In article , Fly-by-Night CC wrote:
In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

Yes, sometimes things get ****ed up so bad that they can't be fixed by
an incompetant military strategy. I don't consider Johnson to be an
example of a great strategist, do you?

Gee, I thought Nixon entered office in '69... that left almost 5 years
for a Republican president to straighten it out with his brilliant
military strategy.

Yes, and we were winning the war under Nixon, too, until the
Democrat-controlled Congress cut him off at the knees.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Fly-by-Night CC wrote:
In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

It wasn't about his infidelities, it was about him not having the balls
to own up to them. Looked right in the camera and told the world he
hadn't done it, remember? Then, did the same with congress.

Of course it was about his infidelities -

After his deposition it became about perjury.

But let's not change the subject?


Anyone else see a parallel with the Plame debacle?

Oh well.

Nor really. Clinton (probably) committed a crime while hiding
a non-crime from everyone including his own lawyers. None of
his people (aside from Lewinsky) were involved in an offense.
One guy broke the law to protect himself and didn't (much) get
away with it.

The Bush/Cheney aids probably committed a crime and they have been
retained in the administration because they cmomitted their crime
against the nation for reasons of political loyalty. The present
case shows that the President/VP value loyalty to themselves over
loyalty to the nation. At least a couple of guys broke the law
and the rest, from the top down, closed ranks with them to protect
them.

There is a huge difference.

--

FF

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Fly-by-Night CC wrote:
In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

Yes, sometimes things get ****ed up so bad that they can't be fixed by
an incompetant military strategy. I don't consider Johnson to be an
example of a great strategist, do you?

Gee, I thought Nixon entered office in '69... that left almost 5 years
for a Republican president to straighten it out with his brilliant
military strategy.

Yes, and we were winning the war under Nixon, too, until the
Democrat-controlled Congress cut him off at the knees.


Nixon self-destructed.

The (Democratically-controlled) Congress cut off support for South
Viet Nam under Ford.

Morally, we (meanig our side, not just the US) went wrong in Viet Nam
long befor that with the violations of the 1954 treaty and the
assasination of Diem.

--

FF

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:12:26 -0700, Fly-by-Night CC wrote:
In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

Yes, sometimes things get ****ed up so bad that they can't be fixed by
an incompetant military strategy. I don't consider Johnson to be an
example of a great strategist, do you?

Gee, I thought Nixon entered office in '69... that left almost 5 years
for a Republican president to straighten it out with his brilliant
military strategy.

So, if a democrat takes over the presidency next time, you're saying
that no matter what W ****s up in Iraq, the democrat can fix?

Dave Hinz wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:12:26 -0700, Fly-by-Night CC wrote:
In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

Yes, sometimes things get ****ed up so bad that they can't be fixed by
an incompetant military strategy. I don't consider Johnson to be an
example of a great strategist, do you?

Gee, I thought Nixon entered office in '69... that left almost 5 years
for a Republican president to straighten it out with his brilliant
military strategy.

So, if a democrat takes over the presidency next time, you're saying
that no matter what W ****s up in Iraq, the democrat can fix?

We'd better hope so, 'cause he's setting records so far.

In article .com, wrote:

Nor really. Clinton (probably) committed a crime while hiding
a non-crime from everyone including his own lawyers. None of
his people (aside from Lewinsky) were involved in an offense.
One guy broke the law to protect himself and didn't (much) get
away with it.

Not correct. At least not if by "a non-crime" you're referring to the blow
job. *Any* sexual contact between a supervisory federal employee and a
subordinate is a violation of federal sexual harrassment law, without regard
to whether the act is consensual or not.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article .com, wrote:


Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Fly-by-Night
CC wrote:
In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

Yes, sometimes things get ****ed up so bad that they can't be fixed by
an incompetant military strategy. I don't consider Johnson to be an
example of a great strategist, do you?

Gee, I thought Nixon entered office in '69... that left almost 5 years
for a Republican president to straighten it out with his brilliant
military strategy.

Yes, and we were winning the war under Nixon, too, until the
Democrat-controlled Congress cut him off at the knees.


Nixon self-destructed.

True, but that had nothing to do with the war (except to the extent that his
political destruction enabled Congress to prevent us actually winning the war,
as we were doing).

The (Democratically-controlled) Congress cut off support for South
Viet Nam under Ford.

Technically true, but misleading, and scarcely relevant, as the South was
already in deep s**t by that time. The Paris peace accords decreed a
cease-fire in January 1973. The position of the US at that time was that if
the North violated the cease-fire agreement, we would resume bombing of North
Viet Nam. In August 1973, Congress voted to require the President to obtain
their approval before resuming bombing; the North invaded the South a few
weeks later. That was a *year* before Ford took office. My statement stands:
the Democrat-controlled Congress cut Nixon off at the knees.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article .com, "Charlie Self" wrote:


Dave Hinz wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:12:26 -0700, Fly-by-Night CC
wrote:
In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

Yes, sometimes things get ****ed up so bad that they can't be fixed by
an incompetant military strategy. I don't consider Johnson to be an
example of a great strategist, do you?

Gee, I thought Nixon entered office in '69... that left almost 5 years
for a Republican president to straighten it out with his brilliant
military strategy.

So, if a democrat takes over the presidency next time, you're saying
that no matter what W ****s up in Iraq, the democrat can fix?

We'd better hope so, 'cause he's setting records so far.

