"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
raden wrote:

Steve - I'm not totally unknowledgeable when it comes to boilers etc ...

as I said, mine does [provide a decent shower]

Yes, and I'm not unknowledgeable when it comes to showers, what the
British regard as a decent shower wouldn't be acceptable in any other
country.

You've had the experience of every shower in Britain?

I'm sorry I wasn't in when you tried mine, I'd have shown you other uses for
water.

Mary



--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:01:45 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:



An fro you information, when I give an opinion, you had batter take it
seriously.


.. and not fish around presumably?

He still hasn't found his spell-checker ...



--

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Mary Fisher wrote:

Instant, constant hot water is a joy compared with that from a storage
tank.

Well it would be, if one happens to be a dirty Brit who doesn't like
showers. OTOH combis can't provide a decent shower.

Thus speaks a man who only thinks in terms of his own gratification in
showering. There are other uses for hot water ...

Mary

If a man wanted gratification in showering he would buy a combi. This one
is inverted.



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On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:05:23 GMT, fred wrote:

So that makes a maximum heat leakage of 3160/24 = 132W
However that would likely be on a temperture difference of (say) 70C
versus a plausible difference of (say) 40C.
Also the size for the cylinder might account for (say) 40% more than a
1050x450 cylinder.

I allowed 100W in the back of my mind when making the earlier posts.
Seems I was probably a bit generous.

Yeah, I wouldn't be happy leaving a 150W light bulb on 24/7, but with gas
it's 5p a day so not at the level I'd worry about.

For a 'Hydraflow' cylinder, 125L at 60C :

http://www.chaffoteaux.co.uk/pdf/hydraflo_pb.pdf

it quotes 1.9kWh/24h, say 2.25kWh with the boiler at 80% efficiency,
giving 775kWh/yr.

Though up to half of the year the lost heat could be counted towards
normal heating, so coming out at 387kWh year.

Still I wouldn't say it was minimal, as a good fridge runs to about
150kWh/yr and dishwasher as low as 237kWh/yr.

cheers,
Pete.

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Burns-Curtis,
alias Elvis Presley,
alias Adam,
alais John Lennon,
alias IMM,
alias Icky the Firebobby,
alias David Ike,
alias MiniMe,
alias Bernado Guey
alais "Doctor Evil" writes:

You can't have reasoned debates with idiots.

I don't recall that I

snip more drivel

Hmm. Altering quotes and more 'snip drivel'

Wonder who his next ISP will be?

--
*What was the best thing before sliced bread?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Pete C
writes
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 21:05:23 GMT, fred wrote:

For a 'Hydraflow' cylinder, 125L at 60C :

http://www.chaffoteaux.co.uk/pdf/hydraflo_pb.pdf

it quotes 1.9kWh/24h, say 2.25kWh with the boiler at 80% efficiency,
giving 775kWh/yr.

Though up to half of the year the lost heat could be counted towards
normal heating, so coming out at 387kWh year.

Still I wouldn't say it was minimal, as a good fridge runs to about
150kWh/yr and dishwasher as low as 237kWh/yr.

When you factor in the low cost of the gas it becomes less significant. My
electricity costs 5 times that of my gas.
--
fred

In article , Doctor Evil wrote:
Some amateurs need to be told, and in no uncertain terms. You
should read what the know-it-alls think. A quick recovery coil
cylinder can be downsized.

If you are filling a bath, yes. But people here are saying that
the output of a 24kW combi is totally inadequate from which one
might infer that they are looking for the equivalent of twice
this. If I can do the sums, 1kW delivers 858 litre-degrees per
hour. Assume water coming in at 5C and out at 42C, 37C rise so
1kW delivers 23 litres per hour, 48kW 1110 litres/hour or 18.5
litres per minute. Even if you have your 75 litre cylinder at
(say) 65C (which then means that a condensing boiler is being run
below max efficiency) after about 6 minutes your stored hot water
is gone and the maximum delivery will depend on (a) the boiler
output; and (b) the ability of the cylinder coil to transfer the
heat.

So get this shower performance in an average house you either
need a very large cylinder or a grossly oversized (for most
houses) boiler. Unless I'm missing something .....

