"Damage noted," he said.
http://photobucket.com/albums/d160/G...t=3e1f11ee.jpg

The glasses made it fine, even though someone packing for Lee Valley threw a
cast iron gingerbread pan in to bounce about and bash the other items. A
bit of bubble wrap would have been nice, but newsprint - now tightly
compressed - was all they used. Lots of dust, too.

Fed Ex sure learned a lot from the USPS.

Worst part - none of it was for me....

"George" George@least wrote in message
...
"Damage noted," he said.

http://photobucket.com/albums/d160/G...t=3e1f11ee.jpg

The glasses made it fine, even though someone packing for Lee Valley threw
a
cast iron gingerbread pan in to bounce about and bash the other items. A
bit of bubble wrap would have been nice, but newsprint - now tightly
compressed - was all they used. Lots of dust, too.

Fed Ex sure learned a lot from the USPS.

Worst part - none of it was for me....



The packing job was simply not up to the task. "LeeValley" tape is way too
short over the ends and the box is too light. I'm surprised.

"Battleax" wrote in message

The packing job was simply not up to the task. "LeeValley" tape is way too
short over the ends and the box is too light. I'm surprised.

Product arrived with no damage. Packaging worked perfectly. The standard
for tape over the end is 2" Anything more is a waste of tape. Plain paper
tape must be in an H pattern, but reinforced tape is OK with one strip.
Carton is to specifications as required by UPS and the NSTA.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...
"Battleax" wrote in message

The packing job was simply not up to the task. "LeeValley" tape is way
too
short over the ends and the box is too light. I'm surprised.

Product arrived with no damage. Packaging worked perfectly. The standard
for tape over the end is 2" Anything more is a waste of tape. Plain
paper
tape must be in an H pattern, but reinforced tape is OK with one strip.
Carton is to specifications as required by UPS and the NSTA.



Well that box wouldn't have made it much further. It may be to someone's
specification but it's not good enough

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 17:38:02 -0500, "George" George@least wrote:

Worst part - none of it was for me....

Maybe this will teach you a lesson about ordering from LV and not
getting something for yourself.

I can't believe you'd publicly admit to such a thing.


-Leuf

"Battleax" wrote in message
...

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...
"Battleax" wrote in message

The packing job was simply not up to the task. "LeeValley" tape is way
too
short over the ends and the box is too light. I'm surprised.

Product arrived with no damage. Packaging worked perfectly. The
standard
for tape over the end is 2" Anything more is a waste of tape. Plain
paper
tape must be in an H pattern, but reinforced tape is OK with one strip.
Carton is to specifications as required by UPS and the NSTA.



Well that box wouldn't have made it much further. It may be to someone's
specification but it's not good enough


For a lot of years, I'd get tools shipped from Taiwan (pre-mainland) to the
West Coast to here, about a 6000 mile journey. I'd then have to repack and
return the tools after testing. Biggest problem: the original cartons were
designed to go 6000 miles. They might make 6500. Ask them for 9000, and the
contents would spill out all over something or other. So I too often had to
rebuild the cartons out of tape and cardboard.

You used to be able to pretty much pinpoint the origin from the color of the
corrugated cardboard. The Asian cardboard had a really nasty yellowish
color. I have no idea what the differences in the mixtures were, or are, but
the current cartons are 100% better, even from the mainland Chinese
factories. The Taiwanese tools are at least 100% better, too.

"Battleax" wrote in message
...


Well that box wouldn't have made it much further. It may be to someone's
specification but it's not good enough

Not good enough for what? As I said befo Product arrived with no
damage. Packaging worked perfectly.

Nothing else matters. Nothing. Seems to me it is the ideal cost effective
package and it did the job it was supposed to do. Nothing else matters.
(BTW, I've been involved in the packaging industry for 35 years. The goal
is for the product to arrive intact.)

