I haven't made many small wooden boxes (ie., Recipe Boxes, Jewelry Boxes
etc.)
I am starting a jewelry box for my daughter.
I can't see anyway of not glueing the lid top to the four lid sides without
glueing across the grain.
Can someone tell me the rule here.

"Tom H" wrote in message
et...
I haven't made many small wooden boxes (ie., Recipe Boxes, Jewelry Boxes
etc.)
I am starting a jewelry box for my daughter.
I can't see anyway of not glueing the lid top to the four lid sides
without glueing across the grain.
Can someone tell me the rule here.


Dado it in and use no glue in the dado. Like the panel in a raised panel
door.

Tom H wrote:
I haven't made many small wooden boxes (ie., Recipe Boxes, Jewelry Boxes
etc.)
I am starting a jewelry box for my daughter.
I can't see anyway of not glueing the lid top to the four lid sides without
glueing across the grain.
Can someone tell me the rule here.

Tom,
I can't tell you a rule, but I've managed to get away with cross-grain
gluing where the cross-grain part is up to about 6 inches wide. I
tried it once on a panel about 24 inches wide and the results were
disastrous. I'm sure the answer will vary with species and humidity
swing.

DonkeyHody
"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from poor
judgement."

Veneer plywood?

Tom H wrote:

I haven't made many small wooden boxes (ie., Recipe Boxes, Jewelry
Boxes etc.)
I am starting a jewelry box for my daughter.
I can't see anyway of not glueing the lid top to the four lid
sides without glueing across the grain.
Can someone tell me the rule here.


I can't speak with authority on the matter, but I can tell you what I
would do... I'd figure a jewlery box lid was rather small (maybe
9"x12"?) and cross-grain gluing would matter little here. I would also
use polyurethane glue as it's tougher than regular wood glue.

Like Leo said, make a floating panel out of both the top and bottom. If
you have a bandsaw, you can make the top and bottom match. I usually
leave about 1/16 inch gap to account for wood movement across the cross
grain, and less than that for long grain. For panels around 16 inches,
I will leave 1/8 inch.
robo hippy

robo hippy wrote:

Like Leo said, make a floating panel out of both the top and
bottom. If you have a bandsaw, you can make the top and bottom
match. I usually leave about 1/16 inch gap to account for wood
movement across the cross grain, and less than that for long
grain. For panels around 16 inches, I will leave 1/8 inch.
robo hippy


I have a question for you. You say that in this instance you would be
concerned about cross-grain gluing and would recommend a floating
panel. Fair enough.

Let's assume that if the jewlery box were 1" square, you would NOT
make a floating panel and just glue the top on. Given that, it stands
to reason that somewhere between 9" or so and 1", is your belief that
cross-grain gluing ceases to be a problem.

Can you tell me where that point is? At what length do you believe it
ceases to become a problem as a practical matter?

Joe Barta

Tom H wrote:
I haven't made many small wooden boxes (ie., Recipe Boxes, Jewelry Boxes
etc.)
I am starting a jewelry box for my daughter.
I can't see anyway of not glueing the lid top to the four lid sides without
glueing across the grain.
Can someone tell me the rule here.



May I be so bold as to suggest Box Making basics out of this group?
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...98&cat=1,46096

I have adapted a few of his designs to my needs. He covers the basics --
and the complexities -- very well.


It really is quite good. Without knowing your intended construction
style it is a little tough to make a suggestion.

If this book or another good one doesn't answer your questions in a few
minutes -- I'll eat the front cover -- as long as I can add salt and pepper.



--
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it.” George Bernard Shaw

"Tom H" wrote

I haven't made many small wooden boxes (ie., Recipe Boxes, Jewelry Boxes
etc.)
I am starting a jewelry box for my daughter.
I can't see anyway of not glueing the lid top to the four lid sides
without glueing across the grain.
Can someone tell me the rule here.

Hardly for beginners, but for the time being there happens to be a drawing
that includes a panelled lid for a jewellery box at:

http://www.amgron.clara.net/gwonly/index.htm

You'll need to download a pdf file, viz:

Drawings for Delving Into Detail, Issue 163

Jeff G

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net

"Joe Barta" wrote in message
.. .

Let's assume that if the jewlery box were 1" square, you would NOT
make a floating panel and just glue the top on. Given that, it stands
to reason that somewhere between 9" or so and 1", is your belief that
cross-grain gluing ceases to be a problem.

Can you tell me where that point is? At what length do you believe it
ceases to become a problem as a practical matter?


AFAIK there is no written rule however the answer to that question is more
dependent on climate conditions and the variation of those climate changes.
Basically, with experience you will find a rule of thumb that you are
comfortable with.

