A thread for pro disasters.

Heres a start:
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb...ML/000323.html

NT

wrote in message
oups.com...
A thread for pro disasters.

Heres a start:
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb...ML/000323.html

NT

I wish I'd taken a picture of a central heating boiler installation at a
neighbour's house - done on a government grant..

The gas pipe was fixed *outside* the walls. It came out of the coal shed
(where the meter was), along the lowest course of bricks, up the side of the
back door frame, over the top, down the other side, along the lowest bricks
and into her kitchen.

She thought it was odd. I challenged the installer, he said it was according
to CORGI regs, the fittings were at the regulation distance apart, and went
off.

The company denied that there was anything irregular about the pipe run. It
was only re-routed after the customer went to a solicitor.

Mary

In article , Mary
Fisher wrote:
I wish I'd taken a picture of a central heating boiler installation
at a neighbour's house - done on a government grant..

The gas pipe was fixed *outside* the walls.

Not unusual and arguably often safer than the alternatives.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Mary
Fisher wrote:
I wish I'd taken a picture of a central heating boiler installation
at a neighbour's house - done on a government grant..

The gas pipe was fixed *outside* the walls.

Not unusual and arguably often safer than the alternatives.

I've never seen it before. The alternative would be to take it under the
floor (a much shorter route) which is the norm round here at least. Fixed to
the outside wall is vulnerable and therefore potentially unsafe.

That was accepted by the installers when they were threatened with legal
action.

Mary

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Mary
Fisher wrote:
I wish I'd taken a picture of a central heating boiler installation
at a neighbour's house - done on a government grant..

The gas pipe was fixed *outside* the walls.

Not unusual and arguably often safer than the alternatives.

I've never seen it before. The alternative would be to take it under the
floor (a much shorter route) which is the norm round here at least. Fixed
to
the outside wall is vulnerable and therefore potentially unsafe.

The trouble is that, although more likely to be damaged, the hazard from a
gas leak outside is fairly low (no explosion risk). Under floor leaks
(although much less likely) are far more hazardous (very high explosion
risk).

I guess the two balance out and you would go for the shortest run (which it
sounds like they didn't!)

That was accepted by the installers when they were threatened with legal
action.

Well that *may* just mean they couldn't afford the time and money to go to
court - the case for most small businesses.

My major complaint would have been that it looked crap and could they please
redo it!


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

In article , Mary
Fisher writes

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Mary
Fisher wrote:
I wish I'd taken a picture of a central heating boiler installation
at a neighbour's house - done on a government grant..

The gas pipe was fixed *outside* the walls.

Not unusual and arguably often safer than the alternatives.

I've never seen it before. The alternative would be to take it under the
floor (a much shorter route) which is the norm round here at least. Fixed to
the outside wall is vulnerable and therefore potentially unsafe.

That was accepted by the installers when they were threatened with legal
action.

Lots of them like that round here - people have moved their boilers into
the loft, copper gas pipe comes out of the (outside) meter cupboard, up
the wall and into the loft.
--
Tim Mitchell

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...

Fisher wrote:
I wish I'd taken a picture of a central heating boiler installation
at a neighbour's house - done on a government grant..

The gas pipe was fixed *outside* the walls.

Not unusual and arguably often safer than the alternatives.

I've never seen it before. The alternative would be to take it under the
floor (a much shorter route) which is the norm round here at least. Fixed
to
the outside wall is vulnerable and therefore potentially unsafe.

The trouble is that, although more likely to be damaged, the hazard from a
gas leak outside is fairly low (no explosion risk).

Piping should be done so that it doesn't leak in normal conditions. when
outside it's far more vulnerable than when it's under the floors. Are you
worried about your gas piping being under floors?

Under floor leaks
(although much less likely) are far more hazardous (very high explosion
risk).

I guess the two balance out and you would go for the shortest run (which
it
sounds like they didn't!)

They didn't.

That was accepted by the installers when they were threatened with legal
action.

Well that *may* just mean they couldn't afford the time and money to go to
court - the case for most small businesses.

Court was never mentioned, I think the threat of losing the contract might
have been more telling.

My major complaint would have been that it looked crap and could they
please
redo it!

That was the first line, they didn't accept it.

I really wish I'd taken a picture ...

You know how when there's a post or the like on a corner and children swing
on it every time they go past it? That would have happened in this
situation, it would have come off the wall next to the back door in no time.

Mary


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

"Tim Mitchell" wrote in message
...

I wish I'd taken a picture of a central heating boiler installation
at a neighbour's house - done on a government grant..

