With the sudden enthusiasm of a brainstorm I've been doing a LOT of research
on woodturning in the past two weeks. My thought was that I would do
one-of-a-kind bowls; get to travel in my 29' fifth wheel toybox with our
Harleys to attend crafts shows; and pick up some cash to supplement my
Social Security while doing work with wood (one of God's wonders).

So my wife and I attended a very large and impressive local association
meeting (and joined). Their exhibit gallery had work that was just
heartwarming to a woodloving person and intimidating to a newbie. They had a
renowned husband/wife team doing demonstrations and that was encouraging.
The folks were warm, friendly and the meeting was handled very well.

Here's where I'm politically incorrect without intent to hurt anyone's
feelings. I noticed that that maybe 95% had as much gray hair as I which is
all.

Why would that be?
The cost of equipment?
The labor time?
The work made me feel my idea of making some money might never even recover
the cost of investment (maybe $10,000 for all) much less the costs of
selling at craft fairs.
Is this just retiree hobby territory for 98% of us? Sorta like golf, with
just a rare few making money?

Tom Nie
PS This is my first post - ever! I feel like a virgin.

"Tom Nie" wrote in message
...
Here's where I'm politically incorrect without intent to hurt anyone's
feelings. I noticed that that maybe 95% had as much gray hair as I which
is all.

Why would that be?
The cost of equipment?
The labor time?
The work made me feel my idea of making some money might never even
recover the cost of investment (maybe $10,000 for all) much less the costs
of selling at craft fairs.
Is this just retiree hobby territory for 98% of us? Sorta like golf, with
just a rare few making money?


Well, yuppies outearn even geezers, but those of a certain maturity are more
likely to have been tinkerers and explorers of the manual arts than the
younger set. Some even had the good fortune to receive some training and to
develop an appreciation for the products of their own handiwork in school.

If your motivation is money, you tend to go where the most money can be had
with the least effort. Unfortunately, there are a lot of lawyers and
politicians out there already. Would that we could _un_employ a few more!

If your motivation is self-satisfaction, and you have the survival money
earning interest in the bank, you see things like time as something to be
employed in the pursuit of other objectives. With turning, it's certainly
possible to pay for your equipment with sales, but you have to either cater
to the market you're in, or seek a market for what you like to do best.

Moreover, as Aesop has it, old birds with white hair tend to hang with other
old birds of similar plumage....

Hi Tom,

Your last paragraph probably summed up the economics of the craft. It may
even be a bit optimistic. But, who is to say that you can't work your way
into that elite 2%?

Moving up the page. $10,000 is a hefty investment for a beginner. And you
are likely right again. To recoup $10,000 you are going to have to sell of a
bunch of widgets.

Your assertion that wood turners are a warm and friendly group is also right
on the money. That is, to some of us, a primary reason we turn. Being a bit
long in the tooth myself, and a member of that sea of white hair, has
afforded me the opportunity to have checked out a number of hobbies. These
are some of the things that has kept me spinning wood.

1. The beauty of the wood.
2. The thrill of creativity.
3. The camaraderie with like minded souls.
4. The chance to sell enough "Genuine, one of a kind, hand crafted
treasures" to pay for the hobby.
5. The opportunity to pass on some of that excitement to other fledgling
turners.

Welcome aboard.

Ron Robinson
East Texas

The cost of equipment?
The labor time?
The work made me feel my idea of making some money might never even
recover the cost of investment (maybe $10,000 for all) much less the
costs of selling at craft fairs.
Is this just retiree hobby territory for 98% of us? Sorta like golf, with
just a rare few making money?

George:
This sounds more like a money-making venture than hobby or passion. If you
are not getting into turning because you enjoy it, chances are you are not
going to do all that well. It takes time to develop the skill. Most
importantly it takes a certain amount of imagination - the ability to see an
end product in a piece of raw wood; and then make it happen - to be
successful. I think this is what drives a lot of woodworkers and turners.

Your estimate of a $10,000 investment is high - way high. My turning
experience is part of an overall woodworking hobby. I have a pretty decent
garage workshop and I doubt if my total equipment investment is much more
than that. I started turning a couple of years ago with a Jet 1442. I
started with the lathe, a decent set of tools, a small nova chuck, a new
face shield (most important of all) and odds-and-ends. I doubt if my total
investment was much more than $1,000 to 1,100. Yes you will have to buy a
few more tools to prepare your wood but a good band saw, entry level (used)
table saw, drill press and more odds-and-ends should get you started. By
the way, the Jet 1442 is a good machine but there are many less expensive.
Also, it would not travel well in our 31' 5th wheel.

RonB

OOPs - I noticed the ......... when I hit the mouse buttton. George was
responding to a previous message. Oh-well, whoever - it still takes a
certain amount of desire and passion to be successful.

It doesn't require grey hair but it does appear to be common.

George:
This sounds more like a money-making venture than hobby or passion. If
you are not getting into turning because you enjoy it, chances are you are
not going to do all that well. It takes time to develop the skill. Most
importantly it takes a certain amount of imagination - the ability to see
an end product in a piece of raw wood; and then make it happen - to be
successful. I think this is what drives a lot of woodworkers and turners.

Your estimate of a $10,000 investment is high - way high. My turning
experience is part of an overall woodworking hobby. I have a pretty
decent garage workshop and I doubt if my total equipment investment is
much more than that. I started turning a couple of years ago with a Jet
1442. I started with the lathe, a decent set of tools, a small nova chuck,
a new face shield (most important of all) and odds-and-ends. I doubt if
my total investment was much more than $1,000 to 1,100. Yes you will have
to buy a few more tools to prepare your wood but a good band saw, entry
level (used) table saw, drill press and more odds-and-ends should get you
started. By the way, the Jet 1442 is a good machine but there are many
less expensive. Also, it would not travel well in our 31' 5th wheel.

RonB

Hello Tom,

Out of the many people turning wood, only a few are making a living from it.
Most of those, who do make a living turning wood, do so by doing production
turning; i.e., doing large quantities of the same thing, say salad bowls and
sell their output wholesale. Another group that can survive, do production work
for archetectural purposes or parts for furniture.

