Just asking:

If the cost of Heating this winter goes up like the cost of Gas,

Should we be worried about cost of lumber due to increase in demand for
firewood?

And just how secure is my wood stash I have in the Garage? Should I be
looking for a better lock on the garage door?

There is talk that heating oil could go up a $1.00 per gallon, on top of the
high prices last winter. A couple of cords of wood is beginning to look
cheap.

Phil

Phil (in ) said:

| Just asking:
|
| If the cost of Heating this winter goes up like the cost of Gas,
|
| Should we be worried about cost of lumber due to increase in demand
| for firewood?

Not until people start buying lumber to put in their furnaces.

| And just how secure is my wood stash I have in the Garage? Should
| I be looking for a better lock on the garage door?

Depends on the wood. If you've stashed 2000BF of rosewood, then you'll
probably want /two/ locks.

| There is talk that heating oil could go up a $1.00 per gallon, on
| top of the high prices last winter. A couple of cords of wood is
| beginning to look cheap.

Yup - cut and split it yourself and it'll warm you twice.

It's probably worth pointing out that the prices of wind and sunshine
haven't changed...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

In article , Phil phil@one
wrote:

Should we be worried about cost of lumber due to increase in demand for
firewood?

Be more worried about the cost of lumber and firewood due to the
increased cost for the fuel to cut and transport the stuff.

djb

--
~ Stay Calm... Be Brave... Wait for the Signs ~
------------------------------------------------------
One site: http://www.balderstone.ca
The other site, with ww linkshttp://www.woodenwabbits.com

"Phil" no spam phil@one two three four five.com wrote in message

There is talk that heating oil could go up a $1.00 per gallon, on top of
the high prices last winter. A couple of cords of wood is beginning to
look cheap.

Phil


Talk? My oil contract this year is 93¢ more that last year. Current prices
in CT/MA are about $2.20.

Unless you cut your own wood, the cordwood prices tend to follow close
behind the oil prices.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:b2IMe.677$zb.64@trndny04...

"Phil" no spam phil@one two three four five.com wrote in message

There is talk that heating oil could go up a $1.00 per gallon, on top of
the high prices last winter. A couple of cords of wood is beginning to
look cheap.

Talk? My oil contract this year is 93¢ more that last year. Current
prices in CT/MA are about $2.20.

Unless you cut your own wood, the cordwood prices tend to follow close
behind the oil prices.


Ain't that the truth! Thing is, the price of hardwood pulp at the mill has
remained the same. Jobbers are just hooking us.

George wrote:

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:b2IMe.677$zb.64@trndny04...

"Phil" no spam phil@one two three four five.com wrote in message

There is talk that heating oil could go up a $1.00 per gallon, on top of
the high prices last winter. A couple of cords of wood is beginning to
look cheap.

Talk? My oil contract this year is 93¢ more that last year. Current
prices in CT/MA are about $2.20.

Unless you cut your own wood, the cordwood prices tend to follow close
behind the oil prices.


Ain't that the truth! Thing is, the price of hardwood pulp at the mill has
remained the same. Jobbers are just hooking us.

True of virtually all commodity markets...

"Edwin Pawlowski" writes:

Unless you cut your own wood, the cordwood prices tend to follow close
behind the oil prices.

Are the firewood folks really burning that much fuel to cut and haul
firewood, or is it all extra profit like the oil companies?

Brian Elfert

"Brian Elfert" wrote in message
...
"Edwin Pawlowski" writes:

Unless you cut your own wood, the cordwood prices tend to follow close
behind the oil prices.

Are the firewood folks really burning that much fuel to cut and haul
firewood, or is it all extra profit like the oil companies?

Brian Elfert

There is some fuel involved, but mostly "because then can". I'll have to
check out hte prices now, but last year, one supplier was getting $175 a
cord. My rule of thumb is 1 cord = 100 gallons of oil so it did not pay to
do all the labor of cutting, hauling it in, etc. Oh get near the big cities
and that $175 cord was $300 in Boston.

"Brian Elfert" wrote in message
...
"Edwin Pawlowski" writes:

Unless you cut your own wood, the cordwood prices tend to follow close
behind the oil prices.

Are the firewood folks really burning that much fuel to cut and haul
firewood, or is it all extra profit like the oil companies?


Take our situation. They can haul it sixty miles one way and get ~$65 a
cord (sells by weight, not volume) as pulp, or ten miles and hook George for
$90.