Exactly how many al Qaida terrorists did "Blow Job" Clinton manage to arrest
or kill?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Dave Hinz (in ) said:

| On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:00:02 -0500, Morris Dovey
| wrote:
|| Dave Hinz (in ) said:
||
||| Well, it's not like they don't continue to do staggeringly stupid
||| things over and over. And my knowledge is based on personal
||| experience with several trips to France; I'm not just repeating
||| what I've heard when I say that Paris is beautiful but smells
||| awful, for instance. I'm also not just parroting something I've
||| read or heard when I say that the French were astonishingly rude,
||| both in Paris and Calais.
|
|| I've heard this from other visitors; and admit that I felt a
|| certain trepidation about traveling to France. I'd been told to
|| expect a cold rudeness and that I could expect to be looked down
|| upon if I couldn't speak French well (I don't.)
|
| It's not just speaking French; you need to speak the _right_ French.
| First time I was there, was Paris in 1986 or so. Went with a
| French-speaking family from Belgium. Alas, they spoke the 'wrong
| French'. But, it wasn't just our group that was getting the
| treatment; the French were being rude to each other as well.

Perhaps "wrong" French - but I hope to tell you that it doesn't get
much "wronger" than mine. :-)

Sounds like you arrived right at the end of a hectic tourist season -
and it sounds as if there might have been a lot of stress going
around. I arrived after the normal tourist season (but while the
weather was still nice) so as to take advantage of off-season pricing.
People didn't seem rushed or stressed (other than over the attacks in
New York, DC, and Pennsylvania - and the bombing in Toulouse.)

When I arrived I took the Metro from the airport to one of the train
stations (can't remember which) and trained to Epinal. Stayed
overnight in Epinal to shed the jet lag, then taxi'd next morning to
pick up a rented barge on the Saonne. Ten days of traveling on one of
Nappy's canals at ~5 knots, with pauses at just about every town
(cycle from barge for exercise, then conversation, wine, cheese,
bread, occasional salad fixin's) and lock house (wine, local fruit,
and conversation) slowed the tempo of life to something reasonable.

The rural French are very much like rural Iowans. They're hard-working
and deliberate - not inclined to be in more hurry than necessary - and
were universally willing to pause to give directions and tell a bit
about their town.

Here in Iowa, farm homes are normally situated on the farm itself. The
French farmers live in villages and "commute" to their fields -
leaving wives and dependants free to operate small businesses out of
their homes and to have more opportunity to socialize than their
American counterparts. I suspect that their arrangement minimizes the
isolation that many of our farm families sometimes feel.

| Calais, in 1992-93. Was there during an extended stay in England.
| We went into several shops, looking for some souvenier-type items.
| Prices were on the bottom, as was the country-of-origin stickers.
| No point in buying a souvenier of France if it was made in China,
| y'know? So, the 3 or 4 of us were trying to pick out something to
| buy, not being loud or disruptive, just _shopping_. Apparently
| looking at prices and countries of origin is astonishingly rude in
| France, because the shop owner asked us to stop touching the
| merchandise. This wasn't crystal glass or anything even vaguely
| breakable, it was just your usual touristy-crap stuff. We decided
| to shop elsewhere, and then get a bite to eat.
|
| So, we found a restaurant with the menu posted outside, which
| matched
| our price range (spendy but not obscenely so). As we're walking
| in, an American couple was coming out, handed us a half-bottle of
| wine and half of a loaf of bread, and said "Here, you'll need
| these". Took an hour
| and a half before we were _acknowledged_ by the wait staff.
|
| Maybe that's some cultural thing, but I kind of expect to be, you
| know, acknowledged and seated when there are visibly open tables.

You make me glad I wasn't along. It really does sound as if the
national stress level was high. I can't remember what was going on
then. I dimly recall reports about transport strikes and farmers
dumping produce on the roads (something to do with the politics of
subsidies, I think) but can't remember when either of these took
place...

| The taxis - well, I don't have time to describe that craziness.

I never rode a taxi in a metro area. I walked nearly everywhere I went
in town (I was afraid of missing something - anything - along the
way). I have an arthritic hip that gets pretty sore but it was worth
every step. B'sides, the young ladies don't smile back if I smile and
nod from a taxi...

If the French taxis bother you, try riding a taxi almost anywhere in
the middle east. In at least Saudi Arabia and Lebanon, whoever honked
first when approaching an intersection had the right of way. Even
Kama^H^H^H^HJapanese taxis seem tame after that. :-)

|| I've never cared much for major metroplexes. I appreciate what they
|| have to offer; and recognize that those offerings are only possible
|| because of their size and confluence of influences - but there have
|| only ever been two that I've been able to really like: Copenhagen
|| and Philadelphia.
|
| Never been to Philly, but yes, Kobenhavn is great, I also liked
| Oslo and London rather a lot.

I guess I'm a country mouse at heart (actually more of a desert rat -
I did a lot of my growing up on the Nefud). I like places where people
feel that they can slow down when they choose. London is one of the
Great Cities of the World - but it's not where I'd go to relax. I've
never been to Norway or Sweden; but think I could enjoy both.

Philly is somehow a major metro that never got far from family
business. You can actually walk into a lot (perhaps even a majority)
of its stores and be greeted by the owner, ask questions and get
knowledgable, straight answers, and dicker over prices. If you're
trying to get a business off the ground, everybody has an uncle who
can get whatever you need cheaper. I'm addicted to Philly cheese
steaks, gyros, and big soft pretzels with mustard. It's the most "in
your face" city I've ever visited; but never found a person too busy
to give directions or solve a problem. I worked on a project there for
about a year and enjoyed the city and its people immensely.

|| I guess I should add that I'm /not/ a good tourist. I burned out on
|| cathedrals and castles and relics of the distant past a half
|| century ago.
|
| Ah, for me that's still fun. Best art for centuries was done for
| the churches and kings.

That's true. Somewhere along the line I started thinking about the /by
whom/ and /at what cost/ aspects and much of the shine started to come
off. About the same time I began shifting my interest from the glories
of /what was/ to the strengths and uniquenesses of the decendents of
the those people and the problems they're solving in the current age.

|| But I'm much more interested in /people/ and how the way people in
|| one place see the world differently than people in other places -
|| and I'm interested in /why/ those differences exist. My visit to
|| France was to satisfy curiosity about its people and to discover
|| anything at all that might help me to broaden my horizons a bit.
|
| What was your impression of the people?

