt? I'll even
step back.

On 24 Nov 2006 11:00:57 -0800, wrote:

Hi Prometheus,

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you on this. Here's an
example of a home-made jig that works OK.

http://benchmark.20m.com/articles/Se...nerKnives.html

I've seen a few magazine articles showing similar jigs. The only
commercial jig that I could locate on the web is from a vendor which
I've had some really bad experience with. So, I'm not inclined to
recommend it to anybody.

Thanks Ed-

That bit about sanding the set screws flat might just be the most
useful part. Looks like the jig should work, I'll make a pair out of
aluminum the next time I've got a real slow day.

On 24 Nov 2006 16:43:17 -0800, wrote:

Rather than reply to each and every point, maybe I can just summarize
some of the themes here.

Snipped for brevity

No disagreement on any particular point- At this point, I'm conceding
the value of using the methods you're advocating in the shop, and was
just trying to walk you through the other point of view, in case you
had forgotten it in the pursuit of your methods.

Some minor comments:

You might be surprised at how much fine cabinetmaking occurs during
the install- and it's often the hardest part of the job. One example-
scribing the back edge of a cabinet to mate to a brick wall. Takes a
good deal of technique to get it right!

This isn't cabinetmaking! And, it's not cabinetmaking to build a
plywood carcass and apply some factory made doors and drawers.
Scribing cabinets to walls does require some skill but it's not like
making fine furniture.

While scribing the back to fit the wall may not be cabinet making in
and of itself, in a smaller operation, it's still the cabinetmaker's
job, and is a large and visible part of the overall project. And
having made plenty of "fine" furniture using traditional joinery and
solid planks, I'd still say that scribing to a rough wall is usually
harder than any particular internal joint, including hand cut
dovetails and m&t joints.

And while I'd love to agree with you that building a plywood carcass
and applying factory made doors and drawers is not cabinetmaking, I
can't. Step back and look at your total argument for a minute- you're
falling into the same error you've accused others of in this
particular case. I have limited respect for the cabinetmakers that
slap together carcasses out of plywood with pocket screws and mount
other peoples' doors and drawers on them, but that is a matter of
economics in a lot of shops- it's that same old march of progress that
you can love or leave, and it applies just as easily to the finished
woodwork as it does to the shop setup.

Making plywood boxes is 99% of the job for most cabinetmakers these
days. I'm sure that there are plenty that do things the old way, but
for every one of them, there are twenty (or more) that whack together
mdf boxes and push them out the door as fast as they can- they're
still cabinetmakers, because (drumroll....) they make cabinets. You
can't redefine the term to only include the ones who make the stuff
you like.

Is it fine furniture making? I can't even really make that call- I've
seen some really expensive antiques that anyone would consider "fine
furniture"- but when you turn them around, the back is made from old
barn boards nailed into place. Using an engineered substrate is not
terribly different, provided the joinery is still well-excuted and the
veneers and finishes are attractive.

It's kind of like the difference between needing
glasses and having perfect vision- or a musician who uses sheet music
to learn a new tune verses the guy who can play it perfectly after
hearing it once. In any case, anyone can achieve the same result as
someone else, but they may need to take different paths to get there.

The guy who plays by ear should recognize that there are some
disadvantages to being musically illiterate. The person who has poor
vision should also recognize the disadvantages of not getting it
corrected. I look at it more like the "machinist" who aligns his vise
using test cuts. The guy is wasting a whole bunch of time and
materials because he just can't recognize the disadvantages in avoiding
the use of an indicator. Same is true with the woodworker who insists
on trial and error.

Well, sure- but that was my point. If you have 20/20 vision, there's
no need for the glasses.

Here again, you've got this notion that everyone is insisting on trial
and error, and not acknowledging that an alternate approach may work
just as well, without being a half-assed way of going about things.

As an example, on Tuesday I was making a part for myself (a metal
spinning toolpost for the lathe) that required nine holes (as I had
drafted it) each centered on the y axis, and equidistant from one
another and the ends. When I jumped on the mill, I found that someone
on day shift had dropped a vise on the indicator and smashed it.

Rather than skipping the project until a new indicator arrived, I
squared the vise by using the edge finder on both sides of the back
jaw of the vise. There was no "test cutting" involved, and the total
deviation between the first hole and the last was less than .001" over
a run of nine inches. It took a few extra minutes, but it did the job
just the same. Without the indicator- and without trial and error.
What it did require was the trade skill of using an edge finder to
determine relative squareness mechanically- just as other trade skills
can be used to setup machines using things along the lines of a square
and a set of feeler guages. Hell, I even sharpened the bit I used for
the drilling freehand- because it took less time than setting up the
sharpening jig.

There was no waste of material in the project, and a minimal waste of
time that could not be avoided.


Very true, if a person could "eyeball" the correct setting without any
test cuts then using a dial indicator would be a waste of time. That
would be the epitome of skill, right? But, that's not what we are
discussing. Everyone who argues against the use of dial indicators is
advocating a method which involves much more time, labor, and/or
materials. They are not advocating the "zero" test cut method or the
"trial" and no error method.

Not true, though that may be in the case of the jointer setup thread.
(I don't own a jointer, and can't make any claims about it one way or
the other.) I don't have money to waste on wood that isn't going into
the finished project, so I set up the tools to be right without using
any test cuts. From what I've read in these various threads, most
people are doing that as well- just using different tools than you are
to do so.

But, that's not what is happening here. In each and every instance I
have been extremely careful to explicitly say that there are people who
use the traditional "trial and error" methods to do excellent quality
work. I am not even arguing with the notion that dial indicators are
"not necessary". Of course they are not necessary. Everything that
can be done with a dial indicator can be done without one. And, fine
woodworking has been done for hundreds (if not thousands) of years
without dial indicators (and the same thing can be said for the
Jointer, the Planer, the Table Saw, etc.).

There's a communication block here, and it's directly centered over
the use of "trial and error". Perhaps you mean it in a manner other
than the way in which I keep reading it- what I take you to mean is
that you're envisioning people just casually tossing their machine
into a "sort of" alignment, and then making a cut, checking it,
adjusting a little, making a cut, checking it, ad nauseum. That's not
the case- in the case of setting a saw blade to 90*, a square will do
the job without that, and in the case of a jointer, I would imagine
that a straightedge would do the job of setting the knife heights
without test cuts as well.

While I have seen one or two sentiments that reflect exactly that
approach, I have to assume that you are saying that this is what I'm
advocating, as you replied to the statements I made.

The argument develops when someone falsely characterizes the use of the
dial indicator in an effort to dissuade others from using it. *They*
say that people who use dial indicators aren't craftsmen. *They* say
it's "the easy road". *They* say that using a dial indicator is
"harder", "more trouble", "difficult", "tedious", "time consuming",
cheating, etc.

*I* didn't say most of those things- the only thing that I recall
saying was that purchasing a dial indicator for home use, waiting for
it to be shipped to my house, and then making a jig to put it on
involved a lot more time and money than just using the square that is
already sitting on my saw. If I were to run to a local store to buy
one, it's far more money than it's worth to me ($38 was the low price
the last time I was at the hardware store)

But that is neither here nor there- the point I was attempting to
clarify is that for a guy that already has an adequate technique,
finding, purchasing, setting up and interpreting the measurements
returned by unfamiliar tools may well be a lot more time and effort
than using the old reliable way of doing things. From that guy's
point of view, it *is* harder, more troublesome, more difficult,
tedious and time consuming- and in the end, may result in no
measurable difference from doing it his way to begin with.

No, you may not need to sell your product to "these people"- but
wouldn't it be nice if you did?

Nope. Later on they complain to others that they bought the thing but
never use it. They make it sound as if it is not very useful but the
truth is that they were never willing to abandon their trial and error
methods. They align their saw blade and fence and never touch it
again. People who are willing to learn new things make good customers.

I guess I can understand that.

I disagree. As you've noted above, you feel that economic stresses
will inevitably cause a change in the production woodshop. If that's
the case- and there's certainly an argument for that, you don't need
to engage nay-sayers at all. The product will be it's own spokesman,
as it does the job and gets recommended.

There is some truth to this. Year after year the business grows. More
and more people appreciate better ways of doing things. But, every
year the nay-sayers become more adamant in their attempts to dissuade
others.

Well, that didn't save the coopering trade, or the thatchers, or the
blacksmiths, did it? If you've got the superior method, there's no
real problem with letting the naysayers howl away- this little corner
of the internet by no means represents even the "average" woodworker-
most of the regulars here have gone so far beyond the ken of what is
normally accepted modern tooling and technique that the average
carpenters and cabinetmakers I've met in real life regard most of the
things I've learned or discussed here the way they would some obscure
branch of ancient alchemy.

Look at the example of Lee
Valley- I've never seen Rob Lee jump in on a thread about how Amazon
has good deals to question the motives of the person who made the
statement, and they get more free advertising on this group than I
might have believed possible without seeing it firsthand. There's a
lesson to be learned in that.

OK. People make these comparisons and I have largely ignored them but
I think that this deserves a bit of attention this time. The analogy
breaks down when you look at the details. I am not arguing with people
who advocate a competitive product or idea. I'm not questioning the
motive of the guy who came up with his own dial indicator jig. Geez,
I'm supporting his use of it! I'm recommending it to others! I'm not
questioning the motives of the guy who prefers to use trial and error.
I am questioning the motive of the guy who is trying to dissuade others
from using any thing related to dial indicators (including my
products).

Granted- though I was referring more the the fact that I do not recall
ever seeing Mr. Lee actively putting down potential customers. He
could easily be jumping in on these threads and spouting off about how
a Veritas plane is better than an electric jointer, but he doesn't.
He just sells stuff that is hard to find elsewhere- as you do.

Snip of links (this post is long enough already!)

I didn't do an exhaustive search but I couldn't find a single complaint
that Rob didn't jump into the thread on. And, he's not above making
critical remarks about certain competitors and their practices. I
don't quote these to embarrass Rob; I think such action make him most
admirable and commendable. I have a lot of respect for someone who
defends the honor of their business and has enough integrity to show
his face in the wreck.

There is a fine qualitative difference between the behavior of Mr. Lee
and yours. I'm not trying to put you down- I was just making an
example of his superb aplomb when dealing with issues. I saw nothing
in the posts you linked to that compare to the issue at hand, though
everyone reads different things into the subtext. With one exception,
I've never seen a post from the guy that led to a flamewar- and the
other party in that case was really frothing to begin with.

Nor am I saying that you are poorly behaved or boorish- you're
obviously an honest guy that is passionate about what he's doing. All
I'm getting at, 110% of it, is that you are either intentially or
unintentionally insulting some people in these discussions. There are
plenty of ways to avoid that while saying exactly the same thing. If
you can keep peoples' hackles down, they're a whole lot more likely to
seriously explore what you're advocating.

