Dave Hinz (in ) said:

| On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 23:00:02 -0500, Morris Dovey
| wrote:
|| Dave Hinz (in ) said:
||
||| Well, it's not like they don't continue to do staggeringly stupid
||| things over and over. And my knowledge is based on personal
||| experience with several trips to France; I'm not just repeating
||| what I've heard when I say that Paris is beautiful but smells
||| awful, for instance. I'm also not just parroting something I've
||| read or heard when I say that the French were astonishingly rude,
||| both in Paris and Calais.
|
|| I've heard this from other visitors; and admit that I felt a
|| certain trepidation about traveling to France. I'd been told to
|| expect a cold rudeness and that I could expect to be looked down
|| upon if I couldn't speak French well (I don't.)
|
| It's not just speaking French; you need to speak the _right_ French.
| First time I was there, was Paris in 1986 or so. Went with a
| French-speaking family from Belgium. Alas, they spoke the 'wrong
| French'. But, it wasn't just our group that was getting the
| treatment; the French were being rude to each other as well.

Perhaps "wrong" French - but I hope to tell you that it doesn't get
much "wronger" than mine. :-)

Sounds like you arrived right at the end of a hectic tourist season -
and it sounds as if there might have been a lot of stress going
around. I arrived after the normal tourist season (but while the
weather was still nice) so as to take advantage of off-season pricing.
People didn't seem rushed or stressed (other than over the attacks in
New York, DC, and Pennsylvania - and the bombing in Toulouse.)

When I arrived I took the Metro from the airport to one of the train
stations (can't remember which) and trained to Epinal. Stayed
overnight in Epinal to shed the jet lag, then taxi'd next morning to
pick up a rented barge on the Saonne. Ten days of traveling on one of
Nappy's canals at ~5 knots, with pauses at just about every town
(cycle from barge for exercise, then conversation, wine, cheese,
bread, occasional salad fixin's) and lock house (wine, local fruit,
and conversation) slowed the tempo of life to something reasonable.

The rural French are very much like rural Iowans. They're hard-working
and deliberate - not inclined to be in more hurry than necessary - and
were universally willing to pause to give directions and tell a bit
about their town.

Here in Iowa, farm homes are normally situated on the farm itself. The
French farmers live in villages and "commute" to their fields -
leaving wives and dependants free to operate small businesses out of
their homes and to have more opportunity to socialize than their
American counterparts. I suspect that their arrangement minimizes the
isolation that many of our farm families sometimes feel.

| Calais, in 1992-93. Was there during an extended stay in England.
| We went into several shops, looking for some souvenier-type items.
| Prices were on the bottom, as was the country-of-origin stickers.
| No point in buying a souvenier of France if it was made in China,
| y'know? So, the 3 or 4 of us were trying to pick out something to
| buy, not being loud or disruptive, just _shopping_. Apparently
| looking at prices and countries of origin is astonishingly rude in
| France, because the shop owner asked us to stop touching the
| merchandise. This wasn't crystal glass or anything even vaguely
| breakable, it was just your usual touristy-crap stuff. We decided
| to shop elsewhere, and then get a bite to eat.
|
| So, we found a restaurant with the menu posted outside, which
| matched
| our price range (spendy but not obscenely so). As we're walking
| in, an American couple was coming out, handed us a half-bottle of
| wine and half of a loaf of bread, and said "Here, you'll need
| these". Took an hour
| and a half before we were _acknowledged_ by the wait staff.
|
| Maybe that's some cultural thing, but I kind of expect to be, you
| know, acknowledged and seated when there are visibly open tables.

You make me glad I wasn't along. It really does sound as if the
national stress level was high. I can't remember what was going on
then. I dimly recall reports about transport strikes and farmers
dumping produce on the roads (something to do with the politics of
subsidies, I think) but can't remember when either of these took
place...

| The taxis - well, I don't have time to describe that craziness.

I never rode a taxi in a metro area. I walked nearly everywhere I went
in town (I was afraid of missing something - anything - along the
way). I have an arthritic hip that gets pretty sore but it was worth
every step. B'sides, the young ladies don't smile back if I smile and
nod from a taxi...

If the French taxis bother you, try riding a taxi almost anywhere in
the middle east. In at least Saudi Arabia and Lebanon, whoever honked
first when approaching an intersection had the right of way. Even
Kama^H^H^H^HJapanese taxis seem tame after that. :-)

|| I've never cared much for major metroplexes. I appreciate what they
|| have to offer; and recognize that those offerings are only possible
|| because of their size and confluence of influences - but there have
|| only ever been two that I've been able to really like: Copenhagen
|| and Philadelphia.
|
| Never been to Philly, but yes, Kobenhavn is great, I also liked
| Oslo and London rather a lot.

I guess I'm a country mouse at heart (actually more of a desert rat -
I did a lot of my growing up on the Nefud). I like places where people
feel that they can slow down when they choose. London is one of the
Great Cities of the World - but it's not where I'd go to relax. I've
never been to Norway or Sweden; but think I could enjoy both.

Philly is somehow a major metro that never got far from family
business. You can actually walk into a lot (perhaps even a majority)
of its stores and be greeted by the owner, ask questions and get
knowledgable, straight answers, and dicker over prices. If you're
trying to get a business off the ground, everybody has an uncle who
can get whatever you need cheaper. I'm addicted to Philly cheese
steaks, gyros, and big soft pretzels with mustard. It's the most "in
your face" city I've ever visited; but never found a person too busy
to give directions or solve a problem. I worked on a project there for
about a year and enjoyed the city and its people immensely.

|| I guess I should add that I'm /not/ a good tourist. I burned out on
|| cathedrals and castles and relics of the distant past a half
|| century ago.
|
| Ah, for me that's still fun. Best art for centuries was done for
| the churches and kings.

That's true. Somewhere along the line I started thinking about the /by
whom/ and /at what cost/ aspects and much of the shine started to come
off. About the same time I began shifting my interest from the glories
of /what was/ to the strengths and uniquenesses of the decendents of
the those people and the problems they're solving in the current age.

|| But I'm much more interested in /people/ and how the way people in
|| one place see the world differently than people in other places -
|| and I'm interested in /why/ those differences exist. My visit to
|| France was to satisfy curiosity about its people and to discover
|| anything at all that might help me to broaden my horizons a bit.
|
| What was your impression of the people?

They're like people everywhere in every major way. I found them warm
and hospitable and open to social interaction with a non-threatening
stranger. Many were curious and inquisitive, wanted to know this
American's reactions to almost anything, and were completely willing
to fill me in on anything I could find the vocabulary to ask about.
Just like Americans (and everyone else) they like to have their
accomplishments recognized - and they seemed delighted when I admired
some, to them, fairly mundane (and frequently geeky) things that I'd
never seen in the US.

The 9-11 attacks seemed to have hit them hard. They were worried about
us - and they were worried that similar attacks might be directed at
them (there was a lot of concern about the Louvre and the Eiffel
Tower). French TV was full of images from New York for weeks.

There's an important aspect to the French that I could identify - but
am not sure that I know how to verbalize in any way other than by
saying that they seem to love to dance. Throughout my entire trip I
felt as if I was scrambling to learn the steps. Social interaction is
one such dance. Even buying groceries is a dance. Knowing the steps is
essential; but timing and fluidity are important to execution. The
French seem to have an expectation that a civilized person /can/
dance.

Short story to illustrate:

I stopped in a sandwich shop in Paris. It was a squeeky clean place
with little round aluminum tables and chairs outside on the sidewalk.
I walked up to the counter and was greeted by a twenty-something lass
wearing a sunny smile. I smiled back in appreciation of her smile and
in a way that - if it communicated anything I was thinking - said "You
make me wish I were young" while my monotone bass did its best to
return "Bonjour mademoiselle" with some degree of musicality. Her
smile changed just enough to become impish and her eyes widened just a
bit, as if to say "Why thanks for asking - I'd love to dance." And
dance we did, all the way through the ever so careful construction of
a ham and cheese sandwich with her selection of mustard (because I'm
pretty much vocabulary-challenged when it comes to types of mustard).
It was an absolutely unforgettable experience and I felt like an oaf
with two left feet who'd managed a star performance largely due to the
natural grace of an extraordinary partner. When she handed the neatly
wrapped sandwich over the counter, I couldn't help but make a small
bow as I thanked her - much less for the sandwich than for the dance.
Her response was a pleased-looking smile and a slow nod. It wasn't a
"foot dance", there was no music, and the only touching was in the
moment the sandwich moved from her hand to mine. It was all body
language from the shoulders up. But it /was/ a dance and a most
enjoyable, if brief, flirtation. Sadly, I can't imagine it taking
place in the States.

There seems to be an element of dance in almost every interaction.
I'll guess that it's a cultural feature, but that's just a guess. I
really don't know. Manners is part of the dance. Vehicular traffic is
a sort of "dance". Certain steps seem to be rigidly defined - others
seem to be context-driven and some seem to be modifiable by mutual
whimsey. It'd be worth a return trip just to experiment and learn
more.

|| I visited in September and October and it didn't smell awful. It
|| smelled better than Chicago when I was last in the Windy City.
|| Perhaps time of year or prevailing wind make a difference; and
|| perhaps I was just lucky.
|
| (thinks) I was to Paris in July or August. I remember the odor of
| urine and dog **** was overpowering. Beautiful buildings, though.

It must be either temperature-related or a solved problem. I never
noticed either - and I'm sure I would have.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html