Richard Raffan of Australia is one woodturner who makes a living from his
turning. He said that to make a living turning wood, you need to have a partner
with a full time job. Richard made it on his own, but the trip wasn't easy.

When I retired in 1993, I had dreams, like you, of supplementing my retirement
income by selling my turnings. I did this for about four years, mostly to craft
fairs with a bit sold through shops and galleries. I did make some money to
suppliment my retirement income. However, I finally did an analysis of my costs,
my labor, and my income from it. In the final analysis, I was making about 25
cents per hour for all of my efforts. I did have fun doing it, however, most of
the time.

I decided at that point, that I could make more money writing about woodturning
than I could doing it. I started More Woodturning and probably still make about
25 cents per hour, but there are lots of perks. I've written three books and
have written a monthly column for Woodturning magazine in the UK for over six
years. I still turn wood and have a shop full of equipment, but I turn for
enjoyment and to have something to write about.

Most of those nice people you met also turn for the pleasure of it and
accumulate tools as money becomes available. They turn some beautiful pieces and
many of them probably sell some of their work. But mostly they turn for the fun
of it, not expecting to make money. I don't believe, however, you will ever make
much of a living selling at craft fairs.

Welcome to woodturnining. Set up a shop and start making shavings, but don't
expect to get rich.

Fred Holder
http://www.fholder.com

In article , Tom Nie says...

With the sudden enthusiasm of a brainstorm I've been doing a LOT of research
on woodturning in the past two weeks. My thought was that I would do
one-of-a-kind bowls; get to travel in my 29' fifth wheel toybox with our
Harleys to attend crafts shows; and pick up some cash to supplement my
Social Security while doing work with wood (one of God's wonders).

So my wife and I attended a very large and impressive local association
meeting (and joined). Their exhibit gallery had work that was just
heartwarming to a woodloving person and intimidating to a newbie. They had a
renowned husband/wife team doing demonstrations and that was encouraging.
The folks were warm, friendly and the meeting was handled very well.



Here's where I'm politically incorrect without intent to hurt anyone's
feelings. I noticed that that maybe 95% had as much gray hair as I which is
all.

Why would that be?
The cost of equipment?
The labor time?
The work made me feel my idea of making some money might never even recover
the cost of investment (maybe $10,000 for all) much less the costs of
selling at craft fairs.
Is this just retiree hobby territory for 98% of us? Sorta like golf, with
just a rare few making money?

Tom Nie
PS This is my first post - ever! I feel like a virgin.

Tom

I am one with a few less years on me and no gray hairs.

I am not of the tinkerer class and may be accused of being a reformed
yuppie - but please be assured that I am in it for more than the money.

I am considering all the reasons why I do this and have realized that I
could fill a volume of pages writing on why I turn wood - the last reason is
the money - not because there is none to be had, but because that is just a
nicety of the whole experience!

Welcome aboard!

Ray

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:33:13 -0400, "Tom Nie" wrote:

With the sudden enthusiasm of a brainstorm I've been doing a LOT of research
on woodturning in the past two weeks. My thought was that I would do
one-of-a-kind bowls; get to travel in my 29' fifth wheel toybox with our
Harleys to attend crafts shows; and pick up some cash to supplement my
Social Security while doing work with wood (one of God's wonders).

So my wife and I attended a very large and impressive local association
meeting (and joined). Their exhibit gallery had work that was just
heartwarming to a woodloving person and intimidating to a newbie. They had a
renowned husband/wife team doing demonstrations and that was encouraging.
The folks were warm, friendly and the meeting was handled very well.

Here's where I'm politically incorrect without intent to hurt anyone's
feelings. I noticed that that maybe 95% had as much gray hair as I which is
all.

Why would that be?
The cost of equipment?
The labor time?
The work made me feel my idea of making some money might never even recover
the cost of investment (maybe $10,000 for all) much less the costs of
selling at craft fairs.
Is this just retiree hobby territory for 98% of us? Sorta like golf, with
just a rare few making money?

Tom Nie
PS This is my first post - ever! I feel like a virgin.

In my case, (almost 59 and what's left of my "nohawk" is gray), I came back to
wood working, mainly turning when I had the time and money to do it.. and I
found that I had SO much more patience that I did 20 or so years ago..

I think that life experiences and such change your prospective on things like
wood... you don't mind waiting for a finish to dry, you start enjoying the
wonder of the drying process instead of trying to speed it up, you take the
extra time to get something right instead of taking a shortcut or skipping a
step, etc..

The cost of equipment is anywhere from $250 for a lathe and $50 for a set of
chisels, to as much as you'd like to spend... the more you turn, the more lathe
you want, the more and different chisels, sanding and buffing systems, etc... as
in most hobbies, the list is endless...

I'll point out our plans, since we have a few things in common:
My small lathe, a Jet mini, is in our 28' travel trailer and will be used at r v
parks.. If someone is attracted by my working at the park and buys a bowl or
something, then I've stayed at the park free that weekend...
Same thing with my "main" product, wheel chocks/brakes... I make them for about
$8 each and sell them for $25 each or $45 a set... I sell a set maybe one out of
every 3 stays at a park..

It's NOT going to earn me a living, or even pay for my tools.. (I spent about
$3,000 more so far this year, maybe more) but I'm meeting some nice folks and
saving a few bucks on park fees... for me, it's not cash that matters, it's cash
flow.. *g*
We went to the coast last weekend and met a really cool guy that was in his
mid-80's and used his Jet mini INSIDE his motor home.. lol
He makes pens, which I've never tried, and we ended up trading 4 or 5 really
nice pens for a couple of bud vases... and have another rv friend and great
memory now.. YMMV


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Well said. Your post pretty well covered both topics - woodworking and
RV'ing. The real satisfaction comes for doing things you love and sharing
your experiences with others with similar interests. If you try to make
economic sense of everything you do - you will lead a very sheltered life!

RonB

Side thought. I do sell a few items and give others away. That is just
plain inventory control. Ya' gotta get rid of some of your treasures or add
floorspace.


In my case, (almost 59 and what's left of my "nohawk" is gray), I came
back to
wood working, mainly turning when I had the time and money to do it.. and
I
found that I had SO much more patience that I did 20 or so years ago..

