I bought some walnut at an auction and am using to build a large cabinet.
Well, the bargain wasn't all that good cause the wood is distorted and full
of knot holes. There are two that are completely though the piece, and they
have fallen out, so it is just a hole. I can stick them on the side that
goes next to the wall so they will never be seen (except from the inside,
and then not very well), but what do I do with them. I have to fill them
with something. It seems too big for wood filler. Any way to make a walnut
colored filler that will stay put; maybe mixing walnut dust with epoxy? Or
cutting a hole with a hole saw and somehow making a plug to go in? Even
though they won't be seen, I would still like them to be as nice as
possible.

I got the walnut at about 1/3 of retail, but had to do a lot of extra
planing (fortunately it was 5/4) to get down to good wood. I should have
saved it for a project where I could cut around the defects, but misjudged
how bad it was.

Subject

No matter how you try to match a filler color with the walnut, the
results will SUCK.

It will look like a little kid who got caught with his hand in the
cookie jar, IMHO.

What about a contrasting color like filling the entire hole with BLACK?

If you think that will work, get back to me, tell you how I'd do it.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
nk.net...
Subject

No matter how you try to match a filler color with the walnut, the results
will SUCK.

It will look like a little kid who got caught with his hand in the cookie
jar, IMHO.

What about a contrasting color like filling the entire hole with BLACK?

If you think that will work, get back to me, tell you how I'd do it.

Okay, black could work. How, what?

Toller wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
nk.net...
Subject

No matter how you try to match a filler color with the walnut, the results
will SUCK.

It will look like a little kid who got caught with his hand in the cookie
jar, IMHO.

What about a contrasting color like filling the entire hole with BLACK?

If you think that will work, get back to me, tell you how I'd do it.

Okay, black could work. How, what?

I'm not the guy you're asking, but here are some
suggestions (his will probably be better).

You can use auto body filler (bondo) or spackling
compound or mix sawdust with epoxy and then after
the patch is cured and planed/scraped/sanded smooth
paint it. If you feel really artistic you can get some
artists' oil paints and a a fine brush and paint a knot
on the patch.

ISTR that you can mix tempura paint pigments
directly into epoxy.

Then there is JB Weld...

--

FF

Toller wrote:

Okay, black could work. How, what?


You will need the following materials.

1 gallon kit of epoxy, some black pigment, and some micro balloons.

Don't know where you are located, but there lots of epoxy suppliers out
there, especially for a job this size.

Supplies:

Single use latex (Medical type) gloves, paper cups, lots of clear
packing tape and paint mixing sticks.

You want to make what I call a backing plate.

I use scraps of 1/2" CDX plywood covered with packing tape.

(Epoxy doesn't stick to packing tape)

These backing plates are then used to block the bottom side of the hole.

I attach them temporally with screws. If that will be a problem, use
C-Clamps, bricks, whatever, to hold the plates in place while the epoxy
cures.

Mix up small amounts of epoxy thickened with micro balloons that has
also been colored and fill each hole about 1/2-3/4 full, then let cure
for 24 hours.

Next day, finish filling holes proud and let cure.

Turn board over, remove backing pad which will release easily because of
packing tape and fill proud as required with more thickened epoxy.

Let cure, then sand flush with some 40 grit on a ROS.

Why the multiple pours, you ask?

Several reasons.

Epoxy is an exothermic material. Pack too much in a hole, it will take
off, foam and have to be removed back to the beginning.

Multiple pours insures no voids and a 100% fill.

Building a boat, I've done the above so often, I could do it in my sleep.

It's not rocket science.

Good luck.

BTW, micro ballon thickened epoxy will destroy cutting tool edges.

Plan accordingly.


Lew

On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 03:42:53 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

I bought some walnut at an auction and am using to build a large cabinet.
Well, the bargain wasn't all that good cause the wood is distorted and full
of knot holes.

It's called low-grade wood. Avoid the holes and cut to use for small
projects. If still not enough, accept your lot and be wiser next
time. I got a piece like that among some other good stuff, but it was
free, so no loss at all. Enough for a few good small projects though.

For another look at this knotty problem... ouch... I do something
different.

I fill mesquite regularly as it is quite accepted to do it down here in
South Texas, even on fine furniture. Not the finest, but fine.

I do a lot of turning, and the most intersting wood to me is the most
messed up, butt nasty ugly stuff I can find. I comes with large wind
shake rings, borer holes of about 1/4" diameter, and all manner of
other distresses.

I use epoxy, but in a different way. I mix up the epoxy, make my dam
(tape, etc.) so it doesn't flow out, and mix up epoxy with copier
toner. This makes the epoxy perfectly jet black. For a more natural
feel and look (instead of black plastic) I mix in a medium grind
coffee. The coffee actually seems to hold the finish on better than
the plain epoxy and doesn't have that plastic look to it. Coffee is
also harmless to planer blades, jointers, and turning tools.

Some of the guys also put in colored stones, Inlace (available at
WoodCraft), key filings for a soft brass glow, and all manner of other
things.

Everyone in my turning club has their own method of doing this, but
this is not much of a deviation of the norm we all have been doing for
a long time. Oddly, the black epoxy looks better on large pieces with
no coffee grinds, if is half and half on the smaller ones, and almost
anything turned that is a medium brown to cherry looks better with the
grinds. Whiter woods look better with only the epoxy/toner combo.

It should be noted that unlike Lew's instruction above, this is not for
a boat, or any other kind of structure or work surface. It is simply a
quick way to make imperfections more palatable, or in the case of
woodturning, a feature.

Robert

Lew,

Back some time ago I had started looking for what kind of tinting
agents were compatable with epoxies. Can you fill me in?

Roy

Toller wrote:

Any way to make a walnut colored
filler that will stay put; maybe mixing walnut dust with epoxy?

That will work. So will regular glue. In either case, just back up the
hole with masking tape and then pack in the filler. Result won't look
great, can be improved (IMO) by using a mixture of joiner shavings, saw
dust and sanding dust. Just enough glue to wet the wood fill materials.
May need more than one filling.


--
dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,43000,51208

On 6 Dec 2005 03:19:14 -0800, "ROYNEU" wrote:

Lew,

Back some time ago I had started looking for what kind of tinting
agents were compatable with epoxies. Can you fill me in?

Are you trying to be punny?

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx...&FamilyID=4505

[quote=Guess who]On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 03:42:53 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

I bought some walnut full
of knot holes.

It's called low-grade wood. Avoid the holes and cut to use for small
projects. If still not enough, accept your lot and be wiser next
time.

Probably the best advice though not the happiest.

It was suggested that you fill them with black - I presume so that they pass as natural knots ?

Another solution is to drill them out with appropriate dowelling drill and cut plugs from matching off cuts-with a conical plug cutter, trying to match up the grain and colour. Glue them in. You need a fixed drill to use this little cutter. It is not perfect but it does work much better than filler.

In this manner I cut out any knots that look as though may be troublesome in future years by their shrinkage and cracking or weeping of resin on items that are to be painted. I am referring to real painting - not three coats of some colour mix off the hardware shelf. Using filler to replace the knots leaves nasty shiny spots that bulge or dimple be you never so careful and are of a different surface texture from the wood.

For larger areas of damage it is possible to inlay which requires very precise workmanship. I have also modified a convenional hole saw of about 40mm by filing the teeth and bending them slightly - and removing the central drill bit - so that it produces a plug that fits snugly into a hole cut by a bigger hole saw. It works well but only in a serious drill press.

Glue is a problem. Modern glues often show milky and transparent glues can leave films that are difficult to detect until after you have polished the work when they stand out like a sore thumb or even throw off the finish. For me the best results still come from real rabit skin glue coloured with vandyke. Still when the work has been planed back and scraped be sure to test any areas near gluing with water which helps to show up glue residue - with fine linseed oil diluted heavily in white spirit which is appropriate if you are using an oiled finish or French polish. The worst of all are the solvent suspended glues which penetrate the grain and require vigorous physical removal.

But let's face it, you are going into furniture restoration before you have built the furniture ! I only go to these lengths when I have a particularly beautiful piece of graining that is marred by one blemish. Sometimes you find this in low grade timber which has been rejected because of knots, borer attack et cetera.

Perhaps you will finish with a beautifull snuff box ?