Beyond all of this, Rob Lee and I are in two completely different
situations. I run a one man shop which struggles every month to make
ends meet. Rob sits on top of a multi-million dollar empire with lots
of people taking care of lots of stuff for him. He has huge resources
at his disposal and can marshal them to take care of anything for him
but his participation here proves that he is every bit as passionate
about his company and its products as I am about mine. The difference
is that he doesn't do it for survival.

Ahhhh... And how does one *build* a multi-million dollar empire? Or
maintain it?

While I'd like to think it's solely quality product and fair prices,
there's a fair amount of diplomacy involved as well.

On 24 Nov 2006 20:35:57 -0800, "Chrisgiraffe"
wrote:
If anything, shouldn't we
be mad as hell about the tool manufacturers who contract all their work
to be done in Chinese sweatshops and pretend to the American public
that they're still getting the same quality they used to get in 1950?
Or how about the fact that public high schools make education regarding
hand made crafts (wood and metal working) seem like a second class
education fit only for criminals- even though much of what we gain
through science and industry is based upon it?

Oh sure, I *am* mad at them- and not mad at Ed at all. I hope you
weren't misreading my motives.

I think those who bash Ed really need to step back, have a beer (or
wine or water or whatever makes them take it easy) and refocus. We
have a common interest. Why make things painful for those who want to
help it along?

There's a subtext you're missing here- precisely *because* of the
points you've made above, there is a very good reason to advocate
keeping the hobby accessable to everyone- and not just all becoming
cheerleaders for the latest innovation.

If a new guy jumps on this list, and begins to think that he needs
$500,000 in tools and measuring devices, a 120'x80' shop, and exotic
hardwoods to make a simple foot stool or a bird feeder, he's probably
just going to skip it all together and buy one from the discount
store. $170 is a lot of cash to some folks, myself included, and
there's plenty of value in helping people figure out how to do a nice
job with the tools they have at hand. We just need to stop trying to
figure out which one is "right", because they both are.

Hmmmm.....

I think we're going round and round in circles.

Prometheus wrote:
On 24 Nov 2006 16:43:17 -0800, wrote:
While scribing the back to fit the wall may not be cabinet making in
and of itself, in a smaller operation, it's still the cabinetmaker's
job, and is a large and visible part of the overall project.

No, it's the installer's job. Sometimes the cabinetmaker plays
"installer" because he doesn't have a dedicated installer. It may be a
very visible part to the customer, and it may be the most complex thing
done on the job site, but it's not a large part of the job. It's one
of the last things to do before bolting the cabinet to the wall.

And
having made plenty of "fine" furniture using traditional joinery and
solid planks, I'd still say that scribing to a rough wall is usually
harder than any particular internal joint, including hand cut
dovetails and m&t joints.

I wasn't saying that it was harder or easier than any other part of the
process. I was just saying that scribing to fit a wall isn't
cabinetmaking. In fact, it's not "making" anything. The cabinet is
all made. Scribing is an installation task.

And while I'd love to agree with you that building a plywood carcass
and applying factory made doors and drawers is not cabinetmaking, I
can't.

It's really "cabinet assembly".

Step back and look at your total argument for a minute- you're
falling into the same error you've accused others of in this
particular case.

No, I'm not. And, I think that this is a very revealing point. I'm
saying that a person who pays someone else to do 90% of the
cabinetmaking job (doors and drawers) doesn't deserve credit for doing
the whole job. I recognize that there is room for differing opinions.

If you believe that this is analogous to the indicator vs traditional
methods discussion, then you must feel that 90% of woodworking is
setting up the machines. And, you would have to believe that using a
dial indicator is like paying someone else to do the setup for you
(i.e. "cheating").

I have limited respect for the cabinetmakers that
slap together carcasses out of plywood with pocket screws and mount
other peoples' doors and drawers on them, but that is a matter of
economics in a lot of shops- it's that same old march of progress that
you can love or leave, and it applies just as easily to the finished
woodwork as it does to the shop setup.

Sure. Finished cabinets can be delivered at a very competitive price
if factory made doors and drawers are used. But, those who don't have
the skills and equipment to make doors and drawers can't be regarded as
equals with those that do.

Making plywood boxes is 99% of the job for most cabinetmakers these
days. I'm sure that there are plenty that do things the old way, but
for every one of them, there are twenty (or more) that whack together
mdf boxes and push them out the door as fast as they can- they're
still cabinetmakers, because (drumroll....) they make cabinets. You
can't redefine the term to only include the ones who make the stuff
you like.

This is not an "old way" vs "new way" thing. The doors and drawers are
still being made by someone - just not the person you refer to as the
"cabinetmaker". This guy isn't applying the skills required to make
doors and drawers. The guy who uses a dial indicator is still doing
his own alignments and setups. He does 100% of the work, applying the
skills required to do the tasks. To say otherwise is to reveal that
you believe he is cheating.

Is it fine furniture making? I can't even really make that call- I've
seen some really expensive antiques that anyone would consider "fine
furniture"- but when you turn them around, the back is made from old
barn boards nailed into place. Using an engineered substrate is not
terribly different, provided the joinery is still well-excuted and the
veneers and finishes are attractive.

There is a very widespread misconception that it has to be old (or made
with old tools and techniques) in order for it to be considered
"craftsmanship". I've seen the same thing you relate here. A lot of
antiques are poorly designed and poorly constructed. There are a few
examples (like the Stradivarius violin) that reflect a level of
craftsmanship which is lost to history. But, they are darn few. The
knowledge, skill, understanding, and technology available today enables
craftsmanship on a level which couldn't even be dreamed of 100 years
ago.

Well, sure- but that was my point. If you have 20/20 vision, there's
no need for the glasses.

But, if you have 20/20 vision with glasses (or contacts, or surgery),
then it isn't "cheating", is it? Which one is cheating, the guy who
reads music or the guy who plays by ear? Your analogies really don't
speak to the issue. The glasses thing has to do with physical
disability which can be easily corrected. The music thing has to do
with talent, not skill. I think you are trying to say that various
people have different skills but end up accomplishing the same thing.
And, I think I've said that I agree (several times now!). I have no
argument with this.

If it bothers you to think that it takes skill to properly use a dial
indicator to align machinery, then that's a problem that you will have
to work out on your own. If you are insulted by people who find no use
for "jobsite coping skills" because they have learned other skills
(like how to use a dial indictor) then you are just going to have to
deal with it.

Here again, you've got this notion that everyone is insisting on trial
and error, and not acknowledging that an alternate approach may work
just as well, without being a half-assed way of going about things.

No, I really am arguing with those who are against using dial
indicators. Many of them advocate trial and error methods. Some
advocate other methods. But, the common thread here is that they are
opposed to using dial indicators in the woodshop. I'm not sure why I'm
arguing with you because you say that you are not opposed to using dial
indicators. Yet, you keep turning it around to try and make it look
like I'm attacking those who advocate anything but dial indicators.
Why?

As an example, on Tuesday I was making a part for myself (a metal
spinning toolpost for the lathe) that required nine holes (as I had
drafted it) each centered on the y axis, and equidistant from one
another and the ends. When I jumped on the mill, I found that someone
on day shift had dropped a vise on the indicator and smashed it.

Rather than skipping the project until a new indicator arrived, I
squared the vise by using the edge finder on both sides of the back
jaw of the vise. There was no "test cutting" involved, and the total
deviation between the first hole and the last was less than .001" over
a run of nine inches. It took a few extra minutes, but it did the job
just the same. Without the indicator- and without trial and error.
What it did require was the trade skill of using an edge finder to
determine relative squareness mechanically- just as other trade skills
can be used to setup machines using things along the lines of a square
and a set of feeler guages. Hell, I even sharpened the bit I used for
the drilling freehand- because it took less time than setting up the
sharpening jig.

That's great. But, you would have used the indicator if it had been
available, right? You wouldn't be against using an indicator to align
a milling vise, right? You wouldn't be advocating the use of an edge
finder over the use of an indicator, right? I'm not challenging people
for being creative or demonstrating ingenuity. I'm challenging people
who try to dissuade others from using dial indicators in the woodshop.

There was no waste of material in the project, and a minimal waste of
time that could not be avoided.

Fine, no problem. Congratulations. But, you aren't going to start
abandoning the use of dial indicators in the machine shop are you? You
aren't going to start ridiculing people who use an indicator to align a
milling vise, are you? Are you going to start saying that people who
don't use an edgefinder to align a milling vise have less skill? You
don't suddenly think that using an indicator is "cheating" do you? You
aren't going to start criticizing tool and cutter grinders are you?
People who use them as "cheating" or having less skill? If you answer
"no" to all of these, then I'm not sure why you keep coming back on
this topic.

Not true, though that may be in the case of the jointer setup thread.
(I don't own a jointer, and can't make any claims about it one way or
the other.) I don't have money to waste on wood that isn't going into
the finished project, so I set up the tools to be right without using
any test cuts. From what I've read in these various threads, most
people are doing that as well- just using different tools than you are
to do so.

OK, fine. Not all of them are advocating methods which waste time or
materials (using a square to set the blade to 90 degrees). But they
are all arguing against the use of a dial indicator. And, they do so
without trying it.

There's a communication block here, and it's directly centered over
the use of "trial and error". Perhaps you mean it in a manner other
than the way in which I keep reading it- what I take you to mean is
that you're envisioning people just casually tossing their machine
into a "sort of" alignment, and then making a cut, checking it,
adjusting a little, making a cut, checking it, ad nauseum.

That's exactly what I mean.

That's not
the case- in the case of setting a saw blade to 90*, a square will do
the job without that, and in the case of a jointer, I would imagine
that a straightedge would do the job of setting the knife heights
without test cuts as well.

Sure enough. So, not everyone who has spoken against dial indicators
is advocating trial and error. But, they are still speaking against
the use of dial indicators. And, they aren't willing to listen to
potential benefits (faster, easier, greater accuracy, etc.) or even try
the dial indicator.

While I have seen one or two sentiments that reflect exactly that
approach, I have to assume that you are saying that this is what I'm
advocating, as you replied to the statements I made.

Please do not assume. If I said that you are advocating trial and
error over using dial indicators then please point it out to me. If
you are talking about something other than trial and error when you
describe jobsite coping techniques being used in the workshop then
please be more specific.

The argument develops when someone falsely characterizes the use of the
dial indicator in an effort to dissuade others from using it. *They*
say that people who use dial indicators aren't craftsmen. *They* say
it's "the easy road". *They* say that using a dial indicator is
"harder", "more trouble", "difficult", "tedious", "time consuming",
cheating, etc.

*I* didn't say most of those things- the only thing that I recall
saying was that purchasing a dial indicator for home use, waiting for
it to be shipped to my house, and then making a jig to put it on
involved a lot more time and money than just using the square that is
already sitting on my saw. If I were to run to a local store to buy
one, it's far more money than it's worth to me ($38 was the low price
the last time I was at the hardware store)

Geez, this is really getting convoluted! I didn't specifically say
that you said any of these things. But right now you are arguing with
me for arguing with people who have.