The gas pipe was fixed *outside* the walls.

....

Lots of them like that round here - people have moved their boilers into
the loft, copper gas pipe comes out of the (outside) meter cupboard, up
the wall and into the loft.

This piping went round and close to the back door. It was also attached to
the wall at just above ground level, asking to be used as a footrail. I
described it in my original post.

Mary
--
Tim Mitchell

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...

Fisher wrote:
I wish I'd taken a picture of a central heating boiler installation
at a neighbour's house - done on a government grant..

The gas pipe was fixed *outside* the walls.

Not unusual and arguably often safer than the alternatives.

I've never seen it before. The alternative would be to take it under
the
floor (a much shorter route) which is the norm round here at least.
Fixed
to
the outside wall is vulnerable and therefore potentially unsafe.

The trouble is that, although more likely to be damaged, the hazard from
a
gas leak outside is fairly low (no explosion risk).

Piping should be done so that it doesn't leak in normal conditions. when
outside it's far more vulnerable than when it's under the floors. Are you
worried about your gas piping being under floors?

No, bit of a cheat though - I don't have any under the floors (they are
solid), so it has to go round the walls (but inside). Given the situation
you describe, I would probably have gone for the under floor route and
limited my worrying to *definitely* ensuring the under floor ventilation was
adequate. The nub of the argument is whether surface mounted pipes are
"illegal" in some way - I don't believe they are in themselves (but I may be
wrong)- although long runs of exposed thin copper pipework would certainly
not be best practice.


Under floor leaks
(although much less likely) are far more hazardous (very high explosion
risk).

I guess the two balance out and you would go for the shortest run (which
it
sounds like they didn't!)

They didn't.

That was accepted by the installers when they were threatened with
legal
action.

Well that *may* just mean they couldn't afford the time and money to go
to
court - the case for most small businesses.

Court was never mentioned, I think the threat of losing the contract might
have been more telling.

Well it comes to the same thing! Money counts whether what they did was
"legal" or not.


My major complaint would have been that it looked crap and could they
please
redo it!

That was the first line, they didn't accept it.


I really wish I'd taken a picture ...

You know how when there's a post or the like on a corner and children
swing
on it every time they go past it? That would have happened in this
situation, it would have come off the wall next to the back door in no
time.

I would have probably tried the legal route as well, in that case, whatever
the actual state of the law! If the gas pipes are available to swing on
(which I don't think you said to start with) the fitters might well be
accused of negligence and failing to take proper care etc. I agree it sounds
a horrendous installation. The fact remains though the domestic gas loose
outside isn't particularly dangerous compared with it loose inside. Even if
there's no-one in, a light gas explosion will destroy a house as most
masonry walls will only withstand about 2psi (AFAIR) (across the whole wall)
lateral pressure difference.

If someone popped up now with a proposal to pipe inflammable gas into
people's houses in thin walled cooper tube (this not having been thought of
yet) they would be laughed at, of course, but there we go!

Bob

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...


No, bit of a cheat though - I don't have any under the floors (they are
solid), so it has to go round the walls (but inside). Given the situation
you describe, I would probably have gone for the under floor route and
limited my worrying to *definitely* ensuring the under floor ventilation
was
adequate. The nub of the argument is whether surface mounted pipes are
"illegal" in some way

The same arguments were made in the forum referred to by the OP.

....

You know how when there's a post or the like on a corner and children
swing
on it every time they go past it? That would have happened in this
situation, it would have come off the wall next to the back door in no
time.

I would have probably tried the legal route as well, in that case,
whatever
the actual state of the law! If the gas pipes are available to swing on
(which I don't think you said to start with)

"The gas pipe was fixed *outside* the walls. It came out of the coal shed
(where the meter was), along the lowest course of bricks, *up the side of
the
back door frame, over the top, down the other side,* along the lowest bricks
and into her kitchen."

Between * and * describes it quite well, I think. Piping which goes round a
door frame is available to be swung on. If it's available it will be as
anyone with experience of children and adolecents will know.

The fact remains though the domestic gas loose
outside isn't particularly dangerous compared with it loose inside. Even
if
there's no-one in, a light gas explosion will destroy a house as most
masonry walls will only withstand about 2psi (AFAIR) (across the whole
wall)
lateral pressure difference.

Of course it will. An HGV going off the road and hitting a house can destroy
it too, we don't keep them out of residential areas (sadly). There are many
examples of possible dangers.

