Inspired by Leo V's website, I've spent the last couple of days doing
roughing mostly. Still have a long way to go before I match Leo's three
zillion blanks drying on the shelf, but it's a start.

Got me thinking about drying though. Usually I rough turn to 10% of
diameter, slather on end grain sealer inside and out (on the end grain -
I ignore the side grain) then toss them in a paper bag w/shavings.
Wondering what everybody else does. Leo seems to coat them and toss
them on the shelf w/o any bagging. I presume he coats the inside and
out. Is the whole thing coated?

So what's everybody else do after roughing? Seal and bag? Seal only?
Seal inside and out? Various permutations of the above? Yeah, I know
about finish turning wet bowls and letting them warp. But I'm not
asking about that.

S'later...

....Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska
Registered Linux User No: 307357

I turn bowls only out of "free" wood, harvested (or stolen, depending on the
source) from storm-damaged or serviced trees in my immediate area (having a
110 year-old golf course 2 blocks away helps a lot). I rough to 10% and
then paper bag. If I have a blank that needs to dry extra slowly (cherry or
beech come to mind), then I'll spray the outside of the bag with water daily
for a week or so. No shavings, no coatings. In my experience, wet shavings
grow mold and don't do much to retard drying. Coatings of any kind would
cost money, not in the spirit of my "free" wood or of the advertising I do
to sell the bowls (from "reclaimed" wood!). I lose only a few to checking.

Michael Latcha - at home in Redford, MI


"Kevin Miller" wrote in message
...
Inspired by Leo V's website, I've spent the last couple of days doing
roughing mostly. Still have a long way to go before I match Leo's three
zillion blanks drying on the shelf, but it's a start.

Got me thinking about drying though. Usually I rough turn to 10% of
diameter, slather on end grain sealer inside and out (on the end grain -
I ignore the side grain) then toss them in a paper bag w/shavings.
Wondering what everybody else does. Leo seems to coat them and toss
them on the shelf w/o any bagging. I presume he coats the inside and
out. Is the whole thing coated?

So what's everybody else do after roughing? Seal and bag? Seal only?
Seal inside and out? Various permutations of the above? Yeah, I know
about finish turning wet bowls and letting them warp. But I'm not
asking about that.

S'later...

...Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska
Registered Linux User No: 307357

So what's everybody else do after roughing? Seal and bag? Seal only?
Seal inside and out? Various permutations of the above?

I think for this information to be valuable you need to also collect what their
shop humidity is, do the heat in winter, cool in summer, etc. Dan

On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 18:25:12 -0800, Kevin Miller
wrote:

Inspired by Leo V's website, I've spent the last couple of days doing
roughing mostly. Still have a long way to go before I match Leo's three
zillion blanks drying on the shelf, but it's a start.

Got me thinking about drying though. Usually I rough turn to 10% of
diameter, slather on end grain sealer inside and out (on the end grain -
I ignore the side grain) then toss them in a paper bag w/shavings.
Wondering what everybody else does. Leo seems to coat them and toss
them on the shelf w/o any bagging. I presume he coats the inside and
out. Is the whole thing coated?

So what's everybody else do after roughing? Seal and bag? Seal only?
Seal inside and out? Various permutations of the above? Yeah, I know
about finish turning wet bowls and letting them warp. But I'm not
asking about that.

S'later...

...Kevin

I tried paper bags, newspaper, racks, etc...

Got tons of cracked bowls and went to turning thin and letting them warp ...

Bottom line of failure of bags, etc. ?
I live in Central California... hot, dry summers make everything crack..

Add to that the fact that lots of folks use their basements for bowl drying
because the temperature is more even.... basements are pretty much non-existant
in California..

Now, if I had a giant wine cellar with temp & humidity control... *g*

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

mac davis wrote:
On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 18:25:12 -0800, Kevin Miller
wrote:

Inspired by Leo V's website, I've spent the last couple of days doing
roughing mostly. Still have a long way to go before I match Leo's three
zillion blanks drying on the shelf, but it's a start.

Got me thinking about drying though. Usually I rough turn to 10% of
diameter, slather on end grain sealer inside and out (on the end grain -
I ignore the side grain) then toss them in a paper bag w/shavings.
Wondering what everybody else does. Leo seems to coat them and toss
them on the shelf w/o any bagging. I presume he coats the inside and
out. Is the whole thing coated?