Nobody said that you have to wait for a dial indicator. Nobody said
that you had to spend $38 on one. Nobody even said that you have to
try one - until you started being critical of those who use one. I'll
have no argument with you if you have nothing against dial indicators
and the people who use them in the woodshop.

But that is neither here nor there- the point I was attempting to
clarify is that for a guy that already has an adequate technique,
finding, purchasing, setting up and interpreting the measurements
returned by unfamiliar tools may well be a lot more time and effort
than using the old reliable way of doing things. From that guy's
point of view, it *is* harder, more troublesome, more difficult,
tedious and time consuming- and in the end, may result in no
measurable difference from doing it his way to begin with.

Fine, let this guy do it any way he wants. I don't care if it takes
him more time or less time or whatever. I challenge his method only
when he uses it to put down dial indicators and those who use them. In
the case of using a square on the table saw blade, I honestly think
that Stoutman's jig is easier, faster, and more accurate. Geez, it
even costs less than a halfway decent square. In the case of using the
"carry" method on a jointer, I think that using a dial indicator is
easier, faster, and more accurate. Advocates of both methods were
challenged to try using a dial indicator. So far, no takers (well,
there's one who claims he tried it but it's pretty obvious he hasn't).
Quick to criticize, not very quick to back it up.

You keep arguing about some sort of skills which seem to be completely
unrelated. Perhaps you have generalized my arguments against specific
traditional "trial and error" techniques to include anything a person
might learn anywhere that doesn't involve using dial indicators. The
examples you cite certainly seem to fall into this category. I know
that you say they all came from what you learned working on jobsites
(even if the examples don't always seem to line up). I'm sorry that
you feel like my arguments defending the use of dial indicators makes
you feel like I'm putting down the use of these jobsite skills. Like I
said, I see why they are appropriate for the jobsite. But, there are
better ways to do things in the workshop.

Well, that didn't save the coopering trade, or the thatchers, or the
blacksmiths, did it? If you've got the superior method, there's no
real problem with letting the naysayers howl away- this little corner
of the internet by no means represents even the "average" woodworker-
most of the regulars here have gone so far beyond the ken of what is
normally accepted modern tooling and technique that the average
carpenters and cabinetmakers I've met in real life regard most of the
things I've learned or discussed here the way they would some obscure
branch of ancient alchemy.

Hmmmm.... I'll give this a whirl...

First of all, nothing in business happens all by itself. I can't just
sit back and watch my sales grow. There is competition and if I am not
actively working on moving forward then I'm going to be sliding
backward. Yes, better methods eventually overtake inferior ones. But,
that doesn't mean that my business will automatically be successful.
The automobile eventually replaced all of the horse drawn carriages.
But, not all of the early automobile manufacturers are still in
business.

The wreck itself doesn't represent very much when it comes to actual
sales. But, it does represent a market that I have targeted. Yes, I
know that it is very different from what you know of jobsite
woodworkers and cabinetmakers. These are hobbyists. If you read the
hobbyist magazines you will understand them much better. The feedback
I get from the group is valuable to me. People here react the same way
that other hobbyists react when the see or hear about using dial
indicators for woodworking. The big difference is that they are
extremely vocal here. They don't care about insulting me, they just
say what they think. There's a unique dynamic here. I argue with them
to draw out their true motives. When I understand why they feel
compelled to dissuade others from using dial indicators I can develop
better approaches to reach those who haven't yet made up their minds.
I can address objections that will likely come to them when they ask
friends about my products (or when the topic comes up in discussion
groups). So, I will have prepared them in advance.

I could do this anonymously. And, I could do this without making any
contribution (sharing expertise and offering the annual special). But,
that's just not my style.

If you have trouble understanding this then please just let it drop.
I'm not going to sit here and argue marketing strategy in the NG.

Granted- though I was referring more the the fact that I do not recall
ever seeing Mr. Lee actively putting down potential customers. He
could easily be jumping in on these threads and spouting off about how
a Veritas plane is better than an electric jointer, but he doesn't.
He just sells stuff that is hard to find elsewhere- as you do.

Well, as I tried to relate, Rob and I aren't the same person. We don't
operate the same business. If he wants to do market research, he tells
his Marketing department to go spend a bunch of money with a market
research firm. And, there's nobody out there trying to dissuade others
from buying Veritas products. There is no group of people who feel
offended every time someone mentions a Veritas product. One of the
quotes I provided did show how Rob addressed a person who said a
particular product was overpriced and unnecessary. This is just about
as close as it gets but its still not the same thing. There are people
who have a philosophical opposition to everything my business stands
for. Nobody has a philosophical opposition to Lee Valley.

There is a fine qualitative difference between the behavior of Mr. Lee
and yours. I'm not trying to put you down- I was just making an
example of his superb aplomb when dealing with issues.

Yes, of course there's a difference. We are different people in
different situations doing different things. I really can't afford to
be like Rob in my situation. Give me a million dollars and then I
could probably afford to be a lot more like Rob.

I saw nothing
in the posts you linked to that compare to the issue at hand, though
everyone reads different things into the subtext. With one exception,
I've never seen a post from the guy that led to a flamewar- and the
other party in that case was really frothing to begin with.

I think it's safe to assume that Rob is here mainly to develop and
maintain a reputation for customer satisfaction. If this is true, then
his goals and objectives are much better served using an approach which
is very different from mine.

Nor am I saying that you are poorly behaved or boorish- you're
obviously an honest guy that is passionate about what he's doing. All
I'm getting at, 110% of it, is that you are either intentially or
unintentionally insulting some people in these discussions.

Yep, some people do get insulted. Not because I'm looking to insult
them. I don't engage them until they express their opposition. Then I
really want to know how they react when confronted with the facts and
logic of their own thinking. I want to know what motivates them to
actively oppose the use of dial indicators in the woodshop. I really
do not understand what compells them to be so strongly opposed my
products. In the process of finding out, they become insulted. Why?
Because more often than not their opposition is emotional, not logical.
And, when confronted by logic it looks pretty stupid.

plenty of ways to avoid that while saying exactly the same thing. If
you can keep peoples' hackles down, they're a whole lot more likely to
seriously explore what you're advocating.

Nope. Not possible. You can't explore the opposition or expose the
motives of blind pride without insult. The only way to avoid insult is
for the person to abandon their pride and look at the situation
objectively. That's a problem when the person can't even see their
pride. Just let me know when you are ready to start talking about
aligning and adjusting woodworking machinery (as opposed to all the
perceived insults).

Ahhhh... And how does one *build* a multi-million dollar empire? Or
maintain it?

While I'd like to think it's solely quality product and fair prices,
there's a fair amount of diplomacy involved as well.

It's a topic that goes way beyond this discussion or even the group.
Everyone I meet has platitudes about building a successful business.
You are right, having the best products or the best prices won't do it.
"Diplomacy" is important but it won't do it either. I can name a big
pile of extremely successful businesses that were built by people who
are pretty darn blunt. There is no simple trite formula. People
always look at a successful business and try to identify a particular
quality which is responsible. It's a lot more complicated than you
think. One thing is for sure - you can do everything exactly right but
if you don't have significant financial resources then the going is
incredibly rough.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

wrote:


: There is a very widespread misconception that it has to be old (or made
: with old tools and techniques) in order for it to be considered
: "craftsmanship". I've seen the same thing you relate here. A lot of
: antiques are poorly designed and poorly constructed.


Not only are a lot of surviving antiques poorly made,
consider the large number of pieces made in the past that
didn't survive -- often due to shoddy construction. I'd
venture a guess that most furniture made in the olden days was
of not very high quality. What we see is what managed to last, due to
decent craftsmanship and/or design.

There are a few
: examples (like the Stradivarius violin) that reflect a level of
: craftsmanship which is lost to history. But, they are darn few. The
: knowledge, skill, understanding, and technology available today enables
: craftsmanship on a level which couldn't even be dreamed of 100 years
: ago.


Absolutely true.


-- Andy Barss

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 01:09:35 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
wrote:

wrote:


: There is a very widespread misconception that it has to be old (or made
: with old tools and techniques) in order for it to be considered
: "craftsmanship". I've seen the same thing you relate here. A lot of
: antiques are poorly designed and poorly constructed.


Not only are a lot of surviving antiques poorly made,
consider the large number of pieces made in the past that
didn't survive -- often due to shoddy construction. I'd
venture a guess that most furniture made in the olden days was
of not very high quality. What we see is what managed to last, due to
decent craftsmanship and/or design.

There are a few
: examples (like the Stradivarius violin) that reflect a level of
: craftsmanship which is lost to history. But, they are darn few. The
: knowledge, skill, understanding, and technology available today enables
: craftsmanship on a level which couldn't even be dreamed of 100 years
: ago.


Absolutely true.


-- Andy Barss


Let's not confuse engineering with craftsmanship.

Let's not confuse craftsmanship with design.



Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

In article , Andrew Barss wrote:

Not only are a lot of surviving antiques poorly made,
consider the large number of pieces made in the past that
didn't survive -- often due to shoddy construction. I'd
venture a guess that most furniture made in the olden days was
of not very high quality. What we see is what managed to last, due to
decent craftsmanship and/or design.

The same principle applies to music as well -- the main reason, I believe,
that much classical music is so far superior to most modern music is that only
the good stuff survived long enough to become "classical". There was probably
just as much crap being composed in Beethoven's day as there is now... but
nobody remembers crap that's a couple centuries old, whereas the crap that's
only a couple of years old is still played daily on the radio. :-(

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Tom Watson wrote:

: Let's not confuse engineering with craftsmanship.

: Let's not confuse craftsmanship with design.


No confusion here.


-- Andy Barss

On 26 Nov 2006 15:58:25 -0800, wrote:

Hmmmm.....

I think we're going round and round in circles.

Agreed.

Step back and look at your total argument for a minute- you're
falling into the same error you've accused others of in this
particular case.

No, I'm not. And, I think that this is a very revealing point. I'm
saying that a person who pays someone else to do 90% of the
cabinetmaking job (doors and drawers) doesn't deserve credit for doing
the whole job. I recognize that there is room for differing opinions.

Revealing what? It's a job title- and if you go and apply for that
job, most places will set you to making carcasses and then mounting
third-party doors and drawers. I don't think they deserve "credit"
for that either- but they're not doing it for prestige, they're doing
it for money.

If you believe that this is analogous to the indicator vs traditional
methods discussion, then you must feel that 90% of woodworking is
setting up the machines. And, you would have to believe that using a
dial indicator is like paying someone else to do the setup for you
(i.e. "cheating").

Not at all. This is exactly why I keep arguing with you. I already
said the damn indicator was a fine way to do it- you're the one who
has jumped into four or five unrelated threads, and started going off
about the half-assed methods of all us slack-jawed yokels who think
using anything that measures with less precision than a thousandth to
measure something is ok. I have not -ever- said that using an
indicator is cheating- why do you keep claiming I have?