Oil companies are making more or less the same per cent profit as always per
barrel, but if the price goes up, the total dollars do as well, enabling the
press to state that their profits are "at record levels."

"George" George@least writes:

Oil companies are making more or less the same per cent profit as always per
barrel, but if the price goes up, the total dollars do as well, enabling the
press to state that their profits are "at record levels."

I've not done this, but I bet if someone calculated the percentage of
profit versus revenue that the oil companies are making a higher
percentage these days.

Any company that doesn't have higher profits year after year isn't keeping
up with the yearly growth in the economy.

Brian Elfert

Brian Elfert wrote:

"George" George@least writes:

Oil companies are making more or less the same per cent profit as always per
barrel, but if the price goes up, the total dollars do as well, enabling the
press to state that their profits are "at record levels."

I've not done this, but I bet if someone calculated the percentage of
profit versus revenue that the oil companies are making a higher
percentage these days.

Any company that doesn't have higher profits year after year isn't keeping
up with the yearly growth in the economy.


Reading annual/quarterly earnings reports indicates that quite a few
aren't, then...

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Brian Elfert wrote:

"George" George@least writes:

Oil companies are making more or less the same per cent profit as always per
barrel, but if the price goes up, the total dollars do as well, enabling the
press to state that their profits are "at record levels."

I've not done this, but I bet if someone calculated the percentage of
profit versus revenue that the oil companies are making a higher
percentage these days.

Any company that doesn't have higher profits year after year isn't keeping
up with the yearly growth in the economy.


Reading annual/quarterly earnings reports indicates that quite a few
aren't, then...

AFAIK, it's unusual for a profit percentage to increase, or drop, by a
whole lot. What usually happens is more of an item is sold, at the same
percentage of profit, so that there is a gain in profitability. There
are numerous tactics for increasing profits that include dropping the
profit per unit sold, in order to increase the number of units sold.

I read somewhere that one major oil company had a 40% increase in
profits, while another had a 60% increase. There was no way to tell
what method was used, but I do know that distributors who are attaching
what appears to be 6-8 cents a day to gasoline prices are not doing it
because the refinery is passing that along. When a barrel of oil goes
up, the price of the gasoline goes up, and the price of the gasoline to
the refinery/distributor has not yet risen, and may not for a week or
two. Thus, the public is getting gouged rather nicely. One local outfit
priced their gas at $2.39.9 when the truck filled their tanks. That
price increased to $2.47.9 today, though no truck has been near the
place. What happened? I think the owner drove through town and realized
he was a dime under anyone else, so he tacked most of that on.

Profiteering is not at all unusual in such situations. I don't know
whether it is moral or not, but I do know that I'd rather pay more for
gas with a dealer who prices it honestly from the start than I would
from one who pops the price based on what he discovers the market will
bear after he has set his normal profit percentage.

Australopithecus scobis writes:

and anonymous correspondents on Usenet. (Full disclosu The family is
about to do the summer vacation thang in a Jeep Cherokee. Whoops.)

A Cherokee is a fairly efficient SUV compared with Suburbans, Tahoes,
Expeditions, gas-powered Excursions and the like.

I am going on a 4,000 miles trip in September with 3 or 4 of my buddies.
We will get a whopping 8.5 to 9.5 MPG on diesel. We will tow an RV.

My regular car gets 40MPG as I don't drive my truck that much especially
now.

Brian Elfert

"George" George@least wrote in :


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:b2IMe.677$zb.64@trndny04...

"Phil" no spam phil@one two three four five.com wrote in message

There is talk that heating oil could go up a $1.00 per gallon, on
top of the high prices last winter. A couple of cords of wood is
beginning to look cheap.

Talk? My oil contract this year is 93¢ more that last year. Current
prices in CT/MA are about $2.20.

Unless you cut your own wood, the cordwood prices tend to follow
close behind the oil prices.


Ain't that the truth! Thing is, the price of hardwood pulp at the
mill has remained the same. Jobbers are just hooking us.



Economists will describe this as a demand pull for alternate, or substitute
goods. Economists are a dour lot.

Buy a good chain saw and a used pickup truck. Oh, and a lathe.

Patriarch,
who once upon a time...

"Charlie Self" wrote in message

AFAIK, it's unusual for a profit percentage to increase, or drop, by a
whole lot. What usually happens is more of an item is sold, at the same
percentage of profit, so that there is a gain in profitability. There
are numerous tactics for increasing profits that include dropping the
profit per unit sold, in order to increase the number of units sold.