They're like people everywhere in every major way. I found them warm
and hospitable and open to social interaction with a non-threatening
stranger. Many were curious and inquisitive, wanted to know this
American's reactions to almost anything, and were completely willing
to fill me in on anything I could find the vocabulary to ask about.
Just like Americans (and everyone else) they like to have their
accomplishments recognized - and they seemed delighted when I admired
some, to them, fairly mundane (and frequently geeky) things that I'd
never seen in the US.

The 9-11 attacks seemed to have hit them hard. They were worried about
us - and they were worried that similar attacks might be directed at
them (there was a lot of concern about the Louvre and the Eiffel
Tower). French TV was full of images from New York for weeks.

There's an important aspect to the French that I could identify - but
am not sure that I know how to verbalize in any way other than by
saying that they seem to love to dance. Throughout my entire trip I
felt as if I was scrambling to learn the steps. Social interaction is
one such dance. Even buying groceries is a dance. Knowing the steps is
essential; but timing and fluidity are important to execution. The
French seem to have an expectation that a civilized person /can/
dance.

Short story to illustrate:

I stopped in a sandwich shop in Paris. It was a squeeky clean place
with little round aluminum tables and chairs outside on the sidewalk.
I walked up to the counter and was greeted by a twenty-something lass
wearing a sunny smile. I smiled back in appreciation of her smile and
in a way that - if it communicated anything I was thinking - said "You
make me wish I were young" while my monotone bass did its best to
return "Bonjour mademoiselle" with some degree of musicality. Her
smile changed just enough to become impish and her eyes widened just a
bit, as if to say "Why thanks for asking - I'd love to dance." And
dance we did, all the way through the ever so careful construction of
a ham and cheese sandwich with her selection of mustard (because I'm
pretty much vocabulary-challenged when it comes to types of mustard).
It was an absolutely unforgettable experience and I felt like an oaf
with two left feet who'd managed a star performance largely due to the
natural grace of an extraordinary partner. When she handed the neatly
wrapped sandwich over the counter, I couldn't help but make a small
bow as I thanked her - much less for the sandwich than for the dance.
Her response was a pleased-looking smile and a slow nod. It wasn't a
"foot dance", there was no music, and the only touching was in the
moment the sandwich moved from her hand to mine. It was all body
language from the shoulders up. But it /was/ a dance and a most
enjoyable, if brief, flirtation. Sadly, I can't imagine it taking
place in the States.

There seems to be an element of dance in almost every interaction.
I'll guess that it's a cultural feature, but that's just a guess. I
really don't know. Manners is part of the dance. Vehicular traffic is
a sort of "dance". Certain steps seem to be rigidly defined - others
seem to be context-driven and some seem to be modifiable by mutual
whimsey. It'd be worth a return trip just to experiment and learn
more.

|| I visited in September and October and it didn't smell awful. It
|| smelled better than Chicago when I was last in the Windy City.
|| Perhaps time of year or prevailing wind make a difference; and
|| perhaps I was just lucky.
|
| (thinks) I was to Paris in July or August. I remember the odor of
| urine and dog **** was overpowering. Beautiful buildings, though.

It must be either temperature-related or a solved problem. I never
noticed either - and I'm sure I would have.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Morris, you have summed up exactly how I feel when I travel to Europe.
Particularly to France.

Thanks.

John Emmons

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
news

Morris Dovey wrote:
a concerto...

Thanks Morris. Your poem sums up the experiences that Maggy and I have
had in Paris, provincial towns, and wherever in driving across France.
We have always found that approaching a local with a smile and a
positive attitude will work wonders.
mahalo,
jo4hn

Doug Miller wrote:
In article .com, wrote:

Nor really. Clinton (probably) committed a crime while hiding
a non-crime from everyone including his own lawyers. None of
his people (aside from Lewinsky) were involved in an offense.
One guy broke the law to protect himself and didn't (much) get
away with it.

Not correct. At least not if by "a non-crime" you're referring to the blow
job. *Any* sexual contact between a supervisory federal employee and a
subordinate is a violation of federal sexual harrassment law, without regard
to whether the act is consensual or not.

ISTR that was only binding on civil servants, not on elected
officials. Further, is it a crime, a tort, or an infraction?
Maybe you can find the statute or regulation?

--

FF

On 25 Jul 2005 19:40:18 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:12:26 -0700, Fly-by-Night CC wrote:
In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

Yes, sometimes things get ****ed up so bad that they can't be fixed by
an incompetant military strategy. I don't consider Johnson to be an
example of a great strategist, do you?

Gee, I thought Nixon entered office in '69... that left almost 5 years
for a Republican president to straighten it out with his brilliant
military strategy.

So, if a democrat takes over the presidency next time, you're saying
that no matter what W ****s up in Iraq, the democrat can fix?

I don't think anyone is going to be "fixing" Iraq anytime soon. We
should have left it the hell alone in the first place.

In article .com, wrote:


Doug Miller wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

Nor really. Clinton (probably) committed a crime while hiding
a non-crime from everyone including his own lawyers. None of
his people (aside from Lewinsky) were involved in an offense.
One guy broke the law to protect himself and didn't (much) get
away with it.

Not correct. At least not if by "a non-crime" you're referring to the blow
job. *Any* sexual contact between a supervisory federal employee and a
subordinate is a violation of federal sexual harrassment law, without regard
to whether the act is consensual or not.

ISTR that was only binding on civil servants, not on elected
officials.

Not according to the people who presented the seminar that we were all forced
to attend, some years back when I was a civilian employee of the Navy...

Further, is it a crime, a tort, or an infraction?

Crime.

Maybe you can find the statute or regulation?

