Hi,

I've got a problem with my 1st floor shower. It's an in-bath, shower head
on flexible hose
connected to the bath mixer taps type affair. House built in 1990, all
original plumbing -
conventional setup for that era i.e. stored cold water tank in loft, HW
cylinder in airing
cupboard on 1st floor. The shower in question is gravity fed from pipes
leading from the
airing cupboard. The problem is the appauling flow rate of both HW and CW,
but
especially CW through the bath mixer taps. Even with the shower turned off
the CW
output from the bath taps is pathetic, the CW output from the wash basin in
the same
room as the shower is substantially better as is the performance of another
shower (also
gravity fed) in an en-suite of a different room on the same floor. My numero
uno culprit
for the poor flow is the non-return valves (check valves) fitted just before
the bath
mixer taps. The picture below shows the scene with the bath front panel
removed.
The two pipes feed the HW/CW bath mixer taps and the two valves are
presumably
the two check valves ?

http://www.knownentity.com/pics/bath/bath_valves.jpg

I guess the check valves are there due to water regs required when a shower
head
on a flexible lead is used in a bath environment with the potential for
drawing
contaminated water back into the house water tanks/supply.

So, what to do.......

I was thinking of something along the following:-

1. Try to prove that it's the check valves which are responsible for the
poor flow by
measuring the CW flow with valve in place, removing valve and then measuring
the
new flow rate.
2. If the flow rate differences are substantial then remove both check
valves and
replace the flexible hose shower with a fixed head unit. I was thinking of
the following
retro-fit unit from Screwfix :-

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...01187&id=64439

Presumably as the shower head would then be fixed and so couldn't be
submerged
in contaminated bath water then I'm OK regarding water regs with removing
the
check valves ?

Things I'm not too confident about:-

Removing the check valves and fitting a new connector from the pipe to the
tap.
Presumably the bit of the supply pipes where the check valve compression
olive
has bitten will not be reusable for fitting a new connector and I'll have to
cut away
some pipe and either fit a new compression joint to a fresh bit of pipe ?

Any comments, suggestions ?

Andy.

Andy wrote:

cupboard on 1st floor. The shower in question is gravity fed from pipes
leading from the
airing cupboard. The problem is the appauling flow rate of both HW and CW,

If the shower is gravity fed (i.e. HW from the cylinder and CW from the
header cistern in the loft) then there is no need for any sort of non
return valve in the setup.

for the poor flow is the non-return valves (check valves) fitted just before
the bath
mixer taps. The picture below shows the scene with the bath front panel
removed.
The two pipes feed the HW/CW bath mixer taps and the two valves are
presumably
the two check valves ?

http://www.knownentity.com/pics/bath/bath_valves.jpg

They don't look like any check valves I have used... not to say they
aren't mind you ;-)

(I think your equi-potential bonding ought to be on the other side of
the valves as well)

I guess the check valves are there due to water regs required when a shower
head
on a flexible lead is used in a bath environment with the potential for
drawing
contaminated water back into the house water tanks/supply.

Since you are not suppose to drink the tanked water it is a bit of a non
issue. The time a double check valve would be required was if there was
a danger of contaminating the rising main.

1. Try to prove that it's the check valves which are responsible for the
poor flow by
measuring the CW flow with valve in place, removing valve and then measuring
the
new flow rate.

Sounds like a good plan...

2. If the flow rate differences are substantial then remove both check
valves and
replace the flexible hose shower with a fixed head unit. I was thinking of
the following
retro-fit unit from Screwfix :-

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...01187&id=64439

or leave it as it is....

Things I'm not too confident about:-

Removing the check valves and fitting a new connector from the pipe to the
tap.
Presumably the bit of the supply pipes where the check valve compression
olive
has bitten will not be reusable for fitting a new connector and I'll have to
cut away
some pipe and either fit a new compression joint to a fresh bit of pipe ?

As long as your new compression fitting is the same thread as the
existing (highly likely), just reuse the existing olive and back nut.
Add a few turnd of PTFE over the olive if in doubt or try sealing
compound like Fernox LS if you prefer.

You will need a little bit of play in the pipes to get the old valves
out. If they are fixed rigidly, then cut away the valve with a pipe
cutter, and use a soldered slip connection to make the last joint.


--
Cheers,

John.

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| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Andy wrote:
mixer taps. The picture below shows the scene with the bath front
panel
removed.
The two pipes feed the HW/CW bath mixer taps and the two valves are
presumably
the two check valves ?

http://www.knownentity.com/pics/bath/bath_valves.jpg

They don't look like any check valves I have used... not to say they
aren't mind you ;-)


Perhaps I'll step back a bit and ask if anyone can identify these valves
then ?

I'm assuming they're check valves, anyone confirm this ?

Here's a closeup :-

http://www.knownentity.com/pics/bath/valves_closeup.jpg


Cheers,

Andy.

Andy wrote:

Perhaps I'll step back a bit and ask if anyone can identify these valves
then ?

I'm assuming they're check valves, anyone confirm this ?

Here's a closeup :-

http://www.knownentity.com/pics/bath/valves_closeup.jpg

If you take one out and look in it, it should be obvious (typically a
small axial plunger on a stalk with a spring, flow in one direction
pushes the plunger away from the seat and allows water to flow, in the
other direction it pushes it into its seat and prevents flow, with no
flow the spring returns the plunger to its seat.

