Hello,
I'm close to loosing all patience with my 6 1/8" jointer/planer and
hoping for some advice. It's a Craftsman bench top model and my
history with sears woodworking tools leaves me to first suspect the
machine. Let me get to the problem first.

All boards I plane (and I have only worked with 4S softwood pine) will
produce a flat face, but this flat face is always deeper on one end
than the other. Thus, I start with two sides something close to 90deg
and working on edge 1 starts moving the two sides closer to 80deg. If
I try to correct the problem by on edge two I get even closer to 70deg.
Obviously one side of the blades/plates/something is lower/higher than
the other but I can't figure it out. My straight edges aren't as
reliable as I'd like so I tried a 1-2-3 block on the out feed with
feeler guages on the infeed to check for differences along the length.
Might I mention I can't get the infeed to the same level as the outfeed
so this is the only way to check for coplanar tables as well. The
feeler guage didn't seem to show any difference between the two in
terms of height but I don't feel as confident as I might if I could
compare the two on a granite surface out in space to make sure that
everything is truly level to 0.0000000001+- inches. Do you see how
nuts this is making me?

I would like to think the problem rests in my technique and I've read
the book on technique. I understand snipe (not a problem with me at
this point), I get the concept of planing an edge, then a face then
surface planing opposite face then finishing edge on the joiner. I get
the hand over hand, weight transfer from outfeed to infeed idea. I've
read, get and tried it all and still get these boards that close in
from 90 to 0 degrees. Last night I jointed 1 inch off a board, worked
until 1:08AM adjusting the blades (lost the allen wrench between the
roller/infeed, took apart the entire machine, rebuilt it, readjusted
blades), felt confident I was getting a flat face/90deg cut, tried it
this morning and same thing.

Help!

wrote:
Hello,
I'm close to loosing all patience with my 6 1/8" jointer/planer and
hoping for some advice. It's a Craftsman bench top model and my
history with sears woodworking tools leaves me to first suspect the
machine. Let me get to the problem first.

All boards I plane (and I have only worked with 4S softwood pine) will
produce a flat face, but this flat face is always deeper on one end
than the other. Thus, I start with two sides something close to 90deg
and working on edge 1 starts moving the two sides closer to 80deg. If
I try to correct the problem by on edge two I get even closer to 70deg.
Obviously one side of the blades/plates/something is lower/higher than
the other but I can't figure it out. My straight edges aren't as
reliable as I'd like so I tried a 1-2-3 block on the out feed with
feeler guages on the infeed to check for differences along the length.
Might I mention I can't get the infeed to the same level as the outfeed
so this is the only way to check for coplanar tables as well. The
feeler guage didn't seem to show any difference between the two in
terms of height but I don't feel as confident as I might if I could
compare the two on a granite surface out in space to make sure that
everything is truly level to 0.0000000001+- inches. Do you see how
nuts this is making me?

I would like to think the problem rests in my technique and I've read
the book on technique. I understand snipe (not a problem with me at
this point), I get the concept of planing an edge, then a face then
surface planing opposite face then finishing edge on the joiner. I get
the hand over hand, weight transfer from outfeed to infeed idea. I've
read, get and tried it all and still get these boards that close in
from 90 to 0 degrees. Last night I jointed 1 inch off a board, worked
until 1:08AM adjusting the blades (lost the allen wrench between the
roller/infeed, took apart the entire machine, rebuilt it, readjusted
blades), felt confident I was getting a flat face/90deg cut, tried it
this morning and same thing.

Help!

If I understand what you're saying, it sounds like the outfeed is not
horizontal in relation to the infeed.

How long is the board you're working with? For adjustment and checking
purposes I'd start with a board not much longer than the infeed bed,
that was fairly straight to begin with.

Jointing a long, warped board on a benchtop jointer is an art I was
never able to master.

wrote in message

I get
the hand over hand, weight transfer from outfeed to infeed idea.

??

Sounds to me like you got that backwards ... indeed, you might want to
review your technique.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

Swingman wrote:
wrote in message

I get
the hand over hand, weight transfer from outfeed to infeed idea.

??

Sounds to me like you got that backwards ... indeed, you might want to
review your technique.

Yep, sounds like the perfect recipe to create a tapered cut...

I think maybe you want to much from a jointer. If you edge or face a
board over and over on the same side you will start to see the board
get smaller on the tail end or one one edge. It's just the physics of
the system in my opinion.

I think you can rely on a jointer to:

A: Flatten one face of a board. If this takes several passes you will
likely notice that one edge or end is thinner than the other.

B: Straighten one edge by indexing the newly flattened face against the
fence. Now you have one flat face with one edge at exact 90 (if you
have a good setup on the fence).

Now you can use the Planer to flatten the other face relative to the
already flattened face and the TS to straighten the other edge relative
to the straight edge.

Does this sound right?


wrote:
Hello,
I'm close to loosing all patience with my 6 1/8" jointer/planer and
hoping for some advice. It's a Craftsman bench top model and my
history with sears woodworking tools leaves me to first suspect the
machine. Let me get to the problem first.

All boards I plane (and I have only worked with 4S softwood pine) will
produce a flat face, but this flat face is always deeper on one end
than the other. Thus, I start with two sides something close to 90deg
and working on edge 1 starts moving the two sides closer to 80deg. If
I try to correct the problem by on edge two I get even closer to 70deg.
Obviously one side of the blades/plates/something is lower/higher than
the other but I can't figure it out. My straight edges aren't as
reliable as I'd like so I tried a 1-2-3 block on the out feed with
feeler guages on the infeed to check for differences along the length.
Might I mention I can't get the infeed to the same level as the outfeed
so this is the only way to check for coplanar tables as well. The
feeler guage didn't seem to show any difference between the two in
terms of height but I don't feel as confident as I might if I could
compare the two on a granite surface out in space to make sure that
everything is truly level to 0.0000000001+- inches. Do you see how
nuts this is making me?

I would like to think the problem rests in my technique and I've read
the book on technique. I understand snipe (not a problem with me at
this point), I get the concept of planing an edge, then a face then
surface planing opposite face then finishing edge on the joiner. I get
the hand over hand, weight transfer from outfeed to infeed idea. I've
read, get and tried it all and still get these boards that close in
from 90 to 0 degrees. Last night I jointed 1 inch off a board, worked
until 1:08AM adjusting the blades (lost the allen wrench between the
roller/infeed, took apart the entire machine, rebuilt it, readjusted
blades), felt confident I was getting a flat face/90deg cut, tried it
this morning and same thing.

Help!

wrote:
....
All boards I plane (and I have only worked with 4S softwood pine) will
produce a flat face, but this flat face is always deeper on one end
than the other. Thus, I start with two sides something close to 90deg
and working on edge 1 starts moving the two sides closer to 80deg. ...

I can't tell which surface and which dimension/angle with respect of
surface to edge you're having a problem with from your description...

Are you ending up w/ stock of varying thickness while trying to surface
it or an edge that is out of square w/ the face?

If the former, there's a note from Swingman that I concur is quite
likely a possibility that is technique-related unless you made a
description error. If the latter, the fence may be out of square w/
the tables rather than the knives being out of adjustment.

Your description of technique/process also left me a little confused as
well as to what you're after w/ a jointer. The point/sequence of
face-jointing first w/ the jointer is to get one flat surface which
becomes the reference. Then need to get the opposite surface flat and
parallel to that one and the jointer isn't the ideal way to do that --
that's the planer's job. Problem w/ the jointer for the second face is
that once you've taken some material off the first face or if it was
rough-sawn material to begin with, the second face isn't parallel to
the first but the cut is referenced only to that surface so, in
general, you end up w/ a second face also flat but not parallel to the
first. It is _extremely_ difficult to manually adjust the amount of
cut in the right place to correct the initial discrepancy unless it is
very large and so typically every pass simply compounds the problem...

I can probably help you out (or at least figure out what's going
wrong).

wrote:
All boards I plane (and I have only worked with 4S softwood pine) will
produce a flat face, but this flat face is always deeper on one end
than the other.

It's hard for me to be sure exactly what you are talking about. To me,
the "ends" of a board are the shorter width. "End grain" is on the
ends of a board. Are you saying that you are jointing a face or an
edge of a board and that you are having trouble keeping it parallel
with the opposite face/edge? Or, are you saying that the depth of the
cut across the width of the board isn't consistent?

Thus, I start with two sides something close to 90deg
and working on edge 1 starts moving the two sides closer to 80deg.

Please don't interchange the terms "sides" or "edge". It makes it very
difficult to follow what you are describing. Use the term "edge" to
describe a narrow side. Use the term "face" to describe a wide side.
If the piece being jointed is square, then they are all faces.

So, are you saying that you are having trouble jointing an edge so that
it is square to a face?

If
I try to correct the problem by on edge two I get even closer to 70deg.

Is "edge two" opposite or adjacent to "edge 1"? See, I just can't
picture what you are talking about. Use "opposite edge" or "adjacent
face".

Obviously one side of the blades/plates/something is lower/higher than
the other but I can't figure it out. My straight edges aren't as
reliable as I'd like so I tried a 1-2-3 block on the out feed with
feeler guages on the infeed to check for differences along the length.

Proper jointer alignment starts with making sure that the knives are
all at the same level as the outfeed table. It could be that this is
your problem, I don't know. Then you want to make sure that the infeed
table is parallel to the outfeed table. It could be that this is your
problem, I don't know. Finally, you want to make sure that the fence
is square with both tables. This could also be your problem.

First, I will have to understand your symptoms. Then I can direct you
through all the steps needed to check each one of the major alignments
on a jointer. You might also find it handy to view the video on this
page:

http://www.ts-aligner.com/jointer.htm

There's another video with different voice-over on this page under the
heading "Using a flat indicator tip to set jointer knives" (which is a
practice which will can lead to the problems that you are suffering).

http://www.ts-aligner.com/alignmentmyths.htm

You'll notice that I advocate the use of a dial indicator. This
eliminates all of the guess work that you are currently finding so
frustrating. It doesn't have to be a TS-Aligner Jr. Any indicator jig
that can point the dial indicator downward will work. It takes
considerable skill to subjectively discern jointer knives using a 123
block and some feeler gages. I certainly can't do it as well as I can
with a dial indicator.