This is not an "old way" vs "new way" thing. The doors and drawers are
still being made by someone - just not the person you refer to as the
"cabinetmaker". This guy isn't applying the skills required to make
doors and drawers. The guy who uses a dial indicator is still doing
his own alignments and setups. He does 100% of the work, applying the
skills required to do the tasks. To say otherwise is to reveal that
you believe he is cheating.

Yes, it *is* an "old way" vs "new way" thing. It's a product of
specialization that occurs as civilization advances- those guys that
make door fronts and drawers only make door fronts and drawers, and
they get very good at doing it well for a low price point. They're
not cabinetmakers, either- the guy that makes the carcasses has
claimed the job title. Just because you (and I, truth be told) would
prefer that it only referred to a guy that runs a full-service shop,
that doesn't make it so.

If it bothers you to think that it takes skill to properly use a dial
indicator to align machinery, then that's a problem that you will have
to work out on your own. If you are insulted by people who find no use
for "jobsite coping skills" because they have learned other skills
(like how to use a dial indictor) then you are just going to have to
deal with it.

Ed, I am not insulted by people doing things any way they like- I am
insulted by you putting words in my mouth and concepts in my head that
were never there to begin with.

Point of fact on this particular score- in my last post, I indicated
that a guy who is accustomed to one method may not have the skill to
properly use a dial indicator, and might just find it frustrating. I
have no idea how that became me being "bothered" by the idea of using
precision measurement tools being a skill. Most places want you to
have a degree before you're even allowed to touch those tools.

But this argument has not been about the use of indicators for a while
now, it's been about you jumping people and telling them what they
think, when it's apparent that you're (perhaps intentionally)
misreading the situation to make a point.

No, I really am arguing with those who are against using dial
indicators. Many of them advocate trial and error methods. Some
advocate other methods. But, the common thread here is that they are
opposed to using dial indicators in the woodshop. I'm not sure why I'm
arguing with you because you say that you are not opposed to using dial
indicators. Yet, you keep turning it around to try and make it look
like I'm attacking those who advocate anything but dial indicators.
Why?

Because from what I've seen over the past few weeks, you are. You
keep repeating a few terms as though they were dirty words, and
applying them with a brush that is far too wide. If someone advocates
anything *but* a dial indicator where you would use one, they become a
an advocate of "Trial and error". If anyone disagrees with that for
any reason whatsoever, they're "ignorant", and think that those that
do use them are "cheating". Whether they use those words or not, and
even if they're not expressing anything of the sort, you keep pulling
out the old tried and true to polarize the argument.

Nowhere, at any time, or in any post, in my entire life, have I
advocated guessing at a setting for anything. I won't even cook a
frozen pizza without a specific temperature and cooking time firmly in
mind, much less slap a tool into a random position and start cutting
away. I'd be willing to bet that a few of the guys you've applied
your labels to are the same.

That's great. But, you would have used the indicator if it had been
available, right? You wouldn't be against using an indicator to align
a milling vise, right? You wouldn't be advocating the use of an edge
finder over the use of an indicator, right? I'm not challenging people
for being creative or demonstrating ingenuity. I'm challenging people
who try to dissuade others from using dial indicators in the woodshop.

Sure, using the indicator is the normal technique. The point was that
there is more than one way to skin a cat. If your way works, that's
great, but it doesn't make the other ways inadequate.

If you answer
"no" to all of these, then I'm not sure why you keep coming back on
this topic.

See above- you're verbally attacking people with little or no
provocation. I thought perhaps you didn't realize you were doing it,
and the words were just coming out wrong, but now it seems to me like
you do in fact know what you're up to. Hope that works out for you-
and it might (more than one way to skin a cat, and all.)

OK, fine. Not all of them are advocating methods which waste time or
materials (using a square to set the blade to 90 degrees). But they
are all arguing against the use of a dial indicator. And, they do so
without trying it.

Not true. They are explaining alternate methods, and you're taking it
as an attack on yours. Then you insult them, and they insult you
back. Getting a good flame war going doesn't help the case for
precision measurement (if anything was less related to emotion, I'd be
hard pressed to name it), unless you're of the "any publicity is good
publicity" school of thought.

Sure enough. So, not everyone who has spoken against dial indicators
is advocating trial and error. But, they are still speaking against
the use of dial indicators. And, they aren't willing to listen to
potential benefits (faster, easier, greater accuracy, etc.) or even try
the dial indicator.

A person is a lot more likely to listen if they aren't insulted right
off the bat.


Please do not assume. If I said that you are advocating trial and
error over using dial indicators then please point it out to me. If
you are talking about something other than trial and error when you
describe jobsite coping techniques being used in the workshop then
please be more specific.

If this is really necessary, I'll run back through the history and
post quotes- but I don't think that is going to make much difference
one way or the other, and this has gone on too long already.

Geez, this is really getting convoluted! I didn't specifically say
that you said any of these things. But right now you are arguing with
me for arguing with people who have.

Yep. To clarify that even further, I am arguing with you about the
manner in which you are arguing with those who disagree with you.
Shouting and mudslinging may get you heard, but they don't make you
right.

That's not to say that you're not right- there's certainly a good
argument for everything you're advocating, and you've made the case
for it. Now stop hitting people in the head about it.

Nobody said that you have to wait for a dial indicator. Nobody said
that you had to spend $38 on one. Nobody even said that you have to
try one - until you started being critical of those who use one. I'll
have no argument with you if you have nothing against dial indicators
and the people who use them in the woodshop.

For the millionth (or so it seems) time, I don't. The difference
between you and I is that I don't think the other methods are
worthless. I know you've *said* you don't think they are- but then
immediately go on to insult those who use them, and claim that they
are wasteful of both time and materials. It keeps happening, and the
only conclusion I can draw from it is that you really think they're
inadequate.

The whole start to this spat was because I didn't completely
understand that Stoutman was calibrating his jig each time he used it,
and was leery of the idea that a couple of bent finish nails pounded
into a block of wood were up to snuff as "precision" stops. Once I
figured out that the thing was intended to be recalibrated using the
jointer fence before each use, I actually came around to the idea- not
enough to run out and make one, but enough to see the value of it.

But by that time, you had worked very hard at painting me as an idiot
and a rube (and did a pretty good job of it, at that- the only thing
that didn't support you was actual reality, which we can't see over
Usenet), along with anyone else who didn't immediately agree that the
thing was the best thing since sliced bread- and I think it's a rotten
way to act towards people. Believe it or not, I was trying to help
your argument by trying to convince you to cast it in a more positive
light- though at this point, I don't know that I care anymore.

You keep arguing about some sort of skills which seem to be completely
unrelated. Perhaps you have generalized my arguments against specific
traditional "trial and error" techniques to include anything a person
might learn anywhere that doesn't involve using dial indicators. The
examples you cite certainly seem to fall into this category. I know
that you say they all came from what you learned working on jobsites
(even if the examples don't always seem to line up). I'm sorry that
you feel like my arguments defending the use of dial indicators makes
you feel like I'm putting down the use of these jobsite skills. Like I
said, I see why they are appropriate for the jobsite. But, there are
better ways to do things in the workshop.

Things aren't lining up for you because they're metaphors. I figured
talking about something like perfect pitch would help take some of the
loaded words out of the argument, but it didn't. With the specifics,
I said I felt like a good square and a set of feeler gauges was
adequate to set a blade, and that I didn't have enough info to say
anything about the jointer blades. I did support the dial indicator
for setting planer blades, and intend to dedicate a couple to that
purpose.

I could go out and buy a Ferrari to drive to work every day- it
certainly a fine piece of machinery, and much better than my low-end
Ford, but there's no real need for it- especially if I'm obeying the
speed limits. But if I was going to participate in a race, there'd be
a real solid case for the Ferrari. See the metaphor?

The wreck itself doesn't represent very much when it comes to actual
sales. But, it does represent a market that I have targeted. Yes, I
know that it is very different from what you know of jobsite
woodworkers and cabinetmakers. These are hobbyists. If you read the
hobbyist magazines you will understand them much better.

Boy, is that a high-handed and rotten thing to say. You figure I've
spent tens of thousands of dollars and years of my life in the pursuit
of becoming a better craftsman, and never went to the effort of
reading a magazine about it?

If you have trouble understanding this then please just let it drop.
I'm not going to sit here and argue marketing strategy in the NG.

No, I understand it. If you look above, this is what I'm getting at-
you slapped me in the face, and only then proceded to a logical
argument.

There is a fine qualitative difference between the behavior of Mr. Lee
and yours. I'm not trying to put you down- I was just making an
example of his superb aplomb when dealing with issues.

Yes, of course there's a difference. We are different people in
different situations doing different things. I really can't afford to
be like Rob in my situation. Give me a million dollars and then I
could probably afford to be a lot more like Rob.

You don't make a million dollars in the first place by offending
potential customers and telling them they don't matter. I probably
would have bought a TS-aligner had you stayed more positive about it,
but this debate has cost you one sale for sure (mine), at least for
the time being.

Yep, some people do get insulted. Not because I'm looking to insult
them. I don't engage them until they express their opposition. Then I
really want to know how they react when confronted with the facts and
logic of their own thinking. I want to know what motivates them to
actively oppose the use of dial indicators in the woodshop. I really
do not understand what compells them to be so strongly opposed my
products. In the process of finding out, they become insulted. Why?
Because more often than not their opposition is emotional, not logical.
And, when confronted by logic it looks pretty stupid.

You're getting skewed data. I keep trying to explain why that may be
the case, but maybe I'm wrong. It's happened before, and is bound to
happen again.

When you're wondering why people are opposing you, there's a piece of
advice I got once that made a lot of sense-

"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you always got."

plenty of ways to avoid that while saying exactly the same thing. If
you can keep peoples' hackles down, they're a whole lot more likely to
seriously explore what you're advocating.

Nope. Not possible. You can't explore the opposition or expose the
motives of blind pride without insult. The only way to avoid insult is
for the person to abandon their pride and look at the situation
objectively. That's a problem when the person can't even see their
pride.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Think there might be
just a little bit of the old stiff-neck on your side of things as
well?

Just let me know when you are ready to start talking about
aligning and adjusting woodworking machinery (as opposed to all the
perceived insults).

Oh, I don't mind talking about aligning and adjusting woodworking
machinery with you- I'm just trying to keep it seperate from this. I
do appreciate the link you gave me with the jig for setting planer
knives, and I'll admit I've learned a thing or two from these threads.

On the whole, I really don't mind talking with you, and I'm not really
that personally insulted- I know who I am and what I'm capable of
doing, and an argument on the internet won't change any of that. I'll
freely admit that there are far more things I don't know than there
are things I do know for sure, and always appreciate a fresh look at
things. I do like to keep things straight, though- plausible bull****
hurts us all, and I'm sure you can agree with that.