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 11:07:28 GMT, "Charles Self"
wrote:

You used to be able to pretty much pinpoint the origin from the color of the
corrugated cardboard. The Asian cardboard had a really nasty yellowish
color. I have no idea what the differences in the mixtures were,

You should have seen '70s-'80s Soviet cardboard. Nothing else like it.
it wasn't too bad when it was dry, it was thicker than anyone else's
,because it was the only way to get any strength. Wet though, the stuff
was like soggy tissue. It must have been recycled out of old recyclings
and the fibres were just too short to have any wet strength left.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...

You should have seen '70s-'80s Soviet cardboard. Nothing else like it.
it wasn't too bad when it was dry, it was thicker than anyone else's
,because it was the only way to get any strength. Wet though, the stuff
was like soggy tissue. It must have been recycled out of old recyclings
and the fibres were just too short to have any wet strength left.

Ever notice that any book printed on slick paper, much less coated, was
printed in Finland, not USSR? They were cheap, of course.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...
"Battleax" wrote in message
...


Well that box wouldn't have made it much further. It may be to someone's
specification but it's not good enough

Not good enough for what? As I said befo Product arrived with no
damage. Packaging worked perfectly.

Nothing else matters. Nothing. Seems to me it is the ideal cost
effective package and it did the job it was supposed to do. Nothing else
matters. (BTW, I've been involved in the packaging industry for 35 years.
The goal is for the product to arrive intact.)


Would you have packaged an eight-pound piece of iron unrestrained in a
package containing glasses and bubble-wrapped plastic items? Sorry, this
is in the dumb luck category, not the good enough

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...
"Battleax" wrote in message
...


Well that box wouldn't have made it much further. It may be to someone's
specification but it's not good enough

Not good enough for what? As I said befo Product arrived with no
damage. Packaging worked perfectly.

Nothing else matters. Nothing. Seems to me it is the ideal cost
effective
package and it did the job it was supposed to do. Nothing else matters.
(BTW, I've been involved in the packaging industry for 35 years. The goal
is for the product to arrive intact.)



It did what it was supposed to by plain luck, it's a crap packing job.

Ba r r y wrote:

...

On the other hand, I'm surprised that none of the manufacturers build
decent reusable containers for demo and review machines, like the
stuff that gets shipped to Charlie or FWW. It would seem that some
sort of reusable flight case or crate would help their machines travel
safely. Once a machine has done the rounds, they could always refit
the case for a similar tool.


I used to work for a group at NASA'a Goddard Space Flight Center
that used radio telescopes all over the world. As part of that project

we loaned some of the equipment that was used for the observing
campaigns and had custom-made reusable shipping containers built
of plywood for that equipment.

At one of our weekly meetings we were informed that shipping of
something ( ISTR it was an atomic clock) from Hat Creek, California
to Arecibo, Puerto Rico, was delayed because the porcupines had
eaten the packing crates.

--

FF

"George" George@least wrote in message

Would you have packaged an eight-pound piece of iron unrestrained in a
package containing glasses and bubble-wrapped plastic items? Sorry, this
is in the dumb luck category, not the good enough

Nothing damaged. The packaging did its job. Does it look pretty? Probably
not, but there is no damage, no harm, no loss of anything. Life is good.

By glasses, do you mean the dozen beer glasses that have been on test for 20
years? Very nice, I like them. Last year, mine arrived in the same package
as my 30 pound vice and yes, nothing was broken.

"Ba r r y" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 11:25:57 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:

"Battleax" wrote in message
.. .


Well that box wouldn't have made it much further. It may be to someone's
specification but it's not good enough

Not good enough for what? As I said befo Product arrived with no
damage. Packaging worked perfectly.

Nothing else matters. Nothing. Seems to me it is the ideal cost
effective
package and it did the job it was supposed to do. Nothing else matters.
(BTW, I've been involved in the packaging industry for 35 years. The goal
is for the product to arrive intact.)

There seems to be a consumer belief that if the one-time use box has
any visible damage, it wasn't a good package. A package with crumple
zones and impact absorbing material is far better than a "strong" box.
I've unpacked plenty of broken goods from perfect boxes.

On the other hand, I'm surprised that none of the manufacturers build
decent reusable containers for demo and review machines, like the
stuff that gets shipped to Charlie or FWW. It would seem that some
sort of reusable flight case or crate would help their machines travel
safely. Once a machine has done the rounds, they could always refit
the case for a similar tool.