Might I mention I can't get the infeed to the same level as the outfeed
so this is the only way to check for coplanar tables as well. The
feeler guage didn't seem to show any difference between the two in
terms of height but I don't feel as confident as I might if I could
compare the two on a granite surface out in space to make sure that
everything is truly level to 0.0000000001+- inches. Do you see how
nuts this is making me?

Yep. There's another way to do a relative comparison of the two tables
without going juts. The two tables don't have to be at the same level
(in fact, it's easier if they are not). It does involve the use of a
long straight edge and a dial indicator. Here's the setup (photo from
a customer):

http://www.ts-aligner.com/jointertables.jpg

The straight edge being used here is from Lee Valley:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...at=1,240,45313

I would like to think the problem rests in my technique and I've read
the book on technique. I understand snipe (not a problem with me at
this point), I get the concept of planing an edge, then a face then
surface planing opposite face then finishing edge on the joiner.

Hmmm.... Try it this way: Joint a face, then joint an adjcent edge
using the jointed face against the fence. Then use your tablesaw to
rip the opposite edge parallel. And finally use a surface planer to
make the opposite face parallel. It's not generally practical to use a
jointer to make two faces or two edges parallel. It's good for
creating a flat surface (facing) and for squaring two adjcent faces (or
a face to an edge).

I get
the hand over hand, weight transfer from outfeed to infeed idea.

I'm sure you mean "infeed to outfeed" here.

I've
read, get and tried it all and still get these boards that close in
from 90 to 0 degrees.

I just don't understand what this means. How do boards "close in from
90 to 0 degrees"? 90 degrees is square. 0 degrees is flat (no angle).

Last night I jointed 1 inch off a board, worked
until 1:08AM adjusting the blades (lost the allen wrench between the
roller/infeed, took apart the entire machine, rebuilt it, readjusted
blades), felt confident I was getting a flat face/90deg cut, tried it
this morning and same thing.

Go get yourself a low cost dial indicator and I'll help you to figure
out exactly what is wrong without any guess work or frustration.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

Sorry dpb, I wrote my description before going to lunch and was simply
fried. After re-reading it I think it's confusing too so I'll start
over.

Let's say I have a 2"x4"x4' board with sides A (top), B (right), C
(bottom), D (left), E (front), F (back). I want to get C and D at 90
deg, and they're close to start with. I know that I will have snipe
affecting E & F based upon where I place my weight as the board passes
over the knives. My concern isn't so much E&F as C&B. C&B start close
to 90deg then gets closer to 0deg with ever pass that C stays where it
is. C always remains flat but the angle of C in relation to B moves in
to 0Degrees.

So, I have this nice flat surface (C) even though it's less than 90deg
in relation to B. I should be able to run C against the vertical fence
and make B = 90. Nope. As I run it, C and B edge closer to 0 as the
board begins turning into a long board with wedged D side .

Thank you so much for your suggestions and links. As I mentioned to
dbs, my description of the problem was confusing (sorry).

Thanks everyone for offering help, really. I think I'm simply being
reluctant to purchase a dial indicator for set-up but I'm starting to
think that is unavoidable when you own woodworking machines. PS I love
Lee Valley/Veritas. Too bad every company doesn't work as hard as they
do to provide value and accuracy.


wrote:
I can probably help you out (or at least figure out what's going
wrong).

wrote:
All boards I plane (and I have only worked with 4S softwood pine) will
produce a flat face, but this flat face is always deeper on one end
than the other.

It's hard for me to be sure exactly what you are talking about. To me,
the "ends" of a board are the shorter width. "End grain" is on the
ends of a board. Are you saying that you are jointing a face or an
edge of a board and that you are having trouble keeping it parallel
with the opposite face/edge? Or, are you saying that the depth of the
cut across the width of the board isn't consistent?

Thus, I start with two sides something close to 90deg
and working on edge 1 starts moving the two sides closer to 80deg.

Please don't interchange the terms "sides" or "edge". It makes it very
difficult to follow what you are describing. Use the term "edge" to
describe a narrow side. Use the term "face" to describe a wide side.
If the piece being jointed is square, then they are all faces.

So, are you saying that you are having trouble jointing an edge so that
it is square to a face?

If
I try to correct the problem by on edge two I get even closer to 70deg.

Is "edge two" opposite or adjacent to "edge 1"? See, I just can't
picture what you are talking about. Use "opposite edge" or "adjacent
face".

Obviously one side of the blades/plates/something is lower/higher than
the other but I can't figure it out. My straight edges aren't as
reliable as I'd like so I tried a 1-2-3 block on the out feed with
feeler guages on the infeed to check for differences along the length.

Proper jointer alignment starts with making sure that the knives are
all at the same level as the outfeed table. It could be that this is
your problem, I don't know. Then you want to make sure that the infeed
table is parallel to the outfeed table. It could be that this is your
problem, I don't know. Finally, you want to make sure that the fence
is square with both tables. This could also be your problem.

First, I will have to understand your symptoms. Then I can direct you
through all the steps needed to check each one of the major alignments
on a jointer. You might also find it handy to view the video on this
page:

http://www.ts-aligner.com/jointer.htm

There's another video with different voice-over on this page under the
heading "Using a flat indicator tip to set jointer knives" (which is a
practice which will can lead to the problems that you are suffering).

http://www.ts-aligner.com/alignmentmyths.htm

You'll notice that I advocate the use of a dial indicator. This
eliminates all of the guess work that you are currently finding so
frustrating. It doesn't have to be a TS-Aligner Jr. Any indicator jig
that can point the dial indicator downward will work. It takes
considerable skill to subjectively discern jointer knives using a 123
block and some feeler gages. I certainly can't do it as well as I can
with a dial indicator.

Might I mention I can't get the infeed to the same level as the outfeed
so this is the only way to check for coplanar tables as well. The
feeler guage didn't seem to show any difference between the two in
terms of height but I don't feel as confident as I might if I could
compare the two on a granite surface out in space to make sure that
everything is truly level to 0.0000000001+- inches. Do you see how
nuts this is making me?

Yep. There's another way to do a relative comparison of the two tables
without going juts. The two tables don't have to be at the same level
(in fact, it's easier if they are not). It does involve the use of a
long straight edge and a dial indicator. Here's the setup (photo from
a customer):

http://www.ts-aligner.com/jointertables.jpg

The straight edge being used here is from Lee Valley:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...at=1,240,45313

I would like to think the problem rests in my technique and I've read
the book on technique. I understand snipe (not a problem with me at
this point), I get the concept of planing an edge, then a face then
surface planing opposite face then finishing edge on the joiner.

Hmmm.... Try it this way: Joint a face, then joint an adjcent edge
using the jointed face against the fence. Then use your tablesaw to
rip the opposite edge parallel. And finally use a surface planer to
make the opposite face parallel. It's not generally practical to use a
jointer to make two faces or two edges parallel. It's good for
creating a flat surface (facing) and for squaring two adjcent faces (or
a face to an edge).

I get
the hand over hand, weight transfer from outfeed to infeed idea.

I'm sure you mean "infeed to outfeed" here.

I've
read, get and tried it all and still get these boards that close in
from 90 to 0 degrees.

I just don't understand what this means. How do boards "close in from
90 to 0 degrees"? 90 degrees is square. 0 degrees is flat (no angle).

Last night I jointed 1 inch off a board, worked
until 1:08AM adjusting the blades (lost the allen wrench between the
roller/infeed, took apart the entire machine, rebuilt it, readjusted
blades), felt confident I was getting a flat face/90deg cut, tried it
this morning and same thing.

Go get yourself a low cost dial indicator and I'll help you to figure
out exactly what is wrong without any guess work or frustration.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

wrote:

Let's say I have a 2"x4"x4' board with sides A (top), B (right), C
(bottom), D (left), E (front), F (back). I want to get C and D at 90
deg, and they're close to start with.

...C&B start close
to 90deg then gets closer to 0deg with ever pass that C stays where it
is. C always remains flat but the angle of C in relation to B moves in
to 0Degrees.

Assuming that your fence isn't moving during the operation, it sounds
like a technique problem.

Assuming you've jointed face C, and maybe thickness-planed face E.

To edge-joint B (or D) you should be pressing C (or E, depending on
grain direction) against the fence directly over the cutterhead. If you
do this, and the fence is at 90 degrees to the cutterhead, then the face
and edge will be perpendicular.

Chris

wrote:
Let's say I have a 2"x4"x4' board with sides A (top), B (right), C
(bottom), D (left), E (front), F (back). I want to get C and D at 90
deg, and they're close to start with. I know that I will have snipe
affecting E & F based upon where I place my weight as the board passes
over the knives. My concern isn't so much E&F as C&B. C&B start close
to 90deg then gets closer to 0deg with ever pass that C stays where it
is. C always remains flat but the angle of C in relation to B moves in
to 0Degrees.

So, I have this nice flat surface (C) even though it's less than 90deg
in relation to B. I should be able to run C against the vertical fence
and make B = 90. Nope. As I run it, C and B edge closer to 0 as the
board begins turning into a long board with wedged D side .

This sounds to me like your fence is not square with the tables. This
would cause each pass jointing an edge to get progressively worse.

Either that or your infeed or outfeed tables are twisted at a funny
angle. I don't even know how that is possible on a jointer, but I guess
it could be the case.

Either way, sounds like the angle between your tables and fence is not
at 90 degrees.

I read through the revised description. I might be able to figure it
out, but I don't think so. "left", "right", "top", "bottom", etc. are
all relative terms. Your left is my right and if you turn a board to
do something then the top, which was side "A" is not the top any more,
etc. And, there's no way for me to know if side A is a face or an
edge. And, "C and B edge closer to 0 as the board begins turning into
a long board with wedged D side" is a complete mystery to me. Does
this mean that the angle between a face and an edge is becoming larger
or smaller than 90 degrees? Is the board actually growing longer? How
is a side becomming "wedged"? Does this mean that opposite sides are
not parallel? Which way are they not parallel (along their length,
across their width, or both)?