Let's be honest for a moment- you don't really *need* a $200 router to
make a sign with your house number on it, or a japanese chisel that
has been sharpened to an edge a straight-razor would be jealous of to
clean up a mortise. You don't have to have a Unisaw with a table that
is within .001 of total flatness to rip some boards to make a
doghouse, and you don't have to have a Oneway lathe to turn a stair
spindle. Most folks already know that- but some of the new guys
don't, and there's no call to scare people away from the hobby by
making every project into a potential museum exhibit milled to a
degree of precision that might make NASA jealous. All those things
can lead to a degree of satisfaction, and can be really fun in their
own right, but sometimes you just have to grab some cheap Harbor
Frieght tools and make a pukey duck- because that's part of the hobby,
too.

To tell you the truth, I'd like to see your argument for precision
measurement get a little more of a foothold- there's plenty of room
for it in the trade. But I'm not going to just jump on your bandwagon
if it means that anyone who doesn't go for it is to be the subject of
a smear campaign. There are plenty of reasons for a guy *not* using
your pet techniques, and I tried to suggest some of them. There are
plenty of reason for a guy *to* use them as well, and I've attemped to
acknowledge them as well.

That's about all I can do, really.

Prometheus,

Still round and round in circles - getting nowhere.

I really can be a pretty nice person. And, I really am very good to my
customers. I go way out of my way for friends (many of whom are
customers). But, I just don't indulge every possible whim. Like I've
said before, I'm a truth and honesty at all costs kind of guy. So, if
a charlatan approaches me spouting all sorts of bovine fecal matter,
trying to impress me with some fictitious expertise, then I'm extremely
likely to insult him. I really don't care if I lose the sale. You
see, I grew up in a culture where honesty was more important than
friendship. Flattery was considered deceptive and dishonorable.
Indulging a person's ego did them more harm than good. In my thinking,
the wounds from a friend are far better than gifts from an enemy.

I have a friend who grew up in a culture that believes very strongly in
being gracious. He was taught that he must find at least one good
thing to say about a person every time he meets them. He constantly
pours on the flattery. He ingratiates himself to everyone he meets.
He embellishes his stories and descriptions to make people feel good.
Consequently, he has countless friends everywhere. Everybody likes to
be around him. Everyone enjoys his company. He is extremely popular.
But, it's all shallow. Nobody takes him seriously. Nobody trusts the
veracity of his tales. Nobody considers him to be an expert in
anything. It's all for show.

While it might seem like it, these two descriptions are not the
extremes. Both my friend and I get along quite well in our lives.
There are things about him that I admire and there are things about me
that he admires. I think that his style serves him well in his
profession. And, he thinks that my style serves me well in mine.
Neither of us are going to change. We have already lived half a
lifetime looking at the world through our respectively colored glasses
and it's no longer possible to see it any other way.

In discussion groups like the wreck, there is a very strong temptation
to express more expertise than one actually has. After all, there are
a lot of people who just don't know very much. And, there is a certain
level of anonymity which makes it difficult for people to disprove what
is said. It is very easy just to embellish a bit on one's knowledge to
gain favor and respect; so easy that I've actually done it on a few
occasions. I'll never forget the time when I declared that all the
parts of a Windsor chair could be machined:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.w...e5a7a51fdd1f0d

Or the time I proposed the mistaken theory that a miter joint would be
more stable if the proportions of length to width equalized the
longitudinal and lateral expansion rates:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.w...9eac02ad6e3aeb

I actually built a table based on that theory and it's still together
today (no thanks to the theory)! My arch nemesis started an entire
thread to make sure nobody missed that blunder. I never have made a
Windsor chair. Maybe someday. In any case, there have been other
instances but I think you get the idea. There might not be anybody
that can disprove the embellished fact, but a person with real
expertise can very easily identify it. Once challenged on such an
issue it is very tempting to become falsely indignant and say all sorts
of things to try and embarrass the expert. This temptation must also
be resisted because it is absolute confirmation that the lie has been
exposed. The best possible thing to do is to come clean and yield to
the expert. A good recovery includes some gratitude for having been
corrected. This approach preserves honor and integrity, maintains
respect, and prevents a useless flame war. In spite of my academic
approach to machinery alignment and adjustment, this is one lesson that
I have learned the hard way.

Now, let me talk a moment about you specifically. I'm sorry to have to
be so blunt about this but you leave me little choice. This just isn't
going to get resolved without some confrontation. So, is there
anything else you want to mention that might possibly insult you?
Perhaps a favorite color? A particular day of the week? Phase of the
moon? Let's do a short review: You're not an expert on the Sherman
Act. You're not an expert machinist. You're not an expert in
metrology. You're not an expert in metallurgy. You're not an expert
woodworker. And, you're not an expert in running a business. Even
though I'm not an expert in all of these areas either, it hasn't been
difficult for me to make these determinations. I don't have to show up
at your workplace or home to figure out when you are embellishing on
your knowledge. Enough with the false indignation, OK? I'm tired of
hearing about how much I insult people when I don't indulge their
particular whims. I'm not going to sell my products to people who are
proud to cut lumber off their knee, apply factory made doors and
drawers to plywood boxes, scribe cabinets to brick walls, etc. unless
they are interested in doing something different. Like I said, just
let me know when you are ready to start talking about aligning and
adjusting woodworking machinery.


Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

On 28 Nov 2006 14:16:47 -0800, wrote:



I really can be a pretty nice person.

I am willing to entertain this as a possibility but I do not see this
to be in evidence just now.

And, I really am very good to my
customers.

One would expect that.

I go way out of my way for friends (many of whom are
customers).

See supra and let's not stretch the equality, just now.

But, I just don't indulge every possible whim. Like I've
said before, I'm a truth and honesty at all costs kind of guy.

This goes a long way to explain your marginality in the business
world. Wake the **** up and smell the coffee, Ed.

So, if
a charlatan approaches me spouting all sorts of bovine fecal matter,
trying to impress me with some fictitious expertise, then I'm extremely
likely to insult him. I really don't care if I lose the sale

Then you are dumber than snot.

. You
see, I grew up in a culture where honesty was more important than
friendship. Flattery was considered deceptive and dishonorable.
Indulging a person's ego did them more harm than good. In my thinking,
the wounds from a friend are far better than gifts from an enemy.

I don't give a **** how you grew up; as a customer, I'm only
interested in your relationship to me.



I have a friend who grew up in a culture that believes very strongly in
being gracious. He was taught that he must find at least one good
thing to say about a person every time he meets them. He constantly
pours on the flattery. He ingratiates himself to everyone he meets.
He embellishes his stories and descriptions to make people feel good.
Consequently, he has countless friends everywhere. Everybody likes to
be around him. Everyone enjoys his company. He is extremely popular.
But, it's all shallow. Nobody takes him seriously. Nobody trusts the
veracity of his tales. Nobody considers him to be an expert in
anything. It's all for show.

My guess is that he is extremely successful in business, and you are
not.


While it might seem like it, these two descriptions are not the
extremes. Both my friend and I get along quite well in our lives.
There are things about him that I admire and there are things about me
that he admires. I think that his style serves him well in his
profession. And, he thinks that my style serves me well in mine.
Neither of us are going to change. We have already lived half a
lifetime looking at the world through our respectively colored glasses
and it's no longer possible to see it any other way.

I suspect that he laughs at you while counting his change.



In discussion groups like the wreck, there is a very strong temptation
to express more expertise than one actually has. After all, there are
a lot of people who just don't know very much.


My problem with you, Ed, is that you have adopted an elitist attitude,
far out of proportion to your abilities v. the general run of the
Wreck.


Or the time I proposed the mistaken theory that a miter joint would be
more stable if the proportions of length to width equalized the
longitudinal and lateral expansion rates:


Miter joints are not stable, Ed. Only fools use miter joints without
other joinery supporting.


A good recovery includes some gratitude for having been
corrected. This approach preserves honor and integrity, maintains
respect, and prevents a useless flame war. In spite of my academic
approach to machinery alignment and adjustment, this is one lesson that
I have learned the hard way.

You have no idea.



Now, let me talk a moment about you specifically. I'm sorry to have to
be so blunt about this but you leave me little choice. This just isn't
going to get resolved without some confrontation. So, is there
anything else you want to mention that might possibly insult you?
Perhaps a favorite color? A particular day of the week? Phase of the
moon?

Prometheus was arguing the field man's point. You have chosen to
dissect him. I have chosen to let you try to dissect me, as I also
would argue the field man's point.

Your tool works towards a point that is without merit in the real
world. That is it, plain and simple. Now, I expect an argument from
you, as that is your game; however, if you choose to pursue this, I
will not only bring up Bleed's arguments, but will add my own.

Let's do a short review: You're not an expert on the Sherman
Act.

Neither are you.

You're not an expert machinist.

Neither are you.

You're not an expert in
metrology.

Neither are you.

You're not an expert in metallurgy.

Neither are you.

You're not an expert
woodworker.

Neither are you - but I am.

And, you're not an expert in running a business.

It is more than apparent that you are not, either.

Even
though I'm not an expert in all of these areas either, it hasn't been
difficult for me to make these determinations.

To your satisfaction.

I don't have to show up
at your workplace or home to figure out when you are embellishing on
your knowledge. Enough with the false indignation, OK? I'm tired of
hearing about how much I insult people when I don't indulge their
particular whims. I'm not going to sell my products to people who are
proud to cut lumber off their knee, apply factory made doors and
drawers to plywood boxes, scribe cabinets to brick walls, etc. unless
they are interested in doing something different. Like I said, just
let me know when you are ready to start talking about aligning and
adjusting woodworking machinery.


Well, you went on quite a tear there, Ed, didn't you?

You know, Ed, you make me almost wish that Bleeds was back.

What an arrogant little ******* you have become in his absence.



"Know what it is to meet Achilles angry."


Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Hi Tom,

Thank you for this reply (even though my message to Prometheus wasn't
written for you). It comes as quite a surprise - especially after what
we discussed in the "Klownhammer" thread. I would really prefer to
believe that what you said wasn't just disingenuous platitudes but this
message makes it difficult. And, I really am surprised that you would
take up such a perceived offense for someone else.

In any case, I appreciate the time and effort that you expended and
would like to fully understand exactly what you intend for me to learn
from it. If I might make a suggestion, perhaps you should take some
time to read the preceding discussion (and review what you said in the
"Knownhammer" thread).

Tom Watson wrote:
On 28 Nov 2006 14:16:47 -0800, wrote:
But, I just don't indulge every possible whim. Like I've
said before, I'm a truth and honesty at all costs kind of guy.

This goes a long way to explain your marginality in the business
world. Wake the **** up and smell the coffee, Ed.

The four letter expletive aside, it's difficult for me to determine
exactly what you believe is the cause of this "marginality" you talk
about. Is it the "truth and honesty at all costs" part? Do you think
that I should be a lot more deceptive? Should I just tell people
whatever they want to hear to get them to buy my products? This seems
pretty unlikely to me. And, it's something that I just can't do.

Perhaps the lesson you intend for me here is that a good business
person should indulge every possible whim. A good business person
doesn't worry about getting side tracked by a myriad of unrelated
topics or about wasting time on things that don't have any possible
benefit.