I'll see what I can do.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:16:01 -0500, Morris Dovey wrote:
Dave Hinz (in ) said:

| It's not just speaking French; you need to speak the _right_ French.
| First time I was there, was Paris in 1986 or so. Went with a
| French-speaking family from Belgium. Alas, they spoke the 'wrong
| French'. But, it wasn't just our group that was getting the
| treatment; the French were being rude to each other as well.

Perhaps "wrong" French - but I hope to tell you that it doesn't get
much "wronger" than mine. :-)

It was gramattically correct I'm sure, as it was their native language,
but it was Belgian, rather than Paresian, French. I'm told that somehow
this matters.

Sounds like you arrived right at the end of a hectic tourist season -
and it sounds as if there might have been a lot of stress going
around.

Well, if stress towards tourists is to be expected, than the absence of
this tourist is likewise to be expected.

The rural French are very much like rural Iowans. They're hard-working
and deliberate - not inclined to be in more hurry than necessary - and
were universally willing to pause to give directions and tell a bit
about their town.

Well, sure, rural folks are much the same everywhere I've met them.
But the difference in the cities was profound. London, Newcastle, or
any other city I went to in England, no problems. Pull out a map and
you're approached with offers of help, that sort of thing.

| Maybe that's some cultural thing, but I kind of expect to be, you
| know, acknowledged and seated when there are visibly open tables.

You make me glad I wasn't along. It really does sound as if the
national stress level was high. I can't remember what was going on
then. I dimly recall reports about transport strikes and farmers
dumping produce on the roads (something to do with the politics of
subsidies, I think) but can't remember when either of these took
place...

I don't know, but I interpreted both of those situations as overt
rudeness.

| The taxis - well, I don't have time to describe that craziness.

I never rode a taxi in a metro area. I walked nearly everywhere I went
in town (I was afraid of missing something - anything - along the
way).

The drivers seemed to aim for the expensive cars to get over a lane. I
finally asked one, and his response was that of course, that's the only
way to do it. Yikes.

If the French taxis bother you, try riding a taxi almost anywhere in
the middle east. In at least Saudi Arabia and Lebanon, whoever honked
first when approaching an intersection had the right of way. Even
Kama^H^H^H^HJapanese taxis seem tame after that. :-)

I have a list of parts of the world I'd like to travel to, and the
middle east isn't on it. I narrowly avoided being sent to Haifa when I
worked for G.E., because I was late to a meeting and nobody there knew
if I had a valid passport or not. They sent someone else. I was not
sad.

| Never been to Philly, but yes, Kobenhavn is great, I also liked
| Oslo and London rather a lot.

I guess I'm a country mouse at heart (actually more of a desert rat -
I did a lot of my growing up on the Nefud). I like places where people
feel that they can slow down when they choose. London is one of the
Great Cities of the World - but it's not where I'd go to relax. I've
never been to Norway or Sweden; but think I could enjoy both.

I was there in November, it was starting to get cold and snowy. People
were apologizing for the weather - a response of "That's OK, I've been
away from home for 3 months and this reminds me of home" worked well.

Philly is somehow a major metro that never got far from family
business. You can actually walk into a lot (perhaps even a majority)
of its stores and be greeted by the owner, ask questions and get
knowledgable, straight answers, and dicker over prices. If you're
trying to get a business off the ground, everybody has an uncle who
can get whatever you need cheaper. I'm addicted to Philly cheese
steaks, gyros, and big soft pretzels with mustard. It's the most "in
your face" city I've ever visited; but never found a person too busy
to give directions or solve a problem. I worked on a project there for
about a year and enjoyed the city and its people immensely.

So a training class there would be a good choice. I'll remember that,
thanks.

| Ah, for me that's still fun. Best art for centuries was done for
| the churches and kings.

That's true. Somewhere along the line I started thinking about the /by
whom/ and /at what cost/ aspects and much of the shine started to come
off.

Makes sense.

| What was your impression of the people?

They're like people everywhere in every major way. I found them warm
and hospitable and open to social interaction with a non-threatening
stranger. Many were curious and inquisitive, wanted to know this
American's reactions to almost anything, and were completely willing
to fill me in on anything I could find the vocabulary to ask about.

OK, maybe one more trip, if I run out of places I haven't been to.

The 9-11 attacks seemed to have hit them hard. They were worried about
us - and they were worried that similar attacks might be directed at
them (there was a lot of concern about the Louvre and the Eiffel
Tower). French TV was full of images from New York for weeks.

I wonder what it's like today...

Short story to illustrate:

I stopped in a sandwich shop in Paris. It was a squeeky clean place
with little round aluminum tables and chairs outside on the sidewalk.

(snip lyrical description of a sandwich)

Her response was a pleased-looking smile and a slow nod. It wasn't a
"foot dance", there was no music, and the only touching was in the
moment the sandwich moved from her hand to mine. It was all body
language from the shoulders up. But it /was/ a dance and a most
enjoyable, if brief, flirtation. Sadly, I can't imagine it taking
place in the States.

I think you're a remarkable person to have perceived the situation as
you did. You've definately got a gift.

| (thinks) I was to Paris in July or August. I remember the odor of
| urine and dog **** was overpowering. Beautiful buildings, though.

It must be either temperature-related or a solved problem. I never
noticed either - and I'm sure I would have.

Maybe one more trip...

Dave Hinz (in ) said:

| Maybe one more trip...

My suggestion would be to first visit the places you haven't already
been. Every place adds to understanding the places that follow. A lot
of the affinity for particular places would seem to have more to do
with the personality of the visitor than with the place itself. We
don't all /have/ to like the same places and things.