Please use standard terms: face, edge, adjcent, opposite, etc.

More and more I'm beginning to think that you want your jointer to do
the entire task of stock preparation on all four sides of the board.
This just isn't what it was meant for. It is good at making a surface
flat and square in relation to another surface. However, it is not
intended to be used to make two surfaces parallel. Do one face side
and one edge side on the jointer, period. Then finish up the board on
a table saw (the opposite edge) and the planer (opposite face).
Everything will be flat, square, and parallel.

Using dial indicators is not unavoidable. There are plenty of people
who avoid them. Some even insist on avoiding them with religious
fervor!. But, if you expect your machines to do their work properly
and accurately, and you don't like being frustrated, then a dial
indicator is a nice thing to have. It's natural to be a bit
aprehensive about using an unfamiliar tool but dial indicators are low
cost and extremely easy to use. And, after having handled literally
thousands of them, I've never been bitten.

Thanks,
Ed Bennett


wrote:
Thank you so much for your suggestions and links. As I mentioned to
dbs, my description of the problem was confusing (sorry).

Thanks everyone for offering help, really. I think I'm simply being
reluctant to purchase a dial indicator for set-up but I'm starting to
think that is unavoidable when you own woodworking machines. PS I love
Lee Valley/Veritas. Too bad every company doesn't work as hard as they
do to provide value and accuracy.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Hello,
I'm close to loosing all patience with my 6 1/8" jointer/planer and
hoping for some advice. It's a Craftsman bench top model and my
history with sears woodworking tools leaves me to first suspect the
machine.

I suspect it's operator. If the knives will "carry" a piece resting on the
outfeed table at either end, and check all three knives, then you need to
adjust them. Don't know if your outfeed table is adjustable or not. Some
aren't. You need them to kiss, not carry more than 1/8" on all three, and
no jazzbo gage is necessary. Your 1,2,3 block will be milled right enough.
If they're high, they'll snipe the trailing edge, if low, the board will hit
the outfeed table. Imagine you've got jackscrews, or at the least, springs
to raise the knives when loosened. If not, time to get some cow magnets and
hold the knives up with them.

Got to be a half-dozen jointer adjust sites out there. I use my book, and
it's the same.

Now remember that you have to watch what you're doing. You really can't
effectively reference a broad face to a narrow one, so sight the broad face
for twist or bow, setting the board over the guard and sliding the guard
aside to take off high spots at each end, or cross-corner. Hand plane will
do it too. Once you've a sighted surface, plane it all, using the blocks
and pressure over the point where the board contacts the outfeed table.

Now go back and reference the broad surface to your 90 degree fence,
sighting the board as before and removing high spots with partial passes.
Often when ripping boards the tension in the wood will cause some bow or
twist, which is why you rip a bit oversize, and plane only after ripping and
facing. Gets you straight stock you don't have to bully into position with
clamps or fasteners.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Hello,
I'm close to loosing all patience with my 6 1/8" jointer/planer and
hoping for some advice. It's a Craftsman bench top model and my
history with sears woodworking tools leaves me to first suspect the
machine. Let me get to the problem first.
snip

I initially found it a rather rude surprise that a 6 1/4 inch jointer/planer
(or any other size) could not reliably plane two parallel sides.......what
you are trying to do is not what the tool wants or can do very well.....You
can
joint one edge and one side with your jointer then use a thickness planer
(different tool) to
do the other side and then your table saw for the other edge ......but with
a jointer only you will not get the result you desire.....Can't blame Sears
for this oneG....Rod

writes:

Thanks everyone for offering help, really. I think I'm simply being
reluctant to purchase a dial indicator for set-up but I'm starting to
think that is unavoidable when you own woodworking machines.

There are low cost dial indictors.
Harbor Freight has a set (w/base) that has a sale price of about $15.
Grizzly has one on sale this Christmas for $22.25 (with a molded case).
see http://www.grizzly.com/products/G9849


--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.

Hello helpful woodworkers. I seem to be confusing a few posters so
I'll try to reclarify the board directions. Before I do, let me state
I am not trying to square four sides of a board on a jointer alone. I
realized how difficult that was when I first bought the machine and
fixed the issue by purchasing a decent planer. Also, I have nothing
against gagetry (particularly gauges). I am quite a supporter of
guages for setting machines better than fingers or eyes can.

OK, that said, I'd listed sides A (top), B (right), C (bottom), D
(left), E (front), F (back). I did not list their relationship to the
joiner clearly enough. The board would be fed E (front) from infeed
table to outfeed table with A (top of board) facing up. Side B (the
right side as looking down the planer tables from infeed to outfeed
table) would face the fence and side D (the side of the board opposite
the fence) would face me.

On each successive pass over the joiner Side C gets closer and closer
to side A on the D side but not on the B side. That is, the board acts
as if the fence is angled toward me but the fence is set with a 123
block at 90degrees. Thus in the 2"x4"x4' board demonstration, let's
imagine the board is perfectly square with the length (E to F) being
4', the depth of the board (A to C) being 2" and the width of the board
(B to D) being 4". For simplicity sake, let's say I take 1" off the
board. With my current set up, after I pass the board through the
jointer . E to F (lenght of board) is still = 4', B to D (width) is
still 4", but Side D is now 1" and Side B = 2".

Someone suggested it might be the blade setting but I wanted to know if
it was the blade, tables, table (in or out), or operator. The fence
and tables are set to 90 as measured by a 123 block. I do not know
that the tables are coplanar to eachother.

Again, sorry if this has frustrated anyone and thank you for your help.

How is the jointer mounted to the bench?
I have a Crapsmen as well and had the same problems you are haveing, the
only thing that would come out the other end was a broom stick and a poor
one at that.
A friend of mine who was a retired machinest suggested that I remove the
mounting bolts from the outfeed table, which I did and that solved the
problem. According to my friend the bolts were putting a twisting stress on
the jointer, and that it reared its ugly head only when in use. He stated
jointers, lathes etc. should have only a 3 point mounting system as it is
self leveling and that the 3 single mounting point should only be snug only.
I have not had any problems since and get 90 degree surfaces.

Joe
wrote in message
ups.com...
Hello,
I'm close to loosing all patience with my 6 1/8" jointer/planer and
hoping for some advice. It's a Craftsman bench top model and my
history with sears woodworking tools leaves me to first suspect the
machine. Let me get to the problem first.

All boards I plane (and I have only worked with 4S softwood pine) will
produce a flat face, but this flat face is always deeper on one end
than the other. Thus, I start with two sides something close to 90deg
and working on edge 1 starts moving the two sides closer to 80deg. If
I try to correct the problem by on edge two I get even closer to 70deg.
Obviously one side of the blades/plates/something is lower/higher than
the other but I can't figure it out. My straight edges aren't as
reliable as I'd like so I tried a 1-2-3 block on the out feed with
feeler guages on the infeed to check for differences along the length.
Might I mention I can't get the infeed to the same level as the outfeed
so this is the only way to check for coplanar tables as well. The
feeler guage didn't seem to show any difference between the two in
terms of height but I don't feel as confident as I might if I could
compare the two on a granite surface out in space to make sure that
everything is truly level to 0.0000000001+- inches. Do you see how
nuts this is making me?

I would like to think the problem rests in my technique and I've read
the book on technique. I understand snipe (not a problem with me at
this point), I get the concept of planing an edge, then a face then
surface planing opposite face then finishing edge on the joiner. I get
the hand over hand, weight transfer from outfeed to infeed idea. I've
read, get and tried it all and still get these boards that close in
from 90 to 0 degrees. Last night I jointed 1 inch off a board, worked
until 1:08AM adjusting the blades (lost the allen wrench between the
roller/infeed, took apart the entire machine, rebuilt it, readjusted
blades), felt confident I was getting a flat face/90deg cut, tried it
this morning and same thing.

Help!

wrote in message

Again, sorry if this has frustrated anyone and thank you for your help.

Wheeewww ... I don't. From your description and IF I follow what you're
saying:

What you're describing is what would happen if the knives are higher in
relation to the tables on your side (D), and lower on the side closest to
the fence (B).

Whether this is due to a table being warped/twisted, either stationary or
under use, or the knives just need adjusting is hard to tell.

What happens when you swap D and B against the fence and run it through
again, and does it have the effect of canceling out the problem?


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06

wrote:

On each successive pass over the joiner Side C gets closer and closer
to side A on the D side but not on the B side.

Ah, the problem occurs when you're face jointing. A light dawns.

There is possibly an alignment issue. You need to check that 1) your
knives are aligned with the outfeed table, and 2) your infeed table is
aligned to the outfeed table.

Chris

In article .com,
wrote:
Hello helpful woodworkers. I seem to be confusing a few posters so
I'll try to reclarify the board directions. Before I do, let me state
I am not trying to square four sides of a board on a jointer alone. I
realized how difficult that was when I first bought the machine and
fixed the issue by purchasing a decent planer. Also, I have nothing
against gagetry (particularly gauges). I am quite a supporter of
guages for setting machines better than fingers or eyes can.

SNIP....

If I understand what you're describing, I can see two possible causes.

1. The knives are not even with the outfeed table with the end closest to
the operator being higher than the end closest to the fence.

or

2. The infeed and outfeed tables are not parallel to each other. The
infeed table being lower on the edge closest to the operator and the
higher on the edge closest to the fence.

wrote:
....

So, I have this nice flat surface (C) even though it's less than 90deg
in relation to B. I should be able to run C against the vertical fence
and make B = 90. Nope. As I run it, C and B edge closer to 0 as the
board begins turning into a long board with wedged D side .

Then the fence isn't perpendicular to the table (assuming you've got
the knives parallel to the table).

It is possible for a fence in particular to have warp in it but in that
case you would probably be able to feel some rock and see that the
bottom edge doesn't stay straight and flat as well as the tendency to
create an out of square edge (with respect to the face against the
fence). If it is simply the fence out of square, then if you make one
pass and reverse the piece (assuming you've run it thru the planer to
have the two faces parallel, you should return it back to the previous
condition. If the fence actually were warped, there's little recourse
other than having a machine shop resurface it.

