I picked up about 15ft of Holly at the weekend about 15in diameter, its
now split down the middle and in shorter lengths. I have applied
Endseal.

Any suggestion on handling would be appreciated, When first cut some of
the ends almost instantly went green, so i hope to preserve it as white
if i can .
--
John

On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:03:06 +0000, John wrote:

I picked up about 15ft of Holly at the weekend about 15in diameter, its
now split down the middle and in shorter lengths. I have applied
Endseal.

Any suggestion on handling would be appreciated, When first cut some of
the ends almost instantly went green, so i hope to preserve it as white
if i can .

Cut and sticker as fast as possible.
Remove discolored pieces to separate area ASAP, fungal transfer like
spalting.
Use citric acid - lemon juice to bleach.
Holly is extremely sensitive to iron stain, avoid iron and steel contact.
Wash hands before handling, pay attention when working the wood to avoid
hand residue transfer.

A few links supporting my experience with Holly.
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/
Holly_Staining_Fungus_or_Pigment.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=tXWTf-
UebDIC&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78&dq=woodturning+holly
+discolor&source=web&ots=oHWl54dtHO&sig=-
GwYW6kjkEN01Bmu0UJYN5_2LLg&hl=en#PPA78,M1

http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/page25.html

http://www.woodturns.com/articles/wood/holly.htm


I felled a 20ft high, 16in diameter tree affecting a neighbors fence last
year and got a reasonable yield. None of it was as white as I can
purchase but I use thin pieces for accents and with lemon bleaching it is
usable.

My supplier must be getting Northern grown Holly because I don't get as
drastic discolorations when working purchased vs. locally cut. (Or maybe
the store's isn't even Holly. I been sold the "wrong" wood many times
before. It can be difficult to determine species in small penblank or
turning block sizes.)

Be careful with the citric acid. It can bleach other woods and can
"bleed" into other woods when doing marquetry. Dry the bleached piece
thoroughly before glue-up next to contrasting (dark) porous woods.

For tool stain transfer issues I use mineral oil on metal tool surfaces.
This reduces/prevents rust and is easy to notice when it contacts your
hands vs. iron transfer which just makes your hands look dirty. When/if
your hands get oily, it reminds you to wash them before handling the
workpiece.

I plan on doing some tests adding dry citric acid to the finish before
applying. Citric acid is used regularly to neutralize and brighten
exterior decking after chemical cleaners are used which darken the wood.
It is also used in pulp and paper production as a whitener and
neutralizer.

If you can't "fix" the problem, turn it into an opportunity and spalt it.
Spalted Holly can be quite figurative, nearly burl-like vs. the more
"waterspot stained" look of spalted maple, etc..
http://www.milburnguitars.com/shollyrose1.html
http://www.milburnguitars.com/shollyrose2.html
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/te...alted_wood.pdf

One of many wood picture identification sites on the web:
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/person...pics/holly.htm

My purchased Holly is as white as the pen blanks in the link above,
although I noticed a few suppliers I've used in the past now present a
tan picture for Holly .

Just for fun.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworki....aspx?id=30406
http://www.chrysaliswoodworks.com/im...os/IMG0025.htm
http://www.marquetry.org/int_photos2.htm

And one of my favorite wood artists, self taught, started by selling
simple wood boxes at street fairs:
http://www.primaveraart.com/pages/po...ollection.html
http://www.hollyollivander.com/poshunleong/pgift.html
http://www.poshunleong.com/

In message , Joe
writes


Cut and sticker as fast as possible.
Remove discolored pieces to separate area ASAP, fungal transfer like
spalting.
Use citric acid - lemon juice to bleach.
Holly is extremely sensitive to iron stain, avoid iron and steel contact.
Wash hands before handling, pay attention when working the wood to avoid
hand residue transfer.

I felled a 20ft high, 16in diameter tree affecting a neighbors fence last
year and got a reasonable yield. None of it was as white as I can
purchase but I use thin pieces for accents and with lemon bleaching it is
usable.


Be careful with the citric acid. It can bleach other woods and can
"bleed" into other woods when doing marquetry. Dry the bleached piece
thoroughly before glue-up next to contrasting (dark) porous woods.

For tool stain transfer issues I use mineral oil on metal tool surfaces.
This reduces/prevents rust and is easy to notice when it contacts your
hands vs. iron transfer which just makes your hands look dirty. When/if
your hands get oily, it reminds you to wash them before handling the
workpiece.

Hi Joe, thanks for the reply

What a lot of useful information. Which has posed some more food for
thought. I had already picked up on Holly taking iron stain from the
hands, but that begged the question as to mount it which you have
adequately anticipated.

Its interesting you use citric acid for bleaching the wood, I remember I
used to use it for cleaning up old low value copper/bronze coins. But
once I left them in a little too long and it ate through the coins. So
would be interested in any recommended concentrations. Should it be
brushed, wiped with a cloth, dipped, or misted using a plant sprayer.

Would applying citric acid mitigate later contamination?

With the risks of contamination is it advisable to completely seal the
blank, and if so what with. I tend to use paraffin wax for sealing end
grain of most blanks as it appears reasonably inert ( I have a large
quantity left from the days I used to make candles), but what about the
liquid based sealers, or even emulsion paint, or diluted PVA.

As to cutting I am sort of limited at present as my bandsaws will only
cut just over 4 inches. I really need to get that bigger saw So they
have been left in half rounds. Is leaving the bark on going to be an
issue? How you handle the contamination risk from the blade as I can't
see oiling it to be a good idea? Would it be a case of applying citric
acid after cutting.

What about storage of blanks, are there other species they should be
kept away from any other species?

I will probably have to look into some open plastic racking, as I can
see a potential issue with the wire racking.
--
John

***Dry citric acid concentrations:
Trial and Error, I usually go "too strong ~20%" as I often use it almost
as a wipe on/off cleaner.
Too high will break down wood
Too low won't bleach adequately

***Would applying citric acid mitigate later contamination?
Don't know. Possibly if it kills fungi, appears to stop spalted pieces
from going to rot. Although I haven't done specific testing to determine
this. If I have boards bandsawed from a spalted piece, clean and start
working on a piece then leave it for a while. I've had the worked board
ok and the remainder seem to continue to rot. This could just be an issue
of concentration of fungi and original location of board within the tree/
log, i.e. the source direction of the fungal infection.
The way I use it, it doesn't leave a film or seal to prevent further
contamination. If I leave a tool on the board after treated it will
stain, but the stain can be removed with a further treatment. For
instance, if I get sloppy and get Paduak sawdust on a light board, say
Aspen, I must quickly spray off as much as possible with an oil-less air
compressor (airbrush compressor), then quickly wipe remaining off with a
citric solution or it will stain permanently. I highly recommend two air
compressors for a shop. Oil compressor for air tools and oil-less for
cleaning, blowing the sawdust off yourself, cleaning dust masks,
painting, sealing and any other liquid applications.

***Seal blanks?
I only seal logs, never blanks. Although I do occasionally seal the ends
of large cuts (2x8,4x4, etc.), but I do that to slow drying and prevent
splitting not to mitigate discoloration. I use paraffin wax.

***Bark on?
Don't know. May increase fungal activity. Not enough experience. I
usually cut into as large as manageable pieces from tree, seal both ends
and stack at least 1ft above ground for 1 season, 6-12 months, then cut
to blanks at end of summer and move indoors for another 6-12 months or
until dry.

***Contamination from blade?
Quick wipe to clean board after cutting if needed, usually I wait and
clean after final cut. I use Forest blades with dampeners and don't need
to sand or scrape after cutting for flat cuts. My bandsaw (not mine, but
same one)
http://www.woodcentral.com/shots/images/253inca.jpg
and lathe tooling don't stain. Hand transfer and leaving tools on top of
boards is the main issue for me. I always oil all my blades anyway. But
be careful with bandsaws, your drive wheel may have a rubber tire than
won't like the oil, most are neoprene so they should take it. Make your
own decision on this. Check with a lumber mill or other large bandsaw
user, you'll find almost all oil the blades, but this does not always
mean you should do the same thing on home/hobby equipment. I live near
the coast, fog/rain, so inland operations may differ. The oil is to
prevent rust not to mitigate staining. It is applied after cleaning the
blades/tools with mineral spirits at the end of each days use. Again, do
this on your own decision, some plastics and rubber don't like solvents.
The wipe down at the end of the day keeps the shop clean and ready for
precision work. I definitely will get staining between woods on the
bandsaw if I don't clean the blade. Usually only on the first piece of
light wood after an oily or dark wood. I often cut 1/8" thick for
marquetry, so the sap/oil is a bigger issue and the reason for cleaning.
Again, the oil is used for rust prevention. After a heavy session of
bandsaw prepping, I can go for months without using the saw again, so I
need the protection from humidity changes.

***Wood species to keep apart?
Dark softwoods, oily woods, reds, oranges, and some dark hardwoods.
ex. Bloodwood, Padauk, Purpleheart, Birdseye Redwood, etc.
I always stored my woods separate for easy identification after cutting.
I have too many varieties to tell apart after they're in blocks.
Bloodwood and Padauk, among others, are used to make dyes. The sawdust
colors will amaze you if you haven't worked with them yet. They are so
saturated, you'd swear somebody sold you a board soaked in dye.

***Plastic racking for drying?
I use open plastic stackable racking. Each box/stack can be carried into
shop for matching grain, figure pattern, etc. selection as there is no
light in storage area to prevent UV discoloration.

Just a thought (from a beginner) relating to need for bigger band saw:
Use a belt or disk sander or angle grinder with a 24 or 36 grit wheel.
I often use a hatchet to trim the edges. Needs to be sharp. More
spectacular when others are watching, but, no surprise, a lot more work.

Pete Stanaitis
--------------------

John wrote:
In message , Joe
writes


Cut and sticker as fast as possible.
Remove discolored pieces to separate area ASAP, fungal transfer like
spalting.
Use citric acid - lemon juice to bleach.
Holly is extremely sensitive to iron stain, avoid iron and steel contact.
Wash hands before handling, pay attention when working the wood to avoid
hand residue transfer.

I felled a 20ft high, 16in diameter tree affecting a neighbors fence last
year and got a reasonable yield. None of it was as white as I can
purchase but I use thin pieces for accents and with lemon bleaching it is
usable.


Be careful with the citric acid. It can bleach other woods and can
"bleed" into other woods when doing marquetry. Dry the bleached piece
thoroughly before glue-up next to contrasting (dark) porous woods.

For tool stain transfer issues I use mineral oil on metal tool surfaces.
This reduces/prevents rust and is easy to notice when it contacts your
hands vs. iron transfer which just makes your hands look dirty. When/if
your hands get oily, it reminds you to wash them before handling the
workpiece.


Hi Joe, thanks for the reply

What a lot of useful information. Which has posed some more food for
thought. I had already picked up on Holly taking iron stain from the
hands, but that begged the question as to mount it which you have
adequately anticipated.

Its interesting you use citric acid for bleaching the wood, I remember I
used to use it for cleaning up old low value copper/bronze coins. But
once I left them in a little too long and it ate through the coins. So
would be interested in any recommended concentrations. Should it be
brushed, wiped with a cloth, dipped, or misted using a plant sprayer.

Would applying citric acid mitigate later contamination?

With the risks of contamination is it advisable to completely seal the
blank, and if so what with. I tend to use paraffin wax for sealing end
grain of most blanks as it appears reasonably inert ( I have a large
quantity left from the days I used to make candles), but what about the
liquid based sealers, or even emulsion paint, or diluted PVA.

As to cutting I am sort of limited at present as my bandsaws will only
cut just over 4 inches. I really need to get that bigger saw So they
have been left in half rounds. Is leaving the bark on going to be an
issue? How you handle the contamination risk from the blade as I can't
see oiling it to be a good idea? Would it be a case of applying citric
acid after cutting.

What about storage of blanks, are there other species they should be
kept away from any other species?

I will probably have to look into some open plastic racking, as I can
see a potential issue with the wire racking.

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 18:30:34 -0500, spaco wrote:

Just a thought (from a beginner) relating to need for bigger band saw:
Use a belt or disk sander or angle grinder with a 24 or 36 grit wheel.
I often use a hatchet to trim the edges. Needs to be sharp. More
spectacular when others are watching, but, no surprise, a lot more work.

That really isn't the right tool for the job. I have a friend who was hit
with a piece of broken grit wheel while cutting metal under tension. Not
pleasant. If it went for the eye it could have gone right through his
cheap plastic safety goggles. This one wasn't so lucky:
http://www2.worksafebc.com/i/posters...15_grinder.htm

I don't consider myself an expert, but IMHO the band saw is one of the
safest cutting tools in the shop:
No kickback
No flying bits of broken blade/grit wheel spinning at 4000rpm
No chunks thrown forward to ricochet back at you
If the blade brakes it just stops where it is

Find a local woodturning group, woodworkers group, shared shop space, or
find a shop that will trade your turning or some of the wood for use of
their bandsaw. You'll only need it for the big pieces and you can cut
enough wood to turn for a month in a few hours of use.

Or get a chainsaw with a chain brake, still dangerous, but made for the
task. Cheap, and you can upgrade to a chainsaw mill.
http://www.onlinetoolreviews.com/rev...stfordmill.htm
(Just for reference. Never used this one.)
Don't know the manufacturer of the 36" one my neighbor has, but it works
great for the task. He bought it cheap at a garage sale without the saw.
I only use it to cut on-site, for most larger cuts I still use a friend's
large bandsaw at his shop. Rarely needed, I don't often go over 12".

You'll have plenty of chances in your life to hurt yourself using the
right tools properly. I use abrasive wheels often, but if they break and
hurt me, I want to know I wasn't at fault by doing something obviously
not proper. Safety first.

Hello John and Joe,

This is a very nice discussion on the treatment of Holly wood. With
your permission, I would like to publish this discussion in More
Woodturning. May I have your permission? You can contact me at
. If you don't get lost in the spam, I receive
your e-mail. Or, you can simply respond with an ok to use here in this
thread.

Fred Holder, More Woodturning
http://www.morewoodturning.net

On Mar 11, 6:29 pm, Joe wrote:
On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 18:30:34 -0500, spaco wrote:
Just a thought (from a beginner) relating to need for bigger band saw:
Use a belt or disk sander or angle grinder with a 24 or 36 grit wheel.
I often use a hatchet to trim the edges. Needs to be sharp. More
spectacular when others are watching, but, no surprise, a lot more work.

That really isn't the right tool for the job. I have a friend who was hit
with a piece of broken grit wheel while cutting metal under tension. Not
pleasant. If it went for the eye it could have gone right through his
cheap plastic safety goggles. This one wasn't so lucky:http://www2.worksafebc.com/i/posters...15_grinder.htm

I don't consider myself an expert, but IMHO the band saw is one of the
safest cutting tools in the shop:
No kickback
No flying bits of broken blade/grit wheel spinning at 4000rpm
No chunks thrown forward to ricochet back at you
If the blade brakes it just stops where it is

Find a local woodturning group, woodworkers group, shared shop space, or
find a shop that will trade your turning or some of the wood for use of
their bandsaw. You'll only need it for the big pieces and you can cut
enough wood to turn for a month in a few hours of use.

Or get a chainsaw with a chain brake, still dangerous, but made for the
task. Cheap, and you can upgrade to a chainsaw mill.http://www.onlinetoolreviews.com/rev...stfordmill.htm
(Just for reference. Never used this one.)
Don't know the manufacturer of the 36" one my neighbor has, but it works
great for the task. He bought it cheap at a garage sale without the saw.
I only use it to cut on-site, for most larger cuts I still use a friend's
large bandsaw at his shop. Rarely needed, I don't often go over 12".

You'll have plenty of chances in your life to hurt yourself using the
right tools properly. I use abrasive wheels often, but if they break and
hurt me, I want to know I wasn't at fault by doing something obviously
not proper. Safety first.

I have no problem with any freely available use of any of my comments
from rec.crafts.woodturning to be posted on
http://www.morewoodturning.net.
(no monies charged to view this info on your site).

And/or you can just add a google link if you want to allow others to
participate in the discussion easily.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.c...def36a92cf0034

I am a hobbyist and do not consider myself an expert. I have not been
trained or attended school for woodworking and my primary income is not
from woodworking.

"Answers" I give are from personal experience and
may result in damage or harm. Use at your own risk.

As with any suggestions from a web source, double check with other
sources for a sanity check. Grammatical errors may be present in
comments.

Assume all links are for reference only to clarify ideas
unless specifically endorsed.

In message , Joe
writes

Thanks for all the answers Joe, its taken me a while to assimilate them

***Dry citric acid concentrations:
Trial and Error, I usually go "too strong ~20%" as I often use it almost
as a wipe on/off cleaner.
Too high will break down wood
Too low won't bleach adequately
I suspect also from what you say that each piece of wood adds to the
equation, whatever the acid is doing it is doing it to something, and if
there is less of that something, then the acid will have greater effect.
I guess that the only information that may be obtained relating to that
is does the concentration of this something variable dependant on height
of trunk. I.e. Is it more concentrated at the base than top. Therefore
concentration of citric acid should be less at top?



***Would applying citric acid mitigate later contamination?
Don't know. Possibly if it kills fungi, appears to stop spalted pieces
from going to rot. Although I haven't done specific testing to determine
this. If I have boards bandsawed from a spalted piece, clean and start
working on a piece then leave it for a while. I've had the worked board
ok and the remainder seem to continue to rot. This could just be an issue
of concentration of fungi and original location of board within the tree/
log, i.e. the source direction of the fungal infection.

Have you tried using a microwave to kill the fungi?


***Seal blanks?
I only seal logs, never blanks. Although I do occasionally seal the ends
of large cuts (2x8,4x4, etc.), but I do that to slow drying and prevent
splitting not to mitigate discoloration. I use paraffin wax.
I have several half rounds sealed on the endgrain to reduce splitting
but I will have a look over the next year to see if it has helped reduce
discoloration.



***Bark on?
Don't know. May increase fungal activity. Not enough experience. I
usually cut into as large as manageable pieces from tree, seal both ends
and stack at least 1ft above ground for 1 season, 6-12 months, then cut
to blanks at end of summer and move indoors for another 6-12 months or
until dry.
I will see what happens with my blanks, and if I see any issues of
fungal activity around the bark will report back



***Contamination from blade?
Quick wipe to clean board after cutting if needed, usually I wait and
clean after final cut. I use Forest blades with dampeners and don't need
to sand or scrape after cutting for flat cuts.
In a way I guess there is even a risk of contamination from the original
chainsaw used to fell the tree. I wonder if the risk of contamination is
less the closer it is to the time the tree is cut


***Wood species to keep apart?
Dark softwoods, oily woods, reds, oranges, and some dark hardwoods.
ex. Bloodwood, Padauk, Purpleheart, Birdseye Redwood, etc.
I always stored my woods separate for easy identification after cutting.
I have too many varieties to tell apart after they're in blocks.
Bloodwood and Padauk, among others, are used to make dyes. The sawdust
colors will amaze you if you haven't worked with them yet. They are so
saturated, you'd swear somebody sold you a board soaked in dye.
At present we have all the wood in separate stack, except for the pick
and mix ( those I don't know what they are) but I can see inevitably
some day the stacks will get closer together , so need to plan ahead.
Maybe this is part of the reason why I have seen in some stores blanks
completely encased in paraffin wax( other reasons I can see are to
prevent moisture absorption or further drying, and to make the grain
stand out).


***Plastic racking for drying?
I use open plastic stackable racking. Each box/stack can be carried into
shop for matching grain, figure pattern, etc. selection as there is no
light in storage area to prevent UV discoloration.

Sounds like my storage, dark cellar nice airflow,

--
John

In message , Joe
writes
I have no problem with any freely available use of any of my comments
from rec.crafts.woodturning to be posted on
http://www.morewoodturning.net.
(no monies charged to view this info on your site).

And/or you can just add a google link if you want to allow others to
participate in the discussion easily.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.c...se_thread/thre
ad/c7757309d069b539/75def36a92cf0034?#75def36a92cf0034

I am a hobbyist and do not consider myself an expert. I have not been
trained or attended school for woodworking and my primary income is not
from woodworking.

"Answers" I give are from personal experience and
may result in damage or harm. Use at your own risk.

As with any suggestions from a web source, double check with other
sources for a sanity check. Grammatical errors may be present in
comments.

Assume all links are for reference only to clarify ideas
unless specifically endorsed.

Sounds like a great idea to me. You can follow all the theories in the
world, but there's nothing like hearing about it from someone who has
experienced it
--
John

On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 08:41:49 +0000, John wrote:
***Is it more concentrated at the base than top. Therefore
concentration of citric acid should be less at top?
I look at it more of damage vs. effect. The softer or more porous (or
just more affected) need less concentration. Otherwise, I'd go as high
as possible for maximum effect. Too high and you can see the damage with
a microscope, even a magnifying glass. I looking for maximum bleaching
with minimum fiber damage. Porosity vs. location, I'd expect more
differences with heartwood vs. sapwood than top to bottom, although at
the extremes new growth vs. old growth could definitely be different.

***Have you tried using a microwave to kill the fungi?
No, only for drying and killing bugs/worms. Sounds reasonable.
I'll give it a try for some of my spalted maple.
Research implies many fungi, including blue fungi, can be killed by
150degf.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/ii-2.pdf
I have a large drying oven I use for seashells and often use this instead
because you can control humidity while raising heat. Used to prep boards
for bending and to kill bugs in thick pieces or to control drying evenly.
Microwave sometimes splits blanks because of hot spots and it's difficult
to reach and hold a specific temperature. i.e. kill the bugs without
drying.

Another idea I've played with is UV for bleaching, not cleaning.
Apply a frisket or stencil and use strong UV to bleach a pattern before
applying finish -think sandblasting with light. It works great with dark
woods. Used in combination with burnishing to achieve a palette on one
board, great for 3D optical and depth illusions. I've wondered what
affect shortwave UV (dangerous) or high intensity longwave UV might be
able to achieve. As with most processes, too much often causes damage
instead of working better.

Hot sand burnishing
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworki...AndTechniques/
SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=29464

Another idea I want to try sometime is fuming.
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas...white_oak.html


Just for fun, this machine could do incredible CNC burnishing, check out
the toast:
http://www.evilmadscientist.com/article.php/candyfab