I need some electrical advice. I'm doing a small project with a suspended
ceiling in a hallway. This is just a stretched canvas which acts like a
giant light shade. The proper ceiling above is solid concrete with a ceiling
rose and any further wiring has to sit on top of it. The lighting for this
project requires two sets of 3 x 20w low voltage halogen spots which mount
on the top ceiling. I have these from Ikea and they each come with a small
transformer to be mounted on the ceiling and 3 pin plugs. I want the most
flexibility to change the lights or turn off one of the sets. So... I
thought I'd leave the plugs on and fit a double socket on the ceiling,
replacing the ceiling rose with a 4-way junction box. Is this an unsafe
idea? Should I fit an extra fuse between the junction box and socket? Thanks
for your input.

"choco" wrote in message
.. .
I need some electrical advice. I'm doing a small project with a suspended
ceiling in a hallway. This is just a stretched canvas which acts like a
giant light shade. The proper ceiling above is solid concrete with a
ceiling
rose and any further wiring has to sit on top of it. The lighting for this
project requires two sets of 3 x 20w low voltage halogen spots which mount
on the top ceiling. I have these from Ikea and they each come with a small
transformer to be mounted on the ceiling and 3 pin plugs. I want the most
flexibility to change the lights or turn off one of the sets. So... I
thought I'd leave the plugs on and fit a double socket on the ceiling,
replacing the ceiling rose with a 4-way junction box. Is this an unsafe
idea? Should I fit an extra fuse between the junction box and socket?
Thanks
for your input.



There is nothing stopping you from replacing the ceiling rose with a socket.
The only thing I'd suggest is that you obtain proper locking plug and socket
units so that the weight of cable or other mechanical stresses don't pull on
the plugs and yank them out. Normal plug and socket systems aren't really
up to being hung from a ceiling, which you might notice if you've ever
accidentally tugged a flex and the plug pulls slightly out the socket and
the appliance stops working, even though the look like they are still
properly married together.

Hager have the right stuff for this job in their Ashley / Klix range. Have
a look here for details:

http://www.hager.co.uk/product/kliklighting.htm

Good luck with it.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.786 / Virus Database: 532 - Release Date: 29/10/04

"BigWallop" wrote in message k...
"choco" wrote in message
.. .
I need some electrical advice. I'm doing a small project with a suspended
ceiling in a hallway. This is just a stretched canvas which acts like a
giant light shade. The proper ceiling above is solid concrete with a
ceiling
rose and any further wiring has to sit on top of it. The lighting for this
project requires two sets of 3 x 20w low voltage halogen spots which mount
on the top ceiling. I have these from Ikea and they each come with a small
transformer to be mounted on the ceiling and 3 pin plugs. I want the most
flexibility to change the lights or turn off one of the sets. So... I
thought I'd leave the plugs on and fit a double socket on the ceiling,
replacing the ceiling rose with a 4-way junction box. Is this an unsafe
idea? Should I fit an extra fuse between the junction box and socket?
Thanks
for your input.



There is nothing stopping you from replacing the ceiling rose with a socket.
The only thing I'd suggest is that you obtain proper locking plug and socket
units so that the weight of cable or other mechanical stresses don't pull on
the plugs and yank them out. Normal plug and socket systems aren't really
up to being hung from a ceiling, which you might notice if you've ever
accidentally tugged a flex and the plug pulls slightly out the socket and
the appliance stops working, even though the look like they are still
properly married together.

Hager have the right stuff for this job in their Ashley / Klix range. Have
a look here for details:

http://www.hager.co.uk/product/kliklighting.htm

Good luck with it.

I assume a twisy wire tie would be way cheaper and less hassle.
Its against regs to fit 13A sockets to lighting rings.

NT

"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...

Its against regs to fit 13A sockets to lighting rings.

Any idea why? Is there another kind of 3 pin socket I could use? There are 4
roses on the circuit including this one.

choco wrote:


Its against regs to fit 13A sockets to lighting rings.

Any idea why? Is there another kind of 3 pin socket I could use? There are 4
roses on the circuit including this one.

To stop any mumpty plugging heavy loads into the lighting circuit.

For your needs, if the 13A sockets are out of reach (you mentioned on
the ceiling with thin canvas below, right?) the practical chance of
anyone plugging the vac into them is tiny, and a 4-way strip with a
suitable warning label ("EXISTING LIGHTS ONLY!!") would be sensible
enough. If the sockets are just holding plugs, and you clip the cable to
the ceiling so there's no serious weight pulling them out, mounting the
block on the ceiling would be OK. If you have wall-warts or similar, you
should mount the 13A block on some sort of 90-degree bracket
arrangement, suspended shelf, or adjacent wall if still covered by your
bit o'canvas, so that the weight won't gradually pull the wallwarts out
over months.