Either way, if its a gravited fed shower on both hot and cold then you
won't need a check valve.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...


If you take one out and look in it, it should be obvious (typically a
small axial plunger on a stalk with a spring, flow in one direction pushes
the plunger away from the seat and allows water to flow, in the other
direction it pushes it into its seat and prevents flow, with no flow the
spring returns the plunger to its seat.

Either way, if its a gravited fed shower on both hot and cold then you
won't need a check valve.


Thanks for your help again John. Yes both CW/HW supply is gravity
fed so I think it's the end of the road for the valves!

As you mentioned in your previous reply though, actually removing the
valves could be a bit tricky if (as I suspect) there's no movement in the
22mm pipes either side of the valve. You mentioned cutting the valve
out and joining the two pipe ends with new pipe and solder connectors.
Wouldn't I have the same issues with pipe rigidity when assembling such
a connection setup i.e somethings got to give to allow the pipe to be fitted
inside a solder connector....

Sorry for the basic questions, new to this plumbing lark!

Cheers,

Andy.

Andy wrote:

As you mentioned in your previous reply though, actually removing the
valves could be a bit tricky if (as I suspect) there's no movement in the
22mm pipes either side of the valve. You mentioned cutting the valve

Removing will be dead easy, rather than bothering to unscrew the nut,
just cut the pipe above and below the valve. One of the small pipe
cutters should fit in between the pipes ok. Having said that you may
find there is play in the pipes anyway, especialy as the top section of
each pipe has a dog leg in it.

out and joining the two pipe ends with new pipe and solder connectors.
Wouldn't I have the same issues with pipe rigidity when assembling such
a connection setup i.e somethings got to give to allow the pipe to be fitted
inside a solder connector....

You you are right, the key word in my original suggestion however was
"slip"... as in solder "slip connector". These are like ordinary solder
fittings except they don't have the depression in the centre that stops
them sliding right over the pipe. Hence as long as you can get a pipes
thickness of lateral movement out of at least one pipe, you simply flux
it up, slide it right onto the pipe so that it does not overlap the end,
re-align the pipes, and slide it half way back again before soldering.
You can achieve the same result with a compression fitting if you want
by drilling out the stop in the middle of it so it will pass right onto
a pipe (tricky without a big drill bit and a drill press mind you!) If
you really don't fancy that, then you could use a couple of push fit
elbows and a short section of flexible plastic pipe instead.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Andy wrote:

As you mentioned in your previous reply though, actually removing the
valves could be a bit tricky if (as I suspect) there's no movement in the
22mm pipes either side of the valve. You mentioned cutting the valve

Removing will be dead easy, rather than bothering to unscrew the nut, just
cut the pipe above and below the valve. One of the small pipe cutters
should fit in between the pipes ok. Having said that you may find there is
play in the pipes anyway, especialy as the top section of each pipe has a
dog leg in it.

out and joining the two pipe ends with new pipe and solder connectors.
Wouldn't I have the same issues with pipe rigidity when assembling such
a connection setup i.e somethings got to give to allow the pipe to be
fitted
inside a solder connector....

You you are right, the key word in my original suggestion however was
"slip"... as in solder "slip connector". These are like ordinary solder
fittings except they don't have the depression in the centre that stops
them sliding right over the pipe. Hence as long as you can get a pipes
thickness of lateral movement out of at least one pipe, you simply flux
it up, slide it right onto the pipe so that it does not overlap the end,
re-align the pipes, and slide it half way back again before soldering. You
can achieve the same result with a compression fitting if you want by
drilling out the stop in the middle of it so it will pass right onto a
pipe (tricky without a big drill bit and a drill press mind you!) If you
really don't fancy that, then you could use a couple of push fit elbows
and a short section of flexible plastic pipe instead.



Cheers again John, I worked out what you meant by slip connector
about 15 mins after posting my last message :-) Simple solution
really! I think I might do some practice solder joints on a spare pipe
and connectors first.... How do you keep the copper slip peice in
place when applying heat and then solder to a vertical installation
(assuming only one pair of hands are available!) ? Presumably
gravity will make it slide down the pipe ?


Andy.

Andy wrote:

Cheers again John, I worked out what you meant by slip connector
about 15 mins after posting my last message :-) Simple solution
really! I think I might do some practice solder joints on a spare pipe

Often the way... bit like sometimes it is only half way through
explaining something to someone that you suddenly "get it" properly
yourself!

and connectors first.... How do you keep the copper slip peice in
place when applying heat and then solder to a vertical installation
(assuming only one pair of hands are available!) ? Presumably
gravity will make it slide down the pipe ?

With a bit of luck it won't be that loose. If it is, you could give it a
gentle squeeze with a pair of grips to tighten it on the pipe first.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[quote=John Rumm]

You will need a little bit of play in the pipes to get the old valves
out. If they are fixed rigidly, then cut away the valve with a pipe
cutter, and use a soldered slip connection to make the last joint.


If you undo the back nuts on the underside of the mixer you'll be able to
lift the valves off without cutting any of the existing pipework. You might also be lucky and find that FULL-BORE quarter-turn valves fitted in line in place of the valves will avoid you having to add any new pipework.

Good luck.