Well, the machines I just shipped back were all in wooden crates, including
one that was framed in steel. But those are still one time use crates,
though one helluvan improvement over what I was getting just five years ago.

Part of this is probably economy. Part of it is simply to indicate that
there are no special tricks applied to the tools to be reviewed. Unopened
packages of standard design.

And, honestly, with on jointer that just went back, I would not WANT the
crate any heavier. It comes assembled, and is claimed to weigh about 750
pounds crated, about 100 pounds less uncrated.

More like 875 pounds crated, I think. But even if it's only 800, that's more
than sufficient for two fat old guys to unload, uncrate and fiddle with and
recrate and return. Like to killed our sorry butts even with my wife helping
on the outbound leg...always marry a farm girl. They know how to work.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:3iFjf.3422$R02.574@trndny06...

"George" George@least wrote in message

Would you have packaged an eight-pound piece of iron unrestrained in a
package containing glasses and bubble-wrapped plastic items? Sorry,
this is in the dumb luck category, not the good enough

Nothing damaged. The packaging did its job. Does it look pretty?
Probably not, but there is no damage, no harm, no loss of anything. Life
is good.

By glasses, do you mean the dozen beer glasses that have been on test for
20 years? Very nice, I like them. Last year, mine arrived in the same
package as my 30 pound vice and yes, nothing was broken.


That's them. Smashed along one side, but the box they were in didn't deform
so much that they crushed. Had it been the top versus the bottom that
crushed - well who knows.

Hope their durability continues. They're for the kids, who are still slim
enough to drink beer.

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:36:33 GMT, "Charles Self"
wrote:
Like to killed our sorry butts even with my wife helping
on the outbound leg...always marry a farm girl. They know how to work.

Amen, Brother! Farm girls are the best, not only do they know how to
work but they have other attributes as well - some of which can be
discussed in a public forum. I married one of the best of the breed
and haven't paid for beef in almost 20 years!

--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

"Ba r r y" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:36:33 GMT, "Charles Self"
wrote:


And, honestly, with on jointer that just went back, I would not WANT the
crate any heavier. It comes assembled, and is claimed to weigh about 750
pounds crated, about 100 pounds less uncrated.

Well-built Calzone or Anvil cases can be surprisingly light.

Barry

Yeah, but...this crate was well built, but it was also about 1-1/2" shy of
8' long and over 2' wide, and, though I didn't check the height, it was
tall, chest high to me...I'm not 6'2" any more, but I'm still over 6'. Rough
guess has the crate weighing 150 pounds, minimum. And I added 2x4 runners so
it would move on rollers. Those ran at right angles to the skid pieces,
because I needed to get this sucker into my buddy's pick-up long ways. No
way it would fit otherwise. While I had it on the engine crane--this may
have been an inspired purchase nearly a decade ago for $140 or so--with the
crate base bolted onto the jointer, I simply placed a runner on one side,
blocked it solid and nailed, and repeated the process. After that, three of
us could do the loading a lot more easily than two of us did the unloading.

Suggestion for those making their own pipe rollers: 1-1/2" or 1-1/4" OD is
best. 3/4" is nearly worthless. Six rollers will move just about anything,
and make each roller about 42-43" long.

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:29:51 -0500, "George" George@least wrote:

Would you have packaged an eight-pound piece of iron unrestrained in a
package containing glasses and bubble-wrapped plastic items?

I once bought an anvil and some welding goggles from Northern Tools. I
didn't even get the bubble wrap!

"Tim Douglass" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:36:33 GMT, "Charles Self"
wrote:
Like to killed our sorry butts even with my wife helping
on the outbound leg...always marry a farm girl. They know how to work.

Amen, Brother! Farm girls are the best, not only do they know how to
work but they have other attributes as well - some of which can be
discussed in a public forum. I married one of the best of the breed
and haven't paid for beef in almost 20 years!