More specifically, I should pursue sales with people (like the jobsite
woodworkers Prometheus was talking about) who clearly do not need the
TS-Aligner products. Is this what you are saying Tom? I should not
consider the fact that they are focused on framing and trim carpentry
in adverse working conditions. I should not be concerned that their
work has nothing to do with woodshop machinery. I should avoid saying
anything that would imply that the methods and skills that these people
depend upon are not compatible with my products because it might insult
them.

So, insulting this segment of the market by telling them that my
products don't apply to their skills and methods has caused me to
become marginalized in the whole business world. Is that what you
intend for me to learn here Tom? Hmmmm......somehow I just don't see
the connection. I get along pretty well with all my business
associates. And, if I could offer dealers the sort of "value" (i.e.
obscene markup) that they desire then I'd be flush with them too. I'm
not feeling very marginalized. This is just a really small niche
market that I happen to be pretty passionate about.

Perhaps you have additional information which would help me to
understand your meaning. You're very good at stories. Maybe you can
cite some examples from your own life or experience in business.
Perhaps you relate a story in which deception was the correct course of
action. Or, perhaps you can describe how indulging every possible whim
has worked out so well for you. To really fit the situation, I think
it would be good to include a scenario in which the person bringing the
whim was part of a larger group that was insulted by the skills and
methods you use in your pursuit of quality and craftsmanship.

So, if
a charlatan approaches me spouting all sorts of bovine fecal matter,
trying to impress me with some fictitious expertise, then I'm extremely
likely to insult him. I really don't care if I lose the sale

Then you are dumber than snot.

Again, I would appreciate some further clarification. If a charlatan
approaches you spouting all sorts of bovine fecal matter trying to
impress you with some fictitious expertise, you are extremely likely to
indulge them? You would let them believe that you were falling for
their act? They would receive no indication of your knowledge or
expertise on the subject? And, considering the context (rec.ww),
everyone reading along would also receive no indication of your
knowledge or expertise. You would do this because you don't want to
insult them. That way, you preserve the opportunity to have them do it
to you again. And they will do it because you have demonstrated that
you are such an easy mark. Maybe you need to review my "Philosophy"
page:

http://www.ts-aligner.com/philosophy.htm

I know of a few people that are insulted by it. I know of thousands
who appreciate it. I'm really only interested in selling my products
to people who want them. I would like to understand nay-sayers so that
I can help people who are undecided. But, I don't want their business.
I'm not looking for people to insult, but I'm not going to sacrifice
my self respect and the respect of others to avoid insulting a
charlatan.

Maybe I am, as you say, "dumber than snot". And, I suppose the reverse
would be true if I were to allow myself to be insulted by what you have
written. Isn't that what you are saying? If your coarse and vulgar
manner in this message managed to insult me then you might lose the
opportunity to share your woodworking expertise, skills, and methods
with me. But, you probably don't care if you insult me, do you (it's a
small boat, isn't it?). So, according to the way you are viewing the
situation, I suppose you would have to admit that you were "dumber than
snot" too - *IF* I took offense. But, I don't. I cannot deny
admiration for the fine examples of your work that you show on your
website. I cannot deny respect for the skill and craftsmanship that
you have demonstrated. I accept that fact that your methods and
techniques aren't appropriate for the sort of work that I enjoy doing.
I'm not insulted, even when you characterize some of my favorite
machines as "roughing tools". And, I'm not just spouting disingenuous
platitudes here.

This really could be viewed in more of a "Mahayana" manner. You
remember, from the "Klownhammer" thread. I really took those words to
heart. And, while I don't believe that I was ever in violation of the
spirit of that conversation, I have taken extra measures to live up to
the letter of it. As much as I would like to believe otherwise, I'm
feeling as if I'm the only one who did. Perhaps it's an example of how
well deception works.

. You
see, I grew up in a culture where honesty was more important than
friendship. Flattery was considered deceptive and dishonorable.
Indulging a person's ego did them more harm than good. In my thinking,
the wounds from a friend are far better than gifts from an enemy.

I don't give a **** how you grew up; as a customer, I'm only
interested in your relationship to me.

Four letter expletives aside, I expect that you care about the product
first. Perhaps you are getting just a bit too idealistic here. What
sort of relationship do you have with the owners and corporate officers
of companies whose products you own? Are you friendly with the CEO of
the company that made your car? How about your computer? Or, maybe we
should talk more about products in the TS-Aligner price range. I'd bet
that you have purchased thousands of products under $200 and you know
absolutely nothing about the owners or CEOs of the companies that made
them. Are you saying that you might not buy their products if you met
them and decided that you didn't like them? Are you saying that you
expect them all to be very meek, mild and polite people who have a
friendly relationship with all their customers? This is just a bit
over the top, don't you think? You don't believe this, not even a
little bit.

Let's look at it another way (more analogous to the situation). Why
don't you choose a particular product that you despise and make an
appointment to see the President, CEO, or owner of the company that
made it. During your visit, tell the person that you think their
product is useless and insulting. At this point I'm sure that they
would do their best to thank you for your feedback and offer many
platitudes to help you out of their office. But, don't stop there.
Inform him/her that you have spared no effort to go public in
appropriate newsgroups and internet forums - seeking to convince as
many as possible that they shouldn't buy the product. Then tell me
what happens next. I'd bet $100 that he/she picks up the phone and
calls the legal department. It might not be such a pleasant, friendly
relationship after all.

Here's the point. My customers (the people who have purchased my
product because they wanted it) have a very good relationship with me.
Probably better than 99% of the relationships that you've had with the
maker of any product you have ever purchased. If there is an angry,
unhappy customer out there then they have never talked to me about it.
You and Prometheus (and other nay-sayers) are not my customer. You
have never purchased anything from me. You don't like my products
based on perception, not experience. You profess to be insulted by
their very existence. You are hostile toward me and my products. I
don't even want to sell them to you. And you are making every effort
to inform the public through this newsgroup that people shouldn't buy
them. Having rather shallow pockets, and wanting to learn the motives
of such nay-sayers, I jump into the conversation rather than call the
lawyers. Suddenly I start getting compared to Rob Lee. Hmmm.....

I have a friend who grew up in a culture that believes very strongly in
being gracious. He was taught that he must find at least one good
thing to say about a person every time he meets them. He constantly
pours on the flattery. He ingratiates himself to everyone he meets.
He embellishes his stories and descriptions to make people feel good.
Consequently, he has countless friends everywhere. Everybody likes to
be around him. Everyone enjoys his company. He is extremely popular.
But, it's all shallow. Nobody takes him seriously. Nobody trusts the
veracity of his tales. Nobody considers him to be an expert in
anything. It's all for show.

My guess is that he is extremely successful in business, and you are
not.

I suppose it all depends on how you measure success. If it's measured
in dollars and cents, then he is much more successful than me. If it's
measured in the quality of sleep, health, personal life, sense of
satisfaction, feeling of pride, then I win hands down. He tells me all
the time: "Ed, you have the best job in the world!" Perhaps it's just
more flattery. I'm willing to believe that he sees things in my
profession that he admires - just as I see things in his that are
admirable. I had his job and his income and everything that came with
it. I gave it up for something that I believe in.

I suspect that he laughs at you while counting his change.

If he does, he never lets me see it. And, it doesn't show in his
eagerness to help me out whenever I ask.


In discussion groups like the wreck, there is a very strong temptation
to express more expertise than one actually has. After all, there are
a lot of people who just don't know very much.


My problem with you, Ed, is that you have adopted an elitist attitude,
far out of proportion to your abilities v. the general run of the
Wreck.

Is this really *YOUR* problem? It's a serious question. Maybe it's a
problem that really doesn't concern you at all. Like I said at the
top, you are taking up a perceived offense for someone else. None of
my words were intended for you. Perhaps I was too hard on Prometheus.
Perhaps not. Maybe he asked you to take me on. Maybe you just decided
to jump into a matter which doesn't concern you.

While you might have your finger on the pulse of the Wreck, your
judgment of my attitude and my abilities is very subjective. Until you
actually meet me, see what I can do, and examine my work, you really
are basing your opinion on very little evidence. You may believe that
I'm behaving in an "elitist" manner, but many would believe that I'm
being very helpful. Perhaps I should start writing in parables, then I
would very clearly be demonstrating an "elitist attitude".

Miter joints are not stable, Ed. Only fools use miter joints without
other joinery supporting.

Thanks for the advice Tom, the joints are all reinforced. Perhaps you
should have read the thread, that's why I posted the reference. I made
that table about 20 years ago. I suppose I would be demonstrating an
"elitist attitude" if I wrote in parables *and* patronized people.
Yes, that would be a very clear demonstration of an "elitist attitude".

A good recovery includes some gratitude for having been
corrected. This approach preserves honor and integrity, maintains
respect, and prevents a useless flame war. In spite of my academic
approach to machinery alignment and adjustment, this is one lesson that
I have learned the hard way.

You have no idea.

Do you presume to read my mind? Or, are you presuming to predict the
future?



Now, let me talk a moment about you specifically. I'm sorry to have to
be so blunt about this but you leave me little choice. This just isn't
going to get resolved without some confrontation. So, is there
anything else you want to mention that might possibly insult you?
Perhaps a favorite color? A particular day of the week? Phase of the
moon?

Prometheus was arguing the field man's point. You have chosen to
dissect him. I have chosen to let you try to dissect me, as I also
would argue the field man's point.

This is a point that you would not be mistaken on if you had been
reading the thread. I agreed with Prometheus several times about the
"field man's point". He just kept coming back over and over again
about how much I insulted the jobsite woodworker and his coping skills.
He even expressed outrage that I didn't want to sell to those people
(just like you). The "field man" doesn't need or want my products. I
don't want to sell them to him. If you want to put yourself into that
category and let it insult you then there really isn't anything I can
do. To quote a famous Seinfeld episode: "No soup for you!"

Your tool works towards a point that is without merit in the real
world. That is it, plain and simple. Now, I expect an argument from
you, as that is your game; however, if you choose to pursue this, I
will not only bring up Bleed's arguments, but will add my own.

Well Tom, threats aside, it is your right and privilege to decide
whether or not my products have any merit for you. And, quite
frankly, your judgment doesn't surprise me in the least. Your methods
use machinery for rough cutting wood. You don't expect your machines
to provide you with the high precision and accuracy needed for joinery.
You utilize hand tools for that. So, you have absolutely no use for
any products which would be used to align and adjust machinery for
highly accurate "finish" cutting.

What I said in the "Klownhammer" thread and also above in this message
still stands. I have the greatest respect and admiration for the
quality and craftsmanship of your work. So, your judgment of my
products doesn't insult me in the least. And I hope it isn't an insult
to agree with you about it. I don't make any effort to sell to people
who see no merit in my products. But they always seem to do their best
to judge the merit of my products for other people. I guess that I
would be demonstrating another "elitist attitude" if I decided that my
tools and methods were the only ones that had merrit.

Let's do a short review: You're not an expert on the Sherman
Act.

Neither are you.

I know several people that have much more expertise than I do on the
Sherman Act. I have shared what I know and no more. It's a working
knowledge based on years of experience in the reseller channel (not
necessarily my own products mind you). It would probably surprise you
to know that I worked quite closely with corporate lawyers for many
years.


You're not an expert machinist.

Neither are you.

I know some people that have more skill in the machine shop than I do.
I also know many people who would never attempt what I do routinely. I
don't know that you have any skill or expertise in a machine shop.
Your comments about the capabilities of woodworking machinery leave me
wondering. If someone were to say that they were a machinist who
worked in a machine shop then I would not expect them to say that they
never use dial indicators.

You're not an expert in
metrology.

Neither are you.

Indeed I am not. I have no NVLAP Certificate of Accreditation. The
requirements are a bit steep for what I do:

http://ts.nist.gov/Standards/Accredi...ndbook-150.pdf

I do have the equipment (much of which has been certified with NIST
traceable standards), the written inspection procedures, and the skill
to carry them out in a competent manner to achieve accurate and
reliable results. I can calculate an estimation of the measurement
uncertainty and utilize statistical techniques for analysis of test
and/or calibration data. I understand basic Metrological principles and
can identify and correct common errors. But, since you have never
visited my shop, and have no idea what I am capable of, then all you
have is my word on it (and a history of consistent commentary in this
NG).

You're not an expert in metallurgy.

Neither are you.

Well, what I know comes from 15 years experience in my own machine
shop. It's a working knowledge aided by the information in Machinery's
Handbook. Let's just say that I know enough not to say that dead soft
low carbon steel can be annealed and that it somehow becomes softer as
a result.


You're not an expert
woodworker.

Neither are you - but I am.

Well, if the work on your web site is any indication, then I am most
impressed. I don't have any trouble saying that your expertise exceeds
my own. Sure wish that there were more close-up shots. Ever think
about taking some classes in photography?

And, you're not an expert in running a business.

It is more than apparent that you are not, either.

I'm sure that I have a lot to learn. While my practices are often
unorthodox, so are my goals and objectives. The point is that I do run
a business. And, having done it for 15+ years means that I might have
a little more insight than someone who hasn't. While I don't mind all
the platitudes that people offer, I do mind when they become insulted
and angry with me for not taking them to heart ("I was only trying to
help"). If you have been running a business for any length of time,
then you understand *exactly* what I'm talking about. And, if you had
taken any time to read the thread you would have seen this happen.


Even
though I'm not an expert in all of these areas either, it hasn't been
difficult for me to make these determinations.

To your satisfaction.

Yep. And your determinations have been to your satisfaction as well.
Since you profess and demonstrate expertise in only one of these areas,
I would be interested to know what you base your judgments on.
Obviously not first hand knowledge because we have never met.


I don't have to show up
at your workplace or home to figure out when you are embellishing on
your knowledge. Enough with the false indignation, OK? I'm tired of
hearing about how much I insult people when I don't indulge their
particular whims. I'm not going to sell my products to people who are
proud to cut lumber off their knee, apply factory made doors and
drawers to plywood boxes, scribe cabinets to brick walls, etc. unless
they are interested in doing something different. Like I said, just
let me know when you are ready to start talking about aligning and
adjusting woodworking machinery.


Well, you went on quite a tear there, Ed, didn't you?

Perhaps you can explain why I should be selling my products to people
who do not need them and are insulted when I describe what they do.
That's what this is all about. You should have read before rambling.

You know, Ed, you make me almost wish that Bleeds was back.

What an arrogant little ******* you have become in his absence.

Well Tom, since you are taking this perceived offense up for someone
else, and I have the utmost respect for your woodworking expertise, I
choose to take no offense in your assessment of me - no matter how
vulgar. You can't insult me unless I decide to allow it. If you would
like to base these judgments on more than just conjecture and a
misplaced sense of injustice, then I would be proud to host you as a
guest of my shop. Until then, such judgments are going to be
meaningless.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

On 28 Nov 2006 14:16:47 -0800, wrote:


Now, let me talk a moment about you specifically. I'm sorry to have to
be so blunt about this but you leave me little choice. This just isn't
going to get resolved without some confrontation. So, is there
anything else you want to mention that might possibly insult you?
Perhaps a favorite color? A particular day of the week? Phase of the
moon?

Only thing that has irritated me about you is your paranoid attitude
that everyone is out to get you, and it's manifestation as a
willingness to attack like a bulldog at the slightest provocation.
I'm not terribly insulted by you- I'm arguing with you, because I can
take a punch on the chin. Sometimes, that leads to a cold beer and
some frank conversation that clears the bull**** out of the air- and
sometimes it leads to this.

Let's do a short review: You're not an expert on the Sherman
Act.

Nope. Nor am I a lawyer, judge, constitutional scholor, or college
professor. I also do not hold a medical degree, skydive, sew or
ballroom dance. I make useful items out of wood, metal, and
occasionally masonry materials- that's it. However, I am a person
capable of actual thought- and more often than not, that's more useful
in dealing with reality than memorized expertise from a textbook.

You're not an expert machinist.

No- but I get by, and do well enough at it. I use what is needed to
do the job at hand. When that's a mic, I use a mic. When it's a dial
indicator, I use a dial indicator. And I know enough to know what
tool I need to measure the part in front of me properly, as well as
visualize offsets, write G-code programs (without CAD, even), and set
up machines for precision work. Sometimes, I even use something
demeaning like a rule or a square. I've even been known to lay out a
blank with some red dye and a caliper from time to time.

[shocked silence from the audience]

That's the result of on the job training, as opposed to taking a voc.
school course on the subject. Guaranteed, I can learn whatever I need
to know when I encounter a new challenge faster than you can blink-
that's worth more than your bombast.

You're not an expert in metrology.

Never said I was- in fact, I didn't even know the term until you
started tossing it around willy-nilly. But that doesn't prevent me
from knowing when something is not called for. I could align all the
books on my shelves to make them flush with the front using a
straightedge and feeler guages, but that's.... insane. And even
though it's nuts, I'd imagine that you'd still chime in about my
sloppy trial and error book alignment technique, and declare that a
dial indicator would make the bindings align more evenly.

You're not an expert in metallurgy.

Nope, working knowledge only. I add to it as needed for the job at
hand. I've worked an alloy or two, and know how to get them to do
what I want. Sometimes, I have to use something new, and then I learn
a little more.

You're not an expert woodworker.

I'm not? I'd be willing to go toe-to-toe with you on that score.
Considering the range of skills involved and the general level of
ability in the population, I'd feel very comfortable calling myself an
expert in at least a few areas of it. I'd even go out on a limb and
guess that I know more about it than you. Can't say for sure, of
course- but I'm not the one applying micrometric precision to a
product of a living organism. You forgot the soul of the tree, Ed-
why not just focus on metal, where that soul doesn't matter a bit?
Iron and steel don't care how they are worked.

And, you're not an expert in running a business.

Nope. I'm not even an expert consumer. Whenever possible, I make my
own things. Though I did manage to do well by myself for a long
stretch of time contracting- does four years count for anything, or is
that just goofing off? Still be doing it today, if I was willing to
risk everything while networking to establish myself in this area- but
I'm not.

Even though I'm not an expert in all of these areas either, it hasn't been
difficult for me to make these determinations. I don't have to show up
at your workplace or home to figure out when you are embellishing on
your knowledge.

Almost kind of wish you did show up one day, you could see how wide
you've been of the mark more than a few times. Sure, I've made some
deadly written gaffs in the quest make a point, but we all make
mistakes.

No- I'm not really an *expert* at many things. Expertise implies
specialization, and I am a rabid generalist. I learn what I need to
do a particular task I'm taking on, and then get on with it. Once
I've learned it to my satistfaction, I move on to another challenge.
When I see someone struggling to figure out something I've already
done, I try to share what I learned by doing that thing a time or
twenty. They can take it or leave it, and if they leave it, I feel no
need to "call their motives into question."

I'm sure I could become an expert machinist just to argue with you on
a woodworking newsgroup, but that's not a very good motive for doing
something. If I were going to specialize in it, I'd have to like it
more than I actually do, and be willing to devote single-minded
attention to the subject for years. Something I have done with
woodworking, despite your claim to the contrary- I've still got my
first scar from when I was seven or eight years old, and trying to
figure out how to whittle articulated chains like the ones I saw in
the "Paul Bunyon logging camp" with my little Old Timer pocketknife.
Got a little pineywood sap in my blood that day, and it never did
manage to work itself out. Sure, I've asked some dumb questions in
the past- they're in the archives for all who care to look to see.
I'm 27 years old- everything I learned on were low-end hardware store
hand tools, until several years ago when I finally got to a point
where I had money and space to start buying bigger and nicer
equipment. When I got that equipment, I figured I had better ask
around a bit before I managed to chop a hand off on my new toys.
Truth be told, my shop and projects today would make a lot of far
older men more than a little green around the gills- but I still
remember picking up sticks and whittling them with a pocketknife while
I blue-skyed about making something "really nice" someday. So when I
see you prattling on about how anyone who doesn't have a million
dollar shop adjusted to machine shop precision can't do a damn thing
worth doing, I get more than a little irritated on behalf of that kid
standing behind me that still has only a pocketknife and a bit of
determination.

I run metal working machines to pay the bills- I make parts to fit
specs as quickly as I can to keep the money coming in- and so far,
that's been working pretty well for me. The boss says I'm the best
machinist they've got- and I'll have to admit that I'm more convinced
by that (when real life, and the shop's cash flow is involved) than
worrying about whether or not Ed from the Wreck has approved my
credentials. No, I don't often measure in tenths- go on and sue me.
In spite of your scorn, I'm not going to run out and buy new equipment
and change the company's (sucessful) business model so that I can run
with big dogs like yourself. I'm fine with making useful things that
people actually need- and the customers are delighted to let me make
those things for them. And, in case you hadn't realised, you've
mentioned nothing but dial indicators in *any* of your posts. I've
been avoiding that, but there it is. That the only measurement tool
there is, Mr. Metrology? Someone is not in the *real* world- are you
sure it's me?

Enough with the false indignation, OK? I'm tired of
hearing about how much I insult people when I don't indulge their
particular whims.

I'm tired of the damn flame war that you keep rekindling in thread
after thread with little or no provocation. Lots of folk roll over
for you quickly enough, and I just decided not to. Sort of like not
just looking the other way and walking along when a kid is getting
mugged by a bully.

I'm not going to sell my products to people who are
proud to cut lumber off their knee, apply factory made doors and
drawers to plywood boxes, scribe cabinets to brick walls, etc. unless
they are interested in doing something different. Like I said, just
let me know when you are ready to start talking about aligning and
adjusting woodworking machinery.

