When hollowing and you can't see the tool tip, you have to cut by
feel. I recall reading an article (by Lyn Mangiameli?) which
introduced a word I had not heard before which describes the condition
of "knowing where the tip of the tool is even though you can't see
it". It's related to phantom limb, I think. Can anyone remind me of
the word? It's on the tip of my tongue, but I can't find it.

"Mark Fitzsimmons" wrote: (clip) I recall reading an article (by Lyn
Mangiameli?) which introduced a word I had not heard before which describes
the condition of "knowing where the tip of the tool is even though you can't
see it". (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes, it was Lyn, and I cant think of the word either, right now. (It will
probably come to me right after I hit "send.") BTW, the application was
controversial. There were those that insisted that it applies to the
positioning of body parts, like finger tips, but not to extensions, like
tool tips.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception

"Mark Fitzsimmons" wrote in message
oups.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception


Precisely. It's a stretch to believe that you have proprioceptive sense
with disparate lengths of handle, etc, but for lack of a better term, it'll
do.

The muscle feedback circuitry is why you want to make your entry cut with
locked small muscles, pivoting with your whole body. Gross "balance" rather
than fine muscle feedback, which is faulty and slow until you're established
in the cut. Same principle as using the far end of the gouge to make fine
adjustments to the working end. A perceptible half inch there will make an
imperceptible 32nd of an inch adjustment to the cutting edge.

I do not know much about proprioception but I do know that I often find my
eyes closed while working inside a hollow form because it is easier to see
the tool tip that way.
---
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS
http://aroundthewoods.com
http://roundopinions.blogspot.com

"George" wrote in message
et...

"Mark Fitzsimmons" wrote in message
oups.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception


Precisely. It's a stretch to believe that you have proprioceptive sense
with disparate lengths of handle, etc, but for lack of a better term,
it'll do.

The muscle feedback circuitry is why you want to make your entry cut with
locked small muscles, pivoting with your whole body. Gross "balance"
rather than fine muscle feedback, which is faulty and slow until you're
established in the cut. Same principle as using the far end of the gouge
to make fine adjustments to the working end. A perceptible half inch
there will make an imperceptible 32nd of an inch adjustment to the cutting
edge.

Hi Darrell

Why would you do it just the way I also do it ?????, look and listen,
while deaf and blind in a way.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo


On May 8, 9:57 pm, "Darrell Feltmate"
wrote:
I do not know much about proprioception but I do know that I often find my
eyes closed while working inside a hollow form because it is easier to see
the tool tip that way.
---
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NShttp://aroundthewoods.comhttp://roundopinions.blogspot.com

"George" wrote in message

et...



"Mark Fitzsimmons" wrote in message
roups.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception

Precisely. It's a stretch to believe that you have proprioceptive sense
with disparate lengths of handle, etc, but for lack of a better term,
it'll do.

The muscle feedback circuitry is why you want to make your entry cut with
locked small muscles, pivoting with your whole body. Gross "balance"
rather than fine muscle feedback, which is faulty and slow until you're
established in the cut. Same principle as using the far end of the gouge
to make fine adjustments to the working end. A perceptible half inch
there will make an imperceptible 32nd of an inch adjustment to the cutting
edge.

On 8 May 2007 22:25:33 -0700, "
wrote:

Hi Darrell

Why would you do it just the way I also do it ?????, look and listen,
while deaf and blind in a way.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

Huh. Interesting thread- it's not all that often I get to learn a new
word!

Closing your eyes is a good way to do lots of things- when I was
working as a sawyer and training new guys to cut single pieces by
hand, I suggested that they close their eyes and use their finger tips
to align the ends of the cut peice and the one they are trying to
match- there is a perceptable difference between the sensitivity of
your fingertips that way. Cutting off one or more senses tends to
focus the others, at least in most people.

While I can see Leo's statement about being "deaf and blind in a way."
having some merit, I'd have to say that what I use is "proprioception"
and hearing- it may be a matter of the hollowing tools I use, but I've
found that the best way to tell what kind of cut I'm making is by
listening to the wood shear away from the interior wall- different
cuts make different noises. That intangible location of the tool tip
is just there, but it's noticably there- I can hollow things awfully
thin, and never poke through the side or bottom.

On another hollowing related note, I had some luck with a new
hollowing tool I ground when I turned a vase last sunday- Basically,
I used a bit of M2 punch tooling that was .5" diameter, ground three
sides flat (the "top", the bottom, and one side.) to about 1" back,
and then ground a large radius on the side. Basically, it is a
scraper that has a profile similar to the tip of a butterknife, with
the sharpened bit on the curved edge.

It was not all that great when I was using on the toolrest, but oddly
enough, I decided to slide the handle into a 3' section of black pipe
and try it out freehand, and I was able to get the walls of the inside
smooth enough to finish without sanding. The bottom was another story
entirely, but end grain is always a challenge to cut. Getting the
walls that smooth was a real victory!

Remember Leo, great minds think alike and foo... never mind.
Darrell
---
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS
http://aroundthewoods.com
http://roundopinions.blogspot.com

wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi Darrell

Why would you do it just the way I also do it ?????, look and listen,
while deaf and blind in a way.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo


On May 8, 9:57 pm, "Darrell Feltmate"
wrote:
I do not know much about proprioception but I do know that I often find
my
eyes closed while working inside a hollow form because it is easier to
see
the tool tip that way.
---
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NShttp://aroundthewoods.comhttp://roundopinions.blogspot.com

"George" wrote in message

et...



"Mark Fitzsimmons" wrote in message
roups.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception

Precisely. It's a stretch to believe that you have proprioceptive
sense
with disparate lengths of handle, etc, but for lack of a better term,
it'll do.

The muscle feedback circuitry is why you want to make your entry cut
with
locked small muscles, pivoting with your whole body. Gross "balance"
rather than fine muscle feedback, which is faulty and slow until you're
established in the cut. Same principle as using the far end of the
gouge
to make fine adjustments to the working end. A perceptible half inch
there will make an imperceptible 32nd of an inch adjustment to the
cutting
edge.

On May 9, 3:12 am, Prometheus wrote:
On 8 May 2007 22:25:33 -0700, "

wrote:
Hi Darrell

Why would you do it just the way I also do it ?????, look and listen,
while deaf and blind in a way.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

Huh. Interesting thread- it's not all that often I get to learn a new
word!

Closing your eyes is a good way to do lots of things- when I was
working as a sawyer and training new guys to cut single pieces by
hand, I suggested that they close their eyes and use their finger tips
to align the ends of the cut peice and the one they are trying to
match- there is a perceptable difference between the sensitivity of
your fingertips that way. Cutting off one or more senses tends to
focus the others, at least in most people.

While I can see Leo's statement about being "deaf and blind in a way."
having some merit, I'd have to say that what I use is "proprioception"
and hearing- it may be a matter of the hollowing tools I use, but I've
found that the best way to tell what kind of cut I'm making is by
listening to the wood shear away from the interior wall- different
cuts make different noises. That intangible location of the tool tip
is just there, but it's noticably there- I can hollow things awfully
thin, and never poke through the side or bottom.

On another hollowing related note, I had some luck with a new
hollowing tool I ground when I turned a vase last sunday- Basically,
I used a bit of M2 punch tooling that was .5" diameter, ground three
sides flat (the "top", the bottom, and one side.) to about 1" back,
and then ground a large radius on the side. Basically, it is a
scraper that has a profile similar to the tip of a butterknife, with
the sharpened bit on the curved edge.