Also, it is necessary to make sure you actually are holding the face
firmly against the fence and not letting the bottom edge control the
cut in order to correct an out of square edge. This is easy to let
happen if you put excessive vertical pressure on the workpiece. If the
fence isn't rigid, it's also possible to cause it to move some by
exerting excess force in the horizontal direction as well.

On a related topic, your comment regarding snipe is indicative of
either an operational or setup problem -- if the knives are properly
set and the downward force is not excessive or in the wrong place,
there should be virtually no discernible snipe. If there is, something
ain't right. The key is to start w/ the infeed table controlling and
then transfer to the outfeed table controlling as the jointed edge
moves to the outfeed. W/ a properly set up jointer, this will achieve
a straight jointed edge with no snipe on either end.

wrote:

snipped

All boards I plane (and I have only worked with 4S softwood pine) will
produce a flat face, but this flat face is always deeper on one end
than the other. Thus, I start with two sides something close to 90deg
and working on edge 1 starts moving the two sides closer to 80deg. If
I try to correct the problem by on edge two I get even closer to 70deg.
Obviously one side of the blades/plates/something is lower/higher than
the other but I can't figure it out. My straight edges aren't as
reliable as I'd like so I tried a 1-2-3 block on the out feed with
feeler guages on the infeed to check for differences along the length.

If I understand the problem correctly it sounds like your knives are not
parallel to the tables. This article shows one way to check the knives
setting:

http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticle...justment.shtml

Might I mention I can't get the infeed to the same level as the outfeed
so this is the only way to check for coplanar tables as well.

If you can't raise the infeed table to the same height as the outfeed
table lower the outfeed table to the level of the infeed and reset the
pointer to "0" after the knives are set.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

In article .com,
wrote:

Sorry dpb, I wrote my description before going to lunch and was simply
fried. After re-reading it I think it's confusing too so I'll start
over.

Let's say I have a 2"x4"x4' board with sides A (top), B (right), C
(bottom), D (left), E (front), F (back). I want to get C and D at 90
deg, and they're close to start with. I know that I will have snipe
affecting E & F based upon where I place my weight as the board passes
over the knives. My concern isn't so much E&F as C&B. C&B start close
to 90deg then gets closer to 0deg with ever pass that C stays where it
is. C always remains flat but the angle of C in relation to B moves in
to 0Degrees.

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I'm _more_ confused now!

Are you sure that your jointer fence is set to 90d?

Are you talking about ending up with a board that is tapered in either
width or thickness? If you are using the jointer on opposite faces or
edges you are almost guaranteed to end up with those faces or edges
not parallel.


--
A man who throws dirt loses ground.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland -

If the knives are not parallel to outfeed table (one side high) there will
be rocking as the board moves to tha outfeed table which you should be able
to feel. A common error for ppl learning to use a jointer is they place
tooooooo much force trying to hold timber down. You don't need to stand on a
board to keep it flat, your main purpose is to guide the board through. A
reasonable gentle touch is all that is required.From the description it
sounds very much like the infeed table is not parallel to outfeed table but
knives are parallel to outfeed. This would cause more to be planed from one
side than the other and increase the amount of error with each successive
pass.

my suggestions would be

1.
Ignore the fence ..... nothing to do with face jointing.
If the fence is not square to table when jointing a edge the angle would
not change with successive passes, it would always remain tha same degree of
error, even after 100 passes.

2.
Check and adjust knives to outfeed table .... both level with and parallel
to outfeed table

3.
Check infeed table for level in relation to outfeed table either by
measurement
or
Let teh machine tell you what is wrong. Run piece through jointer (E end
first, mark on timber so you dont get as confused as we are) ...
measure. If out of parallel feed back through jointer opposite end first
( F end) ... measure. If board now same thickness either side (within
reason) your infeed table is not parallel to outfeed. mmmmmm guess I know
what your doing for the next cpl of hours

you dont need dial indicators ... only implements required to set up jointer
accuratly is a cpl of pieces of timber. Let the machine talk to you and tell
you what the prob is rather than trying to find an interpretor to talk to
the machine

Be at one with the machine and 'feel the force'


wrote in message
oups.com...
I can probably help you out (or at least figure out what's going
wrong).

wrote:
All boards I plane (and I have only worked with 4S softwood pine) will
produce a flat face, but this flat face is always deeper on one end
than the other.

It's hard for me to be sure exactly what you are talking about. To me,
the "ends" of a board are the shorter width. "End grain" is on the
ends of a board. Are you saying that you are jointing a face or an
edge of a board and that you are having trouble keeping it parallel
with the opposite face/edge? Or, are you saying that the depth of the
cut across the width of the board isn't consistent?

Thus, I start with two sides something close to 90deg
and working on edge 1 starts moving the two sides closer to 80deg.

Please don't interchange the terms "sides" or "edge". It makes it very
difficult to follow what you are describing. Use the term "edge" to
describe a narrow side. Use the term "face" to describe a wide side.
If the piece being jointed is square, then they are all faces.

So, are you saying that you are having trouble jointing an edge so that
it is square to a face?

If
I try to correct the problem by on edge two I get even closer to 70deg.

Is "edge two" opposite or adjacent to "edge 1"? See, I just can't
picture what you are talking about. Use "opposite edge" or "adjacent
face".

Obviously one side of the blades/plates/something is lower/higher than
the other but I can't figure it out. My straight edges aren't as
reliable as I'd like so I tried a 1-2-3 block on the out feed with
feeler guages on the infeed to check for differences along the length.

Proper jointer alignment starts with making sure that the knives are
all at the same level as the outfeed table. It could be that this is
your problem, I don't know. Then you want to make sure that the infeed
table is parallel to the outfeed table. It could be that this is your
problem, I don't know. Finally, you want to make sure that the fence
is square with both tables. This could also be your problem.

First, I will have to understand your symptoms. Then I can direct you
through all the steps needed to check each one of the major alignments
on a jointer. You might also find it handy to view the video on this
page:

http://www.ts-aligner.com/jointer.htm

There's another video with different voice-over on this page under the
heading "Using a flat indicator tip to set jointer knives" (which is a
practice which will can lead to the problems that you are suffering).

http://www.ts-aligner.com/alignmentmyths.htm

You'll notice that I advocate the use of a dial indicator. This
eliminates all of the guess work that you are currently finding so
frustrating. It doesn't have to be a TS-Aligner Jr. Any indicator jig
that can point the dial indicator downward will work. It takes
considerable skill to subjectively discern jointer knives using a 123
block and some feeler gages. I certainly can't do it as well as I can
with a dial indicator.

Might I mention I can't get the infeed to the same level as the outfeed
so this is the only way to check for coplanar tables as well. The
feeler guage didn't seem to show any difference between the two in
terms of height but I don't feel as confident as I might if I could
compare the two on a granite surface out in space to make sure that
everything is truly level to 0.0000000001+- inches. Do you see how
nuts this is making me?

Yep. There's another way to do a relative comparison of the two tables
without going juts. The two tables don't have to be at the same level
(in fact, it's easier if they are not). It does involve the use of a
long straight edge and a dial indicator. Here's the setup (photo from
a customer):

http://www.ts-aligner.com/jointertables.jpg

The straight edge being used here is from Lee Valley:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...at=1,240,45313

I would like to think the problem rests in my technique and I've read
the book on technique. I understand snipe (not a problem with me at
this point), I get the concept of planing an edge, then a face then
surface planing opposite face then finishing edge on the joiner.

Hmmm.... Try it this way: Joint a face, then joint an adjcent edge
using the jointed face against the fence. Then use your tablesaw to
rip the opposite edge parallel. And finally use a surface planer to
make the opposite face parallel. It's not generally practical to use a
jointer to make two faces or two edges parallel. It's good for
creating a flat surface (facing) and for squaring two adjcent faces (or
a face to an edge).

I get
the hand over hand, weight transfer from outfeed to infeed idea.

I'm sure you mean "infeed to outfeed" here.

I've
read, get and tried it all and still get these boards that close in
from 90 to 0 degrees.

I just don't understand what this means. How do boards "close in from
90 to 0 degrees"? 90 degrees is square. 0 degrees is flat (no angle).

Last night I jointed 1 inch off a board, worked
until 1:08AM adjusting the blades (lost the allen wrench between the
roller/infeed, took apart the entire machine, rebuilt it, readjusted
blades), felt confident I was getting a flat face/90deg cut, tried it
this morning and same thing.

Go get yourself a low cost dial indicator and I'll help you to figure
out exactly what is wrong without any guess work or frustration.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

"Paul D" wrote in message
...
my suggestions would be

1.
Ignore the fence ..... nothing to do with face jointing.
If the fence is not square to table when jointing a edge the angle would
not change with successive passes, it would always remain tha same degree
of
error, even after 100 passes.


BINGO! Trying to reference a broad face to the edge is a fool's errand.

"Paul D" wrote in message
...
If the knives are not parallel to outfeed table (one side high) there will
be rocking as the board moves to tha outfeed table which you should be
able
to feel. A common error for ppl learning to use a jointer is they place
tooooooo much force trying to hold timber down. You don't need to stand on
a
board to keep it flat, your main purpose is to guide the board through. A
reasonable gentle touch is all that is required.From the description it
sounds very much like the infeed table is not parallel to outfeed table
but
knives are parallel to outfeed. This would cause more to be planed from
one
side than the other and increase the amount of error with each successive
pass.

my suggestions would be

1.
Ignore the fence ..... nothing to do with face jointing.
If the fence is not square to table when jointing a edge the angle would
not change with successive passes, it would always remain tha same degree
of
error, even after 100 passes.