I think that life experiences and such change your prospective on things
like
wood... you don't mind waiting for a finish to dry, you start enjoying the
wonder of the drying process instead of trying to speed it up, you take
the
extra time to get something right instead of taking a shortcut or skipping
a
step, etc..

The cost of equipment is anywhere from $250 for a lathe and $50 for a set
of
chisels, to as much as you'd like to spend... the more you turn, the more
lathe
you want, the more and different chisels, sanding and buffing systems,
etc... as
in most hobbies, the list is endless...

I'll point out our plans, since we have a few things in common:
My small lathe, a Jet mini, is in our 28' travel trailer and will be used
at r v
parks.. If someone is attracted by my working at the park and buys a bowl
or
something, then I've stayed at the park free that weekend...
Same thing with my "main" product, wheel chocks/brakes... I make them for
about
$8 each and sell them for $25 each or $45 a set... I sell a set maybe one
out of
every 3 stays at a park..

It's NOT going to earn me a living, or even pay for my tools.. (I spent
about
$3,000 more so far this year, maybe more) but I'm meeting some nice folks
and
saving a few bucks on park fees... for me, it's not cash that matters,
it's cash
flow.. *g*
We went to the coast last weekend and met a really cool guy that was in
his
mid-80's and used his Jet mini INSIDE his motor home.. lol
He makes pens, which I've never tried, and we ended up trading 4 or 5
really
nice pens for a couple of bud vases... and have another rv friend and
great
memory now.. YMMV


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

mac,

Help me - *g* and lol and YMMV - mean what? I'll probably think the question
dumb when you answer.

I never thought of the lathe in the camper - just the Harleys. They're the
only reason we bought the camper.

And "wheel chocks" - my God, that's creative. Talk about niche marketing!
I'd love to see a picture. if you can.

What I hear you saying is that if I love turning then it'd be cheap compared
to what those Harleys cost me - and I do love riding. My wife thoroughly
enjoyed and was enthused after attending that association meeting. So, like
the bikes, this could be something we both enjoy.

Tom

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:33:13 -0400, "Tom Nie" wrote:

With the sudden enthusiasm of a brainstorm I've been doing a LOT of
research
on woodturning in the past two weeks. My thought was that I would do
one-of-a-kind bowls; get to travel in my 29' fifth wheel toybox with our
Harleys to attend crafts shows; and pick up some cash to supplement my
Social Security while doing work with wood (one of God's wonders).

So my wife and I attended a very large and impressive local association
meeting (and joined). Their exhibit gallery had work that was just
heartwarming to a woodloving person and intimidating to a newbie. They had
a
renowned husband/wife team doing demonstrations and that was encouraging.
The folks were warm, friendly and the meeting was handled very well.

Here's where I'm politically incorrect without intent to hurt anyone's
feelings. I noticed that that maybe 95% had as much gray hair as I which
is
all.

Why would that be?
The cost of equipment?
The labor time?
The work made me feel my idea of making some money might never even
recover
the cost of investment (maybe $10,000 for all) much less the costs of
selling at craft fairs.
Is this just retiree hobby territory for 98% of us? Sorta like golf, with
just a rare few making money?

Tom Nie
PS This is my first post - ever! I feel like a virgin.

In my case, (almost 59 and what's left of my "nohawk" is gray), I came
back to
wood working, mainly turning when I had the time and money to do it.. and
I
found that I had SO much more patience that I did 20 or so years ago..

I think that life experiences and such change your prospective on things
like
wood... you don't mind waiting for a finish to dry, you start enjoying the
wonder of the drying process instead of trying to speed it up, you take
the
extra time to get something right instead of taking a shortcut or skipping
a
step, etc..

The cost of equipment is anywhere from $250 for a lathe and $50 for a set
of
chisels, to as much as you'd like to spend... the more you turn, the more
lathe
you want, the more and different chisels, sanding and buffing systems,
etc... as
in most hobbies, the list is endless...

I'll point out our plans, since we have a few things in common:
My small lathe, a Jet mini, is in our 28' travel trailer and will be used
at r v
parks.. If someone is attracted by my working at the park and buys a bowl
or
something, then I've stayed at the park free that weekend...
Same thing with my "main" product, wheel chocks/brakes... I make them for
about
$8 each and sell them for $25 each or $45 a set... I sell a set maybe one
out of
every 3 stays at a park..

It's NOT going to earn me a living, or even pay for my tools.. (I spent
about
$3,000 more so far this year, maybe more) but I'm meeting some nice folks
and
saving a few bucks on park fees... for me, it's not cash that matters,
it's cash
flow.. *g*
We went to the coast last weekend and met a really cool guy that was in
his
mid-80's and used his Jet mini INSIDE his motor home.. lol
He makes pens, which I've never tried, and we ended up trading 4 or 5
really
nice pens for a couple of bud vases... and have another rv friend and
great
memory now.. YMMV


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Tom Nie wrote:
Help me - *g* and lol and YMMV - mean what? I'll probably think the question
dumb when you answer.
snip
What I hear you saying is that if I love turning then it'd be cheap compared
to what those Harleys cost me - and I do love riding. My wife thoroughly
enjoyed and was enthused after attending that association meeting. So, like
the bikes, this could be something we both enjoy.

I'm not Mac but the answers a
Grin, laugh out loud, and your milage may vary.
Turning is way cheaper than scoots unless you're going to spend as much
as you can rather than just get what you want/need. You *can* get away
even cheaper than what Mac said, but I wouldn't recommend it. I would
recommend getting a lathe with a decent swingover, or you'll be severly
limited in the size of the bowls that you can make. Remember, free wood
is good wood. I think the reason to turn is not just the enjoyment, but
also to torture friends and family with all the bowls and widgets while
waiting to see how much they can take without asking you to stop. %-)

Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use: daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
PATINA
http://www.patinatools.org

I never thought of the lathe in the camper - just the Harleys. They're
the
only reason we bought the camper.

We have seen two campground turners during our limited RV travels. One each
mini and midi-sized machines. One (Midi) was at the War Eagle Festival near
Rogers, Arkansas. This fellow stored his lathe in the "basement" of his
fifth wheel and had a pretty innovative way of sliding it out onto a pretty
solid folding platform. As I recall the other just worked from a table.