Yeah. And not lazy. My wife isn't working right now, so she worked a garden,
canned us about 50 quarts of green beans (not counting what we ate for
months), did probably another two dozen for family, lots of other edibles,
tomatoes until my mouth got sore from the acid, probably 40 quarts of
tomatoes canned and remaining, I don't know how much strawberry preserves,
peach preserves and blueberry preserves, but a lot. Plus zucchini, green
peppers, red peppers, and a slew of other stuff. She also got some
pick-ur-own apples and made applesauce and apple butter.

Sort of like turning into my own grandfather, except I never had a dozen
kids. Actually, I guess they had 14, one of those early 20th century farm
families (my oldest uncle was born in 1900, straddled two centuries within a
few months, as did my father, who was born the same year).

Near Walton's Mountain (which doesn't exist), but, as my mother used to say,
we had the sawmill and farm, and some of the kids got to college, but, as
kids, none had a car, and there was a lot less noise and hassle, and money,
around the house.

In article ,
Andy Dingley wrote:

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:29:51 -0500, "George" George@least wrote:

Would you have packaged an eight-pound piece of iron unrestrained in a
package containing glasses and bubble-wrapped plastic items?

I once bought an anvil and some welding goggles from Northern Tools. I
didn't even get the bubble wrap!

Why am I developing images of Wiley E. Coyote?

"Battleax" wrote in message

It did what it was supposed to by plain luck, it's a crap packing job.

Bottom line: it worked
Good packaging job!

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...
"Battleax" wrote in message

It did what it was supposed to by plain luck, it's a crap packing job.

Bottom line: it worked
Good packaging job!



I see your standards are considerably lower than mine

"Battleax" wrote in message


I see your standards are considerably lower than mine

Nope, my standards demand the product arrive intact. That is the goal of
any package design. Once that is achieved, anything more is just plain
wasted money. I guess you don't mind wasting yours on a pretty box that will
get ground up on recycling day.

No damage = good package.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Battleax" wrote in message


I see your standards are considerably lower than mine

Nope, my standards demand the product arrive intact. That is the goal of
any package design. Once that is achieved, anything more is just plain
wasted money. I guess you don't mind wasting yours on a pretty box that
will
get ground up on recycling day.

No damage = good package.



Nothing is that black and white. In this case it was No damage = barely
sufficient

"Battleax" wrote in message

Nothing is that black and white. In this case it was No damage = barely
sufficient

Perfectly black and white. No damage = sufficient. What more do you
expect? Or want?

It is either sufficient of not. Like being a little pregnant.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Battleax" wrote in message

Nothing is that black and white. In this case it was No damage = barely
sufficient

Perfectly black and white. No damage = sufficient. What more do you
expect? Or want?

A margin of safety would be nice.

--


FF

On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 14:54:17 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:

"Battleax" wrote in message

Nothing is that black and white. In this case it was No damage = barely
sufficient

Perfectly black and white. No damage = sufficient. What more do you
expect? Or want?

It is either sufficient of not. Like being a little pregnant.

A man picked up a beautiful woman in a bar and took her home. After
several hours of incredible sex he lay beside her, exhausted and
convinced from her responses that she had enjoyed it all as much as he
had. Being a bit of an egotist, he asked her; "So, how was I?"

"Adequate."

"Adequate?! All that incredible sex and all you can say is I'm
adequate?"

"Well, would you rather be inadequate?"

--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

wrote in message

A margin of safety would be nice.


I guess it was enough of a margin as there was no damage.

There is standard testing that is done for packaging and you can have it
tested for NSTA and UPS certification also. Most of it is overkill giving
a good safety margin. .

Some years ago a customer called me and said the packaging we provided
failed their new drop test. I went along with a designer from our company
and we met with his new QC guy and the president of the company that
originally bought the package from us.

The QC guy went on about the testing and the failure of the packaging in the
test and what the specifications and reasoning behind the testing was. .
After a lengthy diatribe, he was interrupted by President who asked two
questions:

Q. How many packages did we ship last year?

A. Over 50,000

Q. How many were damaged

A. None

President: Thank you for coming. The meeting is over and we will have no
need to re-assess our present packaging. It works.