If someone popped up now with a proposal to pipe inflammable gas into
people's houses in thin walled cooper tube (this not having been thought
of
yet) they would be laughed at, of course, but there we go!

Using such examples of bad practice are irrelevant. There must be thousands
of such things. No-one suggests piping gas into in people's houses. Gas,
electricity, water, fire are all dangerous when not used properly. Bad
masters comes to mind. Best practice bears that in mind and aims for safe
installations.

And it should when routing gas or water pipes and electricial wiring and
that include potential accidential or malicious physical damage.

Mary

Bob

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...


snip lots of stuff

All I was saying was I don't think running gas pipes along external
brickwork (as I have seen in plenty of places, although never round an
external door frame) is illegal.

Between * and * describes it quite well, I think. Piping which goes round
a
door frame is available to be swung on. If it's available it will be as
anyone with experience of children and adolecents will know.

I have experience of both (having both at present in the house), if you were
implying I didn't! How available it is to be swung on depends on how it's
fixed - as you say a photo would ease the pain of any misunderstanding.

The fact remains though the domestic gas loose
outside isn't particularly dangerous compared with it loose inside. Even
if
there's no-one in, a light gas explosion will destroy a house as most
masonry walls will only withstand about 2psi (AFAIR) (across the whole
wall)
lateral pressure difference.

Of course it will. An HGV going off the road and hitting a house can
destroy
it too, we don't keep them out of residential areas (sadly). There are
many
examples of possible dangers.

I wasn't saying there weren't. I was saying gas on the loose inside is
*more* dangerous than gas on the loose outside, with an example. I can't
work out from your reply whether you were agreeing or disagreeing with that
point, I'm afraid. If you think the difference is irrelevant, I will have to
beg to differ.


If someone popped up now with a proposal to pipe inflammable gas into
people's houses in thin walled cooper tube (this not having been thought
of
yet) they would be laughed at, of course, but there we go!

Using such examples of bad practice are irrelevant. There must be
thousands
of such things. No-one suggests piping gas into in people's houses.

Yes they do- I think you missed the irony. Gas supplies are exactly that.
They are only tolerated because they already exist. If they were suggested
now (having not existed) they wouldn't be allowed at all.

And it should when routing gas or water pipes and electricial wiring and
that include potential accidential or malicious physical damage.

Aha! a point we seem to agree on (see my earlier posting on fitter's
negligence, lack of care etc) )

Bob

Mary

Bob

Bob Mannix wrote:
If someone popped up now with a proposal to pipe inflammable gas into
people's houses in thin walled cooper tube (this not having been thought of
yet) they would be laughed at, of course, but there we go!

I'm sure your right: a bit like the old argument that if alcohol were
invented tomorrow it would immediately be made illegal!

David

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
Bob Mannix wrote:
If someone popped up now with a proposal to pipe inflammable gas into
people's houses in thin walled cooper tube (this not having been thought
of
yet) they would be laughed at, of course, but there we go!

I'm sure your right: a bit like the old argument that if alcohol were
invented tomorrow it would immediately be made illegal!

And aspirin.

Mary

David

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Tim Mitchell" wrote in message
...


I wish I'd taken a picture of a central heating boiler installation
at a neighbour's house - done on a government grant..

The gas pipe was fixed *outside* the walls.

...

Lots of them like that round here - people have moved their boilers into
the loft, copper gas pipe comes out of the (outside) meter cupboard, up
the wall and into the loft.


This piping went round and close to the back door. It was also attached to
the wall at just above ground level, asking to be used as a footrail. I
described it in my original post.

So you'd have been happy if it had gone straight up, horizontally at
high level and down again?

I would have, but I can't off the top of my head think of whether that's
mandated anywhere and frankly can't be bottomed to trawl through the
relevant standards (e.g. BS6891) checking :-)

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:
"Tim Mitchell" wrote in message
...


I wish I'd taken a picture of a central heating boiler installation
at a neighbour's house - done on a government grant..

The gas pipe was fixed *outside* the walls.

...

Lots of them like that round here - people have moved their boilers into
the loft, copper gas pipe comes out of the (outside) meter cupboard, up
the wall and into the loft.


This piping went round and close to the back door. It was also attached
to the wall at just above ground level, asking to be used as a footrail.
I described it in my original post.

So you'd have been happy if it had gone straight up, horizontally at high
level and down again?

Everyone seems to be being contentious about this, I can't be bothered
replying to any more mischievous replies.

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:20:36 +0000, Mary Fisher wrote:


wrote in message
oups.com...
A thread for pro disasters.