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

In article ,
fred wrote:
Yeah, I wouldn't be happy leaving a 150W light bulb on 24/7, but with gas
it's 5p a day so not at the level I'd worry about.

Also remember that if the cylinder is within the body of the house, this
heat isn't totally wasted during the times of the year where heating is
needed.

--
*Women like silent men; they think they're listening.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tony Bryer wrote:
Some amateurs need to be told, and in no uncertain terms. You
should read what the know-it-alls think. A quick recovery coil
cylinder can be downsized.

If you are filling a bath, yes. But people here are saying that
the output of a 24kW combi is totally inadequate from which one
might infer that they are looking for the equivalent of twice
this. If I can do the sums, 1kW delivers 858 litre-degrees per
hour. Assume water coming in at 5C and out at 42C, 37C rise so
1kW delivers 23 litres per hour, 48kW 1110 litres/hour or 18.5
litres per minute. Even if you have your 75 litre cylinder at
(say) 65C (which then means that a condensing boiler is being run
below max efficiency) after about 6 minutes your stored hot water
is gone and the maximum delivery will depend on (a) the boiler
output; and (b) the ability of the cylinder coil to transfer the
heat.

So get this shower performance in an average house you either
need a very large cylinder or a grossly oversized (for most
houses) boiler. Unless I'm missing something .....

What you have to remember is John lives in a world where baths are half
the normal size that people would choose, and showers are more than
adequate at dog pee flow and temperature. He also lives in a world where
better than 100% efficiency is the norm, and sees no contradiction in that
term.

If you look further, he always quotes maker's advertising as backup to his
views. Others measure their usage and quote from experience.

--
*If your feet smell and your nose runs, you're built upside down.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Burns-Curtis,
alias Elvis Presley,
alias Adam,
alais John Lennon,
alias IMM,
alias Icky the Firebobby,
alias David Ike,
alias MiniMe,
alias Bernado Guey
alais "Doctor Evil" writes:

You can't have reasoned debates with idiots.

I don't recall that I

snip more drivel

Hmm.

.....he retorted...well I snipped it as it was as usual total inane babble.
.... Sad but true...


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"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Doctor Evil wrote:

Some amateurs need to be told, and in no uncertain terms. You
should read what the know-it-alls think. A quick recovery coil
cylinder can be downsized.

If you are filling a bath, yes. But people here are saying that
the output of a 24kW combi is totally inadequate from which one
might infer that they are looking for the equivalent of twice
this. If I can do the sums, 1kW delivers 858 litre-degrees per
hour. Assume water coming in at 5C and out at 42C, 37C rise so
1kW delivers 23 litres per hour, 48kW 1110 litres/hour or 18.5
litres per minute. Even if you have your 75 litre cylinder at
(say) 65C (which then means that a condensing boiler is being run
below max efficiency) after about 6 minutes your stored hot water
is gone and the maximum delivery will depend on (a) the boiler
output; and (b) the ability of the cylinder coil to transfer the
heat.

If a 75 litre cylinder is exhausted after 6 mins a boiler and quick recovery
coil can replenish at 10 litres min while being emptied. So in that 6 mins
@ 60 litres plus 75 litres. So that means a normal bath will be filled no
problem. It is not a matter of debate. It just happens.

So get this shower performance in an average house you either
need a very large cylinder or a grossly oversized (for most
houses) boiler. Unless I'm missing something .....

I think you lost the thread a little. I gave an example of the know-it-alls
giving bad advise downsizing cylinders. Paul Barker says as 24Kw combi
is more than fine for a shower.

Grossly oversized boiler? We are coming to the one size fits all, around
24kW, using modulation. Aks anyone who has a combi in a flat. The rads are
hot within a few minutes, a great bonus, then it throttles back. You can
get a combi for £350 and not use the DHW section. Ravenheat encourage this.
Many installers do this as combi's are cost effective due to mass take up
and manufacturing.



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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
fred wrote:
Yeah, I wouldn't be happy leaving a 150W light bulb on 24/7, but with
gas
it's 5p a day so not at the level I'd worry about.

Also remember that if the cylinder
is within the body of the house, this
heat isn't totally wasted during the
times of the year where heating is
needed.