I read somewhere that one major oil company had a 40% increase in
profits, while another had a 60% increase. There was no way to tell
what method was used,

Percentages can be mis-leading also. If Mobil had sales last year of $1
billion and made $1 profit and this year they sold $2 billion but the profit
was $1.60, you could report a 60% increase in earnings.


but I do know that distributors who are attaching
what appears to be 6-8 cents a day to gasoline prices are not doing it
because the refinery is passing that along. When a barrel of oil goes
up, the price of the gasoline goes up, and the price of the gasoline to
the refinery/distributor has not yet risen, and may not for a week or
two. Thus, the public is getting gouged rather nicely. One local outfit
priced their gas at $2.39.9 when the truck filled their tanks. That
price increased to $2.47.9 today, though no truck has been near the
place. What happened? I think the owner drove through town and realized
he was a dime under anyone else, so he tacked most of that on.

The dealers are told (not requsted) by the distributor to change prices. I
know of an instance last year by a local dealer that did not want to
increase for the second time the same day. He was politely told he may not
get any more deliveries if he did not raise them.

I got lucky last week. Prices went up 9¢ and they were getting a delivery
and changing the signs while I was pumping. Five minutes later . . . .


Profiteering is not at all unusual in such situations. I don't know
whether it is moral or not, but I do know that I'd rather pay more for
gas with a dealer who prices it honestly from the start than I would
from one who pops the price based on what he discovers the market will
bear after he has set his normal profit percentage.

I'd like to know who is making the money. Dealer? Distributor? Refiner?
Arabs? All of the above?

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
oups.com...
AFAIK, it's unusual for a profit percentage to increase, or drop, by a
whole lot. What usually happens is more of an item is sold, at the same
percentage of profit, so that there is a gain in profitability. There
are numerous tactics for increasing profits that include dropping the
profit per unit sold, in order to increase the number of units sold.

The supply/demand curve for gasoline is different that most of the other
products that we purchase.

I read somewhere that one major oil company had a 40% increase in
profits, while another had a 60% increase. There was no way to tell
what method was used, but I do know that distributors who are attaching
what appears to be 6-8 cents a day to gasoline prices are not doing it
because the refinery is passing that along. When a barrel of oil goes
up, the price of the gasoline goes up, and the price of the gasoline to
the refinery/distributor has not yet risen, and may not for a week or
two. Thus, the public is getting gouged rather nicely. One local outfit
priced their gas at $2.39.9 when the truck filled their tanks. That
price increased to $2.47.9 today, though no truck has been near the
place. What happened? I think the owner drove through town and realized
he was a dime under anyone else, so he tacked most of that on.

Welcome to commodity economics.

Profiteering is not at all unusual in such situations. I don't know
whether it is moral or not, but I do know that I'd rather pay more for
gas with a dealer who prices it honestly from the start than I would
from one who pops the price based on what he discovers the market will
bear after he has set his normal profit percentage.

I don't know where competitive pricing stops and price gouging starts.
Unfortunately, based on our purchasing habits, we don't give the oil
companies much incentive to lower prices.

As an aside, here's something interesting I found. On an inflation-adjusted
basis (2005 dollars), the price of crude oil peaked in the early 80s at
$84.29/bbl. In fact, from the late 70s through the early 80's, crude oil
cost more than it does now. Of course, you'll never hear that in a
newscast, because it suits their purpose to report "record oil prices".
Here's another one...in the early 70's, crude oil traded at (again in 2005
dollars) $9.03/bbl.

todd

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
t...

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
Profiteering is not at all unusual in such situations. I don't know
whether it is moral or not, but I do know that I'd rather pay more for
gas with a dealer who prices it honestly from the start than I would
from one who pops the price based on what he discovers the market will
bear after he has set his normal profit percentage.

I'd like to know who is making the money. Dealer? Distributor? Refiner?
Arabs? All of the above?

Well, if you were invested in Shell Oil, you would have made 30% over the
past year. Obviously, the crude oil producers make out like bandits. I'm
pretty sure nobody in the supply chain is going broke.