I also read an article about a traveling turner who could attach his machine
to the bumper of his motor home. With jacks down, that's a pretty solid base
(if his wife isn't too heavy).

You can take it with you (within reason).

Why would that be?
The cost of equipment?
The labor time?
The work made me feel my idea of making some money might never even recover
the cost of investment (maybe $10,000 for all) much less the costs of
selling at craft fairs.
Is this just retiree hobby territory for 98% of us? Sorta like golf, with
just a rare few making money?

Tom Nie
PS This is my first post - ever! I feel like a virgin.
******************************

Tom,

I think the percentage is more like 70% of all turners are retired or have
day jobs. You'd have to attend an AAW Symposium to get a better over-all
view and opinions. There are a lot of turners who make their living with
the lathe, me included. It's not the easiest way to make money but it's
the most fun. I don't do shows anymore but rather sell through
shops/galleries. The better shows where you will sell a LOT generally cost
$500(+) entry fee and you must have a booth to their specifications (usually
must have 3 sides and decorated for the season or theme of the show).

We will spend $10,000 but we will get downright giddy when we sell your
first bowl for $30! You can't live long enough to recover your investment
because you will need a better bowl gouge, then a better sharpening jig, an
extra chuck or two, boxes of sandpaper (you'll buy it by the pound!) more
finishes, etc. etc. So just buckle up and be ready for one great ride!

As to the age thing, well, retired people have more time and more money so
you see more of them at meetings, demonstrations and shows. Aside from the
long-time turners like John Jordan, Allan Batty, Stuart Mortimer, David
Ellsworth, and a few others, the majority of professional turners are
actually between 30 - 50 years of age.

And WELCOME.

Ruth
www.torne-lignum.com

George wrote:

/SNIP/
Moreover, as Aesop has it, old birds with white hair tend to hang with other
old birds of similar plumage....

Heck I'm just trying to hang on to some of my hair G

Leo Van Der Loo wrote:


George wrote:

/SNIP/ Moreover, as Aesop has it, old birds with white hair tend to
hang with other old birds of similar plumage....
Heck I'm just trying to hang on to some of my hair G


I've still got most of mine, but it's migrated from the top of my head
to my ears and nose. Go figure...

....Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska

Yep and the eyebrows not to forget LOL

Kevin Miller wrote:
Leo Van Der Loo wrote:



George wrote:

/SNIP/ Moreover, as Aesop has it, old birds with white hair tend to
hang with other old birds of similar plumage....

Heck I'm just trying to hang on to some of my hair G


I've still got most of mine, but it's migrated from the top of my head
to my ears and nose. Go figure...

...Kevin

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:33:13 -0400, "Tom Nie"
wrote:

Here's where I'm politically incorrect without intent to hurt anyone's
feelings. I noticed that that maybe 95% had as much gray hair as I which is
all.

I'll toss in a young guy's opinion (I'm 26, though I'm getting gray
already, so maybe it's just the sawdust that does it )

Why would that be?

When talking with a lot of others my own age, it seems that there are
several reasons why most of the folks who own lathes or build
furniture are older. The three most common are a) that's what my
grandpa does (in other words, it's evidently not *cool* if an older
person can do something) b) My kids break everything anyways and c)
Tools are too expensive. Not saying I agree with any of that
(obviously), but that's what I hear most often.

The cost of equipment?
The labor time?

Time is a factor, too. At least in the area where I live, a lot of
people have kids when they are in their late teens or early 20's, and
go directly to work in trade or factory jobs right out of high school.
The only way for a young guy to make a decent wage in a factory is to
put in a lot of overtime, unless they have a particularly generous
employer. Add lots of manditory overtime to a couple of kids at home,
and most people won't pursue hobbies, at least until the kids are out
of the house.

Even if they do pursue something like woodworking, it takes a while to
learn, and a lot of people get discouraged easily- my generation has
been brought up to want things *right now*; just look at all the
quick-change makeover shows (construction, cars, appearance, you name
it) on the cable channels and you can see that at work. People start
to expect that if the fruity guy, the girl with large... umm... eyes,
and the extreme-sports fella with an accent can whip an entire
neighborhood into shape in an hour and a half with some MDF and a
caulk gun, they should be able to as well. Of course, reality usually
interferes with notions like that when it comes time to put them into
practice, and then people feel betrayed and give up without really
having given it a good try.

The work made me feel my idea of making some money might never even recover
the cost of investment (maybe $10,000 for all) much less the costs of
selling at craft fairs.
Is this just retiree hobby territory for 98% of us? Sorta like golf, with
just a rare few making money?

I don't make any money from turning, but I have been selling some
furniture, and am currently trying to use that furniture making
experience to get out of steel work and into a good trim carpentry
position. I figure it crosses over a lot, and it's almost as good as
woodworking at home.

Another thought for you- and it may not be up your alley at all, but
if you've got some money to invest, and are looking to make your
investment back in spades, why not look into some of the millwork
tools that Grizzly has got? Here's what I've come up with looking at
it- the really classy millworks in my area sells 3" unfinished crown
molding for $2.19 or more a lineal foot. You can get it in red oak,
white maple, paint-grade maple, cherry, and douglas fir (not a huge
selection, if you ask me!) The exact same place sells 4/4 S3S lumber
in widths ranging from 3" up to 15" and better by the board foot. The
lumber comes in about 20 different species ranging from basswood to
purpleheart, including some that I believe would look really sharp as
crown and casings, like hickory, ash and butternut (though your tastes
may vary)

But let's stick with what is common for an example- a 4/4 x 9.375" x
8' piece of figured soft maple would run (at 2.30/bf) about $14.50.
From that plank of maple, you could get 24 lineal feet of 3" crown by
doing three rip cuts with one fence setup and three passes through the
molder (figure 45 minutes for setup and operation, tops), and turn
around and sell that for $52.50 (at their prices)- and you could offer
it in any species you can find, many species are less expensive than
figured maple, and they're just not milled for sale in the regular
market without paying a huge premium for the *custom* order. You can
get a 7" shopfox planer/molder with a power feed from Grizzly for
about $1000 with shipping
(http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...emnumber=G0552), a couple
of sets of knives in different profiles, and you're ready to go
(assuming you've already got a table saw)