The bit about the taxis aiming for the expensive cars made me grin. I
worked in New Jersey for a time just after I'd bought a brand new
Volvo P1800E. It wasn't terribly expensive, but it /was/ pretty. I
found myself nearly unable to navigate any of the traffic circles
during rush hour until one trip home I left the P1800 and returned to
NJ in a nasty old beater C20 (large pickup truck with lots of rust).
Traffic circles became non-problems and the other drivers couldn't
seem to give me enough room. It happens in the USA, too.

| I wonder what it's like today...

Dunno. Probably not as relaxed as when I visited. They've got a lot of
issues a-cooking and I suspect that relations with the US
administration isn't making anything easier for them. They also have a
fair number of internal issues that I would expect to raise the
general discomfort level. This might be a wizard time for us to be
supportive - but I won't hold my breath waiting for it to happen - our
national leaders' seem unable to "play well with others".

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:01:40 -0500, Morris Dovey wrote:
Dave Hinz (in ) said:

| Maybe one more trip...

My suggestion would be to first visit the places you haven't already
been. Every place adds to understanding the places that follow.

That's the plan. Haven't spent enough time in Finland yet, would really
like to see St. Petersburg as well. Maybe do the loop around the Baltic
as my next trip.

The bit about the taxis aiming for the expensive cars made me grin. I
worked in New Jersey for a time just after I'd bought a brand new
Volvo P1800E. It wasn't terribly expensive, but it /was/ pretty. I
found myself nearly unable to navigate any of the traffic circles
during rush hour until one trip home I left the P1800 and returned to
NJ in a nasty old beater C20 (large pickup truck with lots of rust).
Traffic circles became non-problems and the other drivers couldn't
seem to give me enough room. It happens in the USA, too.

This was, in fact, in traffic circles in/near Calais as well. It was a
jarring contrast to the exceptionally well-behaved drivers in English
roundabouts.

I've got a 650-year family reunion to go to in Norway in 2008, maybe
that'd be a good starting place for a baltic trip.

Dave Hinz

Dave Hinz wrote:

....
I've got a 650-year family reunion to go to in Norway in 2008, maybe
that'd be a good starting place for a baltic trip.

How many are there from the previous one, Dave?

Interesting subthread...enjoying lurking...

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:59:09 -0500, Duane Bozarth wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

...
I've got a 650-year family reunion to go to in Norway in 2008, maybe
that'd be a good starting place for a baltic trip.

How many are there from the previous one, Dave?

Last one I know of was to 600th, so that'd leave the grandma who was a
small girl then.

Interesting subthread...enjoying lurking...

It helps when the farm has been in the same family since 1358...and the
land sale record is even online:
http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middel...l?b=2592&s=240

"3 men of the King's Authority, at (the event of) Harald of Lunde and
his wife Ingegorg selling to Gudbrand Thordsson, 3 units of land called
Tokestad at Forberg (in the parish of Ringsaker). (document location
and number), dated 29 June 1358.

The next section is middle-norse which an Icelandic friend of mine was
able to read as if she was reading a newspaper - their language has
stayed that pure over the centuries.

In the basement of the main house at this farm, is an oak beam that has
been dendochronologically dated to the 10th century, and the notches
show that it was used in a structure previous to the current one which
dates to the 1300s. Even 700 years ago people were re-using timbers.

Dave Hinz

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:59:09 -0500, Duane Bozarth
wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

...
I've got a 650-year family reunion to go to in Norway in 2008, maybe
that'd be a good starting place for a baltic trip.

How many are there from the previous one, Dave?

Last one I know of was to 600th, so that'd leave the grandma who was a
small girl then.

Interesting subthread...enjoying lurking...

It helps when the farm has been in the same family since 1358...and the
land sale record is even online:
http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middel...l?b=2592&s=240

"3 men of the King's Authority, at (the event of) Harald of Lunde and
his wife Ingegorg selling to Gudbrand Thordsson, 3 units of land called
Tokestad at Forberg (in the parish of Ringsaker). (document location
and number), dated 29 June 1358.

The next section is middle-norse which an Icelandic friend of mine was
able to read as if she was reading a newspaper - their language has
stayed that pure over the centuries.

In the basement of the main house at this farm, is an oak beam that has
been dendochronologically dated to the 10th century, and the notches
show that it was used in a structure previous to the current one which
dates to the 1300s. Even 700 years ago people were re-using timbers.

I may be a historical heretic here, but I just have to wonder.

How much would that beam fetch on e-bay?

And how easy would it be to work with hand or power tools?

How well would it finish?

Etc., etc.

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:15:19 -0400, Lee Michaels wrote:
"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...

In the basement of the main house at this farm, is an oak beam that has
been dendochronologically dated to the 10th century, and the notches
show that it was used in a structure previous to the current one which
dates to the 1300s. Even 700 years ago people were re-using timbers.

I may be a historical heretic here, but I just have to wonder.
How much would that beam fetch on e-bay?

Well, given that you'd have to disassemble a house to get at it, it's
probably not negotiable.

And how easy would it be to work with hand or power tools?

It's like knocking on a piece of solid iron. I would imagine the grain
is very tight, but couldn't see any.

How well would it finish?

It has a loverly nearly black, but visible grain and figure look. Easy
to replicate if you have 1000 years to do it, I suppose.

It's amazing that here, a house that's 150 years old is notable. There,
there are buildings that sat _empty_ for that long that have been put
back into use. After the black plague of (1660s some time), many of the
farms sat empty for a century or more - if you ever meet someone with
the last name of "Odegard", then at some point their ancestors took over
one of those farms whose name had been forgotten, so they were re-named
"old farm".

Next time I'm over there, I'll take some pictures of the woodwork and
paintings if the owners are OK with it. The site has been in use for a
_long_ time - they even have a stone axe that was found on-site...well,
the head, the handle is gone but was made of wood.

Dave Hinz wrote:

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:59:09 -0500, Duane Bozarth wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

...
I've got a 650-year family reunion to go to in Norway in 2008, maybe
that'd be a good starting place for a baltic trip.

How many are there from the previous one, Dave?