"Toller" wrote in message
...
I bought some walnut at an auction and am using to build a large cabinet.
Well, the bargain wasn't all that good cause the wood is distorted and full
of knot holes. There are two that are completely though the piece, and
they have fallen out, so it is just a hole. I can stick them on the side
that goes next to the wall so they will never be seen (except from the
inside, and then not very well), but what do I do with them. I have to
fill them with something. It seems too big for wood filler. Any way to
make a walnut colored filler that will stay put; maybe mixing walnut dust
with epoxy? Or cutting a hole with a hole saw and somehow making a plug to
go in? Even though they won't be seen, I would still like them to be as
nice as possible.

I got the walnut at about 1/3 of retail, but had to do a lot of extra
planing (fortunately it was 5/4) to get down to good wood. I should have
saved it for a project where I could cut around the defects, but misjudged
how bad it was.

(I'm posting this way just say Larry won't pick on me about my top-posting
habit....;-)

Toller,

Lots of good info from others but no mention of using artists acrylics.
I've used black and ocra mixed together with epoxy and you only need enough
mixed in with the epoxy to color it. Stark black looks good but the dark
ocra gives a hint of brown that looks like knot wood. The nice thing with
using the acrylics is that they're inexpensive and you can just mix them
together to get the exact tone you want before adding the color to the
epoxy. Fill the hole in layers to insure a good fill and cure.

If the finish is ultimately going to be a flat or satin low-luster finish
then sand the epoxy filled areas so they are opaque (not shinny) and when
you apply the finish, they will blend in nicely. Be careful when sanding
though. The epoxy is much harder than the wood and if you're not careful you
will sand the area around the knot holes lower than the epoxy. Best to over
fill the holes ever so slightly then use a single-edged razor blade as a
scraper to scrape the epoxy down level.

You may want to drill a couple of holes in some scraps and practice a few, I
think you'll like the result. I've also used butterflies to cover.... make
that, enhance an imperfection. Use the inlay set (Lee Valley, Rockler...) to
do that as someone recommended.

Bob S.

Real question and all puns intended. Now Woodcraft is an example of
what I've been finding where I've looked. In the information they never
tell you what the tint is made from so I can go looking for other
manufacturers. And, where I've looked so far they never carry a full
line of color. Woodcraft says there are six colors yet they only carry
two of them.

Anybody know what this stuff is made from?

"tghattaq" wrote in message
...

Guess who Wrote:
On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 03:42:53 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

I bought some walnut full
of knot holes.

It's called low-grade wood. Avoid the holes and cut to use for small
projects. If still not enough, accept your lot and be wiser next
time.


You are certainly correct in general, but in this particular project any
wood that will actually be seen doesn't look too bad; just one very solid
knot. The bad stuff is all up against a wall, so only the edge will be
seen. I could probably leave holes and no one would ever know.

I just want to fix them because I will know, and for the practice of doing
it.

"dadiOH" wrote in message
newstglf.4945$H84.1006@trnddc04...
Toller wrote:

Any way to make a walnut colored
filler that will stay put; maybe mixing walnut dust with epoxy?

That will work. So will regular glue. In either case, just back up the
hole with masking tape and then pack in the filler. Result won't look
great, can be improved (IMO) by using a mixture of joiner shavings, saw
dust and sanding dust. Just enough glue to wet the wood fill materials.
May need more than one filling.

You have used both epoxy and yellow glue?
How does epoxy sand and react to varnish?
How well does yellow glue last?

I see yellow glue sanding and taking varnish better, but epoxy being more
durable; but maybe not. Perhaps I should make up some samples.

ROYNEU wrote:
Lew,

Back some time ago I had started looking for what kind of tinting
agents were compatable with epoxies. Can you fill me in?

Roy


My knowledge is very limited.

Used black epoxy as the first coat to seal some foam in the hull before
applying a layer of glass.

Used black since it made finding pin holes easy.

My epoxy supplier sent me a quart of epoxy that was filled with carbon
black.

My epoxy supplier doesn't do this themselves, it is a buy out fome
somebody in Huntington Beach, Ca.

1 quart of black was enough to tint at least 30 gallons of base resin.

When it comes to other colors, I'm clueless.

Try talking to an ink manufacturer.

HTH

BTW, the idea of using copy machine toner to make black resin works for
me, especially when using it to fill knot holes.