Figure at a minium, a person would want enough crown molding to finish
one room (and probably casings and base shoe to match it, which would
beef up the order even more)- One 20" x 15" room would need 72
lineal feet of molding (figuring in a little bit extra for joint
waste,) and you're looking at a profit of about $114 for *maybe* an
hour or two of work. (profit goes up a lot if you buy lumber wet from
the sawmill, air dry it or stick it in a home-built solar kiln, and
prep it yourself, of course, though there's a higher initial
investment there) Wouldn't have to make too many sales to pay that
sucker off- which means you don't have to make a full-time job of
finding customers to justify the initial investment, and then it's
(almost) pure profit from there on, at whatever level you care to work
at. Then after you've put in a little time at making your spending
cash, you can get back to your turning for fun guilt-free!

I know it's a little OT for the turning group, but the subject of
making money from woodworking to suppliment retirement income comes up
a lot on usenet, so I figured I'd share the idea. I know I'm looking
at it as a possible way to really make a good side income by selling
it installed.

Might even make enough to support a bad woodturning habit with
something like that...

I love your thought processes.
And there's a lot, I suspect, to your conclusions.

I worked long hours and ate a lot of $.99 hamburgers to get here. Lower
management positions with two of the world's largest - GM & SIEMENS - and I
sit with only Social Security because of division closings before vested.
Times changed during my career - no more cradle to grave jobs.

Any additional long hours will be spent on what I love - wife, grandkids,
us on our Harleys, sitting on my porch in the woods - and whatever I can
come up with to pick up some additional cash.

At first glance your idea of molding sounds like too much dedication. And
around here the $1 -2million homes use MDF crown, etc. so I question the
volume of the market. I do know from building this house that if you buy
molding from Lowes or Home Depot the cost is hugely higher than from a
professional building center. Not that way on lumber or OSB, etc. Always
wondered why.

More importantly, I've started down this woodturning path because I LOVE the
look and feel of finished wood - turned or otherwise. No other idea has
moved my heart with such intensity (I've just about been glued to this
computer doing homework). Nature, natural things, are my path to the
Spiritual.

I wish you the best in your plans. The only time I REALLY excelled was when
I did something I loved versus what made me money.

Have a great day
TomNie

"Prometheus" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:33:13 -0400, "Tom Nie"
wrote:

Here's where I'm politically incorrect without intent to hurt anyone's
feelings. I noticed that that maybe 95% had as much gray hair as I which
is
all.

I'll toss in a young guy's opinion (I'm 26, though I'm getting gray
already, so maybe it's just the sawdust that does it )

Why would that be?

When talking with a lot of others my own age, it seems that there are
several reasons why most of the folks who own lathes or build
furniture are older. The three most common are a) that's what my
grandpa does (in other words, it's evidently not *cool* if an older
person can do something) b) My kids break everything anyways and c)
Tools are too expensive. Not saying I agree with any of that
(obviously), but that's what I hear most often.

The cost of equipment?
The labor time?

Time is a factor, too. At least in the area where I live, a lot of
people have kids when they are in their late teens or early 20's, and
go directly to work in trade or factory jobs right out of high school.
The only way for a young guy to make a decent wage in a factory is to
put in a lot of overtime, unless they have a particularly generous
employer. Add lots of manditory overtime to a couple of kids at home,
and most people won't pursue hobbies, at least until the kids are out
of the house.

Even if they do pursue something like woodworking, it takes a while to
learn, and a lot of people get discouraged easily- my generation has
been brought up to want things *right now*; just look at all the
quick-change makeover shows (construction, cars, appearance, you name
it) on the cable channels and you can see that at work. People start
to expect that if the fruity guy, the girl with large... umm... eyes,
and the extreme-sports fella with an accent can whip an entire
neighborhood into shape in an hour and a half with some MDF and a
caulk gun, they should be able to as well. Of course, reality usually
interferes with notions like that when it comes time to put them into
practice, and then people feel betrayed and give up without really
having given it a good try.

The work made me feel my idea of making some money might never even
recover
the cost of investment (maybe $10,000 for all) much less the costs of
selling at craft fairs.
Is this just retiree hobby territory for 98% of us? Sorta like golf, with
just a rare few making money?

I don't make any money from turning, but I have been selling some
furniture, and am currently trying to use that furniture making
experience to get out of steel work and into a good trim carpentry
position. I figure it crosses over a lot, and it's almost as good as
woodworking at home.

Another thought for you- and it may not be up your alley at all, but
if you've got some money to invest, and are looking to make your
investment back in spades, why not look into some of the millwork
tools that Grizzly has got? Here's what I've come up with looking at
it- the really classy millworks in my area sells 3" unfinished crown
molding for $2.19 or more a lineal foot. You can get it in red oak,
white maple, paint-grade maple, cherry, and douglas fir (not a huge
selection, if you ask me!) The exact same place sells 4/4 S3S lumber
in widths ranging from 3" up to 15" and better by the board foot. The
lumber comes in about 20 different species ranging from basswood to
purpleheart, including some that I believe would look really sharp as
crown and casings, like hickory, ash and butternut (though your tastes
may vary)

But let's stick with what is common for an example- a 4/4 x 9.375" x
8' piece of figured soft maple would run (at 2.30/bf) about $14.50.
From that plank of maple, you could get 24 lineal feet of 3" crown by
doing three rip cuts with one fence setup and three passes through the
molder (figure 45 minutes for setup and operation, tops), and turn
around and sell that for $52.50 (at their prices)- and you could offer
it in any species you can find, many species are less expensive than
figured maple, and they're just not milled for sale in the regular
market without paying a huge premium for the *custom* order. You can
get a 7" shopfox planer/molder with a power feed from Grizzly for
about $1000 with shipping
(http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...emnumber=G0552), a couple
of sets of knives in different profiles, and you're ready to go
(assuming you've already got a table saw)

Figure at a minium, a person would want enough crown molding to finish
one room (and probably casings and base shoe to match it, which would
beef up the order even more)- One 20" x 15" room would need 72
lineal feet of molding (figuring in a little bit extra for joint
waste,) and you're looking at a profit of about $114 for *maybe* an
hour or two of work. (profit goes up a lot if you buy lumber wet from
the sawmill, air dry it or stick it in a home-built solar kiln, and
prep it yourself, of course, though there's a higher initial
investment there) Wouldn't have to make too many sales to pay that
sucker off- which means you don't have to make a full-time job of
finding customers to justify the initial investment, and then it's
(almost) pure profit from there on, at whatever level you care to work
at. Then after you've put in a little time at making your spending
cash, you can get back to your turning for fun guilt-free!