Joe Barta wrote:

Let's assume that if the jewlery box were 1" square, you would NOT
make a floating panel and just glue the top on. Given that, it stands
to reason that somewhere between 9" or so and 1", is your belief that
cross-grain gluing ceases to be a problem.

Can you tell me where that point is? At what length do you believe it
ceases to become a problem as a practical matter?

Joe (and Tom),
Both of you asked essentially the same question, but I notice that
nobody has given you a definitive answer. That's because no one can,
given the broad scope of the question.

All wood shrinks and swells with changes in moisture content which is
driven by relative humidity. All wood moves more tangetially (around
the circumference) than radially (from the center of the tree out) but
hardly at all lengthwise. So, a flatsawn board will change more than a
quartersawn board of the same species. Then, some species change
dimensions more than twice as much as others.

And we haven't even addressed the question of how much change in
relative humidity you expect to see. Some of our houses see huge
seasonal variations in relative humidity, and some stay nearly the same
year round.

Then there's the question of glue. Some glues will allow a little
"creep" without failing, while others hold fast until the wood splits.

The folks at the USDA Forest Products Lab are trying to interject some
science into our art of working with wood. You can get coefficients of
expansion for different species and other good information he
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fp...tr113/ch12.pdf

However, this informations still doesn't tell you how much movement a
particular species will tolerate before it splits or buckles when
constrained by being glued to another piece with the grain running
crossways.

One of the things that makes woodworking interesting to me is that it
still remains somewhat of a black art, subject to many variables
imposed by the woodworking gods that be.

DonkeyHody
"I'd rather expect the best of people and be wrong than expect the
worst and be right."

MORE INFORMATION:

The top in question is 6.75 x 11.75.
The wood 1/2" is quarter sawn cherry.

"Tom H" wrote in message
et...
I haven't made many small wooden boxes (ie., Recipe Boxes, Jewelry Boxes
etc.)
I am starting a jewelry box for my daughter.
I can't see anyway of not glueing the lid top to the four lid sides
without glueing across the grain.
Can someone tell me the rule here.

I would say that for a box 2 inches wide, I wouldn't worry much about
wood movenent. Above 4 inches I would. I find it easier to make
floating panels than gluing up a solid flat piece with 4 sides glued
onto it. Make your 4 sides perfect, and then make the floating panel.
It doesn't have to be a perfect fit.
robo hippy

Tom H wrote:
MORE INFORMATION:

The top in question is 6.75 x 11.75.
The wood 1/2" is quarter sawn cherry.

"Tom H" wrote in message
et...

I haven't made many small wooden boxes (ie., Recipe Boxes, Jewelry Boxes
etc.)
I am starting a jewelry box for my daughter.
I can't see anyway of not glueing the lid top to the four lid sides
without glueing across the grain.
Can someone tell me the rule here.





Tom -- the best advice you have been given is a floating panel...

See:
2nd and third boxes
http://woodwork.pmccl.com/Business/p...dernstyle.html

And this one...
http://woodwork.pmccl.com/Business/p...icalstyle.html

Look at the views and you will see what people mean by a floating panel...


Get the book I mentioned earlier and it will explain a "floating panel"
It will save you a lot of time -- but even a bad book on jewel box
making should have a few pictures and diagrams to make the concept clear...

Groove in the inside frame edges... Tongue on the edges of the lid -- NO
GLUE on the tongue or the groove...


Make the bottom the same way. Cut a 1/8" to a 1/4" groove in the bottom
of the four box sides -- insert the bottom panel during gluing.

The inserted panel should float (slop around a tich -- not a tad --
that's too much) -- or have a spot of glue at the middle point of the
long grain direction to direct wood movement to the edges...

All explained with diagrams in a good book -- better than most sex ed
books anyway.


--
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it.” George Bernard Shaw

Thanks for all the good advice.
I take in all into consideration as I put pencil to paper.
Tom H

"Tom H" wrote in message
et...
I haven't made many small wooden boxes (ie., Recipe Boxes, Jewelry Boxes
etc.)
I am starting a jewelry box for my daughter.
I can't see anyway of not glueing the lid top to the four lid sides
without glueing across the grain.
Can someone tell me the rule here.

Tom H wrote:
I haven't made many small wooden boxes (ie., Recipe Boxes, Jewelry Boxes
etc.)
I am starting a jewelry box for my daughter.
I can't see anyway of not glueing the lid top to the four lid sides without
glueing across the grain.
Can someone tell me the rule here.

Well, I'm going to go against the common convention here and say glue
it up. You're only going to be gluing across the width, 9" or so. In
fact, I've done so with many small boxes without 1 failu

http://www.areddy.net/wood/jewelry%20box/index.htm

Tom H wrote:
MORE INFORMATION:

The top in question is 6.75 x 11.75.
The wood 1/2" is quarter sawn cherry.

Tom,
Given that information, I think I'd probably take the chance and just
glue it on, assuming you simply don't want the look of a floating
panel. Consider taking your box pieces parts into the house for
several days (longer if you have time) before glue-up. Keep it in the
house except when you take it out to the shop to work on it. That
should get them pre-shrunk to somewhere close to their ultimate
dimensions, and hopefully prevent any future problems.

DonkeyHody
"Even an old blind hog finds an acorn every now and then."

DonkeyHody wrote:
Then there's the question of glue. Some glues will allow a little
"creep" without failing, while others hold fast until the wood splits.

Relatively new to this stuff myself...I figure the more forgiving my
glue is, the better off I am. Can you give me some examples of the
more forgiving types?

And for that matter, can you steer me away from the less-forgiving
while you're at it??

Right now I use TB III.

Build mostly furniture...case goods, tables, etc. No chairs, no
cabinets. All hardwoods, mostly cherry.

Thanks in advance.

wrote:
Relatively new to this stuff myself...I figure the more forgiving my
glue is, the better off I am. Can you give me some examples of the
more forgiving types?

And for that matter, can you steer me away from the less-forgiving
while you're at it??

Right now I use TB III.

Build mostly furniture...case goods, tables, etc. No chairs, no
cabinets. All hardwoods, mostly cherry.

First the disclaimer. I've never done any controlled experiments.
I've tried this and that over the years, but conditions varied too much
to be sure what caused what.

Life is full of compromises and Titebond II has seemed to have the best
blend of features I need for most applications. I haven't tried
Titebond III yet, but I'm sure it's good too. Titebond in general has
a good reputation among the group.

I think it's generally accepted that yellow wood glues allow a little
creep without failure and that poly glues such as Gorilla Glue are more
"brittle" for lack of a better word.

That's not to say poly glue is junk; I use it in some applications, and
it has never failed me. But it's certainly messy and hard to clean up,
not to mention more expensive.

In general, I'd prefer to design for wood movement instead of depending
on glue creep to save me. I was just making the point that many
factors influence what you can get by with in cross-grain glueing and
what works under one set of circumstances may fail under another. It's
hard to make hard-fast rules without adding a lot of conditions.

If you are having success with Titebond III, I see no reason to change.


DonkeyHody
"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom
that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down
on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid
again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold
one anymore." - Mark Twain

DonkeyHody wrote:

I think it's generally accepted that yellow wood glues allow a
little creep without failure and that poly glues such as Gorilla
Glue are more "brittle" for lack of a better word.

I sorta figured the exact opposite. Polyurethane glue after it's cured
feels a little flexible and wood glue feels hard. Maybe I'm
interpreting that wrong... or maybe I should just shut up and sit
down.

Personally I LOVE Gorilla Glue. The stuff is the most amazing glue in
the world.

Joe Barta wrote:
DonkeyHody wrote:

I think it's generally accepted that yellow wood glues allow a
little creep without failure and that poly glues such as Gorilla
Glue are more "brittle" for lack of a better word.

I sorta figured the exact opposite. Polyurethane glue after it's cured
feels a little flexible and wood glue feels hard. Maybe I'm
interpreting that wrong... or maybe I should just shut up and sit
down.

Joe, you may be right. I had the same impression, but I read somewhere
that the thin layer you get with clamping is brittle. Maybe it's only
the foamed part that's flexible. Maybe some bonafide glue expert will
chime in here with some bonafide facts.

I've had great success with poly glue too, it's just so hard to get off
my hands.

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him."

DonkeyHody wrote:

I've had great success with poly glue too, it's just so hard to
get off my hands.

Hands are no problem.... it wears off after several days ;-)

Now clothes... that's a different story. My favorite sweatshirt has
had a couple glue spots on it for a few years now. After lots of
wearing and countless washings the glue is as intact as the day I
leaned into the glue.

I did some research back then and by all accounts (including a poly
glue manufacturer) there is no known solvent that will remove dried
polyurethane glue.

Larry,
Great pictures.
Where do you buy your hardware?
I got sticker shock at Rockler.

Tom


"Larry Bud" wrote in message
oups.com...

Tom H wrote:
I haven't made many small wooden boxes (ie., Recipe Boxes, Jewelry Boxes
etc.)
I am starting a jewelry box for my daughter.
I can't see anyway of not glueing the lid top to the four lid sides
without
glueing across the grain.
Can someone tell me the rule here.

Well, I'm going to go against the common convention here and say glue
it up. You're only going to be gluing across the width, 9" or so. In
fact, I've done so with many small boxes without 1 failu

http://www.areddy.net/wood/jewelry%20box/index.htm

wrote:
Relatively new to this stuff myself...I figure the more forgiving my
glue is, the better off I am. Can you give me some examples of the
more forgiving types?