.....sigh....at it again he is.....yes he is nice people....If the cylinder
cupboard is below the loft much of the heat goes into the loft....obvious we
all know...but DIYing caber making is a very different task...
sigh


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In article , Doctor Evil wrote:
If a 75 litre cylinder is exhausted after 6 mins a boiler
and quick recovery coil can replenish at 10 litres min while
being emptied. So in that 6 mins @ 60 litres plus 75
litres. So that means a normal bath will be filled no
problem. It is not a matter of debate. It just happens.

I'm not arguing re baths. *If* you are of the view that a proper
shower needs 18 or so litres per minute (q.v. an ordinary combi
is totally unequal to the task: not my personal view) then you
need to be able to reheat water at this rate or have enough
storage. On your numbers said shower will start running cold
after 8-9 minutes.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
Also remember that if the cylinder
is within the body of the house, this
heat isn't totally wasted during the
times of the year where heating is
needed.

....sigh....at it again he is.....yes he is nice people....If the
cylinder cupboard is below the loft much of the heat goes into the
loft....obvious we all know...but DIYing caber making is a very
different task... sigh

Yet again showing your lack of knowledge about real world design of
anything? Just why would you have a cylinder cupboard open to the loft?

Perhaps you have large holes all over your house. Like in your arguments?

--
*The first rule of holes: If you are in one, stop digging!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tony Bryer wrote:
I'm not arguing re baths. *If* you are of the view that a proper
shower needs 18 or so litres per minute (q.v. an ordinary combi
is totally unequal to the task: not my personal view) then you
need to be able to reheat water at this rate or have enough
storage. On your numbers said shower will start running cold
after 8-9 minutes.

I doubt most would want - or more likey need - to be in a shower with a
decent flow for 10 minutes or so.

--
*I'm not being rude. You're just insignificant

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:53:09 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:

....sigh....at it again he is.....yes he is nice people....If the cylinder
cupboard is below the loft much of the heat goes into the loft....obvious we
all know...but DIYing caber making is a very different task...
sigh

What, you mean "below the loft" as distinct from "sitting in the
garden"?

Every room in the house is below the loft you prat.
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:01:45 +0000, Doctor Evil wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message



snip drivel


3) When attempts at reasoned debate
expire the posts descend to personal
attacks on the other posters.

You can't have reasoned debates with idiots. Look at the likes of Plowman
et al; pure trolls. Brainless, experienceless.

An fro you information, when I give an opinion, you had batter take it
seriously.

For cod's sake!
I don't _take_ your opinions I _evaluate_ them.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
fred wrote:
Yeah, I wouldn't be happy leaving a 150W light bulb on 24/7, but
with
gas
it's 5p a day so not at the level I'd worry about.

Also remember that if the cylinder
is within the body of the house, this
heat isn't totally wasted during the
times of the year where heating is
needed.

....sigh....at it again he is.....yes he is nice people....If the
cylinder
cupboard is below the loft much of the heat goes into the
loft....obvious we
all know...but DIYing caber making is a very different task...
sigh


Not if the cupboard ceiling is insulated, you total oaf, most would
call it an airing cupboard.....

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news

For cod's sake!
I don't _take_ your opinions I _evaluate_ them.

And the result is zero?

Mary

In message , Steve Firth
writes
raden wrote:

Steve - I'm not totally unknowledgeable when it comes to boilers etc ...

as I said, mine does [provide a decent shower]

Yes, and I'm not unknowledgeable when it comes to showers, what the
British regard as a decent shower wouldn't be acceptable in any other
country.

You just can't beat a bucket with holes in the bottom for a good shower
....

Sorry you can't generalise me as being "the British"

Stop digging yourself into a hole

--
geoff

In message , Doctor Evil
writes

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Burns-Curtis,
alias Elvis Presley,
alias Adam,
alais John Lennon,
alias IMM,
alias Icky the Firebobby,
alias David Ike,
alias MiniMe,
alias Bernado Guey
alais "Doctor Evil" writes:

You can't have reasoned debates with idiots.

I don't recall that I

snip more drivel

Hmm.

....he retorted...well I snipped it as it was as usual total inane babble.
... Sad but true...

So do us all a favour and snip all your babble. Better still, just don't
post

--
geoff

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Doctor Evil wrote:
If a 75 litre cylinder is exhausted after 6 mins a boiler
and quick recovery coil can replenish at 10 litres min while
being emptied. So in that 6 mins @ 60 litres plus 75
litres. So that means a normal bath will be filled no
problem. It is not a matter of debate. It just happens.

I'm not arguing re baths. *If* you are of the view that a proper
shower needs 18 or so litres per minute

That's enough for two.


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"Nick Atty" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:53:09 -0000, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:

....sigh....at it again he is.....yes he is nice people....If the
cylinder
cupboard is below the loft much of the heat goes into the loft....obvious
we
all know...but DIYing caber making is a very different task...
sigh

What, you mean "below the loft" as distinct from "sitting in the
garden"?

....and yet another starnge one enter the ring. Saying..

Every room in the house is below the loft you prat.

......you don't say.....what about the dormer room at one end? Or the room
that stores all the cabers? Cor...sirry irriot...





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"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 23:01:45 +0000, Doctor Evil wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message



snip drivel


3) When attempts at reasoned debate
expire the posts descend to personal
attacks on the other posters.

You can't have reasoned debates with idiots. Look at the likes of
Plowman
et al; pure trolls. Brainless, experienceless.

An fro you information, when I give an opinion, you had batter take it
seriously.

For cod's sake!
I don't _take_ your opinions I _evaluate_ them.

....and if you had sense you take them up.


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":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
fred wrote:
Yeah, I wouldn't be happy leaving a 150W light bulb on 24/7, but
with
gas
it's 5p a day so not at the level I'd worry about.

Also remember that if the cylinder
is within the body of the house, this
heat isn't totally wasted during the
times of the year where heating is
needed.

....sigh....at it again he is.....yes he is nice people....If the
cylinder
cupboard is below the loft much of the heat goes into the
loft....obvious we
all know...but DIYing caber making is a very different task...
sigh

Not if the cupboard ceiling is insulated, you total oaf, most would
call it an airing cupboard.....

.......another here. It depends on how good the insulation is....he couldn't
figure this out....


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"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news

For cod's sake!
I don't _take_ your opinions I _evaluate_ them.

And the result is zero?

Mary, that could be, you never know...some people are just no good at it...



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"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Doctor Evil
writes

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Burns-Curtis,
alias Elvis Presley,
alias Adam,
alais John Lennon,
alias IMM,
alias Icky the Firebobby,
alias David Ike,
alias MiniMe,
alias Bernado Guey
alais "Doctor Evil" writes:

You can't have reasoned debates with idiots.

I don't recall that I

snip more drivel

Hmm.

....he retorted...well I snipped it as it was as usual total inane
babble.
... Sad but true...

So do us all a favour and snip all your babble. Better still, just don't
post

Maxie, do you mean you like the inane babble I snipped for you? My oh my
Maxie....


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In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
An fro you information, when I give an opinion, you had batter take
it seriously.

For cod's sake! I don't _take_ your opinions I _evaluate_ them.

...and if you had sense you take them up.

But they're not opinions, you shiftless worm, but merely adverts from
manufacturer's websites.

--
*Don't byte off more than you can view *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , Doctor Evil
writes

....he retorted...well I snipped it as it was as usual total inane
babble.
... Sad but true...

So do us all a favour and snip all your babble. Better still, just don't
post

Maxie, do you mean you like the inane babble I snipped for you? My oh my
Maxie....

No, I mean the inane babble you always come out with

sfb

--
geoff

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
An fro you information, when I give an opinion, you had batter take
it seriously.

For cod's sake! I don't _take_ your opinions I _evaluate_ them.

...and if you had sense you take them up.

....the DIY caber maker eneter....yes he does...

....I snipped the drivel for you all as it is taking up space......




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"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Doctor Evil
writes

....he retorted...well I snipped it as it was as usual total inane
babble.
... Sad but true...

So do us all a favour and snip all your babble. Better still, just
don't
post

Maxie, do you mean you like the inane babble I snipped for you? My oh my
Maxie....

No, I mean the inane babble you always come out with

.....Maxie! You are a one...Just full of witty fun...what would we do
without you?


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In message , Doctor Evil
writes

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
An fro you information, when I give an opinion, you had batter take
it seriously.

For cod's sake! I don't _take_ your opinions I _evaluate_ them.

...and if you had sense you take them up.

...the DIY caber maker eneter....yes he does...

...I snipped the drivel for you all as it is taking up space......

No, you typed it

--
geoff

In message , Doctor Evil
writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Doctor Evil
writes

....he retorted...well I snipped it as it was as usual total inane
babble.
... Sad but true...

So do us all a favour and snip all your babble. Better still, just
don't
post

Maxie, do you mean you like the inane babble I snipped for you? My oh my
Maxie....

No, I mean the inane babble you always come out with

....Maxie! You are a one...

And you're a ****wit, what's your point ?


--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Steve Firth
writes
raden wrote:

Steve - I'm not totally unknowledgeable when it comes to boilers etc ...

as I said, mine does [provide a decent shower]

Yes, and I'm not unknowledgeable when it comes to showers, what the
British regard as a decent shower wouldn't be acceptable in any other
country.

You just can't beat a bucket with holes in the bottom for a good shower

That's true but you need it to be supported and someone to keep the bucket
filled.

My best shower ever was on Old Sarum after an incredibly hot week in the
tent. I saw two trucks side by side with a polythene sheet draped between
them and a girl rejoicing under a hose pipe hanging from over a cab. I asked
if I could do the same, it was glorious!

Oh cold bliss ...

Mary
...

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Doctor Evil
writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Doctor Evil
writes

....he retorted...well I snipped it as it was as usual total inane
babble.
... Sad but true...

So do us all a favour and snip all your babble. Better still, just
don't
post

Maxie, do you mean you like the inane babble I snipped for you? My oh
my
Maxie....

No, I mean the inane babble you always come out with

....Maxie! You are a one...

And you're a ****wit, what's your point ?

Maxie, you are still at it....full of fun and frivolity...what a a
man!!!...what a man!!!


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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
Also remember that if the cylinder
is within the body of the house, this
heat isn't totally wasted during the
times of the year where heating is
needed.

....sigh....at it again he is.....yes he is nice people....If the
cylinder cupboard is below the loft much of the heat goes into the
loft....obvious we all know...but DIYing caber making is a very
different task... sigh

Yet again showing

.......well the stupidity had to inject again.............such madness.... I
saved you all the arduous task of making sense of it.......by giving it a
quick snip......


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"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
fred wrote:
Yeah, I wouldn't be happy leaving a 150W light bulb on 24/7,
but
with
gas
it's 5p a day so not at the level I'd worry about.

Also remember that if the cylinder
is within the body of the house, this
heat isn't totally wasted during the
times of the year where heating is
needed.

....sigh....at it again he is.....yes he is nice people....If
the
cylinder
cupboard is below the loft much of the heat goes into the
loft....obvious we
all know...but DIYing caber making is a very different task...
sigh

Not if the cupboard ceiling is insulated, you total oaf, most
would
call it an airing cupboard.....

......another here. It depends on how good the insulation is....he
couldn't
figure this out....


Next you'll be claiming that it depends on if the roof has been tiled
or left open to the elements... You utter twit !

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
fred wrote:
Yeah, I wouldn't be happy leaving a 150W light bulb on 24/7,
but
with
gas
it's 5p a day so not at the level I'd worry about.

Also remember that if the cylinder
is within the body of the house, this
heat isn't totally wasted during the
times of the year where heating is
needed.

....sigh....at it again he is.....yes he is nice people....If
the
cylinder
cupboard is below the loft much of the heat goes into the
loft....obvious we
all know...but DIYing caber making is a very different task...
sigh

Not if the cupboard ceiling is insulated, you total oaf, most
would
call it an airing cupboard.....

......another here. It depends on how good the insulation is....he
couldn't
figure this out....

.......another one contributes nonsense too...snipped for your benefit......



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In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:


......another here. It depends on how good the insulation is....he
couldn't figure this out....


Next you'll be claiming that it depends on if the roof has been tiled or
left open to the elements... You utter twit !

Perhaps John might explain how heat 'loss' from a cylinder performs in a
different way than the heat from a radiator in the same room?

Of course given his understanding of physics, I'll not hold my breath

--
*If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...


......another one contributes nonsense too...snipped for your
benefit......


Stop talking about yourself twit.