I know it's a little OT for the turning group, but the subject of
making money from woodworking to suppliment retirement income comes up
a lot on usenet, so I figured I'd share the idea. I know I'm looking
at it as a possible way to really make a good side income by selling
it installed.

Might even make enough to support a bad woodturning habit with
something like that...

Well, I'm somewhere between Prometheus and Tom, age-wise, though I began
getting white hairs at 26 (no gray). I started turning at 12, basically
when I first got access to a lathe. Have always loved turning a rough
piece of wood most people would burn into a finely finished object. No
support group anywhere near home then, nothing too close to where I live
now, either.

I did a small amount of work for pay though high school, but I've never
really gone into moneymaking whole-hog - I also rarely go to meetings -
none are close enough to bother, generally speaking. Last
turning-specific thing I went to was 6-7 years ago and a 3 hour drive
one-way for a 3-4 hour symposium. If I can't get whatever support I want
here, I don't get it, generally speaking, but I manage pretty well,
since I've been on my own with turning since the beginning. I know a guy
a decade or so my junior in the area who also turns a bit, but he's got
no time at all...

As for the moneymaking end of things, I've watched too many people ruin
something they enjoy by going into business in a way that ruins their
enjoyment to jump in un-prepared. That said, I'm working on my new shop
building, and one of the roles of the new shop is to provide enough room
for my 5 lathes and other stuff, and perhaps make some money at things I
like doing - but if it comes to a choice between having fun with it and
making money at it, I'd rather have a hobby I enjoy and don't make money
at than a job doing something I used to enjoy but no longer do...

The short form: Woodturning is a lot cheaper (and more fun) than
phsychiatry.

As for that molding idea of Prometheus', there are a few missed details
aside from the main one, which is that marketing [finding people to buy
your product] is at least 50% of the work in doing "woodwork" as a
business, and is completely missing from his analysis. One of the many
routes to not-fun, unless you happen to like that sort of thing.

There's also sharpening cutters, the fact that boards and boards which
will machine into acceptable moulding are not the same thing, and even
some boards which you think will machine into acceptable moulding will
not (especially if your cutters are dull), and will be waste, which the
customer will not buy, but you will have to pay for. That's just barely
scratching the surface, but illustrates a small amount of what you need
to consider when you look at opening up a new business. Try making some
hickory, ash or purpleheart moulding - you might discover why it's not
that common...

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:24:01 GMT, Ecnerwal
wrote:


As for that molding idea of Prometheus', there are a few missed details
aside from the main one, which is that marketing [finding people to buy
your product] is at least 50% of the work in doing "woodwork" as a
business, and is completely missing from his analysis. One of the many
routes to not-fun, unless you happen to like that sort of thing.

Well, not completely missing, just not really followed heavily. I was
making the point that there's some money to made there *without*
worrying about marketing that much. Something like a $1000 molder
wouldn't hold up to a huge-volume millworks anyhow- a tool on that
scale merits something on the order of a flyer on the bulletin board
at a laundrymat, or a working relationship with one small contractor!
I guess perhaps I've just been lucky, but I've built one modest
contracting job (I call it a job, and not a company because it was
only me, and no tax ID or business name) and am in the process of
doing it again. In both cases, I found one project, and ended up with
more free word of mouth advertising than I even really wanted.

There's also sharpening cutters, the fact that boards and boards which
will machine into acceptable moulding are not the same thing, and even
some boards which you think will machine into acceptable moulding will
not (especially if your cutters are dull), and will be waste, which the
customer will not buy, but you will have to pay for. That's just barely
scratching the surface, but illustrates a small amount of what you need
to consider when you look at opening up a new business. Try making some
hickory, ash or purpleheart moulding - you might discover why it's not
that common...

All valid points- and the reason why I didn't suggest quitting the day
job and trying to put the local millworks out of business. When you
do something like this on a small scale, it's not that tough to grab a
board or two of each species, give them each a quick run through to
test them, and *then* offer them for sale. Most things are not as
difficult as you might think, it's just a matter of being aware of
what you are and are not capable of- I'd never try and bid for a
multi-million dollar shopping mall or the like, because it is just too
big- same thing with this, you just have to know when and how to say
no.

On the small scale, it's a lot more possible to reclaim scrap by hand
sanding tearout or using it for a personal project- 30 or 40 bf can be
pretty easy to swallow, but 5000 is a different story. The real
problem that a lot of folks run into isn't materials and tooling- it's
hiring help on without enough orders because they want the company to
grow like a weed, and then trying to make payroll whether the company
turned a profit or not- can't be in a hurry about that sort of thing,
unless you're a very lucky gambler!

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:45:32 -0400, "Tom Nie" wrote:

mac,

Help me - *g* and lol and YMMV - mean what? I'll probably think the question
dumb when you answer.
no dumb questions in the world, Tom.. just those that are to dumb to ask when
they don't know..
*g* grin
*eg* evil grin
lol laugh out loud
YMMV Your Milage May Vary

I never thought of the lathe in the camper - just the Harleys. They're the
only reason we bought the camper.

And "wheel chocks" - my God, that's creative. Talk about niche marketing!
I'd love to see a picture. if you can.

What I hear you saying is that if I love turning then it'd be cheap compared
to what those Harleys cost me - and I do love riding. My wife thoroughly
enjoyed and was enthused after attending that association meeting. So, like
the bikes, this could be something we both enjoy.