Heres a start:
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb...ML/000323.html

NT

I wish I'd taken a picture of a central heating boiler installation at a
neighbour's house - done on a government grant..

The gas pipe was fixed *outside* the walls. It came out of the coal shed
(where the meter was), along the lowest course of bricks, up the side of the
back door frame, over the top, down the other side, along the lowest bricks
and into her kitchen.

She thought it was odd. I challenged the installer, he said it was according
to CORGI regs, the fittings were at the regulation distance apart, and went
off.

The company denied that there was anything irregular about the pipe run. It
was only re-routed after the customer went to a solicitor.

It may not have been what the customer wanted/expected. But, provided the
correct materials were used, clipped at the right intervals and sleeved
correctly it would comply with the regs.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On this great dayTue, 22 Feb 2005 22:20:44 +0000, Ed Sirett
wrote:

snipped

It may not have been what the customer wanted/expected. But, provided the
correct materials were used, clipped at the right intervals and sleeved
correctly it would comply with the regs.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.

Ah ....... but were the pipes the right colour? .... ;-)

Mike

Pullout "stop" to reply by email

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Mary
Fisher wrote:
I wish I'd taken a picture of a central heating boiler installation
at a neighbour's house - done on a government grant..

The gas pipe was fixed *outside* the walls.

Not unusual and arguably often safer than the alternatives.

I've never seen it before. The alternative would be to take it under the
floor (a much shorter route) which is the norm round here at least. Fixed
to
the outside wall is vulnerable and therefore potentially unsafe.

Actually the oil and gas recommendations both say that above ground is the
preferred method, and only if this isn't acceptable is the following, hugely
expensive method to be used.

"Bob Mannix" wrote in message
...
The nub of the argument is whether surface mounted pipes are
"illegal" in some way - I don't believe they are in themselves (but I may
be
wrong)- although long runs of exposed thin copper pipework would certainly
not be best practice.

Oil must be in plastic covered copper. I would have assumed this best for
gas as well.

wrote:

A thread for pro disasters.

For anyone who hasn't seen it before, the exploding substation
transformer video is quite sobering:
http://205.243.100.155/frames/longarc.htm#Blowup

--
Andy

Andy Wade wrote:

For anyone who hasn't seen it before, the exploding substation
transformer video is quite sobering:
http://205.243.100.155/frames/longarc.htm#Blowup

Holy moley! - watch them try to blame that one on DIY-ers, or an absence
of Part P.

(Is it coincidence that all the pro disasters so far in this tread are
all USA'ian?)

David

"Lobster" wrote in message
...


(Is it coincidence that all the pro disasters so far in this tread are all
USA'ian?)

They're not.

Mary

David

Andy Wade wrote:
wrote:

A thread for pro disasters.


For anyone who hasn't seen it before, the exploding substation
transformer video is quite sobering:
http://205.243.100.155/frames/longarc.htm#Blowup

Fork me, never seen anything on that scale before!

In message , Cuprager
writes
Andy Wade wrote:
wrote:

A thread for pro disasters.
For anyone who hasn't seen it before, the exploding substation
transformer video is quite sobering:
http://205.243.100.155/frames/longarc.htm#Blowup

Fork me, never seen anything on that scale before!

Give DIMM an electrical screwdriver and it's only a matter of time ...

--
geoff

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:31:15 +0000, Mike wrote:

On this great dayTue, 22 Feb 2005 22:20:44 +0000, Ed Sirett
wrote:

snipped

It may not have been what the customer wanted/expected. But, provided the
correct materials were used, clipped at the right intervals and sleeved
correctly it would comply with the regs.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.

Ah ....... but were the pipes the right colour? .... ;-)

AIUI there is no requirement for the pipes to be Canary Yellow in a
_domestic_ installation. ;-)

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:39:06 +0000, Andy Wade wrote:

wrote:

A thread for pro disasters.

For anyone who hasn't seen it before, the exploding substation
transformer video is quite sobering:
http://205.243.100.155/frames/longarc.htm#Blowup

Apparently there was a sub-station blowup like that in Highgate, North
London a few weeks ago and several houses caught fire.

I presume the really big fire ball is when all the insulating oil gets to
flash point.
--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

wrote:
A thread for pro disasters.

Heres a start:
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb...ML/000323.html

NT

How about Portsmouth's new millenium "Spinnaker Tower"? Cock Up, start
to finish, oh wait a minuet, its not finished yet, and the contractors
want ANOTHER £few million to get it ready for this years tourists!

http://www.portsmouth-guide.co.uk/local/spintwr.htm

Ed Sirett wrote:

I presume the really big fire ball is when all the insulating oil
gets to
flash point.


you can see the oil spray out in a cloud a couple of secs before it
(the oil cloud) ignites. Fun. From a distance.


NT

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:48:42 GMT, Tony Bryer
wrote:

In article , Mary
Fisher wrote:
I wish I'd taken a picture of a central heating boiler installation
at a neighbour's house - done on a government grant..

The gas pipe was fixed *outside* the walls.

Not unusual and arguably often safer than the alternatives.

They've just converted a building across the street into flats, putting
a row of gas meters along the bottom, and then running yards and yards
of BSP across the wall from each to the appropriate flat (it turns into
copper just before vanishing into the wall).

As this is on the wall that faces a rather dark alleyway, and used to
frequently get graffitied, I'm not convinced it's quite the right way to
do it. They look really useful to climb up if you wanted to get into
an upstairs window, for a start.
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)

"Nick Atty" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:48:42 GMT, Tony Bryer
wrote:

In article , Mary
Fisher wrote:
I wish I'd taken a picture of a central heating boiler installation
at a neighbour's house - done on a government grant..

The gas pipe was fixed *outside* the walls.

Not unusual and arguably often safer than the alternatives.

They've just converted a building across the street into flats, putting
a row of gas meters along the bottom, and then running yards and yards
of BSP across the wall from each to the appropriate flat (it turns into
copper just before vanishing into the wall).

As this is on the wall that faces a rather dark alleyway, and used to
frequently get graffitied, I'm not convinced it's quite the right way to
do it. They look really useful to climb up if you wanted to get into
an upstairs window, for a start.

Quite ...

Since so many people said that it was a common practice I've been looking.
Hard. I haven't seen anything like it hereabouts or on any of my journeys.

Perhaps it's a southern thing ...

Mary

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:13:26 +0000, Mary Fisher wrote:


"Nick Atty" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:48:42 GMT, Tony Bryer
wrote:

In article , Mary
Fisher wrote:
I wish I'd taken a picture of a central heating boiler installation
at a neighbour's house - done on a government grant..

The gas pipe was fixed *outside* the walls.

Not unusual and arguably often safer than the alternatives.

They've just converted a building across the street into flats, putting
a row of gas meters along the bottom, and then running yards and yards
of BSP across the wall from each to the appropriate flat (it turns into
copper just before vanishing into the wall).

As this is on the wall that faces a rather dark alleyway, and used to
frequently get graffitied, I'm not convinced it's quite the right way to
do it. They look really useful to climb up if you wanted to get into
an upstairs window, for a start.

Quite ...

Since so many people said that it was a common practice I've been looking.
Hard. I haven't seen anything like it hereabouts or on any of my journeys.

Perhaps it's a southern thing ...

If I had a few more roun tuits I'd get the camera out. At least a dozen or
so buildings with gas installation (as well as service) pipes on the
outside with in 50meters of here.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news

Since so many people said that it was a common practice I've been
looking.
Hard. I haven't seen anything like it hereabouts or on any of my
journeys.

Perhaps it's a southern thing ...

If I had a few more roun tuits I'd get the camera out. At least a dozen or
so buildings with gas installation (as well as service) pipes on the
outside with in 50meters of here.

You're not in Leeds. I can't believe that Leeds is unique.

Mary

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

"Nick Atty" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:48:42 GMT, Tony Bryer
wrote:

In article , Mary
Fisher wrote:
I wish I'd taken a picture of a central heating boiler installation
at a neighbour's house - done on a government grant..

The gas pipe was fixed *outside* the walls.

Not unusual and arguably often safer than the alternatives.

They've just converted a building across the street into flats, putting
a row of gas meters along the bottom, and then running yards and yards
of BSP across the wall from each to the appropriate flat (it turns into
copper just before vanishing into the wall).

As this is on the wall that faces a rather dark alleyway, and used to
frequently get graffitied, I'm not convinced it's quite the right way to
do it. They look really useful to climb up if you wanted to get into
an upstairs window, for a start.

Quite ...

Since so many people said that it was a common practice I've been looking.
Hard. I haven't seen anything like it hereabouts or on any of my journeys.

Not I, I should point out. I said it was within regs, not common (and
perhaps preferable in some circumstances). I have seen such installations
occasionally but not "commonly". I have seen one along a wall at the back of
a parking space at about bumper height (no, I wouldn't have been happy about
it if it was mine but it was probably within regs).


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)