And for that matter, can you steer me away from the less-forgiving
while you're at it??

Right now I use TB III.

After I answered your question the first time, I began to wonder if I
was remembering correctly what I had read. I was afraid I might have
told you wrong, so I did a little checking. According to the results
of a quick internet search:
1. White glue (Elmers) allows more creep than yellow glue (Titebond).
2. Yellow Glue allows more creep than polyurethane (Gorilla).
3. Creep is generally considered more a liability than an asset. Too
much creep will allow even parallel grain joints to move enough to feel
the glue line. However, the glue line still has to expand and contract
with the wood. An extremely brittle bond would fail over time. All
woodworking glues seem to allow enough creep to prevent this from being
a problem.
4. Polyurethane, while strong enough for most applications, is not as
strong as yellow glue. Its primary advantage seems to be
water-resistance, and the fact it sticks to almost anything.

I hope this helps. I'll be sticking with Titebond II and III, with an
occasional squirt of Gorilla for special applications.

DonkeyHody
"Even an old blind hog finds an acorn every now and then."

Tom H wrote:
Larry,
Great pictures.
Where do you buy your hardware?
I got sticker shock at Rockler.

Tom


"Larry Bud" wrote in message
oups.com...

Tom H wrote:
I haven't made many small wooden boxes (ie., Recipe Boxes, Jewelry Boxes
etc.)
I am starting a jewelry box for my daughter.
I can't see anyway of not glueing the lid top to the four lid sides
without
glueing across the grain.
Can someone tell me the rule here.

Well, I'm going to go against the common convention here and say glue
it up. You're only going to be gluing across the width, 9" or so. In
fact, I've done so with many small boxes without 1 failu

http://www.areddy.net/wood/jewelry%20box/index.htm

I really can't recall where I got that hardware... might have been Lee
Valley.

wrote:

Relatively new to this stuff myself...I figure the more forgiving my
glue is, the better off I am. Can you give me some examples of the
more forgiving types?

And for that matter, can you steer me away from the less-forgiving
while you're at it??

Right now I use TB III.


....snip
4. Polyurethane, while strong enough for most applications, is not as
strong as yellow glue. Its primary advantage seems to be
water-resistance, and the fact it sticks to almost anything.
..
I hope this helps. I'll be sticking with Titebond II and III, with an
occasional squirt of Gorilla for special applications.

DonkeyHody
"Even an old blind hog finds an acorn every now and then.

I had a bunch of kitchen and dining room chairs that sprung the cross
pieces from the legs and repaired them with Gorilla glue. It was a PITA
to keep the legs clean of the constant out-foaming of glue, and within a
few weeks the chairs all sprung apart again anyway. Once again I
carefully cleaned all the spindles and mortises and this time used
yellow glue - have had no separations in the last two years. I threw the
Gorilla glue in the can.

Sailaway wrote:

I had a bunch of kitchen and dining room chairs that sprung the
cross pieces from the legs and repaired them with Gorilla glue. It
was a PITA to keep the legs clean of the constant out-foaming of
glue,

I'll bet it was. The trick is to let it foam and dry completely. Then
go back and easily scrape off the excess.

and within a few weeks the chairs all sprung apart again
anyway. Once again I carefully cleaned all the spindles and
mortises and this time used yellow glue - have had no separations
in the last two years.

Oddly I had the exact opposite experience. Several years later and
Gorilla glue is still holding strong where yellow glue had failed
miserably.

Maybe the looseness of the joints has something to do with the
effectiveness of each glue? Don't know.

Joe Barta

Joe Barta wrote:

Maybe the looseness of the joints has something to do with the
effectiveness of each glue? Don't know.

From what I've read PU has almost no gap-filling ability (the foam has
very little strength) while some PVA glues have at least moderate
gap-filling ability (but not very much).

Epoxy, on the other hand, *requires* a bit of a gap to work properly,
and can fill fairly substantial gaps itself.

Chris

Chris Friesen wrote:

Epoxy, on the other hand, *requires* a bit of a gap to work
properly, and can fill fairly substantial gaps itself.


Never thought of using epoxy for the chair. Actually sounds like a
really good idea.

Oddly, the timing of this is interesting. Not more than 20 minutes ago
I was in one of those chairs I repaired a few years ago with Gorilla
glue. I leaned back a little hard and heard a crack. Seems I loosened
the back/seat joints. This is the last of an old set, and if I recall,
it did have rather wobbly joints. I had counted on the glue to also
fill gaps. (The rest are still solid [knock,knock]... and they suffer
the abuse of teenage boys tipping back on them all the time.)

I think maybe I'll try another repair using epoxy this time.

If you or anyone has a thought on a particular brand or type of epoxy
for such a repair, I'd be interested in hearing it along with any
reasons for your preference.

Joe Barta