Last one I know of was to 600th, so that'd leave the grandma who was a
small girl then.

Interesting subthread...enjoying lurking...

It helps when the farm has been in the same family since 1358...and the
land sale record is even online:
http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middel...l?b=2592&s=240

"3 men of the King's Authority, at (the event of) Harald of Lunde and
his wife Ingegorg selling to Gudbrand Thordsson, 3 units of land called
Tokestad at Forberg (in the parish of Ringsaker). (document location
and number), dated 29 June 1358.

....

Now that is too cool! Makes our third-, fourth-, and (rarely)
fifth-generations look pretty puny doesn't it?

I recall as a young whelp right out of college leaving W KS for VA and
being nearly overwhelmed by the obvious age difference--of course, I
knew of Colonial Virginia, but it's something different when the place
one was raised wasn't settled until significantly after the Civil War...

Dave Hinz wrote:

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 13:15:19 -0400, Lee Michaels wrote:
"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...

In the basement of the main house at this farm, is an oak beam that has
been dendochronologically dated to the 10th century, and the notches
show that it was used in a structure previous to the current one which
dates to the 1300s. Even 700 years ago people were re-using timbers.


I may be a historical heretic here, but I just have to wonder.
How much would that beam fetch on e-bay?

Well, given that you'd have to disassemble a house to get at it, it's
probably not negotiable.

Yes, actually I suspect they were far more prone to reuse things then
than now since every beam had to be hand sawn and hewn. It wasn't so
easy to go get something from the sawmill...

And how easy would it be to work with hand or power tools?

It's like knocking on a piece of solid iron. I would imagine the grain
is very tight, but couldn't see any.

How well would it finish?

It has a loverly nearly black, but visible grain and figure look. Easy
to replicate if you have 1000 years to do it, I suppose.

Any idea what species it is? I would expect that it would be hard but
would probably work like a dream underneath the exterior...

It's amazing that here, a house that's 150 years old is notable. There,
there are buildings that sat _empty_ for that long that have been put
back into use. After the black plague of (1660s some time), many of the
farms sat empty for a century or more - if you ever meet someone with
the last name of "Odegard", then at some point their ancestors took over
one of those farms whose name had been forgotten, so they were re-named
"old farm".

I recall last time I was in Rochester, Kent, England that the "new"
touristy attraction was Dickens and the "new" castle was roughly 1100 as
opposed to the "old" castle ruins from which it was built. And, there
are places where the first Roman wall are still visible dating from
roughly AD70 or so, if I recall correctly.


Next time I'm over there, I'll take some pictures of the woodwork and
paintings if the owners are OK with it. The site has been in use for a
_long_ time - they even have a stone axe that was found on-site...well,
the head, the handle is gone but was made of wood.

That would be fabulous...

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:48:55 -0500, Duane Bozarth wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

It helps when the farm has been in the same family since 1358...and the
land sale record is even online:
http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middel...l?b=2592&s=240

"3 men of the King's Authority, at (the event of) Harald of Lunde and
his wife Ingegorg selling to Gudbrand Thordsson, 3 units of land called
Tokestad at Forberg (in the parish of Ringsaker). (document location
and number), dated 29 June 1358.

Now that is too cool! Makes our third-, fourth-, and (rarely)
fifth-generations look pretty puny doesn't it?

What's even more cool about it, is that the Norwegian government has not
only chased down all the available medieval documents, but they've
translated, transcribed, indexed, and put 'em online for free. I can't
find where my Hinz great-grandfather came from, but I can tell you what
happened 23 generations ago in Norway. Later my ancestor (Gudbrand)
bought the rest of Harald and Ingeborg's land from them; the sale
agreement is about 2 pages long, and runs along the lines of "We will
provide Harald and Ingeborg with living quarters in the small house,
(amount of food), and they may live there for as long as they want as
long as there is peace between the families". I also have his probate
document from 1397 where his holdings were divided between his two sons
- all online, all searchable. Amazing use of technology.

I recall as a young whelp right out of college leaving W KS for VA and
being nearly overwhelmed by the obvious age difference--of course, I
knew of Colonial Virginia, but it's something different when the place
one was raised wasn't settled until significantly after the Civil War...

In Wisconsin, a building from 1850 is about as old as it gets. Hell,
the "new castle" in Newcastle, England is from what, 1500?

Dave Hinz

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:54:09 -0500, Duane Bozarth wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

Well, given that you'd have to disassemble a house to get at it, it's
probably not negotiable.

Yes, actually I suspect they were far more prone to reuse things then
than now since every beam had to be hand sawn and hewn. It wasn't so
easy to go get something from the sawmill...

I would imagine it was from a tree right on the property. Hella big log
to move around without power.

It has a loverly nearly black, but visible grain and figure look. Easy
to replicate if you have 1000 years to do it, I suppose.

Any idea what species it is? I would expect that it would be hard but
would probably work like a dream underneath the exterior...

I'm not sure if they told me it was oak, or if I assumed it was oak.
Oak trees definately grow in that part of Norway; they have a "King's
Tree" on the property today that's proabably immensely old.

I recall last time I was in Rochester, Kent, England that the "new"
touristy attraction was Dickens and the "new" castle was roughly 1100 as
opposed to the "old" castle ruins from which it was built.

There ya go.

And, there
are places where the first Roman wall are still visible dating from
roughly AD70 or so, if I recall correctly.

Yes, quite a bit of that in London as well - big piece of it visible
over by the Tower of London, and St. Albans (20 minutes north by train)
has an excavated Roman town (Verilamium is close to the spelling).

Dave Hinz

in 1222883 20050727 215409 Duane Bozarth wrote:

I recall last time I was in Rochester, Kent, England that the "new"
touristy attraction was Dickens and the "new" castle was roughly 1100 as
opposed to the "old" castle ruins from which it was built. And, there
are places where the first Roman wall are still visible dating from
roughly AD70 or so, if I recall correctly.


A few miles from me is Portchester Castle. The outer walls are early Roman
and intact.

http://www.castleuk.net/castle_lists...stercastle.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~midgley/porchester.html

But stuff in Rome, like the Colisseum, puts it to shame!
Then there are the pyramids ...

(Dickens was born in Portsmouth, a stone's throw from Portchester.)

Bob Martin wrote:

in 1222883 20050727 215409 Duane Bozarth wrote:

I recall last time I was in Rochester, Kent, England that the "new"
touristy attraction was Dickens and the "new" castle was roughly 1100 as
opposed to the "old" castle ruins from which it was built. And, there
are places where the first Roman wall are still visible dating from
roughly AD70 or so, if I recall correctly.

A few miles from me is Portchester Castle. The outer walls are early Roman
and intact.

http://www.castleuk.net/castle_lists...stercastle.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~midgley/porchester.html

But stuff in Rome, like the Colisseum, puts it to shame!
Then there are the pyramids ...

Oh, certainly...only comment was that for a Yank, particularly one from
the middle which was the latest portion of the US to be settled so that
anything over about 150 is "ancient", the actual "hands-on" of even the
14-15th century stuff is pretty mind-blowing. I got a real kick from
the wooden beams, columns, and joinery in the old houses and
office/factory buildings such as the one Dave's described...

(Dickens was born in Portsmouth, a stone's throw from Portchester.)

And, similarly to Lincoln/Washington in the US, appears to have lived
and/or slept/written/lunched all over the whole of SE England...

Duane Bozarth wrote:
Bob Martin wrote:

in 1222883 20050727 215409 Duane Bozarth wrote:

I recall last time I was in Rochester, Kent, England that the "new"
touristy attraction was Dickens and the "new" castle was roughly 1100 as
opposed to the "old" castle ruins from which it was built. And, there
are places where the first Roman wall are still visible dating from
roughly AD70 or so, if I recall correctly.

A few miles from me is Portchester Castle. The outer walls are early Roman
and intact.

http://www.castleuk.net/castle_lists...stercastle.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~midgley/porchester.html

But stuff in Rome, like the Colisseum, puts it to shame!
Then there are the pyramids ...

Oh, certainly...only comment was that for a Yank, particularly one from
the middle which was the latest portion of the US to be settled so that
anything over about 150 is "ancient", the actual "hands-on" of even the
14-15th century stuff is pretty mind-blowing. I got a real kick from
the wooden beams, columns, and joinery in the old houses and
office/factory buildings such as the one Dave's described...

(Dickens was born in Portsmouth, a stone's throw from Portchester.)

And, similarly to Lincoln/Washington in the US, appears to have lived
and/or slept/written/lunched all over the whole of SE England...

I lived for a time in an old farmhouse in the Hudson River Valley in
NY. Built in 1839, and very interesting for a variety of things...this
was not ye olde fancy estate, but a house that was built after the barn
was done (barn was framed in pegged m&t, while the house was nailed
with cut nails). Low ceilings, single layer pine floorboards--many of
them 20+" wide.

But there are houses in the Stockade area of Schenectady, where I
worked back in the late '60s, that were put up in the latter 1600s,
IIRC. Lots of early 1700s structural work, too.

150 years is not old, even in the U.S. Go all the way to California and
some of those old Spanish missions are, in fact, fairly old.

Sure, we don't have 1000 year old castle ruins, but, then, my ancestors
back in that era, at least the ones that came from this side of the
Atlantic, used skin tents which do not last at all well. Not much left
but some handmade axes and knives. Without the wooden hafts they
started with.

But I'd surely like to view some of those very old farms. Not too
interested in the pyramids. Not exactly human scale, IMO, designed by
people with overweening egos to be built by slave labor. It does tend
to remind one of modern politics, in some ways. For those who doubt it,
check out early '60s and '70s photos of downtown Albany against those
of the current year Rockefeller's downtown.

Charlie Self wrote:
....
150 years is not old, even in the U.S. Go all the way to California and
some of those old Spanish missions are, in fact, fairly old.
....

You took my comment completely out of context, Charlie!

If you'll look, you'll note I mentioned explicitly Colonial Virginia
(which implies in my mind Jamestown as well) and that I simply was
speaking from the point of view of an individual raised in the Midwest
where any permanent structure (other than the Pueblos which are quite a
ways farther west, anyway) of 150 is about as old as it gets.
There was "no nothing" here until the railroad terminus reached here in
1888--it was prohibited from entering the Oklahoma Territory and
required to stop three miles this side of the border. The few small
town(s) that were bypassed immediately (as in almost overnight) became
"ghost towns" as the populace picked up and moved to the new terminus
and founded a new town...as one moves farther east, things get
progressively older, but the whole state didn't get much settlement at
all until relatively shortly before the Civil War...it was rushed into
Statehood in 1861 to bolster the Union side.

Of course, there's Santa Fe and all to the SW as well, but it's a "fur
trek" on down there, as well...

In article .com,
"Charlie Self" wrote:

Sure, we don't have 1000 year old castle ruins...

Take a look at Mesa Verde, Wupatki, etc. for our 1000 year old castles.
They may be "just" built into the rock, but they're quite elaborate in
design and thought - those folks knew much about living within the land.
--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
__________

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
Corporate States of America and to the
Republicans for which it stands, one nation,
under debt, easily divisible, with liberty
and justice for oil."
- Wiley Miller, Non Sequitur, 1/24/05

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:37:20 -0700, Fly-by-Night CC wrote:
In article .com,
"Charlie Self" wrote:

Sure, we don't have 1000 year old castle ruins...

Take a look at Mesa Verde, Wupatki, etc. for our 1000 year old castles.
They may be "just" built into the rock, but they're quite elaborate in
design and thought - those folks knew much about living within the land.

Good point. Those are some impressive structures - and the "footholes
cut into the cliff wall as a ladder" access makes me glad to have
running water.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
oups.com...
Not too
interested in the pyramids. Not exactly human scale, IMO, designed by
people with overweening egos to be built by slave labor. It does tend
to remind one of modern politics, in some ways. For those who doubt it,
check out early '60s and '70s photos of downtown Albany against those
of the current year Rockefeller's downtown.


Except, of course, the pyramids were _not_ built by slave labor, rather by
those who viewed them as others today view a cathedral - as a suitable place
for God. That's what the Pharaoh was, after all.
http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/070391.html

Key difference between building in the US and Europe is that the US had an
abundance of building material, and by the time local abundance was
lacking, the transportation revolution had made it possible to move
materials cheaply. In Europe, ages of cookfires had pretty well done for
timber, so they rebuilt out of the local rubble of the last war.

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:46:27 -0400, George George@least wrote:

Except, of course, the pyramids were _not_ built by slave labor,

Did the people building them know that? We don't even know what the
mechanism was for moving the blocks, and you claim we know the
motivation?

rather by
those who viewed them as others today view a cathedral - as a suitable place
for God. That's what the Pharaoh was, after all.
http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/070391.html

I don't see how a slave to a king-god is any different than a slave to a
dictator or whatever.

In article , Dave Hinz wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:46:27 -0400, George George@least wrote:

Except, of course, the pyramids were _not_ built by slave labor,

Did the people building them know that? We don't even know what the
mechanism was for moving the blocks, and you claim we know the
motivation?

I read an interesting theory a number of years ago. If memory serves, it was a
letter to the editor of Omni magazine, from a chemical engineer. Seems that
the guy went to Egypt on vacation with his wife, and while climbing the
pyramids he examined the blocks and concluded that it's _not_natural_stone_.
He says it's actually _concrete_ and they were cast in place.

Not so far-fetched as it might seem, either: somewhere around 400 AD, the
ancient Romans developed a concrete that would harden under water; when Rome
fell, the secret of making it was lost. Care to guess when it was
rediscovered? Not until 1789. And to this day, nobody knows for sure just
*what* Greek fire really was. It's easy to forget that the ancients were just
as smart as we are. Maybe smarter - they didn't have modern technology as a
crutch, and were forced to use their heads.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Dave Hinz wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:46:27 -0400, George George@least wrote:

Except, of course, the pyramids were _not_ built by slave labor,

Did the people building them know that? We don't even know what the
mechanism was for moving the blocks, and you claim we know the
motivation.

Evidence from the worker's city and worker's burial site provides
insight into who the workers were. In particular, it appears that
the food was provided by a large number of independant vendors
suggesting that the workers were paid a wage.

--

FF

Doug Miller wrote:

....
pyramids he examined the blocks and concluded that it's _not_natural_stone_.
He says it's actually _concrete_ and they were cast in place.

Not so far-fetched as it might seem, either: ...


Except there's geology that apparently traces the stones back to the
Giza plateau from whench they were quarried...

http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/070391.html

Doug Miller wrote:
...
I read an interesting theory a number of years ago. If memory serves, it was a
letter to the editor of Omni magazine, from a chemical engineer. Seems that
the guy went to Egypt on vacation with his wife, and while climbing the
pyramids he examined the blocks and concluded that it's _not_natural_stone_.
He says it's actually _concrete_ and they were cast in place.

Evidently he was not a geologist. The blocks in the Great Pyramid are
limestone that matches the stone remaining in the nearby quarry.


.. Care to guess when it was
rediscovered? Not until 1789. And to this day, nobody knows for sure just
*what* Greek fire really was. It's easy to forget that the ancients were just
as smart as we are. Maybe smarter - they didn't have modern technology as a
crutch, and were forced to use their heads.


Couldn't agree more.

What threw me for a loop was learning that the Incas worked platinum.
They didn't smelt it, they had native platinum from moutain streams.
But they worked it into objects. The Europeans couldn't do that until
the 19th century.

--

FF

wrote in message
oups.com...

Doug Miller wrote:
...
I read an interesting theory a number of years ago. If memory serves, it
was a
letter to the editor of Omni magazine, from a chemical engineer. Seems
that
the guy went to Egypt on vacation with his wife, and while climbing the
pyramids he examined the blocks and concluded that it's
_not_natural_stone_.
He says it's actually _concrete_ and they were cast in place.

Evidently he was not a geologist. The blocks in the Great Pyramid are
limestone that matches the stone remaining in the nearby quarry.

Well, technically, limestone *is* concrete (well, sort of). Just the
natural kind. ;-)

todd

On 28 Jul 2005 19:35:02 -0700, wrote:


Dave Hinz wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:46:27 -0400, George George@least wrote:

Except, of course, the pyramids were _not_ built by slave labor,

Did the people building them know that? We don't even know what the
mechanism was for moving the blocks, and you claim we know the
motivation.

Evidence from the worker's city and worker's burial site provides
insight into who the workers were. In particular, it appears that
the food was provided by a large number of independant vendors
suggesting that the workers were paid a wage.

It's been ages, but some time ago, I read that the Egyptians did not trust
slaves to build the pyramids, but that they used slaves for their mundane
projects in order to free the Egyptians to do the pyramid projects.




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:46:27 -0400, George George@least wrote:

Except, of course, the pyramids were _not_ built by slave labor,

Did the people building them know that? We don't even know what the
mechanism was for moving the blocks, and you claim we know the
motivation?

rather by
those who viewed them as others today view a cathedral - as a suitable
place
for God. That's what the Pharaoh was, after all.
http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/070391.html

I don't see how a slave to a king-god is any different than a slave to a
dictator or whatever.


Okay, Davey, believe what you like in defiance of reality.

Have a nice day.