Lew

wrote:

I use epoxy, but in a different way. I mix up the epoxy, make my dam
(tape, etc.) so it doesn't flow out, and mix up epoxy with copier
toner. This makes the epoxy perfectly jet black.

That works for me. It all gets back to carbon black.

For a more natural
feel and look (instead of black plastic) I mix in a medium grind
coffee. The coffee actually seems to hold the finish on better than
the plain epoxy and doesn't have that plastic look to it. Coffee is
also harmless to planer blades, jointers, and turning tools.

Since this is a non structural application, you can use almost anything
as a filler.

Any filler will knock down the epoxy shine.

Some may improve the adhesion.

The microballoons I use are low cost, improve the adhesion of the epoxy,
but are abrasive so they dull cutting tools.

Some of the guys also put in colored stones, Inlace (available at
WoodCraft), key filings for a soft brass glow, and all manner of other
things.

Interesting ideas.

It should be noted that unlike Lew's instruction above, this is not for
a boat, or any other kind of structure or work surface. It is simply a
quick way to make imperfections more palatable, or in the case of
woodturning, a feature.

I'll bet you get some very neat results.

Lew

On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:50:43 GMT, Lew Hodgett
wrote:

The microballoons I use are low cost, improve the adhesion of the epoxy,
but are abrasive so they dull cutting tools.

I use the phenolic (brown) microballoons, not the white silica ones.
They're much softer and don't dull tools.

Andy Dingley wrote:

I use the phenolic (brown) microballoons, not the white silica ones.
They're much softer and don't dull tools.

For probably 90+% of the people on this list, that is probably a good
idea to use the phenolic balloons since the usage is small.

I buy microballoons in 4 cubic ft bags(30 lbs), often geting several at
a time.

The increase in cost of phenolic is significant.

Lew

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:56:31 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

How does epoxy sand

Epoxy is a pig to sand. Epoxy filled with the right filler
(microballoons) is easy to either sand or scrape. Epoxy with the wrong
filler (silica) is indestructible.

How about filled with saw dust?
I did that once because I needed a lot of epoxy glue and had a gallon of
laminating epoxy, a sander full of wood dust, and no commercial filler.
Filled with wood dust glued very well, but I never tried to sand it.

Toller wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote in message
newstglf.4945$H84.1006@trnddc04...
Toller wrote:

Any way to make a walnut colored
filler that will stay put; maybe mixing walnut dust with epoxy?

That will work. So will regular glue. In either case, just back up
the hole with masking tape and then pack in the filler. Result
won't look great, can be improved (IMO) by using a mixture of joiner
shavings, saw dust and sanding dust. Just enough glue to wet the
wood fill materials. May need more than one filling.

You have used both epoxy and yellow glue?

Yes. Also polyester resin and white glue.
____________

How does epoxy sand and react to varnish?

Sands OK. Keep in mind that I only use enough to keep chips/saw
dust/sand dust together. I rarely use varnish, prefer lacquer but
either are fine with it.
_____________

How well does yellow glue last? It will last as long as the wood it
is in AFAIK.

Well, it doesn't self destruct. Biggest trouble with glue is drying
time and shrinkage. For something like your knot I'd probably fill all
but 1/8" or so with resin, let it cure then finish with a wood & glue
mix. Or just use wood parts in the resin. I prefer the appearance of
repairs like this when mixed with glue because the resin really wets it
out and it winds up quite dark unless it is light colored wood in which
case it winds up yellow.
_______________

I see yellow glue sanding and taking varnish better, but epoxy being
more durable; but maybe not.

Perhaps I should make up some samples.

You are filling a hole in the back of something. Get to it and quit
obsessing...


--
dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Toller wrote:

How about filled with saw dust?
I did that once because I needed a lot of epoxy glue and had a gallon of
laminating epoxy, a sander full of wood dust, and no commercial filler.
Filled with wood dust glued very well, but I never tried to sand it.


IMHO, biggest single waste of epoxy and time is to use any wood fiber
based filler.

Wood flour, saw dust, what ever wood product you pick, there are all a
waste of good epoxy.

Lew

On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 15:05:41 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Bob
S" quickly quoth:

(I'm posting this way just say Larry won't pick on me about my top-posting
habit....;-)

That's a good thing. I just plonked dickloose for that.

Toller,

Lots of good info from others but no mention of using artists acrylics.
I've used black and ocra mixed together with epoxy and you only need enough

Cooked or raw okra? Oh, you mean ochre, the color?

Can I give ya a 15 yard penalty for "Improper Staining Of Wood"?
Nah, not enough wood in a missing knot hole, huh? Carry on.


mixed in with the epoxy to color it. Stark black looks good but the dark
ocra gives a hint of brown that looks like knot wood. The nice thing with
using the acrylics is that they're inexpensive and you can just mix them
together to get the exact tone you want before adding the color to the
epoxy. Fill the hole in layers to insure a good fill and cure.

If the finish is ultimately going to be a flat or satin low-luster finish
then sand the epoxy filled areas so they are opaque (not shinny) and when

"Shiny." Shinny is how one goes up a tree or pole, suh.


you apply the finish, they will blend in nicely. Be careful when sanding
though. The epoxy is much harder than the wood and if you're not careful you
will sand the area around the knot holes lower than the epoxy. Best to over
fill the holes ever so slightly then use a single-edged razor blade as a
scraper to scrape the epoxy down level.

Why not use a cabinet scraper, Bob?


You may want to drill a couple of holes in some scraps and practice a few, I
think you'll like the result. I've also used butterflies to cover.... make
that, enhance an imperfection. Use the inlay set (Lee Valley, Rockler...) to
do that as someone recommended.

I ordered that but forgot to add the carbide end mill, blast it.


--
The Smart Person learns from his mistakes.
The Wise Person learns from the mistakes of others.
And then there are all the rest of us...
-----------------------------------------------------
www.diversify.com -- Wisearse Website Design

NORM would probably use a DUTCHMAN.



"Toller" wrote in message
...
I bought some walnut at an auction and am using to build a large cabinet.
Well, the bargain wasn't all that good cause the wood is distorted and full
of knot holes. There are two that are completely though the piece, and
they have fallen out, so it is just a hole. I can stick them on the side
that goes next to the wall so they will never be seen (except from the
inside, and then not very well), but what do I do with them. I have to
fill them with something. It seems too big for wood filler. Any way to
make a walnut colored filler that will stay put; maybe mixing walnut dust
with epoxy? Or cutting a hole with a hole saw and somehow making a plug to
go in? Even though they won't be seen, I would still like them to be as
nice as possible.

I got the walnut at about 1/3 of retail, but had to do a lot of extra
planing (fortunately it was 5/4) to get down to good wood. I should have
saved it for a project where I could cut around the defects, but misjudged
how bad it was.

[quote=Toller]I bought some walnut at an auction and am using to build a large cabinet.
On the subject of colours Vandyke brown is made, I believe, from the foemented and dried outer husks of walnuts, which if you have ever seen them pickled in vinegar are a very dark brown/black

Might be a nice kind of 'symbiotic' appeal there?

Lew,

You may have hit on where I can restart my search. If I could just get
my brain to work like it use to. When you wrote Huntington, Beach, CA
you brought back all those memories of the old days. Wondering the
surfboard shops and that. I'll have to look at sites that cater to
surfboard makers I bet they would have something up their sleeve. But,
alas it will likely be in the flourescent colors. Not to sure how that
will go in a Queen Anne piece!!!!

Roy

For a more natural
feel and look (instead of black plastic) I mix in a medium grind
coffee. The coffee actually seems to hold the finish on better than
the plain epoxy and doesn't have that plastic look to it. Coffee is
also harmless to planer blades, jointers, and turning tools.

I have done cofee on some turnings and really like the look. I would add,
however that using spent medium grounds did not yeild a smooth finish.
Finely ground beans (seriously, to a fine powder) worked the best. It
yeilded a nice dark chocolate color.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 07:24:57 -0500, "Stephen M"
wrote:

For a more natural
feel and look (instead of black plastic) I mix in a medium grind
coffee. The coffee actually seems to hold the finish on better than
the plain epoxy and doesn't have that plastic look to it. Coffee is
also harmless to planer blades, jointers, and turning tools.

I have done cofee on some turnings and really like the look. I would add,
however that using spent medium grounds did not yeild a smooth finish.
Finely ground beans (seriously, to a fine powder) worked the best. It
yeilded a nice dark chocolate color.



Personally, I use instant coffee.
The job is done in no time.