I'm actually surprised that gas prices have been as low historically as they
have been. I'm not an economist, but I bet the demand curve for gasoline is
highly inelastic (I think I'm using the correct term here...it's been a
while since Econ 101). What I hope that means is that the demand for
gasoline is not affected greatly by the price. But, as happened in the 70s,
I think the gas prices are starting to get people's attention. Demand for
hybrid vehicles is very strong and I would hope that fuel efficiency is very
high on people's concerns when purchasing a car. I'm sensitive to this as I
currently have to drive 60 miles per day to get to work. The change I've
made is that I've started taking the train most of the time. It's somewhat
inconvenient as I have to take the train downtown and then catch another
going out to the suburb I work in, but I don't have to sit in traffic and
can do my technical reading on the ride. At least I can when some crackhead
isn't sitting next to me singing for 30 minutes straight.

todd

Todd Fatheree wrote:

As an aside, here's something interesting I found. On an inflation-adjusted
basis (2005 dollars), the price of crude oil peaked in the early 80s at
$84.29/bbl. In fact, from the late 70s through the early 80's, crude oil
cost more than it does now. Of course, you'll never hear that in a
newscast, because it suits their purpose to report "record oil prices".
Here's another one...in the early 70's, crude oil traded at (again in 2005
dollars) $9.03/bbl.


Maybe where you live, but in the SE U.S., we got that news last week,
the week before and the week before that. Regional TV newscast and the
local "liberal" paper both covered it.

No big deal. I still don't like paying closer to three bucks a gallon
than is comfortable.

One pundit, as noted earlier, has stated that it's likely gasoline will
hit $4.67 a gallon by years' end. I was predicting three buck gas
months ago, around here (and this is one of the lowest priced areas in
the U.S.).

The rationales are almost excessively simple. In Europe, it's political
greed (taxes) added to high oil prices; here, it's greed, period, not
tied to any particular political party.

Australopithecus scobis wrote:
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:18:52 -0700, Charlie Self wrote:

Thus, the public is getting gouged rather nicely. One local outfit
priced their gas at $2.39.9 when the truck filled their tanks. That
price increased to $2.47.9 today, though no truck has been near the
place. What happened? I think the owner drove through town and realized
he was a dime under anyone else, so he tacked most of that on.

Profiteering is not at all unusual in such situations. I don't know
whether it is moral or not, but I do know that I'd rather pay more for
gas with a dealer who prices it honestly from the start than I would
from one who pops the price based on what he discovers the market will
bear after he has set his normal profit percentage.


The retail dealer has to charge replacement cost, so no truck is
necessary for a price hike. Took a long time for me to understand that
point.

The previous poster's choice to choose a dealer who doesn't profiteer is a
nice example of what some economists don't like to admit: that there are
non-economic considerations in economic decisions.

Remember, we lowly consumers have power too: it's just more diffuse and
harder to marshal. Carpool, buy domestically, walk; just don't buy your
usual amount of gas. Suggest the same thing to your friends, coworkers,
and anonymous correspondents on Usenet. (Full disclosu The family is
about to do the summer vacation thang in a Jeep Cherokee. Whoops.)


The reason you took a long time to understand "replacement cost" as a
charge from dealers is because it is utter bull****. I bought a
briefcase the other day, and paid for it based on what the seller had
paid, not on what the seller is GOING to pay for his next bit of stock.
Once he gets the new stock in, the then raises prices.

Carpooling? Uh, I live in the country and work at home. Not effective.
Actually, not possible. I use about one tank of gas every 2-1/2 weeks
in my pick-up (Chev S10 gutless wonder). We probably use more in the
car, but that's a 30 MPG Stratus (Dodge's ultimate POS). We time our
town visits so when I need something, my wife does shopping, etc.
Believe me, that's a royal PITA but probably will become more and more
necessary as time goes on. I also don't zip into town for one item
anymore, unless it is essential to the success of an article that is
deadlined.

I may be back on a small motorcycle soon, though I quit riding when I
moved down here 28 years ago. If there is still a 250cc road bike out
there, or even off road, I might be able to up my 25-30 MPG vehicles to
55-60 MPG. I don't always need even a small pick up bed for my treks
into town, nor do I need the extra space in a car to go to, for
example, the library.

Yeah, all that said, I'll be heading to the truck terminals in Roanoke
(about 35-40 miles away, call it 85 miles round trip) in a buddy's
over-sized Ford pick-up to grab two jointers for an article. My truck
won't handle the size or the weight, so I buy him at least 20 bucks
worth of gas for that one trip. Probably $30 just to be nice.

"Patriarch" wrote in message
. 97.136...

Buy a good chain saw and a used pickup truck. Oh, and a lathe.

The price is worth not skidding wood on my place, that's why I'm still
buying, just a bit cheesed at the gouging.

This hauler brings, at my request, two or three cords of large stuff as
lathe fodder. Paid the whole ten cords and more in turnings just last
Saturday.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
oups.com...

The reason you took a long time to understand "replacement cost" as a
charge from dealers is because it is utter bull****. I bought a
briefcase the other day, and paid for it based on what the seller had
paid, not on what the seller is GOING to pay for his next bit of stock.
Once he gets the new stock in, the then raises prices.


You charge people for work in your shop based on purchase price of the
lumber, then go out and get replacement stock? You're a saint.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
t...

I'd like to know who is making the money. Dealer? Distributor? Refiner?
Arabs? All of the above?



Even at today's prices, the average state/federal bite of $0.38 per gallon
makes government the big winner when you fill up.

"Todd Fatheree" wrote in message
...

As an aside, here's something interesting I found. On an
inflation-adjusted
basis (2005 dollars), the price of crude oil peaked in the early 80s at
$84.29/bbl. In fact, from the late 70s through the early 80's, crude oil
cost more than it does now. Of course, you'll never hear that in a
newscast, because it suits their purpose to report "record oil prices".
Here's another one...in the early 70's, crude oil traded at (again in 2005
dollars) $9.03/bbl.


Lies, damned lies, and statistics again.

Profit margins?

Low-cost Chinese goods distort the CPI, then you go ahead and do it again.

George wrote:
"Charlie Self" wrote in message
oups.com...

The reason you took a long time to understand "replacement cost" as a
charge from dealers is because it is utter bull****. I bought a
briefcase the other day, and paid for it based on what the seller had
paid, not on what the seller is GOING to pay for his next bit of stock.
Once he gets the new stock in, the then raises prices.


You charge people for work in your shop based on purchase price of the
lumber, then go out and get replacement stock? You're a saint.

You are not exactly making a statement there. I charge for what I am
using, or plan to use, based on current costs. I cannot charge for
replacement costs, because I don't know if they'll be higher or
lower...obviously, with gasoline in recent years, higher is the trend,
but that's not true of everything, yet. The higher cost of transport
and our totally asinine transport system has to catch up, sooner or
later, with sooner being my bet.

But the fact remains, if I drive around town to see what others are
charging for what I already have on hand before pricing something to a
customer, then I'm putting myself in a strange position. I KNOW what I
paid for it. I KNOW how much I need. I do NOT know what replacement
cost will be.

As an incidental point, I didn't notice a damned one of these dealers
knocking off a nickel or a dime when they could tell that tanker load
prices were dropping a few months ago. Nope. They waited until the new
product was in the tank before dropping the price. Funny thing. I
figure it is a similar deal with raising prices.

If it isn't, it's no wonder no one respects businesspeople anymore.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
oups.com...

If it isn't, it's no wonder no one respects businesspeople anymore.


Business is about making money. What you want goes under the name of
charity.

George wrote:
"Charlie Self" wrote in message
oups.com...

If it isn't, it's no wonder no one respects businesspeople anymore.


Business is about making money. What you want goes under the name of
charity.

And that attitude is what is wrong with business today. I've been a
small businessman since at least '68, and to date I haven't found it
necessary to screw my clients out of the last dime in order to get by.

Charlie Self wrote:

George wrote:
"Charlie Self" wrote in message
oups.com...

If it isn't, it's no wonder no one respects businesspeople anymore.


Business is about making money. What you want goes under the name of
charity.

And that attitude is what is wrong with business today. I've been a
small businessman since at least '68, and to date I haven't found it
necessary to screw my clients out of the last dime in order to get by.

I'm sorta' w/ ya' on this, Charlie, altho I understand the other as
well...

Unfortunately, it's the distributors who control the pump prices
(essentially, local markups are pretty competitive in most places) and
they seem to be, as you note, very prompt in the up direction, not so
prompt in the other...

I don't have data on what the refiners are doing (in the relatively few
cases where they and the major distributors aren't the same)...I suspect
the independents are following the big boys because they'd get crushed
if they didn't.

Charlie Self wrote:
....
The rationales are almost excessively simple. In Europe, it's political
greed (taxes) added to high oil prices; ...

Actually, for the most part it's more into they're getting into serious
social engineering much earlier than we...

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Charlie Self wrote:


And that attitude is what is wrong with business today. I've been a
small businessman since at least '68, and to date I haven't found it
necessary to screw my clients out of the last dime in order to get by.

I'm sorta' w/ ya' on this, Charlie, altho I understand the other as
well...

Unfortunately, it's the distributors who control the pump prices
(essentially, local markups are pretty competitive in most places) and
they seem to be, as you note, very prompt in the up direction, not so
prompt in the other...