2.
Check and adjust knives to outfeed table .... both level with and parallel
to outfeed table

3.
Check infeed table for level in relation to outfeed table either by
measurement
or
Let teh machine tell you what is wrong. Run piece through jointer (E end
first, mark on timber so you dont get as confused as we are) ...
measure. If out of parallel feed back through jointer opposite end
first
( F end) ... measure. If board now same thickness either side (within
reason) your infeed table is not parallel to outfeed. mmmmmm guess I know
what your doing for the next cpl of hours

you dont need dial indicators ... only implements required to set up
jointer
accuratly is a cpl of pieces of timber. Let the machine talk to you and
tell
you what the prob is rather than trying to find an interpretor to talk to
the machine

Be at one with the machine and 'feel the force'

Flashing on "hey, 3PO, I need you to talk to the jointer and tell me what's
wrong with the infeed table".

wrote in message
oups.com...
I can probably help you out (or at least figure out what's going
wrong).

wrote:
All boards I plane (and I have only worked with 4S softwood pine) will
produce a flat face, but this flat face is always deeper on one end
than the other.

It's hard for me to be sure exactly what you are talking about. To me,
the "ends" of a board are the shorter width. "End grain" is on the
ends of a board. Are you saying that you are jointing a face or an
edge of a board and that you are having trouble keeping it parallel
with the opposite face/edge? Or, are you saying that the depth of the
cut across the width of the board isn't consistent?

Thus, I start with two sides something close to 90deg
and working on edge 1 starts moving the two sides closer to 80deg.

Please don't interchange the terms "sides" or "edge". It makes it very
difficult to follow what you are describing. Use the term "edge" to
describe a narrow side. Use the term "face" to describe a wide side.
If the piece being jointed is square, then they are all faces.

So, are you saying that you are having trouble jointing an edge so that
it is square to a face?

If
I try to correct the problem by on edge two I get even closer to 70deg.

Is "edge two" opposite or adjacent to "edge 1"? See, I just can't
picture what you are talking about. Use "opposite edge" or "adjacent
face".

Obviously one side of the blades/plates/something is lower/higher than
the other but I can't figure it out. My straight edges aren't as
reliable as I'd like so I tried a 1-2-3 block on the out feed with
feeler guages on the infeed to check for differences along the length.

Proper jointer alignment starts with making sure that the knives are
all at the same level as the outfeed table. It could be that this is
your problem, I don't know. Then you want to make sure that the infeed
table is parallel to the outfeed table. It could be that this is your
problem, I don't know. Finally, you want to make sure that the fence
is square with both tables. This could also be your problem.

First, I will have to understand your symptoms. Then I can direct you
through all the steps needed to check each one of the major alignments
on a jointer. You might also find it handy to view the video on this
page:

http://www.ts-aligner.com/jointer.htm

There's another video with different voice-over on this page under the
heading "Using a flat indicator tip to set jointer knives" (which is a
practice which will can lead to the problems that you are suffering).

http://www.ts-aligner.com/alignmentmyths.htm

You'll notice that I advocate the use of a dial indicator. This
eliminates all of the guess work that you are currently finding so
frustrating. It doesn't have to be a TS-Aligner Jr. Any indicator jig
that can point the dial indicator downward will work. It takes
considerable skill to subjectively discern jointer knives using a 123
block and some feeler gages. I certainly can't do it as well as I can
with a dial indicator.

Might I mention I can't get the infeed to the same level as the outfeed
so this is the only way to check for coplanar tables as well. The
feeler guage didn't seem to show any difference between the two in
terms of height but I don't feel as confident as I might if I could
compare the two on a granite surface out in space to make sure that
everything is truly level to 0.0000000001+- inches. Do you see how
nuts this is making me?

Yep. There's another way to do a relative comparison of the two tables
without going juts. The two tables don't have to be at the same level
(in fact, it's easier if they are not). It does involve the use of a
long straight edge and a dial indicator. Here's the setup (photo from
a customer):

http://www.ts-aligner.com/jointertables.jpg

The straight edge being used here is from Lee Valley:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...at=1,240,45313

I would like to think the problem rests in my technique and I've read
the book on technique. I understand snipe (not a problem with me at
this point), I get the concept of planing an edge, then a face then
surface planing opposite face then finishing edge on the joiner.

Hmmm.... Try it this way: Joint a face, then joint an adjcent edge
using the jointed face against the fence. Then use your tablesaw to
rip the opposite edge parallel. And finally use a surface planer to
make the opposite face parallel. It's not generally practical to use a
jointer to make two faces or two edges parallel. It's good for
creating a flat surface (facing) and for squaring two adjcent faces (or
a face to an edge).

I get
the hand over hand, weight transfer from outfeed to infeed idea.

I'm sure you mean "infeed to outfeed" here.

I've
read, get and tried it all and still get these boards that close in
from 90 to 0 degrees.

I just don't understand what this means. How do boards "close in from
90 to 0 degrees"? 90 degrees is square. 0 degrees is flat (no angle).

Last night I jointed 1 inch off a board, worked
until 1:08AM adjusting the blades (lost the allen wrench between the
roller/infeed, took apart the entire machine, rebuilt it, readjusted
blades), felt confident I was getting a flat face/90deg cut, tried it
this morning and same thing.

Go get yourself a low cost dial indicator and I'll help you to figure
out exactly what is wrong without any guess work or frustration.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

Yep, there's definitely some religious fervor in these responses!

True, a dial indicator isn't absolutely needed. But, if you had one,
and had used it to check the alignment of your jointer, then...

1. You wouldn't be so unsure about your jointer knife alignment.
2. You would have found and accurately corrected any possible infeed
table misalignment.
3. You wouldn't have wasted a whole bunch of time and wood trying to
learn "Jointerese" by trial and error.
4. You wouldn't be so frustrated trying to "feel the force" because you
would be able to measure it with a reliable instrument.

People do it both ways successfully. It all depends on how you want to
approach the problem. You can spend $15 on a dial indicator and get
your jointer aligned quickly without any test cuts, trial and error, or
doubts. Or, if your time is absolutely worthless to you, then you can
continue to spend hours (maybe even days) doing more test cuts, making
more adjustments based on what you think the machine is saying to you,
and hoping that the results eventually show some improvement. I think
you've already spent a fair amount of time trying to learn
"Jointerese". How about taking a more intelligent (and less religious)
approach?

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

I had no idea I would spark this much conversation- and useful tips.
If this were 'Who wants to be a millionaire' I believe my lifeline
(i.e. this discussion) strongly believes it's the knives. I am apt to
suspect them, or at least want to check them, first. I don't have a
dial indicator.
Last night I rummaged through every industrial and woodworking supplier
I could to look for dial indicator deals and realized there are quite a
few doo-dads and gizmos that claim to help set the knives. What is sad
is that there isn't a standard practice/device for the operation and
what's sadder is that the jointer I have has no locking mechanism on
the spindle. I don't know that other jointers have this feature since
every advice I've come across talk about finding center and working
from there. It's kind of nuts that manufacturers might build this
machine knowing full well owners may one day have to change the knives
and have to perform a Houdini trick to get the task done right. At
least, one would think, they could put a pin that you could slide to
lock the spindle.

Also, after looking through industrial catalogues (i.e. Enco, MSC) at
metal milling machines I find that accuracy is built into the lowliest
of machines where as manufacturers who build machines for wood allow
much higher tolerances. Yeah, we can sand out imperfections and
materials are less expensive but don't we deserve the same treatment?

Anyway, I will be buying a dial indicator but until that arrives I'll
see what I can do by hand using the methods suggested in this forum. I
have to say I've gotten more out of this forum about jointing than I
have in any woodworking book. In some sense it makes me appreciate the
incident.

Thanks guys and gals! Happy wooding and feel free to add to the
conversation.

"Chrisgiraffe" wrote in message
oups.com...
I had no idea I would spark this much conversation- and useful tips.
If this were 'Who wants to be a millionaire' I believe my lifeline
(i.e. this discussion) strongly believes it's the knives. I am apt to
suspect them, or at least want to check them, first. I don't have a
dial indicator.
Last night I rummaged through every industrial and woodworking supplier
I could to look for dial indicator deals and realized there are quite a
few doo-dads and gizmos that claim to help set the knives. What is sad
is that there isn't a standard practice/device for the operation

On the contrary, there is, and one example URL: was given you. It is the
same technique which almost any standard work on machinery and woodworking
will have, and it reads a carry versus a dial, so there's no lost time in
spite of merchants who sell dials. Only thing a dial will do is read in
thousandths rather than in go/no go. If knowing how far you're off is
important, by all means get a dial.

As to square, they make a number of tools by that name, you merely have to
use them. Once again, they are go/no go calibrated, which is certainly
adequate


and
what's sadder is that the jointer I have has no locking mechanism on
the spindle. I don't know that other jointers have this feature since
every advice I've come across talk about finding center and working
from there. It's kind of nuts that manufacturers might build this
machine knowing full well owners may one day have to change the knives
and have to perform a Houdini trick to get the task done right. At
least, one would think, they could put a pin that you could slide to
lock the spindle.

If locking the spindle is important to you, though I cannot figure why,
lower the infeed table, clamp a stop on it and insert a piece of wood
between your stop and the leading edge of the knives. It's go/no go again,
but it will hold each knife in the same relative position. Some people hone
knives on the jointer, and use such a technique to ensure the same sharpness
angle or microbevel on each knife. I've not found it worthwhile.


Thanks guys and gals! Happy wooding and feel free to add to the
conversation.

In article , "George" wrote:

If locking the spindle is important to you, though I cannot figure why,

When setting knife height with a dial indicator, it makes the job easier if
you can keep the head from rotating once the knife is at top dead center...

lower the infeed table, clamp a stop on it and insert a piece of wood
between your stop and the leading edge of the knives. It's go/no go again,
but it will hold each knife in the same relative position.

... and that's one way to do it. Sort of. That prevents the head from rotating
forward, but it's still free to rotate backward.

Another is to clamp a block of wood to the fence; of course, that suffers from
the same deficiency.

A rare-earth magnet attached to the block might keep the head from rotating
backward, though....hmmmm..... think I'll give that a try next time I need to
adjust the jointer knives.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Hi Doug,

This is what I do. I bridge a magnet between the cutterhead and the
infeed table. Holds the cutter head pretty still but it's not locked
down so tight that it can not be adjusted. Give it a try.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com


Doug Miller wrote:
A rare-earth magnet attached to the block might keep the head from rotating
backward, though....hmmmm..... think I'll give that a try next time I need to
adjust the jointer knives.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Chrisgiraffe wrote:
Last night I rummaged through every industrial and woodworking supplier
I could to look for dial indicator deals and realized there are quite a
few doo-dads and gizmos that claim to help set the knives.

Yes there are! The existence of these products is a testament to the
failure and frustration that people have using traditional trial and
error methods. A few are good. Most reflect a very poor understanding
of machinery alignment and Metrology. You don't really need any of
them.

What is sad
is that there isn't a standard practice/device for the operation

The standard practice which reflects a good understanding of machinery
alignment and Metrology is contained in the link that I provided
earlier in this thread:

http://www.ts-aligner.com/jointer.htm

or:

http://www.ts-aligner.com/alignmentmyths.htm

The standard device needed for this operation is the dial indicator.
You don't need to have a TS-Aligner Jr. to do this. You can perform
this technique with any dial indicator jig that can point the dial
indicator down. A standard magnetic base is fine or you can make your
own from wood. Unfortunately, there are a few nay sayers in the group
who would insist that you must do it the hard way (trial and error) and
make it sound like getting a dial indicator is a monumental mistake.

and
what's sadder is that the jointer I have has no locking mechanism on
the spindle. I don't know that other jointers have this feature since
every advice I've come across talk about finding center and working
from there. It's kind of nuts that manufacturers might build this
machine knowing full well owners may one day have to change the knives
and have to perform a Houdini trick to get the task done right. At
least, one would think, they could put a pin that you could slide to
lock the spindle.

I agree, one would think that such a thing would be possible. After
all, top dead center will always be located in the same place for each
knife. I bridge a high strength magnet between the side of the
cutterhead and the side of the infeed table. This holds the knife in
place while doing the alignment but doesn't prevent fine adjustment.
You can also clamp a board between the motor and cutterhead pulleys.
I've done it this way but it wasn't very convenient.

Also, after looking through industrial catalogues (i.e. Enco, MSC) at
metal milling machines I find that accuracy is built into the lowliest
of machines where as manufacturers who build machines for wood allow
much higher tolerances. Yeah, we can sand out imperfections and
materials are less expensive but don't we deserve the same treatment?

Alas, as you have noticed, most woodworking machinery is built for the
lowest possible cost and the least acceptable accuracy. And, most
woodworkers (especially the trial and error crowd) never notice the
difference. They can't fool the machinists into buying such poor
machinery but they have many woodworkers eating out of their hands.
Once you learn how to use a dial indicator, you will be a much more
discerning buyer (eating from your own plate!).

Anyway, I will be buying a dial indicator but until that arrives I'll
see what I can do by hand using the methods suggested in this forum.

It will definitely keep you busy.

I
have to say I've gotten more out of this forum about jointing than I
have in any woodworking book. In some sense it makes me appreciate the
incident.

Yes, it's a good place to come and discuss such things. You do have to
wade through the opinions and sift out wannabes and dogmatics.

Thanks guys and gals! Happy wooding and feel free to add to the
conversation.

You're welcome. Feel free to send me email if you have any questions.

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

wrote in message
oups.com...
Chrisgiraffe wrote:
Last night I rummaged through every industrial and woodworking supplier
I could to look for dial indicator deals and realized there are quite a
few doo-dads and gizmos that claim to help set the knives.

Yes there are! The existence of these products is a testament to the
failure and frustration that people have using traditional trial and
error methods. A few are good. Most reflect a very poor understanding
of machinery alignment and Metrology. You don't really need any of
them.

No, he needs your product that reflects a poor understanding of machinery
alignment and metrology instead.

Hint--putting down the competition is a quick way to turn off a lot of
potential customers. Why should we believe your assertion that the other
guy's product is improperly designed instead of believing his assertion that
yours is? At least the other guy isn't coming in here and whoring his
product at every opportunity and putting down everybody who uses an
alternative method.

What is sad
is that there isn't a standard practice/device for the operation

The standard practice which reflects a good understanding of machinery
alignment and Metrology is contained in the link that I provided
earlier in this thread:

http://www.ts-aligner.com/jointer.htm

or:

http://www.ts-aligner.com/alignmentmyths.htm

The standard device needed for this operation is the dial indicator.
You don't need to have a TS-Aligner Jr. to do this. You can perform
this technique with any dial indicator jig that can point the dial
indicator down. A standard magnetic base is fine or you can make your
own from wood. Unfortunately, there are a few nay sayers in the group
who would insist that you must do it the hard way (trial and error) and
make it sound like getting a dial indicator is a monumental mistake.

If that is "the standard practice" then please provide a reference to the
standard and to a description of the process by which it was established as
the standard. If you can't do that then it's not a "standard practice",
it's _your_ practice and since you are in the business of selling gadgets
whose nature is such that you would benefit by having it become "standard
practice" forgive me if I take your assertions that this is some kind of
standard with a large dose of salt.

It seems like it is one sensible way to go about things--if you had kept it
at that I would have little quarrel with you but you don't, you have to go
claiming that your wishful thinking is some kind of "standard".

As for "nay sayers" who insist that "you must do it the hard way (trial and
error)", what leads you to believe that doing this without a dial indicator
is "trial and error" or "the hard way"? You seem to want to claim that
anybody who does things differently from you is doing wrong, without
bothering to find out what methods they use and to evaluate those methods
first. That, in combination with the fact that you have a monetary interest
in having people do it _your_ way, makes you look like a the more obnoxious
kind of salesman, the one who makes the mistake of putting down his
potential customers when they don't instantly accept his claims about his
product.

You might want to read some Zig Ziglar--he addresses the mistakes that you
are making here with your sales pitch. Or just hire a real marketing guy
and YOU keep off the net before you antagonize so many people that they
start resisting your product on general principle.

and
what's sadder is that the jointer I have has no locking mechanism on
the spindle. I don't know that other jointers have this feature since
every advice I've come across talk about finding center and working
from there. It's kind of nuts that manufacturers might build this
machine knowing full well owners may one day have to change the knives
and have to perform a Houdini trick to get the task done right. At
least, one would think, they could put a pin that you could slide to
lock the spindle.

I agree, one would think that such a thing would be possible. After
all, top dead center will always be located in the same place for each
knife. I bridge a high strength magnet between the side of the
cutterhead and the side of the infeed table. This holds the knife in
place while doing the alignment but doesn't prevent fine adjustment.
You can also clamp a board between the motor and cutterhead pulleys.
I've done it this way but it wasn't very convenient.

Also, after looking through industrial catalogues (i.e. Enco, MSC) at
metal milling machines I find that accuracy is built into the lowliest
of machines where as manufacturers who build machines for wood allow
much higher tolerances. Yeah, we can sand out imperfections and
materials are less expensive but don't we deserve the same treatment?

Alas, as you have noticed, most woodworking machinery is built for the
lowest possible cost and the least acceptable accuracy.

I have noticed no such thing. Would you care to back up that assertion or
are you just blowing more hot air? What are you going to do for your next
act, start selling a $1500 jigsaw on the basis that Bosch makes imprecise
junk?

And, most
woodworkers (especially the trial and error crowd) never notice the
difference.

And yet they produce quite nice work regardless. Perhaps the machinery is
in fact precise enough for their needs? And who would you classify as "the
trial and error crowd"? Have some names?

They can't fool the machinists into buying such poor
machinery but they have many woodworkers eating out of their hands.

Who does this? And which machinists routinely buy machinery more precise
than is needed to do the work that puts food on their tables?

Once you learn how to use a dial indicator, you will be a much more
discerning buyer (eating from your own plate!).

Personally I've been using dial indicators since some time in the late '60s.
It's a useful tool for many purposes, but it is not the only tool useful for
setting up machinery and to argue that the alternatives are a dial indicator
or "trial and error" is at best disengenuous and at worst a deliberate lie.
And quite frankly at this point you have shilled your overpriced crap enough
that I am prepared to think the worst of you.

Anyway, I will be buying a dial indicator but until that arrives I'll
see what I can do by hand using the methods suggested in this forum.

It will definitely keep you busy.

His big problem seems to be that his machine has no provision for locking at
TDC. The dial indicator won't provide such a lock.

I
have to say I've gotten more out of this forum about jointing than I
have in any woodworking book. In some sense it makes me appreciate the
incident.

Yes, it's a good place to come and discuss such things. You do have to
wade through the opinions and sift out wannabes and dogmatics.

Well, now, the only "wannabee and dogmatic" I see here is you, with your
wannabee "standard" and your dogmatic insistence that the only alternative
to doing things _your_ way is "trial and error".

Thanks guys and gals! Happy wooding and feel free to add to the
conversation.

You're welcome. Feel free to send me email if you have any questions.

Oh, by the way, plonk you and your little ts-aligner too. Personally at
this point if you _gave_ me one I'd throw the pieces in the scrap bin to cut
up for robot parts.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
The standard device needed for this operation is the dial indicator.
You don't need to have a TS-Aligner Jr. to do this. You can perform
this technique with any dial indicator jig that can point the dial
indicator down. A standard magnetic base is fine or you can make your
own from wood. Unfortunately, there are a few nay sayers in the group
who would insist that you must do it the hard way (trial and error) and
make it sound like getting a dial indicator is a monumental mistake.

If that is "the standard practice" then please provide a reference to the
standard and to a description of the process by which it was established
as the standard. If you can't do that then it's not a "standard
practice", it's _your_ practice and since you are in the business of
selling gadgets whose nature is such that you would benefit by having it
become "standard practice" forgive me if I take your assertions that this
is some kind of standard with a large dose of salt.

Before getting your shorts all in a knot you should READ and understand what
he actually said.....he did not specifically hustle his own product, in fact
he said any dial indicator would suffice.....his provided link/ video
specifically said "The video features the use of my TS-Aligner Jr. product.
You can perform many of these alignments and adjustments by making your own
jig, a low cost dial indicator attached to a stick." .....how you can take
fault with that is quite beyond rational.....Rod

You can go down the dial indicator track if you want to go that way. I just
find it a lot of unnessary effort. And by the way I have a shop full of dial
indicators and micrometers but I still do it the same way as the tradies
have done it for centuries.

A simple tool to do exactly the same job just as quick
a straight edge. be it a straight piece of timber. a small ruler of either
plastic or steel doesnt really matter. I can hear ppl shuddering now at the
thought of using a steel rule but if used correctly it will do no damage
whatsoever to the blades, if it does buy a set of better quality blades.

To find top dead centre of knife rotation
Place rule on rear table.
start to rotate knife by hand
as soon as it hits the straight edge (remember you are placing no pressure
on the straight edge it is just sitting there)... place a mark on the fence
keep rotating cutter until knife clears straight edge ..... place another
mark on fence
measure half way between these 2 points
align knife to middle mark ... and you are now on TDC

OK now to set blade height
bring each knife to TDC and adjust to straight edge. Knives are parrellel to
and level with outfeed table. It will take you longer to undo the nuts on
the cutter than it will to set the knives. You will 'feel' the knife on the
straight edge. If a little unsure rotate cutter by hand straight edge should
not move more than 1/32", you dont have to measure it you can see the
straight edge move and guess how much. If your hearing is better than your
eyesight all you have to do is listen to machine and it will tell you when
its right. You can hear the knife scraping the straightedge. Without knowing
the dia of cutter block to do exact calculations this will be within a thou
A variation to this that some ppl use is basically the same method as when
you are finding TDC. The straight edge should move the same distance on each
end of the knife and on each knife. Only downside to doing it this way is
that you will then have to adjust the outfeed table to match the knife
height.

The first few times you set up a set of knives it could be a little fiddly
but once you get the feel of it it only takes a cpl of minutes to adjust a
set of knives. The hardest part is usually learning how much to move the
knife. I easiest way is to just nip up the 2 outside bolts on cutter just
enough so knife doesnt move. Set the knife a little high and tap back down
with a piece of wood to set correct height. Tighten bolts and recheck
measurement.


"Chrisgiraffe" wrote in message
oups.com...
I had no idea I would spark this much conversation- and useful tips.
If this were 'Who wants to be a millionaire' I believe my lifeline
(i.e. this discussion) strongly believes it's the knives. I am apt to
suspect them, or at least want to check them, first. I don't have a
dial indicator.
Last night I rummaged through every industrial and woodworking supplier
I could to look for dial indicator deals and realized there are quite a
few doo-dads and gizmos that claim to help set the knives. What is sad
is that there isn't a standard practice/device for the operation and
what's sadder is that the jointer I have has no locking mechanism on
the spindle. I don't know that other jointers have this feature since
every advice I've come across talk about finding center and working
from there. It's kind of nuts that manufacturers might build this
machine knowing full well owners may one day have to change the knives
and have to perform a Houdini trick to get the task done right. At
least, one would think, they could put a pin that you could slide to
lock the spindle.

Also, after looking through industrial catalogues (i.e. Enco, MSC) at
metal milling machines I find that accuracy is built into the lowliest
of machines where as manufacturers who build machines for wood allow
much higher tolerances. Yeah, we can sand out imperfections and
materials are less expensive but don't we deserve the same treatment?

Anyway, I will be buying a dial indicator but until that arrives I'll
see what I can do by hand using the methods suggested in this forum. I
have to say I've gotten more out of this forum about jointing than I
have in any woodworking book. In some sense it makes me appreciate the
incident.

Thanks guys and gals! Happy wooding and feel free to add to the
conversation.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Yep, there's definitely some religious fervor in these responses!

True, a dial indicator isn't absolutely needed. But, if you had one,
and had used it to check the alignment of your jointer, then...

1. You wouldn't be so unsure about your jointer knife alignment.
I am always 100%sure about my alignment. If it out the jointer tells me so.
That's one of the reasons we were given eyes and ears

2. You would have found and accurately corrected any possible infeed
table misalignment.
3. You wouldn't have wasted a whole bunch of time and wood trying to
learn "Jointerese" by trial and error.

He has already wasted timber doing this. Now he just has to be able to
understand what has been said to him. One pass would heve been enough of a
test if you can see what it is telling you

4. You wouldn't be so frustrated trying to "feel the force" because you
would be able to measure it with a reliable instrument.

But what happens on the day he has to do a job that his life depends on
worse still SHMBO says it has to be straight and square it I'll cut your
???? off and he has just droped his dial indicator in shear terror.... woops
goodbye charlie.

People do it both ways successfully. It all depends on how you want to
approach the problem.

There are always numerous ways to approach a problem. The big secret to
solving problems and a good tradie is being able to think logically .... see
what is happening and then you can see how to fix it.

You can spend $15 on a dial indicator and get
your jointer aligned quickly without any test cuts, trial and error, or
doubts. Or, if your time is absolutely worthless to you,

Well actually I currently charge my time out at $55/hr so I am certainly
not cheap
then you can
continue to spend hours (maybe even days) doing more test cuts, making
more adjustments based on what you think the machine is saying to you,

He just hasnt seen or heard what is happening yet. Which is really more on
the side of experiance using and understanding a jointer. in time to come
with enough experience he wouldn't even have to think about it .... he will
see/hear what the jointer is telling him.

and hoping that the results eventually show some improvement. I think
you've already spent a fair amount of time trying to learn
"Jointerese". How about taking a more intelligent (and less religious)
approach?

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...
In article , "George"
wrote:

If locking the spindle is important to you, though I cannot figure why,

When setting knife height with a dial indicator, it makes the job easier
if
you can keep the head from rotating once the knife is at top dead
center...

lower the infeed table, clamp a stop on it and insert a piece of wood
between your stop and the leading edge of the knives. It's go/no go
again,
but it will hold each knife in the same relative position.

.. and that's one way to do it. Sort of. That prevents the head from
rotating
forward, but it's still free to rotate backward.

Another is to clamp a block of wood to the fence; of course, that suffers
from
the same deficiency.

A rare-earth magnet attached to the block might keep the head from
rotating
backward, though....hmmmm..... think I'll give that a try next time I need
to
adjust the jointer knives.

If you don't have jackscrews or springs won't suffice, try cow magnets.
They're long enough to get a good reference to the outfeed. Principle
behind that other device sold for adjusting, the "magnaset."

Nice thing about adjusting by the "carry" or touch method is that it
promotes understanding of the operation of the machine itself, not the tool
used to set it. True of almost all the old methods of adjustment. You
don't have to learn a secondary device's tricks to get the primary going.

One thing I _won't_ rely on is the spider they send you with your Grizz
jointer. I've worked three, and the cutterhead isn't milled or set close
enough in its bearings to make it worthwhile. Even after you've reworked it
and get the fence and guard ends color coded, it seems you can only get
_two_ knives set properly, so you might as well pitch it. Yes, I know that a
feeler gage would solve the problem, but once again I'm screwing around with
the secondary device rather than the primary. The one on my old
Rockwell/Invicta planer is an instant good.

J. Clarke wrote:
wrote in message

The standard device needed for this operation is the dial indicator.
You don't need to have a TS-Aligner Jr. to do this. You can perform
this technique with any dial indicator jig that can point the dial
indicator down. A standard magnetic base is fine or you can make your
own from wood. Unfortunately, there are a few nay sayers in the group
who would insist that you must do it the hard way (trial and error) and
make it sound like getting a dial indicator is a monumental mistake.

If that is "the standard practice" then please provide a reference to the
standard and to a description of the process by which it was established as
the standard. If you can't do that then it's not a "standard practice",
it's _your_ practice and since you are in the business of selling gadgets
whose nature is such that you would benefit by having it become "standard
practice" forgive me if I take your assertions that this is some kind of
standard with a large dose of salt.

He's explaining how you can do it yourself for pennies without buying
any of his stuff... G

Mr. Clark. I read through your message very carefully and have
prepared a response which I doubt will please you. However, I would
wish that you read through it and consider it as carefully as I have
considered your words so that you (and other interested readers) might
gain a better understanding of what you have said.

J. Clarke wrote:
No, he needs your product that reflects a poor understanding of machinery
alignment and metrology instead.

Well, that's just not a very good characterization of anything that has
happened in this thread. Nobody has suggested that the OP should buy a
TS-Aligner product. I even assured him that he could do the task
without one. I believe that your representation strays a bit from
actual fact.

Hint--putting down the competition is a quick way to turn off a lot of
potential customers.

I wasn't trying to "turn off" or "turn on" potential customers. I was
trying to help the OP solve his problem in the best possible way. And,
by commenting on the large array of devices being sold to solve this
particular problem, I'm hoping that others can be educated as well.

Why should we believe your assertion that the other
guy's product is improperly designed instead of believing his assertion that
yours is?

You don't have to believe anything I say. An intelligent person will
educate himself on the topic and make up his own mind about which
products are properly designed. Perhaps this didn't occur to you?

At least the other guy isn't coming in here and whoring his
product at every opportunity and putting down everybody who uses an
alternative method.

What you don't know about "the other guy" would make you ashamed of
ever having such a vile notion. Again, let me invite you to educate
yourself - it's always better to speak from actual knowledge and
experience. Go and investigate all the makers of the various alignment
tools. You certainly know very little about me and I suspect that you
know absolutely nothing about the others. Then report back to the
group on what you find. Specifically, enlighten us on the
capabilities, expertise, and competency of each maker. Tell us about
their manufacturing capabilities, quality control, attention to detail,
commitment to the customer, etc. Elaborate a bit by explaining exactly
what you think people would learn from "the other guys" if they were
active participants of this NG who were as open, honest, and blunt as I
have been.

If that is "the standard practice" then please provide a reference to the
standard and to a description of the process by which it was established as
the standard. If you can't do that then it's not a "standard practice",
it's _your_ practice and since you are in the business of selling gadgets
whose nature is such that you would benefit by having it become "standard
practice" forgive me if I take your assertions that this is some kind of
standard with a large dose of salt.

Hmmmmm......you really do make it difficult for me to answer in a calm
and patient manner. Here goes...

The use of dial indicators to align and adjust machinery is so
universal and pervasive that you really tip your hand when you question
its validity. This isn't my practice or my method. I'm not trying to
push a new set of standard practices on the industry. My products are
simply fixtures for dial indicators. I have designed them so that
standard practices and methods for machinery alignment and adjustment
are easily applied to common woodworking machinery. People have been
using these practices and methods for more tha a century. When you
cast doubt on the universal acceptance of these practices and methods,
you reveal a glaring lack of knowledge on the subject.

It would be quite valuable for you to educate yourself on this topic.
Perhaps you might ride along with a machinery technician for a day or
two - a professional with formal training who maintains machinery for a
living. Or, maybe you could spend some time with the people who design
and build machinery. Go and visit a factory where machinery is not
only manufactured, but aligned and maintained. Or, how about visiting
a local machine shop and getting their perspective on machinery
alignment and adjustment. If you are really pressed for time maybe you
could just pick up a book on Metrology. Here's a good choice for you.
It's an easy read, written for an introductory course on the topic:

http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-D...e=UTF8&s=books

And, if you can't read a book, then maybe you could look it up in some
magazines. I'm at somewhat of a loss to know exactly why this sort of
information, which literally saturates the industrial world, hasn't
managed to filter down to your particular corner of existence.

Even the hobbyist magazines and books address the topic on a regular
basis. The first article I saw was in FWW #24 (Sep/Oct 1980) entitled
"The Dial Indicator" by R. Bruce Hoadley. Included in the article were
instructions about jointer alignment. That was 26 years ago buddy! By
1991 I had been using dial indicators to align my machinery for several
years. I had already built a prototype of the first TS-Aligner. When
FWW #87 (March/April 1991) came out it gave me a real kick in the
pants. In it was an article entitled "Using Dial Indicators and
Calipers" by Robert Vaughan. With my butt finally in gear, TS-Aligner
appeared in an advertisement in FWW #90 (Sep/Oct 1991). It was the
first commercially made dial indicator jig for woodworkers but I was
not the first to apply these century old principles to woodworking
machinery.

It seems like it is one sensible way to go about things--if you had kept it
at that I would have little quarrel with you but you don't, you have to go
claiming that your wishful thinking is some kind of "standard".

You flatter me no end! I wish I could take the credit but I didn't
come up with this stuff. These are universally accepted practices and
standards for Metrology, Engineering, and machinery alignment. I just
designed my products to take advantage of them. This is what seperates
my products from other devices on the market. Most of them are
designed by people who suffer from the same lack of knowledge and
experience that you seem to exhibit. They goof around in their home
woodworking shop for a few years and suddenly they think that they are
experts. So they grace the world with some goofy device which gets
molded in plastic and sold by woodworking dealers with a 10x markup.
My greatest frustration comes when people end up wasting their money on
these goofy things and get sorely disapointed by its lack of
performance. They incorrectly assume that all such devices are
similarly worthless.

As for "nay sayers" who insist that "you must do it the hard way (trial and
error)", what leads you to believe that doing this without a dial indicator
is "trial and error" or "the hard way"?

Again, let me suggest that you educate yourself. Go get a dial
indicator and try it. Until you try it, you have absolutely no
authority on the topic. And, don't just set yourself up for failure by
doing everything wrong. Make every effort to understand what is
happening and why things need to be done in a certain manner. Take
time to learn something new and try to see the advantage that a little
knowledge can give you.

And, please re-read the thread and tell me why I characterized certain
respondants as "nay sayers". Did I start off by saying "don't use the
trial and error method"? Or was it someone else who, after reading my
message, suggested that a dial indicator wasn't needed?

You seem to want to claim that
anybody who does things differently from you is doing wrong, without
bothering to find out what methods they use and to evaluate those methods
first.

I can very easily see how it might seem that way to you. Again,
re-read the thread and find each and every instance where I said that
an alternative method was wrong or that it wouldn't work. I think
you'll come up with exactly zero. Somehow you have turned this around
in your mind to make it look like I have attacked other methods. In
truth, I am defending the use of a dial indicator *AFTER* someone else
dismissed its use as unnecessary.

Please try to get a slightly larger perspective on the topic. I didn't
just make this stuff up. I didn't just discover dial indicators
yesterday. I've been "goofing" around with woodworking and woodworking
machines for more than 30 years. I've tried every single method that
has been suggested in this thread. I have all the gadgets (including
the goofy magnets). And, I didn't just try these once or twice and
then give up. There was a time when I did my best to put these devices
and methods to use in my shop. But, after years of uncertainty and
frustration I was determined to learn about better methods. I think it
was this determination that encouraged the machinist friend of mine to
teach me. If I had presented him with your attitude then I most
certainly would have been laughed out of his shop. Some people do not
have particular knowledge but are eager to learn. Others refuse
knowledge and shut their mind to new ideas. Your task is to choose
which category you wish to live in.

That, in combination with the fact that you have a monetary interest
in having people do it _your_ way, makes you look like a the more obnoxious
kind of salesman, the one who makes the mistake of putting down his
potential customers when they don't instantly accept his claims about his
product.

When I suggest that someone adopt an intelligent method by using an
accurate measurement instrument like the dial indicator, I'm not
promoting "my way" of doing things. I don't have any monetary interest
in telling someone to go out and get a low cost indicator and try it
for themselves. Stoutman didn't buy an Aligner but I defended his jig
from nay-sayers. The OP in this thread didn't buy an Aligner. Heck, I
told him that he didn't need to buy an Aligner. But I still defended
his decision to buy a dial indicator. Yes, I "DEFENDED" their use of
what is definitely a competitive alternative. Not exactly the most
fiscally expedient thing to do.

You might want to read some Zig Ziglar--he addresses the mistakes that you
are making here with your sales pitch. Or just hire a real marketing guy
and YOU keep off the net before you antagonize so many people that they
start resisting your product on general principle.

This isn't a sales pitch. This is evangelism. I'm trying my best to
enlighten individuals about intelligent ways of aligning and adjusting
their woodworking machinery. Eventually they might see the value of my
products and buy one. But, that's not my goal here in the NG. I just
want to save people from the ignorance which leads to "trial and error"
hell. Some will listen. Some will prefer ignorance, cover their
ears, and scream "la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-". Again, which are
you?

Alas, as you have noticed, most woodworking machinery is built for the
lowest possible cost and the least acceptable accuracy.

I have noticed no such thing. Would you care to back up that assertion or
are you just blowing more hot air? What are you going to do for your next
act, start selling a $1500 jigsaw on the basis that Bosch makes imprecise
junk?

I'll just have to ask you to educate yourself again. Go and visit a
machine shop. Compare the machines they have to what you know of
woodworking machinery. Look at the scales, crank the handles, turn the
knobs, listen to the motor, check out the massive castings, the finely
ground surfaces, etc.

And, most
woodworkers (especially the trial and error crowd) never notice the
difference.

And yet they produce quite nice work regardless. Perhaps the machinery is
in fact precise enough for their needs? And who would you classify as "the
trial and error crowd"? Have some names?

I never said that trial and error doesn't work. I never said that a
person can't produce nice work if they use trial and error. I never
said that a person has to have the best possible tools in order to do
good work. You misunderstand completely.

Let me elaborate on what I said so that you can better understand it.
People who believe that a lot of goofing around (trial and error) is
neccessary in order to get good results will naturally find nothing
wrong with a crappy machine which requires a lot of goofing around.


They can't fool the machinists into buying such poor
machinery but they have many woodworkers eating out of their hands.

Who does this?

Woodworking machinery manufacturers. Some to a greater degree, some to
a lesser degree.

And which machinists routinely buy machinery more precise
than is needed to do the work that puts food on their tables?

Those that anticipate a future need might. You miss the point entirely
(and really stretch my patience). A machinist won't waste his money on
a machine that requires a whole bunch of stupid tips and tricks to get
good results. He buys a machine that helps him to make efficient use
of his time (i.e. avoid goofing around with stupid nonsense like test
cuts).

Personally I've been using dial indicators since some time in the late '60s.

Pardon me Mr. Clarke, but it doesn't show. Not even in the slightest.
And your behavior in this message, (distorting what was said, ranting
against me and my products) leads me to believe that you feel
personally threatened by the suggestion that a dial indicator is a good
solution for machinery alignment and adjustment. Until I see some more
intelligent discourse from you which reflects some actual knowledge on
the topic, I will continue to believe this.

It's a useful tool for many purposes, but it is not the only tool useful for
setting up machinery

I never said that it was. Again, you have turned this whole thing
around in your head.

and to argue that the alternatives are a dial indicator
or "trial and error" is at best disengenuous and at worst a deliberate lie.

Agreed. Who said that? I don't remember anybody saying this. Perhaps
you've overstated your case a bit.

And quite frankly at this point you have shilled your overpriced crap enough
that I am prepared to think the worst of you.

And, quite frankly, it's difficult for me to remain patient with you.
The phrases running through my mind right now...suffice it to say that
this statement is about three to four hundred million light years over
the top, don't you think? Get a grip Mr. Clarke. This borders on
libel.

His big problem seems to be that his machine has no provision for locking at
TDC. The dial indicator won't provide such a lock.

Hmmmm..... I think that his biggest problem is the proper alignment of
his jointer. He's been trying to use all the traditional methods but
they aren't working for him. He is uncertain and very frustrated. The
dial indicator will definitely help him.

Well, now, the only "wannabee and dogmatic" I see here is you, with your
wannabee "standard" and your dogmatic insistence that the only alternative
to doing things _your_ way is "trial and error".

Again, this is one of those things that you should probably be ashamed
of having said. It really reflects poorly on your intellect, making
you appear much more ignorant that I believe you are. I really don't
know anything about your experience or knowledge so I'm not going to
make any rash judgements about you. I would suggest that you know as
much about me and should refrain as well.

Oh, by the way, plonk you and your little ts-aligner too. Personally at
this point if you _gave_ me one I'd throw the pieces in the scrap bin to cut
up for robot parts.

Well, I probably would never try to sell you one either. At least not
in your current state of mind. Right now you are just not my kind of
customer. I'm not interested in people who lose control like this when
they get threatened by something as simple as a dial indicator. You
really have gone off the deep end turning things around and
manufacturing all sorts of ideas and statements which nobody ever said.
My door is always open to you if you decide to calm down and be
reasonable (and educate yourself a bit).

Ed Bennett

http://www.ts-aligner.com