With you, Ed- I'm not. Not anymore. I have always been able to align
and adjust my woodworking equipment just fine on my own. If I want to
add a dial indicator to the mix somewhere down the line, I imagine I
can figure that out on my own- even though I have not recieved the
acclaim of "experts" in the field of metrology.

To close, I'll remind you of your response to Tom Watson:

"While you might have your finger on the pulse of the Wreck, your
judgment of my attitude and my abilities is very subjective. Until
you actually meet me, see what I can do, and examine my work, you
really are basing your opinion on very little evidence. You may
believe that I'm behaving in an "elitist" manner, but many would
believe that I'm being very helpful. Perhaps I should start writing
in parables, then I would very clearly be demonstrating an "elitist
attitude."

Perhaps you should heed your own advice. A man's value is in his
works, not his words- might want to know the work before you go
judging his "expertise."

Like you said, we've dancing in circles. Feel free to get the last
word in, I've said my piece. I really did try to see your point, and
there were some very good points you made- but you've got this so
worked up in your own head, you can't see the shop for the swirly
brownian motion of every mote of sawdust.

Thanks for the detailed reply Prometheus.

Prometheus wrote:
Only thing that has irritated me about you is your paranoid attitude
that everyone is out to get you, and it's manifestation as a
willingness to attack like a bulldog at the slightest provocation.

When I read this my first reaction was to re-read what transpired in
various threads, including this one. While I don't think that I'm
being paranoid or attacking people like a bulldog, it is quite possible
that I'm so focused on the moment that I miss the big picture. I
invite you to do the same thing - especially in this thread. After
some careful introspection I really don't believe that your words
characterize my behavior. If you still believe that you have
accurately described the situation, then I would consider it a big
favor if you point it out to me.

I'm not terribly insulted by you- I'm arguing with you, because I can
take a punch on the chin. Sometimes, that leads to a cold beer and
some frank conversation that clears the bull**** out of the air- and
sometimes it leads to this.

Well, the air does nead some clearing, that's for sure. I would be
honored to buy you a beer and you are most welcome to visit my shop any
time you are in the area. I don't know if I'll ever be in your area
because I don't know what your area is. But you are always welcome in
my neck of the woods.

In my review of this thread in particular, it still seems as if I just
couldn't express any opinion or explain any position without raising
your cockles. I didn't say any of these things with the intent to
insult you or anyone else. I understand how disturbing it is to have
one's passions and achievements mistakenly characterized in
unflattering ways. If I did this to you then I apologize.

The whole purpose of my products is to facilitate a level of accuracy
and precision that eliminates the need for trial and error (test cuts)
with woodworking machines. This is going to be offensive to people who
hold these techniques dear. It is also going to be offensive to people
who believe such a goal is impossible because their own efforts have
been met with failure. Most often these people respond with critical
remarks like "it's unnecessary", "it's more trouble than it's worth",
"it has no merrit". I challenge these statements with pointed
questions and embarrassing scenarios. When challenged they generally
attempt to villify me in some way. More often than not, they try to
protray me as arrogantly running around attacking people for advocating
anything other than my products.

I still don't understand what skills and techniques you have been
talking about. You say that they are not "trial and error". But when
I characterize "trial and error" as a rudimentary and primitive
technique you say that I'm being offensive. If they are not trial and
error, then they are not related to my products. My products do not
exist to put down any particular trade group or skill set. I do not
want to promote my products to people who don't need or want them.
But, I won't sit by and let my passions and achievements be mistakenly
characterized in unflattering ways without being challenged. It's not
an unprovoked attack, it's a very carefully measured response. The
goal is to discover (expose) motive. It doesn't have to be painful or
insulting but some people prefer that to honesty.

I'm not going to respond to each point of expertise that I mentioned in
the earlier message. Your response tells me that the intent was
completely missed. I realize now that I probably should have never
posted it. I was very frustrated with your response and with a few
other messages from you in the group. I should have let it go for a
day or two and then I would have been better able to respond to your
message. I didn't write it to put you down or to put down the skills
that you obviously possess and use to earn a living. I'm sorry that
you took it that way and felt the need to strike back. I hope that you
don't miss the intended meaning and that your future postings in the NG
will be better as a result.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

snip


If you would
like to base these judgments on more than just conjecture and a
misplaced sense of injustice, then I would be proud to host you as a
guest of my shop. Until then, such judgments are going to be
meaningless.

You've quite missed it, haven't ye.

My reference:

Troilus and Cressida Act V

Achilles:

Where is this Hector?
Come, come, thou boy-queller, show thy face;

KNOW WHAT IT IS TO MEET ACHILLES ANGRY

Hector? where's Hector? I will none but Hector.



Definitions: hector
verb

tr & intr
hectored, hectoring
1. To bully, intimidate or threaten.

Thesaurus: badger, browbeat, harass, intimidate, bully, menace, nag,
tease, harry, pester.
noun

1. A bully or tormentor.

Etymology: 17c: named after Hektor, the Trojan hero in Homer's
Iliad.






An argument for a broader base to engineering education.





Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

No Tom I didn't miss it, I ignored it. I'm still not insulted. I
still respect the quality of your work. But, I am forming new opinions
about you as a person.

The problem with this pseudo intellectual nonsense is twofold. First,
there just aren't a lot of people who readily recognize a quote like
this. Nor do they want to waste their time to look it up. Second,
even those few that are familiar with the quote and well versed on the
topic cannot possibly discern *your* particular meaning in using it.
Certainly there are a lot of various possibilities - the exploration of
which is pointless.

Since your reference appeals to such a small segment of the general
population it makes you appear elitist. And, you appear rather
arrogant because your condescending elaboration (directed at me)
includes everyone who "quite missed it".

Obviously, you have no desire to portray the very qualities that you
accuse me of. So, why don't you just come out and say what you mean?
Why do you feel the need to hide behind this pseudo intellectual
nonsense? Why do you ignore the entirety of my response with all of
its pointed questions and focus on just this one tiny quote? Please
just explain it in plain English so that everyone can understand what
you are talking about.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

Tom Watson wrote:
snip


If you would
like to base these judgments on more than just conjecture and a
misplaced sense of injustice, then I would be proud to host you as a
guest of my shop. Until then, such judgments are going to be
meaningless.

You've quite missed it, haven't ye.

My reference:

Troilus and Cressida Act V

Achilles:

Where is this Hector?
Come, come, thou boy-queller, show thy face;

KNOW WHAT IT IS TO MEET ACHILLES ANGRY

Hector? where's Hector? I will none but Hector.



Definitions: hector
verb

tr & intr
hectored, hectoring
1. To bully, intimidate or threaten.

Thesaurus: badger, browbeat, harass, intimidate, bully, menace, nag,
tease, harry, pester.
noun

1. A bully or tormentor.

Etymology: 17c: named after Hektor, the Trojan hero in Homer's
Iliad.






An argument for a broader base to engineering education.





Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On 3 Dec 2006 13:55:54 -0800, wrote:

Thanks for the detailed reply Prometheus.

Prometheus wrote:
Only thing that has irritated me about you is your paranoid attitude
that everyone is out to get you, and it's manifestation as a
willingness to attack like a bulldog at the slightest provocation.

When I read this my first reaction was to re-read what transpired in
various threads, including this one. While I don't think that I'm
being paranoid or attacking people like a bulldog, it is quite possible
that I'm so focused on the moment that I miss the big picture. I
invite you to do the same thing - especially in this thread. After
some careful introspection I really don't believe that your words
characterize my behavior. If you still believe that you have
accurately described the situation, then I would consider it a big
favor if you point it out to me.

Ed, I think we've both gotten at least a little out of hand with this.

I'm not going to pursue it, and I'm not going to hold a grudge about
it either. I'm sure you're a good guy, and it seems that we're just
misinterpreting each others' words. It'd probably be a two minute
conversation face-to-face, and the whole deal would be resolved. It's
tough to know when someone is joking, being sarcastic, rolling their
eyes, etc. with written words, and there has got to be a subtext here
on both sides that is not being communicated accurately for any number
of possible reasons.

So, I'll apologise in turn for the misunderstanding, and forget the
whole deal. Like you, I'd be pleased to buy you a beer if you're ever
in the area (which in my case is Bloomer, WI.) Probably, I'd like you
just fine in person, and get a touch embarrassed over this whole
exchange to boot.

In fact, I just met with a guy from the blacksmithing group (I'm
learning to make chisels for myself so the lathe doesn't put me in the
poorhouse) in person for a demonstration of his forge and a some tips
on building my own, and he was nothing like what I had imagined- I
don't know that I've ever met a friendlier or more helpful guy, but he
seemed a little grumpy and brusque online. So, you never really know-
and that's probably the case here as well.

So, good luck in your ventures, and have fun- that's the whole point,
after all!

wrote:

: The problem with this pseudo intellectual nonsense is twofold. First,
: there just aren't a lot of people who readily recognize a quote like
: this. Nor do they want to waste their time to look it up. Second,
: even those few that are familiar with the quote and well versed on the
: topic cannot possibly discern *your* particular meaning in using it.

No kidding. And it's unclear what the hell he was talking about
with respect to linking the Shakespeare quote to bullying. Thinking
of himself as a persecuted hero who slays the bully? Thinking of
himself as the bully?

Combine the confused attempts at literary allusion with the
cussing, and I'm starting to think the writer is actually a
teenage relative of the account owner, trying (badly) to come
across as a badass enfant terrible.


:
: An argument for a broader base to engineering education.
:


No, an argument that you need to try harder to make posts that
make sense, or at least stop swearing so much at pleasant people.


-- Andy Barss

Absolutely. I think there's probably a bunch of misunderstandings here
and that we probably would get along great in real life. Apology
greatfully accepted. I'll look you up if I'm ever in WI. Let me know
if there is anything I can do for you.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

Prometheus wrote:
Ed, I think we've both gotten at least a little out of hand with this.

I'm not going to pursue it, and I'm not going to hold a grudge about
it either. I'm sure you're a good guy, and it seems that we're just
misinterpreting each others' words. It'd probably be a two minute
conversation face-to-face, and the whole deal would be resolved. It's
tough to know when someone is joking, being sarcastic, rolling their
eyes, etc. with written words, and there has got to be a subtext here
on both sides that is not being communicated accurately for any number
of possible reasons.

So, I'll apologise in turn for the misunderstanding, and forget the
whole deal. Like you, I'd be pleased to buy you a beer if you're ever
in the area (which in my case is Bloomer, WI.) Probably, I'd like you
just fine in person, and get a touch embarrassed over this whole
exchange to boot.

In fact, I just met with a guy from the blacksmithing group (I'm
learning to make chisels for myself so the lathe doesn't put me in the
poorhouse) in person for a demonstration of his forge and a some tips
on building my own, and he was nothing like what I had imagined- I
don't know that I've ever met a friendlier or more helpful guy, but he
seemed a little grumpy and brusque online. So, you never really know-
and that's probably the case here as well.

So, good luck in your ventures, and have fun- that's the whole point,
after all!