I don't have data on what the refiners are doing (in the relatively few
cases where they and the major distributors aren't the same)...I suspect
the independents are following the big boys because they'd get crushed
if they didn't.

What I was writing of was at the local station level. Go in Friday and
see a truck filling the tanks, and an 8 cent increase on the pump. Go
by Sunday, and see another 8 cent increase, and another on Wednesday,
but the next truck doesn't arrive until that Friday.

That's neither distributor nor refiner. Just neighbor screwing neighbor
out of a few bucks.

Charlie Self wrote:

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Charlie Self wrote:


And that attitude is what is wrong with business today. I've been a
small businessman since at least '68, and to date I haven't found it
necessary to screw my clients out of the last dime in order to get by.

I'm sorta' w/ ya' on this, Charlie, altho I understand the other as
well...

Unfortunately, it's the distributors who control the pump prices
(essentially, local markups are pretty competitive in most places) and
they seem to be, as you note, very prompt in the up direction, not so
prompt in the other...

I don't have data on what the refiners are doing (in the relatively few
cases where they and the major distributors aren't the same)...I suspect
the independents are following the big boys because they'd get crushed
if they didn't.

What I was writing of was at the local station level. Go in Friday and
see a truck filling the tanks, and an 8 cent increase on the pump. Go
by Sunday, and see another 8 cent increase, and another on Wednesday,
but the next truck doesn't arrive until that Friday.

That's neither distributor nor refiner. Just neighbor screwing neighbor
out of a few bucks.

Actually, if you were to investigate, you would probably find that each
of those increases at the local station did reflect costs his
distributor had just passed on to him...I know for a fact that's what
happens here as I know two local re-distributors/retailer wells as well
as knowing what we do on the driveway pumps at the local farmers' coop
of which I am a member...

Here in this last week we got hit w/ two increases in one afternoon
plust another the next day...

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Charlie Self wrote:

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Charlie Self wrote:


And that attitude is what is wrong with business today. I've been a
small businessman since at least '68, and to date I haven't found it
necessary to screw my clients out of the last dime in order to get by.

I'm sorta' w/ ya' on this, Charlie, altho I understand the other as
well...

Unfortunately, it's the distributors who control the pump prices
(essentially, local markups are pretty competitive in most places) and
they seem to be, as you note, very prompt in the up direction, not so
prompt in the other...

I don't have data on what the refiners are doing (in the relatively few
cases where they and the major distributors aren't the same)...I suspect
the independents are following the big boys because they'd get crushed
if they didn't.

What I was writing of was at the local station level. Go in Friday and
see a truck filling the tanks, and an 8 cent increase on the pump. Go
by Sunday, and see another 8 cent increase, and another on Wednesday,
but the next truck doesn't arrive until that Friday.

That's neither distributor nor refiner. Just neighbor screwing neighbor
out of a few bucks.

Actually, if you were to investigate, you would probably find that each
of those increases at the local station did reflect costs his
distributor had just passed on to him...I know for a fact that's what
happens here as I know two local re-distributors/retailer wells as well
as knowing what we do on the driveway pumps at the local farmers' coop
of which I am a member...

Here in this last week we got hit w/ two increases in one afternoon
plust another the next day...

Possible, though I'm inclined to doubt it. This stuff comes COD to the
dealer (country store). He pays as soon as it's pumped into his tanks.
That's it. No more to that transaction.

"George" George@least wrote in message
...

"Todd Fatheree" wrote in message
...

As an aside, here's something interesting I found. On an
inflation-adjusted
basis (2005 dollars), the price of crude oil peaked in the early 80s at
$84.29/bbl. In fact, from the late 70s through the early 80's, crude
oil
cost more than it does now. Of course, you'll never hear that in a
newscast, because it suits their purpose to report "record oil prices".
Here's another one...in the early 70's, crude oil traded at (again in
2005
dollars) $9.03/bbl.


Lies, damned lies, and statistics again.

Profit margins?

Low-cost Chinese goods distort the CPI, then you go ahead and do it again.

If you'd like to give us the real figures, I'm all ears.

todd

Charlie Self wrote:

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Charlie Self wrote:

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Charlie Self wrote:


And that attitude is what is wrong with business today. I've been a
small businessman since at least '68, and to date I haven't found it
necessary to screw my clients out of the last dime in order to get by.

I'm sorta' w/ ya' on this, Charlie, altho I understand the other as
well...