So what's everybody else do after roughing? Seal and bag? Seal only?
Seal inside and out? Various permutations of the above? Yeah, I know
about finish turning wet bowls and letting them warp. But I'm not
asking about that.

S'later...

...Kevin

I tried paper bags, newspaper, racks, etc...

Got tons of cracked bowls and went to turning thin and letting them warp ...

Bottom line of failure of bags, etc. ?
I live in Central California... hot, dry summers make everything crack..

Add to that the fact that lots of folks use their basements for bowl drying
because the temperature is more even.... basements are pretty much non-existant
in California..

Now, if I had a giant wine cellar with temp & humidity control... *g*

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

Greetings,mac

Here in Central Texas, the humidity in the summer is tricky for drying
bowls. I have a shop that I leave open to the weather, except for
storms. and have found the denatured alcohol soaking method, wrapping
the outside and tape at the edge to give more success than failure. I
am in the middle of a large run of elm that was storm damaged and very
wet when cut. Weekly weight tests labeled on the day of the comparison,
is my only gauge as to when to start finish turning these blanks that
are 14" down to 8". I might add that 12" to 14" deep hollow forms are
included in this run. I turn a lot of mesquite as well that I try to
cut only in the winter. If cut in the summer, when the sap is high, I
soak in denatured alcohol. EMC is usually achieved within 8 weeks. I
hope this comment helps you.

John Riley

"Kevin Miller" wrote in message
...


Got me thinking about drying though. Usually I rough turn to 10% of
diameter, slather on end grain sealer inside and out (on the end grain -
I ignore the side grain) then toss them in a paper bag w/shavings.
Wondering what everybody else does. Leo seems to coat them and toss
them on the shelf w/o any bagging. I presume he coats the inside and
out. Is the whole thing coated?

So what's everybody else do after roughing? Seal and bag? Seal only?
Seal inside and out? Various permutations of the above? Yeah, I know
about finish turning wet bowls and letting them warp. But I'm not
asking about that.

I've got a basement, so I put them where the air doesn't exchange much and
stays at ~75% RH after the first day or two. When I get around to it, I
move them to dryer places to store for use. 65% or less.

First day or two wants to see the surface moisture I've ejected
centrifugally dissipate, otherwise they mildew on me. Which is why I don't
coat. Played that and suffered the consequences, though places where it's
really dry would benefit, I suppose. Makes no sense to coat the inside,
that's under compressive stress, so no cracks get a chance. Slowing loss on
the outside which _wants_ to pull apart is yet another matter.

If you've got a humidity gage, test various locations and you can play a
real shell game, even to the point of pushing drying if you're impatient.
First stage there is to turn thinner than 10%. Most domestic stuff can take
a 5-7.5 % over desired wall thickness without a problem. Look your
varieties up in the FPL literature to help out.

George wrote:

I've got a basement, so I put them where the air doesn't exchange much and
stays at ~75% RH after the first day or two. When I get around to it, I
move them to dryer places to store for use. 65% or less.

My RH is usually around 65% I think. They're just out in my garage,
which is semi heated. Guess I could bring them inside after a while; how
long do you wait before you move them? It's usually a bit warmer in the
house so it would speed drying up a bit.

First day or two wants to see the surface moisture I've ejected
centrifugally dissipate, otherwise they mildew on me. Which is why I don't
coat. Played that and suffered the consequences, though places where it's

Since most of my wood is somewhat spalted anyway, a little bit more
doesn't usually hurt. The really nasty looking stuff turns off in 1/16"
or so. I always *mean* to turn it sooner, but somehow it usually sits
on the wood pile for a year or so before I get to it! Oh well. g

really dry would benefit, I suppose. Makes no sense to coat the inside,
that's under compressive stress, so no cracks get a chance. Slowing loss on
the outside which _wants_ to pull apart is yet another matter.

I'm not sure I understand you here George. The wood warps and cracks
radially. On a 1" thick wall, I can't imagine that there's much
difference in stresses on the inside of the bowl and the outside. I'm
not talking about coating the bottom or sides - just the end grain.
Since it's just an inch thick, it can dry pretty fast, hence coating
both sides of the wall. But maybe that's overkill? An old Scotsman
like myself doesn't mind not wasting the extra Anchorseal! g


If you've got a humidity gage, test various locations and you can play a
real shell game, even to the point of pushing drying if you're impatient.
First stage there is to turn thinner than 10%. Most domestic stuff can take
a 5-7.5 % over desired wall thickness without a problem. Look your
varieties up in the FPL literature to help out.

Alder warps quite a bit - going much less than 10% doesn't leave much
room for error or subsequent design. Other woods can be much better
behaved, but around here if you're talking free you pretty much have
your choice of alder, mountain ash, spruce or hemlock. Kinda slim
pickings. I have placed a board inside the bowl perpendicular to the
grain which helps, but that's a pain if you're doing a bunch of bowls...

....Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska
Registered Linux User No: 307357

Dan Bollinger wrote:
So what's everybody else do after roughing? Seal and bag? Seal only?
Seal inside and out? Various permutations of the above?

I think for this information to be valuable you need to also collect
what their shop humidity is, do the heat in winter, cool in summer,
etc. Dan

Good point Dan. Much different here than in the Southwest, or even most
places down in the lower 48. So for comparison's sake, I'll mention
that I usually turn alder and that the RH is around 65% on average I
think. My garage is semi-heated - a bit warmer than outside when it's
rainy and a bit cooler when it's sunny...

....Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska
Registered Linux User No: 307357

So what's everybody else do after roughing? Seal and bag? Seal only?

At the risk of offending our resident expert on 'little known or cared
about facts," you know who he is. the guy who does not write in
sentences and offers dubious web references to prove his points. I rough
turn to about 10% of the final thickness, then soak in Denatured Alcohol
for about 24 hours. After soaking, the outside of the blank is wrapped
in brown paper leaving the inside of the bowl open.

I weigh the bowl every day and record the weight to a tenth of an ounce.
Typically, the weight of the bowl has stabilized within two weeks and is
ready for final turning. My criteria for stabilized weight is when the
weight of the blank is constant for three consecutive days.

Is this a prefect system? Is it the fastest way to dry? I don't know the
answer to these questions. What I know is that after thirty or more
bowls dried this way, only one cracked. The remainder warped but not
enough that they couldn't be trued with a second turning.

The system works for me.

Harry

Kevin Miller wrote:


So what's everybody else do after roughing? Seal and bag? Seal only?
Seal inside and out? Various permutations of the above? Yeah, I know
about finish turning wet bowls and letting them warp. But I'm not
asking about that.


I usually rough turn to a nominal 10%, although for small bowls it may
be a bit more as I rarely go below 5/8 inch wall thickness. I paper
bag the rough out, put and keep in a basement checking and changing
bags daily. (You can air dry and re use the bags) If any small cracks
start, I will hit with thick CA. Usuallly I do not use any sealer but
have on some occasions where multiple small cracks appeared.

After a few weeks, I leave the bowl out, at first on the floor, later
on a shelf: how long depends on species, how wet the wood was at the
start and how urgent my need for finished pieces is. Nothing
scientific, just intuition and experience.

With mesquite, I just turn to finish thickness and allow to air dry,
then sand. The stuff is wonderfully stable and well behaved.
Partially seasoned maple burl can usually be handled the same as
mesquite

Kip Powers
Rogers, AR

Hey Harry, ye is not offended. Lately, Florida air has more water
than it can hold and brown bagging these rainy days means carrying
alcohol out of the store in a brown paper bag.

Being a rule breaking dummy, I chop the bark & twigs off NIP logs, cut
to blank length and rough turn to round. Then I paint the entire blank
liberally with any cheap 50% LDD, store under open cover and get around
to turning them when I please. Works for me, but I don't recommend this
secret to anyone else since scientists on Norfolk Island have shown that
it only works for me.


Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter


http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Being a rule breaking dummy, I chop the bark & twigs off NIP logs, cut
to blank length and rough turn to round.

Arch,

I got a log about a month ago that was supposed to be Birch. Cut it into
four blanks and was looking forward to turning some nice green wood. The
bark or the layer just under the bark was so abrasive that the edge on
the gouge lasted less than a minute. One pass on the blank and there
were streams of wood going over my shoulder and on the next
pass...nothing. Once the layer was gone, it turned like butter. In fact
I set a new, personal, indoor record for the length of shaving. This was
at least six feet long but since it was full of curls, it must have been
longer. That' fun!

Harry

Hi Kevin

Drying bowls how, you ask???
There are some basics, but there are many BUTs, and IT DEPENDS, so what
works for me should also work for you, yes, IF your conditions are like
mine, your wood the same, thickness etc etc etc.
Give up yet ??
So what do I do.
Normally turn to 8-10% at the rim, than thinner as I go to the bottom.
Make sure I start with wood that does not have splits already, it I
don't want splits in my finished work
I date and I.D. the rough out, and go over the turning very carefully
to see if there are any signs of checking, ( if there is any, it is
almost always because they were there already, and normally get caught
while turning the outside, and I turn them away) also are there knots
or the rim very close to the pith, knots are CA'd with thin CA soaking
in, the pith area gets CA often if I expect the wood to check.
Some woods I will paper bag, or newspaper if to big for a bag, which
wood you ask, well in my case not many but Cherry and Mulberry are
often bagged, and also the ones with the very small checks, and I do
not CA the small checks, I used to do that, but the glue lines will
stay, and now I will just let the roughout dry, I do check them
regularly in the beginning less so after the initial week or so.
I found that often the small hairline cracks are totally gone when the
wood has dried, if not and I am not able to turn them away, then I
might soak in 50/50 glue /water for a few hours and give them another
drying tour, the water/glue soak will swell the wood and the glue will
keep the wood from opening up again, works for me and you won't see the
glue lines like the CA lines in my experience.
I do anchor seal bowl blanks, but not roughouts.
Now my cabin that I build to dry my roughouts is almost airtight and
fully insulated, the seams were caulked and the small windows double
paned with lexan, the interior walls floor and ceiling and doors are
unpainted wood, (1 infrared 150 watt light bulb will keep the interior
above freezing if I find the humidity going to high) the reasoning for
this is that the wood from the building and the roughouts and also the
air work like a absorber, slowing down the humidity swings and also the
insulation slows down the temperature swings, it still gets hot or cold
but it takes longer, the humidity will get higher or lower but it takes
longer, the wood will dry but it takes longer.
I have used this for well over 10 years now and it works for me.
I did get unexpected splitting but they are very few and far between, 1
or 2 cases I got by leaving the doors open one sunny day and a big Elm
that was in there for only a few weeks got a large split, and also one
day I had a larger black walnut sitting on my mower where the sun shone
onto it, I got checks on the inside and outside where the sun shone in
and against it, so yes I do screw up sometimes, but other than that
hardly any unexpected splitting.
Then there are those times when I turn something with a large knot or
reaction wood and/or bark inclusions, I do know that some might split
on me, for instance I do have one black walnut crotch wood turning
right now that has some bark inclusions and also a knot inline with
that, bark and natural edge also left on it, I did know that it was
going to split on me so I made a stainless steel staple from wire and
put that across the bark inclusion, yes the knot split but the bowl is
still together, BUT SOMETIMES YOU CAN"T WIN.
The best way to keep wood from splitting is to give it time, give it
time to move while the water leaves the wood, give it time to keep the
stresses low in the wood while drying.
If there is TOO much of a difference between the amount of water on the
edge of the wood and deeper inside the wood than the wood WILL split,
however some wood splits not as quickly as other wood Elm, Catalpa,
Willow etc. are some woods that I know not to split easily, Arbutes,
Lilac, Tartarian Honey Suckle are some that I know want to split just
looking at it.
Boiling these does help, in my experience, (boil 1 hour per inch of
thickness and keep and leave under the water till it has cooled off)
Well this should cover most of your question I hope.

http://homepage.mac.com/l.vanderloo/PhotoAlbum4.html

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo



Kevin Miller wrote:
Inspired by Leo V's website, I've spent the last couple of days doing
roughing mostly. Still have a long way to go before I match Leo's three
zillion blanks drying on the shelf, but it's a start.

Got me thinking about drying though. Usually I rough turn to 10% of
diameter, slather on end grain sealer inside and out (on the end grain -
I ignore the side grain) then toss them in a paper bag w/shavings.
Wondering what everybody else does. Leo seems to coat them and toss
them on the shelf w/o any bagging. I presume he coats the inside and
out. Is the whole thing coated?

So what's everybody else do after roughing? Seal and bag? Seal only?
Seal inside and out? Various permutations of the above? Yeah, I know
about finish turning wet bowls and letting them warp. But I'm not
asking about that.

S'later...

...Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska
Registered Linux User No: 307357

On 10 Jul 2006 08:36:29 -0700, "John Riley" wrote:

yesterday was 103 with about 20% humidity... today and tomorrow are supposed to
be 104 to 109 with about 15%...
My shop averages about 10 degrees above outside temp, so it's not a good bowl
drying place.. *g*


Here in Central Texas, the humidity in the summer is tricky for drying
bowls. I have a shop that I leave open to the weather, except for
storms. and have found the denatured alcohol soaking method, wrapping
the outside and tape at the edge to give more success than failure. I
am in the middle of a large run of elm that was storm damaged and very
wet when cut. Weekly weight tests labeled on the day of the comparison,
is my only gauge as to when to start finish turning these blanks that
are 14" down to 8". I might add that 12" to 14" deep hollow forms are
included in this run. I turn a lot of mesquite as well that I try to
cut only in the winter. If cut in the summer, when the sap is high, I
soak in denatured alcohol. EMC is usually achieved within 8 weeks. I
hope this comment helps you.

John Riley

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

On 15 Jul 2006 20:15:40 -0700, "
wrote:

Hi Mac

But you know what you can count on ??GG

Day before yesterday the humidity was 100% temp 28 celsius(about 82F)
today 30 Celsius and 60% humidity, nighttime temps run 60 to 70F.

My shop starts 10 degrees cooler (by the time I get going ;-)) ) than
outside and stays that for a while, if I keep the door closed but goes
up with the lathe and lights on, and I have the door open a few hours
later, my wife says it's to warm, I say it's just nice, I love the
summer weather here, but come December-January and I could stand some
of your weather at that time.

Here's a question, have you ever tried to put a rough turned piece in a
box and fill it up with dry or just barely damp sand ??? than set aside
and have look after a few days, I wonder if in your environment that
would work to slow the drying without getting a fungus or mildew going.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

That works in the winter, Leo, but I'd need to refrigerate it during the
summer...
Looking forward to the shop with A/C in Baja!

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

He Mac
That'll improve only the temperature Mac, not the humidity, still you'd
be able to work in relative comfort, and you'll work around the drying
problem.
Over here I (we) hate AC, we had it in our house and we never used it,
about 10 years ago we did some extensive renovation and put in a high
efficiency furnace and threw out the AC, I guess we need the furnace
and you the AC.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

mac davis wrote:

That works in the winter, Leo, but I'd need to refrigerate it during the
summer...
Looking forward to the shop with A/C in Baja!

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

On 16 Jul 2006 11:31:26 -0700, "
wrote:

He Mac
That'll improve only the temperature Mac, not the humidity, still you'd
be able to work in relative comfort, and you'll work around the drying
problem.
Over here I (we) hate AC, we had it in our house and we never used it,
about 10 years ago we did some extensive renovation and put in a high
efficiency furnace and threw out the AC, I guess we need the furnace
and you the AC.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

That would be my guess, Leo..

Wish I had it here... I've probably spent 8 hours in the shop in the last 2
weeks because it's usually 92 - 95 degrees in there by 11 am..
I went out at 6:30 this morning to sand a bowl and it was 78 F outside and 85 in
the shop..

Also, the AC lowers the humidity, doesn't it?
Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

Hi Mac

Your right Mac, and that's what I meant, it worsens the drying
situation by drying even faster.

Mac wrote /snip/

Also, the AC lowers the humidity, doesn't it?

Mac

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

"mac davis" wrote in message
news

Also, the AC lowers the humidity, doesn't it?

Swamp cooler.

Though I'd be inclined to store the stock which is drying outdoors and bring
it in for a week before final turning. Keep it out so it won't frost your
A/C coils too rapidly. Control the humidity by container. Most of your
stuff is going to find a home in air conditioned circumstances anyway.

On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 16:17:54 -0400, "George" George@least wrote:


"mac davis" wrote in message
news

Also, the AC lowers the humidity, doesn't it?

Swamp cooler.

Though I'd be inclined to store the stock which is drying outdoors and bring
it in for a week before final turning. Keep it out so it won't frost your
A/C coils too rapidly. Control the humidity by container. Most of your
stuff is going to find a home in air conditioned circumstances anyway.

yeah, but you can store your stock outside where you live, George....

I'm thinking Baja will be as bad or worse for storing wood outdoors..
Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm