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Woodturning (rec.crafts.woodturning) To discuss tools, techniques, styles, materials, shows and competitions, education and educational materials related to woodturning. All skill levels are welcome, from art turners to production turners, beginners to masters. |
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#1
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Stubbys are back
If I could I'd like to make a little commercial announcement...
Our preliminary web site is up and we are ready to go. If you are in the market for a really great lathe please visit us: http://www.stubbylatheusa.com. Bill |
#2
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I've only been turning for 8 or 9 months so I'm no expert. But I had
the chance to take a class from Christian Burchard in Ashland, OR and we used Stubby lathes. I've been lusting for one ever since. It's like a Rolls Royce after using my Delta. Unfortunately, they are way out of my class for a retired, purely recreational turner. But if I ever inherit a few bucks, I'll be contacting you! Earl |
#3
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Thanks for your note. The few that have been resold have sold for nearly their new value.
So, since interest rates are really low and that money in the bank isn't really buying you anything, maybe you can figure that having the machine would just be a loan to you -- one which would keep you happy. And, if that logic doesn't fly in your house... Bill In article , says... I've only been turning for 8 or 9 months so I'm no expert. But I had the chance to take a class from Christian Burchard in Ashland, OR and we used Stubby lathes. I've been lusting for one ever since. It's like a Rolls Royce after using my Delta. Unfortunately, they are way out of my class for a retired, purely recreational turner. But if I ever inherit a few bucks, I'll be contacting you! Earl |
#4
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"Earl" wrote in message om... I've only been turning for 8 or 9 months so I'm no expert. But I had the chance to take a class from Christian Burchard in Ashland, OR and we used Stubby lathes. I've been lusting for one ever since. It's like a Rolls Royce after using my Delta. Unfortunately, they are way out of my class for a retired, purely recreational turner. But if I ever inherit a few bucks, I'll be contacting you! Earl Of course only you know what your budget will tolerate but if it's just a matter of thinking it's too expensive for a recreational turner consider what some people spend for motorcycles, snowmobiles, golf club membership fees, etc. The lathe will have, as mentioned, considerable resale value and it's annual operating cost is very low compared to the above. I am conveniently neglecting buying tools and gizmos! Billh |
#5
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"Bill Rubenstein" wrote: (clip) So, since interest rates are really low and that money in the bank isn't really buying you anything, maybe you can figure that having the machine would just be a loan to you -- one which would keep you happy. (clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The money you save while you are standing at the lathe for hours, instead of driving to the store buying things you don't need, is INTEREST, and it's tax free. |
#6
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Leo, I've saved myself into bankruptcy before, but I made it up by
excesive spending. For aye, Arch Fortiter, http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
#7
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A Stubby is a lot less than what a good bass boat, motor and trailer costs.
Not to mention a nice $30,000 truck to pull it with. If you have a bad day on the water, you have to go buy a bunch of smelly fish from the fish market and lie about it to save face. With at least $50,000 tied up in equipment, how are you ever gonna tell your sweetie you didn't catch a damn thing? Instead of your wife worrying about your being out on some godforsaken lake in all kinds of weather, with a Stubby, you're right out in your own garage or basement all day long. Talk about peace of mind! And, don't forget the investment angle. And no lying! Barry PS I sent in my deposit for a Stubby just this week. "billh" wrote in message . .. "Earl" wrote in message om... I've only been turning for 8 or 9 months so I'm no expert. But I had the chance to take a class from Christian Burchard in Ashland, OR and we used Stubby lathes. I've been lusting for one ever since. It's like a Rolls Royce after using my Delta. Unfortunately, they are way out of my class for a retired, purely recreational turner. But if I ever inherit a few bucks, I'll be contacting you! Earl Of course only you know what your budget will tolerate but if it's just a matter of thinking it's too expensive for a recreational turner consider what some people spend for motorcycles, snowmobiles, golf club membership fees, etc. The lathe will have, as mentioned, considerable resale value and it's annual operating cost is very low compared to the above. I am conveniently neglecting buying tools and gizmos! Billh |