Tom

Exactly, Tom.. and as plus, my turning got my wife interested in wood burning
(a $30 hobby) and then pyrography, (same habit, unlimited spending potential),
to decorate my turnings...
Since then, she's branched out into pictures of folks, decorated name plates to
hang on your rv when you're in a park, etc...



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:12:18 -0500, "RonB" wrote:


I never thought of the lathe in the camper - just the Harleys. They're
the
only reason we bought the camper.

We have seen two campground turners during our limited RV travels. One each
mini and midi-sized machines. One (Midi) was at the War Eagle Festival near
Rogers, Arkansas. This fellow stored his lathe in the "basement" of his
fifth wheel and had a pretty innovative way of sliding it out onto a pretty
solid folding platform. As I recall the other just worked from a table.

I also read an article about a traveling turner who could attach his machine
to the bumper of his motor home. With jacks down, that's a pretty solid base
(if his wife isn't too heavy).

You can take it with you (within reason).

the guy we met had a motor home with a huge, 2 slide out living room.. that was
the shop/sewing room.. even with pens, it must have made a mess..
I actually carry a shop vac in the truck, because IMO a good camper tries to
leave the site cleaner than it was when you got there..
I do plan on offering shavings to fellow campers for their fires.. (and, of
course, to let them know what I'm up to *g* )


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:41:08 -0400, Leo Van Der Loo
wrote:



George wrote:

/SNIP/
Moreover, as Aesop has it, old birds with white hair tend to hang with other
old birds of similar plumage....

Heck I'm just trying to hang on to some of my hair G

But it looks GOOD on ya, Leo!
(Is that the color AFTER gray?)


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 18:30:33 -0800, Kevin Miller
wrote:

Leo Van Der Loo wrote:


George wrote:

/SNIP/ Moreover, as Aesop has it, old birds with white hair tend to
hang with other old birds of similar plumage....
Heck I'm just trying to hang on to some of my hair G


I've still got most of mine, but it's migrated from the top of my head
to my ears and nose. Go figure...

...Kevin

that's a good thing, Kevin.. it's called "mental floss"...


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:04:16 -0400, "Tom Nie" wrote:

snip
More importantly, I've started down this woodturning path because I LOVE the
look and feel of finished wood - turned or otherwise. No other idea has
moved my heart with such intensity (I've just about been glued to this
computer doing homework). Nature, natural things, are my path to the
Spiritual.

I wish you the best in your plans. The only time I REALLY excelled was when
I did something I loved versus what made me money.

Have a great day
TomNie

Tom.. staying sort of on topic, have you heard the term "workamping"? (work
camping)

Normally, it's being a campground or park host, or maintenance person, sometime
security work in or around the park, for a free site and small salary..

Your posts have me picturing a couple that loves wood, traveling in a fiver with
basic hand and power tools... maybe staying free in turn for a bit of fine
finish here and there, the random small deck or railing, etc.. sort of a
traveling craftsman or, (dare I say) artisan...
You can find someone easily and cheaply to build a fence or unclog a septic
system, but where do you find someone to refinish a few pieces of furniture,
that's willing to make house/rv park calls?
Also, most rv parks are now "resorts" and have small gift shops... might be a
market for turnings and things that have the park name of whatever on them...
We stayed at a park in Avila Beach, CA this month and they had 4 different kinds
of shot glasses with the park name on them.. and of course, I wasn't carrying
any of the small goblets that I love to turn.. damn it! lol


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Mac,
That's creative.
I'm not sure there's much of a small salary or even any at all from the
little homework I've done so far. But that might be a real cool idea for a
summer trip. Out West was my dream trip but I've still got the Smokies and
Blue Ridge Parkway places nearby.

It leads you to go along with a smaller lathe to start so it'd fit in the
camper - versus a Stubby, Oneway, etc. Then get the bigger one if needed
later on. Some of these deep pocket NG folks (LOL) seem to have one for each
kind of work.

Now what are you going to do about this seasoning/drying stuff? I can't see
space for a ton of bowls, goblets, etc. to be drying before the final
turning.

Tom Nie

"mac davis" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:04:16 -0400, "Tom Nie" wrote:

snip
More importantly, I've started down this woodturning path because I LOVE
the
look and feel of finished wood - turned or otherwise. No other idea has
moved my heart with such intensity (I've just about been glued to this
computer doing homework). Nature, natural things, are my path to the
Spiritual.

I wish you the best in your plans. The only time I REALLY excelled was
when
I did something I loved versus what made me money.

Have a great day
TomNie

Tom.. staying sort of on topic, have you heard the term "workamping"?
(work
camping)

Normally, it's being a campground or park host, or maintenance person,
sometime
security work in or around the park, for a free site and small salary..

Your posts have me picturing a couple that loves wood, traveling in a
fiver with
basic hand and power tools... maybe staying free in turn for a bit of fine
finish here and there, the random small deck or railing, etc.. sort of a
traveling craftsman or, (dare I say) artisan...
You can find someone easily and cheaply to build a fence or unclog a
septic
system, but where do you find someone to refinish a few pieces of
furniture,
that's willing to make house/rv park calls?
Also, most rv parks are now "resorts" and have small gift shops... might
be a
market for turnings and things that have the park name of whatever on
them...
We stayed at a park in Avila Beach, CA this month and they had 4 different
kinds
of shot glasses with the park name on them.. and of course, I wasn't
carrying
any of the small goblets that I love to turn.. damn it! lol


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"Tom Nie" wrote in message
...
Mac,
That's creative.
I'm not sure there's much of a small salary or even any at all from the
little homework I've done so far. But that might be a real cool idea for a
summer trip. Out West was my dream trip but I've still got the Smokies and
Blue Ridge Parkway places nearby.
======================

I'll be up that way in about 2 weeks. Want to see how much has changed since
I was up there in '68. Any good turning or crafts places you'd recommend
near Smoky MT Nat'l Park? I know Arrowmont is right there, but it seems like
they're not too active in August.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX.

Tom Nie wrote:

/snip/

I noticed that that maybe 95% had as much gray hair as I which is
all.

Why would that be?
The cost of equipment?
The labor time?
The work made me feel my idea of making some money might never even recover
the cost of investment (maybe $10,000 for all) much less the costs of
selling at craft fairs.
Is this just retiree hobby territory for 98% of us? Sorta like golf, with
just a rare few making money?

Hi Tom

most older men do get gray hair or white or even loose their hair some
or all !!
equipment ?? what equipment are you talking about ??? G

To be a bit more serious here, I think it is usually the case that we
don't have to feed a family, pay the mortgage etc.
and we like wood and working with wood, have the time to do that (more
or less).

The equipment cost varies, if you like spindle turning, like pen turning
, tops yo-yos whistles etc. a small lathe and grinder and a set of small
tools will do, a drill press is nice and a arbor press and belt sander a
nice extra.

If bowl and hollow turning is what's wanted, then a better quality lathe
is needed, and lathe size and weight should go up as turning size goes
up, lathe size does not mean swing over the ways or inches between head
and tail stock, but spindle and bearing size plus the actual lathes
mass, motor and belts size should also increase in line with the
capabilities of the lathe, and the tools become bigger and more costly
to purchase, also the wood for bowls and hollow turning need more outlay
either in money to buy or in tools and time investment, like a chain saw
and bandsaw, pickup truck and or trailer, spare chain and sharpening setup.
Also a grinder and jig to keep your tools sharp, and more sealer and
sand paper and finish and room to store your rough outs.
And then enough buddies to give all those magnificent and breath taking
works of art.
Making money ?? well unless you want to turn pillars and other
architectural turnings like 10 staircase spindles or twenty of those
finials etc. filling time between orders with making so many pens and
scoops and mushrooms etc. you will be lucky to pay for the tools and
incidentals, unless you are some real special turner with a lot of
talent and good ideas.
So is it just a retiree hobby, NO, it is much more in my opinion, you'll
find out, it's addictive

http://homepage.mac.com/l.vanderloo/PhotoAlbum12.html


Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

Hi Mac

Thanks

I think it's a bit like good wine it get better with age up to a point
that is, after that--- don't ask !!

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

mac davis wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:41:08 -0400, Leo Van Der Loo
wrote:



George wrote:


/SNIP/
Moreover, as Aesop has it, old birds with white hair tend to hang with other
old birds of similar plumage....


Heck I'm just trying to hang on to some of my hair G


But it looks GOOD on ya, Leo!
(Is that the color AFTER gray?)


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Ken,
I haven't seen Arrowmount yet.

On the East side you've got the Folk Art Center tight to Asheville and on
the Blue Ridge Parkway. This is a high quality operation with fabulous
variety including museum displays. The Carolina Mountain Woodturners
www.carolinamountainwoodturners.org have monthly meetings third Saturday of
each month from 10am to 4:30pm and include demonstrations by pros. They use
the theater at the Center.

The western mountains are very dramatic and move my heart to its core. The
Appalachians are like old slippers and a recliner by the fireplace.
Roosevelt's public works program built the Blue Ridge Parkway and I wish all
our tax dollars could do as much for people at the time and in the future.
Last year the wife and I rode our Harleys from the start to the finish - 459
miles. Lots of rain from the hurricanes and still it was a fabulous
experience.

Otherwise, I'm such a newbie I can't help.

Tom Nie

"Ken Moon" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Tom Nie" wrote in message
...
Mac,
That's creative.
I'm not sure there's much of a small salary or even any at all from the
little homework I've done so far. But that might be a real cool idea for
a summer trip. Out West was my dream trip but I've still got the Smokies
and Blue Ridge Parkway places nearby.
======================

I'll be up that way in about 2 weeks. Want to see how much has changed
since I was up there in '68. Any good turning or crafts places you'd
recommend near Smoky MT Nat'l Park? I know Arrowmont is right there, but
it seems like they're not too active in August.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX.

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 05:29:27 -0400, Leo Van Der Loo
wrote:

I can identify with that... my wife says that I'm "aged to perfection"...
I'm not sure if that means ready to cook or just short of rotten..

Hi Mac

Thanks

I think it's a bit like good wine it get better with age up to a point
that is, after that--- don't ask !!

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

mac davis wrote:

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 19:41:08 -0400, Leo Van Der Loo
wrote:



George wrote:


/SNIP/
Moreover, as Aesop has it, old birds with white hair tend to hang with other
old birds of similar plumage....


Heck I'm just trying to hang on to some of my hair G


But it looks GOOD on ya, Leo!
(Is that the color AFTER gray?)


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing



mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:58:57 -0400, "Tom Nie" wrote:

Mac,
That's creative.
I'm not sure there's much of a small salary or even any at all from the
little homework I've done so far. But that might be a real cool idea for a
summer trip. Out West was my dream trip but I've still got the Smokies and
Blue Ridge Parkway places nearby.

It leads you to go along with a smaller lathe to start so it'd fit in the
camper - versus a Stubby, Oneway, etc. Then get the bigger one if needed
later on. Some of these deep pocket NG folks (LOL) seem to have one for each
kind of work.

Now what are you going to do about this seasoning/drying stuff? I can't see
space for a ton of bowls, goblets, etc. to be drying before the final
turning.

Tom Nie

Just leave them at each site.. turn or finish 'em on your next visit?


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"Tom Nie" wrote in message
...
Ken,
I haven't seen Arrowmount yet.

On the East side you've got the Folk Art Center tight to Asheville and on
the Blue Ridge Parkway. This is a high quality operation with fabulous
variety including museum displays. The Carolina Mountain Woodturners
www.carolinamountainwoodturners.org have monthly meetings third Saturday
of each month from 10am to 4:30pm and include demonstrations by pros. They
use the theater at the Center.

The western mountains are very dramatic and move my heart to its core. The
Appalachians are like old slippers and a recliner by the fireplace.
Roosevelt's public works program built the Blue Ridge Parkway and I wish
all our tax dollars could do as much for people at the time and in the
future. Last year the wife and I rode our Harleys from the start to the
finish - 459 miles. Lots of rain from the hurricanes and still it was a
fabulous experience.
=====================
Tom,
I knew about the Folk Art Center, and had it on my list. I'll already be
gone before the woodturners meeting is held. :-(
I know what you mean about the mountains. I grew up on Lookout Mountain down
in N. Alabama. Sure do miss them out here in flatland Texas.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX.