I 'Googled' all last evening and although I got lots of hits and read a lot
of good info, I didn't end the evening feeling I had a handle on using the
Kel Centre-Saver system. Does anyone know of a site that shows clear
pictures of the tool in action and a narrative? If it matters, I have the
'large' model to use on a General 26020VS.



I have yet to try to use it. I understand the rest gate and the 'T' handle's
function but I'm unsure how you would advance the blade into the blank to
maintain a desired wall thickness. My intuition tells me that the curvature
of the blade governs the shape of the cut??



I guess you could say I was a bit apprehensive as it is a formidable
looking beast and could probably do the operator (me!) a lot of damage if
improperly handled.


--
Tom in Qualicum Beach, BC

Hi Tom

I don't have the Kelton but for all I have seen and heard, it's going
to be an adventure, there are several tapes and disks out, to show how
to use the Kelton, all the experts say it's easy yet everyone seems to
need help and has problems, funny you never hear that about the Oneway,
must be a reason for it, anyway, Bill Grumbine has a tape/dvd I think
and there are others.

You will have fun, take care
Leo Van Der Loo

If you want to see one in action, Mike Mahoney has a DVD out that shows
it being used. Craft Supplies has it, and Mike has it on his web site.I
hope to have one out later this year. I have a number of posts about it
here about using it.

I have the complete set of inboard coring knives (large, medium, and
small) and for 98% of the cores I take, I use the 2 smallest radius
blades on the small and medium blade sets.

For first attempts, use some softer green wood, not something like
black locust, and don't try anything over about 10 inches in diameter.
The blade should feed with little pressure. The amount of pressure
(push) determines how thick of a shaving you will take off, On a big
bowl you don't want a lot of pressure. Always keep some, but not a lot
pressure on the handle pulling it towards you. This pressure helps the
blade to almost self feed. If you are having to force it, something is
wrong (shavings over the tip after clearing, drift is causing it to
bind, the cut isn;t smooth and the bumps on the core or wall are makine
it bind. A hot blade and or steam is a good indicator of this).As the
blade goes in, it wants to track toward the outside of the bowl. All of
the coring systems do this, but since this isn't on a fixed radius, it
wants to drift more than the others. Pulling on the handle helps to
counter this drift. Make a slip collar to go around the tool post so
that the cutter will be at center height without having to fiddle with
it each time you core. Having the cutter at center height is VERY
important.

If you are ever headed down I-5 to Oregon, look me up, I'm in Eugene
and would love to help. Any more questions, let me know.

robo hippy

Hi Tom

I have been using my KM coring tool for years with good results. I do not
have any video on it yet, although we are hoping to put a segment in on my
next video which we will be filming in March. However, I do have an article
with pictures on my personal website. The URL is in my sig line.

To answer your question now, the curve of the blade does determine the shape
of the cut, but the depth of the cut can be adjusted by the angle of entry
into the blank. In other words, the knife is going to follow a fixed curve,
but that curve can be deep or shallow depending on how you stick it into the
wood.

The tool suffers much in the way of bad press from people who are not using
it correctly. I am big and strong, but I have had little grandmotherly type
ladies using it to good effect as well. In fact, I have a picture of a
friend of mine using it (and she would smack me with it if she thought I was
referring to her as grandmotherly!). She is about 100 lbs, 5 ft and a
little bit, and has carpal tunnel syndrome to boot, but she was coring bowls
just the same. If you send me an email, I will give you the link to the
picture. I don't know if she would want me posting it publicly.

--
Bill

Bill Grumbine
www.wonderfulwood.com commercial
www.enter.net/~ultradad personal

"Tom Storey" wrote in message
news:NRsEf.312054$tl.296869@pd7tw3no...
I 'Googled' all last evening and although I got lots of hits and read a lot
of good info, I didn't end the evening feeling I had a handle on using the
Kel Centre-Saver system. Does anyone know of a site that shows clear
pictures of the tool in action and a narrative? If it matters, I have the
'large' model to use on a General 26020VS.



I have yet to try to use it. I understand the rest gate and the 'T'
handle's function but I'm unsure how you would advance the blade into the
blank to maintain a desired wall thickness. My intuition tells me that the
curvature of the blade governs the shape of the cut??



I guess you could say I was a bit apprehensive as it is a formidable
looking beast and could probably do the operator (me!) a lot of damage if
improperly handled.


--
Tom in Qualicum Beach, BC

"Tom Storey" wrote: (clip)I'm unsure how you would advance the blade into
the blank to maintain a desired wall thickness. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You have identified one of the problems. If you "play it safe," and keep
the wall really thick, you reduce the number of bowls you can core out of a
given blank. If you try to maximize your yield, you risk getting too close
to the bottom, and losing the bowl. Most people find they can handle this
pretty well as they gain experience.

I solved the problem by mounting a laser over the cutting tip, pointing down
at the tip. While I'm working, I can see on the outside of the wood exactly
where my cut is going.

BTW, it is possible to steer the cut a little, because the tool has a wider
cutting edge than the support behind it. Also, if you decide to change the
angle, you can back out and widen the cut for more clearance. You can also
switch to a tool with a different radius.

Now for the "fear factor." The tool is usually used with a huge handle,
which creates the impression that a lot of leverage is needed. If you
always keep the tool properly in contact with its support, NO leverage is
needed. Many of the turners I know use the tool without the handle
attached. In fact, it seems to work better that way.

Bill Grumbine wrote:
However, I do have an article
with pictures on my personal website. The URL is in my sig line.

http://www.enter.net/~ultradad/bowlcoring.html
Very useful Bill. How about some pictures showing how the tips should be
sharpened. I can't help but think that is critical, and there is little
useful information about this on their website.

I see you recommend cutting ON the center line, whereas McNaughton
recommemd on or 'just' below. I have been trying just below to see if
that will stop it bucking and binding. Next time I'll try a little higher.



The tool suffers much in the way of bad press from people who are not using
it correctly.

I think this is one of the shortcomings of the tool - the lack of
instruction that comes with it, or on their website,
http://www.kelton.co.nz/cenuse.html.
Wot, no pictures?

It's a pretty sad company that relies on third parties to give
instructions in use.

Maybe I should cut a partly cored bowl in half to understand what is
going on in there


--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com - a blog for my customers
http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com/TheToolrest/ - a blog for woodturners

Derek,
Cutting below center will cause a lot of problems, especially as you
get closer to the center. You have a vertical blade in a circular
kerf/hole. As you get closer to the center, pressure on the blade, and
pressure on the support (which will flex a bit) the tip will get more
below center as it goes in. I find a lot of the time that I am
supporting the tool, instead of using the tool support to keep the
cutter at center. If you have a catch below center, it will bind and
dig in worse, just like when turning a bowl if you work below the
center.
robo hippy

Hi Derek

I guess the question becomes, how far is 'just'? I suspect that it could be
measured in fractions of millimeters (since the tool comes from down under).
I find that my tool will sometimes get below center as I am coring if the
tool rest slips a bit, and I have to readjust it. But there is a very small
margin of error allowed. As long as the tool is supported by the top of the
gate, bucking will not be an issue. Once it starts to get below center,
that is where the binding manifests itself.

--
Bill

Bill Grumbine
www.wonderfulwood.com
www.enter.net/~ultradad

"Derek Andrews" wrote in message
...
Bill Grumbine wrote:
However, I do have an article with pictures on my personal website. The
URL is in my sig line.

http://www.enter.net/~ultradad/bowlcoring.html
Very useful Bill. How about some pictures showing how the tips should be
sharpened. I can't help but think that is critical, and there is little
useful information about this on their website.

I see you recommend cutting ON the center line, whereas McNaughton
recommemd on or 'just' below. I have been trying just below to see if that
will stop it bucking and binding. Next time I'll try a little higher.



The tool suffers much in the way of bad press from people who are not
using it correctly.

I think this is one of the shortcomings of the tool - the lack of
instruction that comes with it, or on their website,
http://www.kelton.co.nz/cenuse.html.
Wot, no pictures?

It's a pretty sad company that relies on third parties to give
instructions in use.

Maybe I should cut a partly cored bowl in half to understand what is going
on in there


--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com - a blog for my customers
http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com/TheToolrest/ - a blog for woodturners

Bill,
In order to keep the tool rest from slipping a bit, I made a slip
collar (end grain cocobolo) that goes around the tool post between the
banjo and the bottom of the tool rest This will keep the rest at
proper height and it will not slip. Also there is the added advantage
of making height setting idiot proof. Yes, I know, if you invent
something that is idiot proof, someone else will invent a better idiot.
(I don;t know whose quote that is, but it is great).
robo hippy

I need to do something like that - make a collar that is, not a better
idiot! I made one out of tape for the tool rest when I was centering up my
laser rig a few weeks ago. You can imagine that while it was accurate, it
was not durable. I should probably make a bunch of collars, since each one
is going to be just a little different than the one next to it. Good idea
Robo. Thanks for passing it on.

--
Bill

Bill Grumbine
www.wonderfulwood.com
www.enter.net/~ultradad

"robo hippy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Bill,
In order to keep the tool rest from slipping a bit, I made a slip
collar (end grain cocobolo) that goes around the tool post between the
banjo and the bottom of the tool rest This will keep the rest at
proper height and it will not slip. Also there is the added advantage
of making height setting idiot proof. Yes, I know, if you invent
something that is idiot proof, someone else will invent a better idiot.
(I don;t know whose quote that is, but it is great).
robo hippy

On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:27:23 -0500, "Bill Grumbine"
wrote:

I need to do something like that - make a collar that is, not a better
idiot! I made one out of tape for the tool rest when I was centering up my
laser rig a few weeks ago. You can imagine that while it was accurate, it
was not durable. I should probably make a bunch of collars, since each one
is going to be just a little different than the one next to it. Good idea
Robo. Thanks for passing it on.

yeah, Reed's one of my (other) heros, Bill...

Besides the collar thing, another idea that he passed on was a stick cut to the
distance between the headstock and the end of the chuck jaws, so when you're
holding with a recess, (which I know you don't do often), you can use the stick
in combination with your depth gauge to tell how thick the bottom is...


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Derek Andrews wrote:
Very useful Bill. How about some pictures showing how the tips should be
sharpened. I can't help but think that is critical, and there is little
useful information about this on their website.

On a similar note, I have a set of the original knives. They now grind
them differently so they take a smaller kerf, and cut more efficiently.
Is there anywhere one can send them here in the states to be reground
right? I've never seen the new grind in person, so hesitate to take
them to the grinder myself. Kind of expensive to munge up - not like a
gouge where you have plenty of steel to recover.

I'm sure there are some of you out there that may offer, but I'd prefer
to go w/a Kelton dealer who can stand behind their work - i.e., if they
screw 'em up, they can replace 'em...

....Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska
Registered Linux User No: 307357

Kevin,
I started out with the old profile kinves. They can be ground so that
they have the spear point on them like the newer knives, but there is
one bigger change that they made that you can't compensate for. On the
older profile knives if you look at them, you will notice that the
inside edge of the knife is in the same line as the inside curve of the
blade. There is an ear on the outside edge that sticks out farther
than the blade. The cut needs to be wider that the blade to prevent
binding, and if you have ever tried to do a deep part on a spindle in
only one pass, you know all about that. On the newer blades, if you
look at one, you will notice that the cutting tip sticks out on both
sides on the blade rather than only on one side. It centers on the
cutter, rather than being on one side. This makes a huge difference on
the tracking ability of the cut. I would guess that by now you have
noticed how as the cut progresses, the blade wants to track to the
outside rather than stay on the line you are trying to cut. All of the
coring systems with curved blades do this to some extent. The straight
blades aren't as prone to do this. With the new profile blades, you can
actually correct some on the inside of the cut, while with the old
blades, this was impossible without starting a whole new cut. The new
profile does not take a smaller cut than the old blades. The cutter on
the medium set is about 3/8 inch wide. With the spear point, this makes
for about a 1/2 inch wide shaving. With the old knives, I experimented
with bevel to the inside, bevel to the outside which is how they come,
and square. I haven't been able to grind concave. On the newer set, I
tried the spear point, and convex. None of these made any difference on
the tracking ability of the blade as you cut. I grind all of my blades
square now. This does make for a smaller shaving, and a bit less
pressure on the blade as you cut. My recomendation, especially after
converting, would be to buy the new profile blades as they are easier
to manage. Mike Mahoney uses the spear point very well, so changing the
profile may or may not work for you. It isn't recomended by the
manufacturer, but in my quest to make the tool work for me, I just
couldn't resist tinkering. I think that there is a bit of that in all
of us. The only other thing that I did different, was to lock the
gate/fingers in place, and not let them move while I core. Again, this
may or may not work for you.
robo hippy

Sorry I missed part of your question in my last response Derek. I have the
old style knives, and actually prefer them, although the time is going to
come when I need to replace them and start using the new. I just touch them
to the grinder and they cut very well for me.

--
Bill

Bill Grumbine
www.wonderfulwood.com
www.enter.net/~ultradad
"Derek Andrews" wrote in message
...
Bill Grumbine wrote:
However, I do have an article with pictures on my personal website. The
URL is in my sig line.

http://www.enter.net/~ultradad/bowlcoring.html
Very useful Bill. How about some pictures showing how the tips should be
sharpened. I can't help but think that is critical, and there is little
useful information about this on their website.

I see you recommend cutting ON the center line, whereas McNaughton
recommemd on or 'just' below. I have been trying just below to see if that
will stop it bucking and binding. Next time I'll try a little higher.



The tool suffers much in the way of bad press from people who are not
using it correctly.

I think this is one of the shortcomings of the tool - the lack of
instruction that comes with it, or on their website,
http://www.kelton.co.nz/cenuse.html.
Wot, no pictures?

It's a pretty sad company that relies on third parties to give
instructions in use.

Maybe I should cut a partly cored bowl in half to understand what is going
on in there


--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com - a blog for my customers
http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com/TheToolrest/ - a blog for woodturners