It was not all that great when I was using on the toolrest, but oddly
enough, I decided to slide the handle into a 3' section of black pipe
and try it out freehand, and I was able to get the walls of the inside
smooth enough to finish without sanding. The bottom was another story
entirely, but end grain is always a challenge to cut. Getting the
walls that smooth was a real victory!

Sounds like a negative rake scraper a la Stuart Batty. I beleive the
old Ivory turner used this type of tool.

Prometheus wrote:

Huh. Interesting thread- it's not all that often I get to learn a new
word!

Serendipitous, no?

On another hollowing related note, I had some luck with a new
hollowing tool I ground when I turned a vase last sunday- Basically,
I used a bit of M2 punch tooling that was .5" diameter, ground three
sides flat (the "top", the bottom, and one side.) to about 1" back,
and then ground a large radius on the side. Basically, it is a
scraper that has a profile similar to the tip of a butterknife, with
the sharpened bit on the curved edge.

Okay ... pony up. How's about a picture of the tip grind?

Bill
--
http://nmwoodworks.com/cube


---
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Virus Database (VPS): 000739-0, 05/09/2007
Tested on: 5/9/2007 9:06:56 PM
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http://www.avast.com

On May 8, 11:25 am, Mark Fitzsimmons
wrote:
When hollowing and you can't see the tool tip, you have to cut by
feel. I recall reading an article (by Lyn Mangiameli?) which
introduced a word I had not heard before which describes the condition
of "knowing where the tip of the tool is even though you can't see
it". It's related to phantom limb, I think. Can anyone remind me of
the word? It's on the tip of my tongue, but I can't find it.

The only word that comes to mind is "GUESSING" Tom

On Wed, 09 May 2007 21:06:56 -0400, Bill in Detroit
wrote:

Prometheus wrote:

Huh. Interesting thread- it's not all that often I get to learn a new
word!

Serendipitous, no?

On another hollowing related note, I had some luck with a new
hollowing tool I ground when I turned a vase last sunday- Basically,
I used a bit of M2 punch tooling that was .5" diameter, ground three
sides flat (the "top", the bottom, and one side.) to about 1" back,
and then ground a large radius on the side. Basically, it is a
scraper that has a profile similar to the tip of a butterknife, with
the sharpened bit on the curved edge.

Okay ... pony up. How's about a picture of the tip grind?

No camera (Oh, how I wish I could get one and use it- but they hate
me!) I'll draw it up, and post a .jpg to ABPW. (To answer the
inevitable question, ABPW is alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking)

It'll be under the header "Hollowing Scraper (from
rec.crafts.woodturning)"

On Thu, 10 May 2007 04:10:40 -0500, Prometheus
wrote:

No camera (Oh, how I wish I could get one and use it- but they hate
me!) I'll draw it up, and post a .jpg to ABPW. (To answer the
inevitable question, ABPW is alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking)

It'll be under the header "Hollowing Scraper (from
rec.crafts.woodturning)"

Just a note, for this and future reference- here's a link to a site
that posts (at least some) of the pictures from ABPW. I don't know
how often they refresh it, but something is better than nothing if you
are accessing this group from Google or some other web-based forum,
and don't have access to binary newsgroups.

http://www.usenet-replayer.com/group...odworking.html

"Mark Fitzsimmons" wrote: (clip) Can anyone remind me of the word? It's on
the tip of my tongue, but I can't find it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Tastebud.

tomstorey wrote:
On May 8, 11:25 am, Mark Fitzsimmons
wrote:
When hollowing and you can't see the tool tip, you have to cut by
feel. I recall reading an article (by Lyn Mangiameli?) which
introduced a word I had not heard before which describes the condition
of "knowing where the tip of the tool is even though you can't see
it". It's related to phantom limb, I think. Can anyone remind me of
the word? It's on the tip of my tongue, but I can't find it.

The only word that comes to mind is "GUESSING" Tom


I'd add the word - EXPERIENCE



--
Mike Vore
http://www.OhMyWoodness.com
http://mike.vorefamily.net/twr