#8
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"Barry N. Turner" wrote: (clip) Instead of your wife worrying about your being out on some godforsaken lake in all kinds of weather, with a Stubby, you're right out in your own garage or basement all day long. Talk about peace of mind! (clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Think about all those weird problem marriages that have been aired on the Dr. Phil Show. Not one Stubby owner. That has to mean something! |
#9
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I agree! The absence of Stubby owners from the Dr. Phil Show can't be just
a coincidence! Save your marriage, buy a Stubby! Barry "Leo Lichtman" wrote in message ... "Barry N. Turner" wrote: (clip) Instead of your wife worrying about your being out on some godforsaken lake in all kinds of weather, with a Stubby, you're right out in your own garage or basement all day long. Talk about peace of mind! (clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Think about all those weird problem marriages that have been aired on the Dr. Phil Show. Not one Stubby owner. That has to mean something! |
#10
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the stubby does have an advantage of requiring fewer add on gizmos than
many, it has a built in vacuum port, it can turn as big as you want inboard, so no need for outboard accessories, etc. Also, with a new distributor, it may be possible to purchase the lathe without the motor and electronics and supply that yourself if you are able - I don't know what the savings would be, but there would be some kind of reduction in your out of pocket cost. but, the really big savings is that you won't lust after another lathe, so you will save the cost of each of the intermediate lathes you buy and then resell. billn "billh" wrote in message . .. "Earl" wrote in message om... I've only been turning for 8 or 9 months so I'm no expert. But I had the chance to take a class from Christian Burchard in Ashland, OR and we used Stubby lathes. I've been lusting for one ever since. It's like a Rolls Royce after using my Delta. Unfortunately, they are way out of my class for a retired, purely recreational turner. But if I ever inherit a few bucks, I'll be contacting you! Earl Of course only you know what your budget will tolerate but if it's just a matter of thinking it's too expensive for a recreational turner consider what some people spend for motorcycles, snowmobiles, golf club membership fees, etc. The lathe will have, as mentioned, considerable resale value and it's annual operating cost is very low compared to the above. I am conveniently neglecting buying tools and gizmos! Billh |
#11
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Snip but, the really big savings is that you won't lust after another
lathe But isn't that part of the fun? I had a terrible craving for a Browning 22 Rifle, the little take-down model that looks like a toy. When I was about 16, it was an astounding $69.50! No way I could afford it. Bought a Remington for $39.95. About 30 years later, I finally got the little Browning.........I was almost 50 years old..........had to pay about $300 for it. (It now sells for almost $500) I have to say it just isn't as great as I thought it would be. Same way with my Rolex Submariner. Wanted one of those for 30+ years. Badly. Watched James Bond movies just to catch a glimpse of James' Rolex. My wife finally bought me one for my 51st birthday! Barry "william_b_noble" wrote in message ... the stubby does have an advantage of requiring fewer add on gizmos than many, it has a built in vacuum port, it can turn as big as you want inboard, so no need for outboard accessories, etc. Also, with a new distributor, it may be possible to purchase the lathe without the motor and electronics and supply that yourself if you are able - I don't know what the savings would be, but there would be some kind of reduction in your out of pocket cost. but, the really big savings is that you won't lust after another lathe, so you will save the cost of each of the intermediate lathes you buy and then resell. billn "billh" wrote in message . .. "Earl" wrote in message om... I've only been turning for 8 or 9 months so I'm no expert. But I had the chance to take a class from Christian Burchard in Ashland, OR and we used Stubby lathes. I've been lusting for one ever since. It's like a Rolls Royce after using my Delta. Unfortunately, they are way out of my class for a retired, purely recreational turner. But if I ever inherit a few bucks, I'll be contacting you! Earl Of course only you know what your budget will tolerate but if it's just a matter of thinking it's too expensive for a recreational turner consider what some people spend for motorcycles, snowmobiles, golf club membership fees, etc. The lathe will have, as mentioned, considerable resale value and it's annual operating cost is very low compared to the above. I am conveniently neglecting buying tools and gizmos! Billh |
#12
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So maybe I'll just print out this whole thread and conviently leave it
on the table for my wife to read... Now if we just hadn't bought a newer 5th wheel this summer! Earl |
#13
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Now wait just a Goldarned minute! godforsaken lake? I gatta tell you,
some of my best times with the Lord have been while sitting out on a lake, river, or ocean talking to him... Besides... some of his favorite helpers were fisherman. Sometimes I can even get my wife to tag along... if the crappy or bass are biting... She likes to go out in my bass boat. I can hardly even get her to walk through my shop... Hmmm maybe I need a Stubby? Naaah I don't think she would be anymore impressed with it than she is my other tools.... Big Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Leo Lichtman" wrote in message ... "Barry N. Turner" wrote: (clip) Instead of your wife worrying about your being out on some godforsaken lake in all kinds of weather, with a Stubby, you're right out in your own garage or basement all day long. Talk about peace of mind! (clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Think about all those weird problem marriages that have been aired on the Dr. Phil Show. Not one Stubby owner. That has to mean something! -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#14
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"mikes News" wrote: (clip) Naaah I don't think she would be anymore impressed with it than she is my other tools.... Big Mike ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well. Maybe you're not really "Big" Mike. |
#15
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I gatta hand it to ya.... I stepped into that one!
"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message ... "mikes News" wrote: (clip) Naaah I don't think she would be anymore impressed with it than she is my other tools.... Big Mike ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well. Maybe you're not really "Big" Mike. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#16
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well if you stepped in it, try not to drag it into the house.
"mikes News" wrote in message ... I gatta hand it to ya.... I stepped into that one! "Leo Lichtman" wrote in message ... "mikes News" wrote: (clip) Naaah I don't think she would be anymore impressed with it than she is my other tools.... Big Mike ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well. Maybe you're not really "Big" Mike. -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#17
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Oops! Poor choice of words on my part. No offense intended. Certainly God
has not forsaken any of our lakes, streams or forests. Just look at the beauty of wood. You're right about the dishing connection. Jesus did seem to have a soft spot for fishermen and water. Don't forget, his dad was a carpenter, too! Have fun turning and fishing! Barry "mikes News" wrote in message ... Now wait just a Goldarned minute! godforsaken lake? I gatta tell you, some of my best times with the Lord have been while sitting out on a lake, river, or ocean talking to him... Besides... some of his favorite helpers were fisherman. Sometimes I can even get my wife to tag along... if the crappy or bass are biting... She likes to go out in my bass boat. I can hardly even get her to walk through my shop... Hmmm maybe I need a Stubby? Naaah I don't think she would be anymore impressed with it than she is my other tools.... Big Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Leo Lichtman" wrote in message ... "Barry N. Turner" wrote: (clip) Instead of your wife worrying about your being out on some godforsaken lake in all kinds of weather, with a Stubby, you're right out in your own garage or basement all day long. Talk about peace of mind! (clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Think about all those weird problem marriages that have been aired on the Dr. Phil Show. Not one Stubby owner. That has to mean something! -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
#18
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Stubbys are back
$5,175 + S&H! For $825 more I got a 5 function
(10 TS -with riving knife, shaper that'll handle 7" diam. 1 1/4" bore shaper head, 12" 3 knives jointer. 12" planer, a horizontal boring/mortising head - with XYZ table AND a sliding table for the saw/shaper) 1100 lb combination machine with 3 TEFC German motors. Made in Belgium rather than Austria, it ain't pretty but it does all the basic jobs and then some pretty well. But I guess it's a Whatever Floats Your Boat thing. charlie b |
#19
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Stubbys are back
Charlie:
I guess that I must respond since I'm the importer of the Stubby lathes (www.stubbylatheusa.com). I'm not sure if you believe that the Stubby comes from Austria or not, but it doesn't. It comes from Australia. Anyway, the combination machine you refer to could be a very nice machine. But, you can't turn a 30" bowl or hollow form on it. In fact, you can't turn anything on it. The Stubby is expensive to build, expensive to import, and a major factor is that the US dollar is so poorly thought of on the international market. I know what my costs are and am doing everything to keep them down and to keep the selling price down. Build costs keep rising, though, and I've just returned from a trip to Australia where we sat down for several days and determined what we could do to keep selling prices stable. Let me give you an example of the kind of 'stuff' you run into in this business. The only way to get the machines here undamaged is to ship them in pretty substantial wooden crates. For years the crates were built out of low-value, air-dried lumber. Mid '05, the US government decided that the crates had to be built out of kiln-dried lumber so as to kill any bugs. That raised the price of the crates. This is a little retirement business for me and if I hadn't been successful in my earlier years, I couldn't afford to run this business -- my accountant thinks I'm crazy to be doing this. Maybe he is right. Anyway, if you have never turned on a Stubby and you'd like to see what it feels like, let me know and we can probably find someone close to you who has one. It may cost you $5175.00 + shipping (no handling), though. And, have you priced the Oneway offerings lately? If you do, be sure to add the stuff you need for big bowls and such. Bill Stubby Lathe USA, Inc. charlie b wrote: $5,175 + S&H! For $825 more I got a 5 function (10 TS -with riving knife, shaper that'll handle 7" diam. 1 1/4" bore shaper head, 12" 3 knives jointer. 12" planer, a horizontal boring/mortising head - with XYZ table AND a sliding table for the saw/shaper) 1100 lb combination machine with 3 TEFC German motors. Made in Belgium rather than Austria, it ain't pretty but it does all the basic jobs and then some pretty well. But I guess it's a Whatever Floats Your Boat thing. charlie b |
#20
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Stubbys are back
let me second Bill R's comments - I have a Stubby lathe, paid about 6
grand for it a few years ago (it's a 1000, so it's larger than what Bill R mostly sells), and it cost me more than my Logan metal lathe and my Sweedish 3,000 pound toolmaker's mill combined. but, I can't turn 44 inches between centers on the Logan lathe, nor on the Abene mill (though I suppose I could use those two tools to make a replacement for the Stubby if I would work for 5 cents per hour and had a huge pile of scrap metal to start with. If you have lots of space and lots of time, a huge old metal lathe can usually be had for less than scrap value - but you need the space for a huge machine, and the Stubby is very space efficient, in fact that's a key reason why I bought it - it also happens to work very well, the other key reason I bought it. I also agree that if we don't get our financial house in order, the dollar will continue to slide until we can't even afford to buy cheap chinese lathes from Harbor Freight. On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:25:46 GMT, Bill Rubenstein wrote: Charlie: I guess that I must respond since I'm the importer of the Stubby lathes (www.stubbylatheusa.com). I'm not sure if you believe that the Stubby comes from Austria or not, but it doesn't. It comes from Australia. Anyway, the combination machine you refer to could be a very nice machine. But, you can't turn a 30" bowl or hollow form on it. In fact, you can't turn anything on it. The Stubby is expensive to build, expensive to import, and a major factor is that the US dollar is so poorly thought of on the international market. I know what my costs are and am doing everything to keep them down and to keep the selling price down. Build costs keep rising, though, and I've just returned from a trip to Australia where we sat down for several days and determined what we could do to keep selling prices stable. Let me give you an example of the kind of 'stuff' you run into in this business. The only way to get the machines here undamaged is to ship them in pretty substantial wooden crates. For years the crates were built out of low-value, air-dried lumber. Mid '05, the US government decided that the crates had to be built out of kiln-dried lumber so as to kill any bugs. That raised the price of the crates. This is a little retirement business for me and if I hadn't been successful in my earlier years, I couldn't afford to run this business -- my accountant thinks I'm crazy to be doing this. Maybe he is right. Anyway, if you have never turned on a Stubby and you'd like to see what it feels like, let me know and we can probably find someone close to you who has one. It may cost you $5175.00 + shipping (no handling), though. And, have you priced the Oneway offerings lately? If you do, be sure to add the stuff you need for big bowls and such. Bill Stubby Lathe USA, Inc. charlie b wrote: $5,175 + S&H! For $825 more I got a 5 function (10 TS -with riving knife, shaper that'll handle 7" diam. 1 1/4" bore shaper head, 12" 3 knives jointer. 12" planer, a horizontal boring/mortising head - with XYZ table AND a sliding table for the saw/shaper) 1100 lb combination machine with 3 TEFC German motors. Made in Belgium rather than Austria, it ain't pretty but it does all the basic jobs and then some pretty well. But I guess it's a Whatever Floats Your Boat thing. charlie b Bill www.wbnoble.com to contact me, do not reply to this message, instead correct this address and use it will iam_ b_ No ble at msn daught com |
#21
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Stubbys are back
In article ,
Bill Rubenstein wrote: Anyway, the combination machine you refer to could be a very nice machine. But, you can't turn a 30" bowl or hollow form on it. In fact, you can't turn anything on it. Oh yeah? What about mounting the wood to a faceplate and then screwing that onto the spindle shaper. Kinda like the Verti-lathe (may George Devine rest in peace) only bigger. -- Owen Lowe Northwest Woodturners Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild ___ Tips fer Turnin': Place a sign, easily seen as you switch on your lathe, warning you to remove any and all rings from your fingers. Called degloving, extended hardware can grab your ring and rip it off your finger. A pic for the strong of stomach: www.itim.nsw.gov.au/go/objectid/2A3AC703-1321-1C29-70B067DC88E16BFC/index.cfm Besides, rings can easily mar the surface of a turning as you check for finished smoothness. |
#22
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Stubbys are back
I trust that you are joking? Also, I hope that you have a variable
speed drive on that shaper spindle. Even if you did, though, I suspect that the pulley ratios are such that the low rpm with torque which we need for big work wouldn't be available. Bill Owen Lowe wrote: In article , Bill Rubenstein wrote: Anyway, the combination machine you refer to could be a very nice machine. But, you can't turn a 30" bowl or hollow form on it. In fact, you can't turn anything on it. Oh yeah? What about mounting the wood to a faceplate and then screwing that onto the spindle shaper. Kinda like the Verti-lathe (may George Devine rest in peace) only bigger. |
#23
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Stubbys are back
In article ,
Bill Rubenstein wrote: I trust that you are joking? Yes, yes I was joking. BTW, on a similar note of attaching turnings to non-standard lathes: I had heard of folks using their car or truck drivelines to power a turning - attach the turning in some way to the wheel axle and then use the engine and transmission to obtain the rpms you need. Tho I've never turned a pen or pencil, I've tried most other turning techniques and projects. Thought I'd give the "Cheby-lathe" a try, so got a big chunk of Big Leaf Maple all mounted up to a homemade drum brake and bolted onto the lugs. All my tools close at hand. Had my wife in our Citation's driver's seat. Instructed her to put 'er in "D" and gently press the gas - which she did just as I asked. I got some shavings coming off but had a hell of a time keeping up with her as she made her way down the street. Actually... due to the direction of the rotating wood, I was in front of the turning next to side of the car. It quickly became apparent that I would need to run backwards while holding the gouge to wood. I tell you it got pretty exciting just making sure I was not run over let alone getting a good curly shaving - was one hell of a work out tho so my cardiologist would be pleased. -- Owen Lowe Northwest Woodturners Pacific Northwest Woodturning Guild ___ Tips fer Turnin': Place a sign, easily seen as you switch on your lathe, warning you to remove any and all rings from your fingers. Called degloving, extended hardware can grab your ring and rip it off your finger. A pic for the strong of stomach: www.itim.nsw.gov.au/go/objectid/2A3AC703-1321-1C29-70B067DC88E16BFC/index.cfm Besides, rings can easily mar the surface of a turning as you check for finished smoothness. |
#24
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Stubbys are back
Owen Lowe wrote:
In article , Bill Rubenstein wrote: I trust that you are joking? Yes, yes I was joking. BTW, on a similar note of attaching turnings to non-standard lathes: I had heard of folks using their car or truck drivelines to power a turning - attach the turning in some way to the wheel axle and then use the engine and transmission to obtain the rpms you need. Tho I've never turned a pen or pencil, I've tried most other turning techniques and projects. Thought I'd give the "Cheby-lathe" a try, so got a big chunk of Big Leaf Maple all mounted up to a homemade drum brake and bolted onto the lugs. All my tools close at hand. Had my wife in our Citation's driver's seat. Instructed her to put 'er in "D" and gently press the gas - which she did just as I asked. I got some shavings coming off but had a hell of a time keeping up with her as she made her way down the street. Actually... due to the direction of the rotating wood, I was in front of the turning next to side of the car. It quickly became apparent that I would need to run backwards while holding the gouge to wood. I tell you it got pretty exciting just making sure I was not run over let alone getting a good curly shaving - was one hell of a work out tho so my cardiologist would be pleased. LOL (do I *really* have to 'splain that one?) And for a finish? Friction Polish? |
#25
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Stubbys are back (they never left, quality never does)
Owen, I used Lori's car with front wheel drive to make a standard VS
lathe with a rotating headstock. I'm gonna put it on a car lift tomorrow and turn some big platters. Do you think Bill and his Stubbys hear our footsteps or wheels screeching? Naw! Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
#26
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Stubbys are back
"Owen Lowe" wrote in message news In article , I had heard of folks using their car or truck drivelines to power a turning - attach the turning in some way to the wheel axle and then use the engine and transmission to obtain the rpms you need. Yep, Art Charpentier, I believe, made some monster turnings with his Jeep axle. |
#27
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Stubbys are back
Lobby, why insult Owen? In My Humble Opinion, it's not a LOL. 'Lousy Old Lathe'. Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
#28
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Stubbys are back
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#29
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Stubbys are back (they never left, quality never does)
Arch:
I'll go back to serious for a moment... I knew a turner, a Mennonite in a conservative community in the north of Belize. They do not use electricity. So, he had rigged up a vw beetle engine and transmission to turn his lathe. It was a bit noisy, though. Also, I don't exactly understand why engines are ok and electricity is bad. This group also would not drive cars with rubber tires. In their saw mill, though, they had fitted steel wheels, no rubber, to their log movers which made it ok. The saws were electrically driven but they generated the electricity themselves with a huge Cat generator. Bill Arch wrote: Owen, I used Lori's car with front wheel drive to make a standard VS lathe with a rotating headstock. I'm gonna put it on a car lift tomorrow and turn some big platters. Do you think Bill and his Stubbys hear our footsteps or wheels screeching? Naw! Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
#31
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Stubbys are back (they never left, quality never does)
I think it has something to do with eschewing dependency on the outside
world. Electricity comes from a power plant..........gasoline power is generated on site. I don't have a clue why a gasoline generator couldn't be used, or why gasoline power is okay even though gasoline comes from big oil companies. Barry "Bill Rubenstein" wrote in message . com... Arch: I'll go back to serious for a moment... I knew a turner, a Mennonite in a conservative community in the north of Belize. They do not use electricity. So, he had rigged up a vw beetle engine and transmission to turn his lathe. It was a bit noisy, though. Also, I don't exactly understand why engines are ok and electricity is bad. This group also would not drive cars with rubber tires. In their saw mill, though, they had fitted steel wheels, no rubber, to their log movers which made it ok. The saws were electrically driven but they generated the electricity themselves with a huge Cat generator. Bill Arch wrote: Owen, I used Lori's car with front wheel drive to make a standard VS lathe with a rotating headstock. I'm gonna put it on a car lift tomorrow and turn some big platters. Do you think Bill and his Stubbys hear our footsteps or wheels screeching? Naw! Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings |
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