Unfortunately, it's the distributors who control the pump prices
(essentially, local markups are pretty competitive in most places) and
they seem to be, as you note, very prompt in the up direction, not so
prompt in the other...

I don't have data on what the refiners are doing (in the relatively few
cases where they and the major distributors aren't the same)...I suspect
the independents are following the big boys because they'd get crushed
if they didn't.

What I was writing of was at the local station level. Go in Friday and
see a truck filling the tanks, and an 8 cent increase on the pump. Go
by Sunday, and see another 8 cent increase, and another on Wednesday,
but the next truck doesn't arrive until that Friday.

That's neither distributor nor refiner. Just neighbor screwing neighbor
out of a few bucks.

Actually, if you were to investigate, you would probably find that each
of those increases at the local station did reflect costs his
distributor had just passed on to him...I know for a fact that's what
happens here as I know two local re-distributors/retailer wells as well
as knowing what we do on the driveway pumps at the local farmers' coop
of which I am a member...

Here in this last week we got hit w/ two increases in one afternoon
plust another the next day...

Possible, though I'm inclined to doubt it. This stuff comes COD to the
dealer (country store). He pays as soon as it's pumped into his tanks.
That's it. No more to that transaction.

I'm still expecting he's getting notices regularly from his distributor
and simply posting them at that time as are most other retailers...

"Todd Fatheree" wrote in message
...
"George" George@least wrote in message
...

"Todd Fatheree" wrote in message
...

As an aside, here's something interesting I found. On an
inflation-adjusted
basis (2005 dollars), the price of crude oil peaked in the early 80s at
$84.29/bbl. In fact, from the late 70s through the early 80's, crude
oil
cost more than it does now. Of course, you'll never hear that in a
newscast, because it suits their purpose to report "record oil prices".
Here's another one...in the early 70's, crude oil traded at (again in
2005
dollars) $9.03/bbl.


Lies, damned lies, and statistics again.

Profit margins?

Low-cost Chinese goods distort the CPI, then you go ahead and do it
again.

If you'd like to give us the real figures, I'm all ears.

The cost was X dollars per barrel. Dollar was a dollar. Adjustments are a
fantasy based on conditions which did not pertain at the time. Of course,
liars do figure ... when the outcome suits 'em.

Now the cost of a barrel of oil adjusted for 1897 dollars was ...
meaningless!
..

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...

I'm still expecting he's getting notices regularly from his distributor
and simply posting them at that time as are most other retailers...

Not to mention his station has a contract with the distributor, even if it's
not actually franchised from them, which specifies his rights and
obligations.

George wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...

I'm still expecting he's getting notices regularly from his distributor
and simply posting them at that time as are most other retailers...

Not to mention his station has a contract with the distributor, even if it's
not actually franchised from them, which specifies his rights and
obligations.

And those are written w/ a whole lot more "obligations" than "rights",
for sure...

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:37:34 -0500, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

Charlie Self wrote:

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Charlie Self wrote:

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Charlie Self wrote:


And that attitude is what is wrong with business today. I've been a
small businessman since at least '68, and to date I haven't found it
necessary to screw my clients out of the last dime in order to get by.

I'm sorta' w/ ya' on this, Charlie, altho I understand the other as
well...

Unfortunately, it's the distributors who control the pump prices
(essentially, local markups are pretty competitive in most places) and
they seem to be, as you note, very prompt in the up direction, not so
prompt in the other...

I don't have data on what the refiners are doing (in the relatively few
cases where they and the major distributors aren't the same)...I suspect
the independents are following the big boys because they'd get crushed
if they didn't.

What I was writing of was at the local station level. Go in Friday and
see a truck filling the tanks, and an 8 cent increase on the pump. Go
by Sunday, and see another 8 cent increase, and another on Wednesday,
but the next truck doesn't arrive until that Friday.

That's neither distributor nor refiner. Just neighbor screwing neighbor
out of a few bucks.

Actually, if you were to investigate, you would probably find that each
of those increases at the local station did reflect costs his
distributor had just passed on to him...I know for a fact that's what
happens here as I know two local re-distributors/retailer wells as well
as knowing what we do on the driveway pumps at the local farmers' coop
of which I am a member...

Here in this last week we got hit w/ two increases in one afternoon
plust another the next day...

Possible, though I'm inclined to doubt it. This stuff comes COD to the
dealer (country store). He pays as soon as it's pumped into his tanks.
That's it. No more to that transaction.

I'm still expecting he's getting notices regularly from his distributor
and simply posting them at that time as are most other retailers...

I think Charlie is trying to say you should sell things based on what
you paid for them, not based on what you are going to have to pay to
replace them in the normal course of business. I disagree. If the
wholesale price of gas goes up $.05, it is immaterial how much I paid
for the gas currently in my storage tank, the real question is how
much do I have to pay to replace whatever I sell to you at the pump.
The difference between my current replacement cost and my current pump
price is my real profit. Yeah, I wrote that as if I owned a station. I
don't, but the concept is the same whether we talk gas, bread or
houses. As an exagerated example, If you bought a house 20 years ago
the price you would want to sell it for would have nothing to do with
the price you paid, but a lot to do with what it is going to cost you
to replace that house so that you still have a place to live.

Dave Hall

"George" George@least wrote in message
...


Lies, damned lies, and statistics again.

Profit margins?

Low-cost Chinese goods distort the CPI, then you go ahead and do it
again.

If you'd like to give us the real figures, I'm all ears.

The cost was X dollars per barrel. Dollar was a dollar. Adjustments are
a
fantasy based on conditions which did not pertain at the time. Of course,
liars do figure ... when the outcome suits 'em.

Now the cost of a barrel of oil adjusted for 1897 dollars was ...
meaningless!

Is the comparison perfect? I'm sure it isn't. But to say that the
adjustments for inflation are meaningless is a lie. So, you don't believe
any of the reports regarding a decline in "real" wages compared to 10 or 20
years ago either, right?

todd

George wrote:
"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...

I'm still expecting he's getting notices regularly from his distributor
and simply posting them at that time as are most other retailers...

Not to mention his station has a contract with the distributor, even if it's
not actually franchised from them, which specifies his rights and
obligations.

That shows you don't know a thing about how country stores operate.
These guys will not accept contracts from any one distributor.

Dave Hall wrote:
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:37:34 -0500, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

Charlie Self wrote:

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Charlie Self wrote:

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Charlie Self wrote:


And that attitude is what is wrong with business today. I've been a
small businessman since at least '68, and to date I haven't found it
necessary to screw my clients out of the last dime in order to get by.

I'm sorta' w/ ya' on this, Charlie, altho I understand the other as
well...

Unfortunately, it's the distributors who control the pump prices
(essentially, local markups are pretty competitive in most places) and
they seem to be, as you note, very prompt in the up direction, not so
prompt in the other...

I don't have data on what the refiners are doing (in the relatively few
cases where they and the major distributors aren't the same)...I suspect
the independents are following the big boys because they'd get crushed
if they didn't.

What I was writing of was at the local station level. Go in Friday and
see a truck filling the tanks, and an 8 cent increase on the pump. Go
by Sunday, and see another 8 cent increase, and another on Wednesday,
but the next truck doesn't arrive until that Friday.

That's neither distributor nor refiner. Just neighbor screwing neighbor
out of a few bucks.

Actually, if you were to investigate, you would probably find that each
of those increases at the local station did reflect costs his
distributor had just passed on to him...I know for a fact that's what
happens here as I know two local re-distributors/retailer wells as well
as knowing what we do on the driveway pumps at the local farmers' coop
of which I am a member...

Here in this last week we got hit w/ two increases in one afternoon
plust another the next day...

Possible, though I'm inclined to doubt it. This stuff comes COD to the
dealer (country store). He pays as soon as it's pumped into his tanks.
That's it. No more to that transaction.

I'm still expecting he's getting notices regularly from his distributor
and simply posting them at that time as are most other retailers...

I think Charlie is trying to say you should sell things based on what
you paid for them, not based on what you are going to have to pay to
replace them in the normal course of business. I disagree. If the
wholesale price of gas goes up $.05, it is immaterial how much I paid
for the gas currently in my storage tank, the real question is how
much do I have to pay to replace whatever I sell to you at the pump.
The difference between my current replacement cost and my current pump
price is my real profit. Yeah, I wrote that as if I owned a station. I
don't, but the concept is the same whether we talk gas, bread or
houses. As an exagerated example, If you bought a house 20 years ago
the price you would want to sell it for would have nothing to do with
the price you paid, but a lot to do with what it is going to cost you
to replace that house so that you still have a place to live.

Dave Hall

Specious analogy. If you sell houses for a living, you might make the
comparison and call it valid. But to say you live in a house and have
to get more for it than you paid so you can pay replacement costs is
not any kind of analogical situation.

You and George are a business shark's dream.