"Ba r r y" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:36:33 GMT, "Charles Self"
wrote:


And, honestly, with on jointer that just went back, I would not WANT the
crate any heavier. It comes assembled, and is claimed to weigh about 750
pounds crated, about 100 pounds less uncrated.

Well-built Calzone or Anvil cases can be surprisingly light.

Barry

===MMMmmmmh! Calzones. Just like momma used to make. Don't believe she
shipped any, though!*G*

Leif

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
wrote in message

A margin of safety would be nice.


I guess it was enough of a margin as there was no damage.


I guess this turns on the meaning of 'sufficient'.

50,000 packages delivered with none damaged implies a sufficient
margin of safety.

--

FF

wrote in message
ups.com...

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
wrote in message

A margin of safety would be nice.


I guess it was enough of a margin as there was no damage.


I guess this turns on the meaning of 'sufficient'.

50,000 packages delivered with none damaged implies a sufficient
margin of safety.


Ed has missed the point, you may not have seen it.

The box was much too large for what it contained - probably by a factor of
three or more. Since nothing was used to bulk it out, it was extremely
vulnerable to damage from the outside.

The box contained both a box of glasses and an eight pound piece of iron,
both unrestrained within the oversize container. It's entirely possible
that inertial forces acting on the chunk of iron during handling caused some
of the problems observed. Impacts from inside also destroy the shape of
the container, making it more vulnerable to exterior forces.

Keeping the contents from shifting and damaging themselves or the container
is really important in packaging. The two ways normally employed to
accomplish this were not employed. The FRAGILE labels placed on the
exterior almost seem a joke perpetrated on the carrier by the packager.

Accidental success in no way justifies double dumb packaging, just as one
swallow does not make a summer.

"George" George@least wrote in message
Ed has missed the point, you may not have seen it.

Accidental success in no way justifies double dumb packaging, just as one
swallow does not make a summer.

What point???? The product arrived unscathed. There is nothing more to do.
Sure, the package could have been better in some respects for appearance,
but, it worked, You can't get it to do anything more than that. Since it
arrived in a box larger than needed, do you expect the glasses to multiply?
Be filled with beer? A cake to be in the pan? Ribbons and bows?
You ordered some items. They were shipped and arrived in perfect condition.
The contract was fulfilled and payment was made. Perfect! You had no loss.
Life is good.

The only point is that you received what you asked for in perfect condition.
Nothing else matters. You should have no more expectations.

wrote in message
I guess this turns on the meaning of 'sufficient'.

50,000 packages delivered with none damaged implies a sufficient
margin of safety.

Exactly, but some idiot wanted a new design because if failed a trumped up
"test" that was overkill.

In real life, you do increase the margin of safety as the cost of the
product goes up. If, out of 50,000 shipments of a $100 item you had three
failures, that is not so bad. OTOH, if you had that many failures on a
$75,000 item, you should be looking for the cause. It is not always
packaging. I know of one instance with a computer company that was going to
spend $20 per unit on a package and it was not working so they had a $50
unit designed. Then someone put a 5¢ screw in the part breaking lose and
cut the packaging down to $15.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
t...
"George" George@least wrote in message
Ed has missed the point, you may not have seen it.

Accidental success in no way justifies double dumb packaging, just as
one
swallow does not make a summer.

What point???? The product arrived unscathed. There is nothing more to
do.
Sure, the package could have been better in some respects for appearance,
but, it worked, You can't get it to do anything more than that. Since
it
arrived in a box larger than needed, do you expect the glasses to
multiply?
Be filled with beer? A cake to be in the pan? Ribbons and bows?
You ordered some items. They were shipped and arrived in perfect
condition.
The contract was fulfilled and payment was made. Perfect! You had no
loss.
Life is good.

The only point is that you received what you asked for in perfect
condition.
Nothing else matters. You should have no more expectations.



It's still a ****ty packing job, plain and simple

"Battleax" wrote in message
It's still a ****ty packing job, plain and simple

Does not have to look pretty to work. That costs extra.
Nothing damaged, product intact, job well done.