Put a 3A fuse in the 4-way block, as further protection against some
fool (you when half-asleep, say!) plugging any heavier load in. And when
you come to sell, take away the 13A blocks...

HTH - Stefek

Stefek Zaba wrote:
choco wrote:


Its against regs to fit 13A sockets to lighting rings.


Any idea why? Is there another kind of 3 pin socket I could use? There
are 4
roses on the circuit including this one.

To stop any mumpty plugging heavy loads into the lighting circuit.

For your needs, if the 13A sockets are out of reach (you mentioned on
the ceiling with thin canvas below, right?) the practical chance of
anyone plugging the vac into them is tiny, and a 4-way strip with a
suitable warning label ("EXISTING LIGHTS ONLY!!") would be sensible
enough. If the sockets are just holding plugs, and you clip the cable to
the ceiling so there's no serious weight pulling them out, mounting the
block on the ceiling would be OK. If you have wall-warts or similar, you
should mount the 13A block on some sort of 90-degree bracket
arrangement, suspended shelf, or adjacent wall if still covered by your
bit o'canvas, so that the weight won't gradually pull the wallwarts out
over months.

Put a 3A fuse in the 4-way block, as further protection against some
fool (you when half-asleep, say!) plugging any heavier load in. And when
you come to sell, take away the 13A blocks...

HTH - Stefek

Ikea's latest plug in 20va 12v lighting transformers are now switched
mode psu and are very small and light, probably weighing as much as a
normal plug.

However I guess you should really put them to one side and use a couple
of propper wire in - wire out low voltage lighting transformers (e.g. a
50 VA one could cope with two Ikea 20w lamps). These can then be wired
to the flex from the old celing roses.

As far as practable keep the low voltage cable length as equal as
possible if supplied more than one lamp from a transformer.



--
--
Peter D

The information contained in this post may not be published
in, or used by http://www.diyprojects.info

"choco" wrote in message
.. .
"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...

Its against regs to fit 13A sockets to lighting rings.

Any idea why? Is there another kind of 3 pin socket I could use? There are
4
roses on the circuit including this one.


You can still obtain the round 3-pin 5A plugs and sockets for just this
purpose.

Screwfix have the plugs and sockets.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 05:46:43 -0000, "choco"
wrote:

I need some electrical advice. I'm doing a small project with a suspended
ceiling in a hallway. This is just a stretched canvas which acts like a
giant light shade. The proper ceiling above is solid concrete with a ceiling
rose and any further wiring has to sit on top of it. The lighting for this
project requires two sets of 3 x 20w low voltage halogen spots which mount
on the top ceiling. I have these from Ikea and they each come with a small
transformer to be mounted on the ceiling and 3 pin plugs. I want the most
flexibility to change the lights or turn off one of the sets. So... I
thought I'd leave the plugs on and fit a double socket on the ceiling,
replacing the ceiling rose with a 4-way junction box. Is this an unsafe
idea? Should I fit an extra fuse between the junction box and socket? Thanks
for your input.

I would cut off the 3 pin plug and wire them into fused connection
spurs with small fuses in.

That way there can be no doubt about plugging in any other plugged
appliance up to 13A.

HTH
Rob


Replace 'spam' with 'org' to reply

replying to choco, wpollock wrote:
plusplus7 wrote:

I need some electrical advice. I'm doing a small project with a suspended
ceiling in a hallway. This is just a stretched canvas which acts like a
giant light shade. The proper ceiling above is solid concrete with a
ceiling
rose and any further wiring has to sit on top of it. The lighting for this
project requires two sets of 3 x 20w low voltage halogen spots which mount
on the top ceiling. I have these from Ikea and they each come with a small
transformer to be mounted on the ceiling and 3 pin plugs. I want the most
flexibility to change the lights or turn off one of the sets. So... I
thought I'd leave the plugs on and fit a double socket on the ceiling,
replacing the ceiling rose with a 4-way junction box. Is this an unsafe
idea? Should I fit an extra fuse between the junction box and socket?
Thanks
for your input.


so you will be adding a total of 120 watts ( 1 amp I believe) to an
existing supply line. You need to determine the following:
1. what existing electrical services ( wall receptacles,light
fixtures,fans,etc.)are on the circuit you will be adding the lights to?
will adding the lights overload the existing breaker causing it to trip?
2. what size is the breaker for this circuit?
3. what type and gauge is the existing electrical wire you will be
connecting to? If aluminum, I don't believe you would want to combine the
two unless you have knowledge of how to use special splicers where you
will make your connection.
4. how will you hang and control the new lights? by using a existing wall
switch that runs to the existing ceiling rose?

If you are certain adding the lights will not overload the breaker and you
have copper wire then you would probably be safe making a solid connection
at the rose and hanging your new lights.

Disclosu I AM NOT A LICENSED ELECTRICIAN AND AM ONLY GIVING YOU WHAT I
BELIEVE TO BE RELEVANT QUESTIONS TO CONSIDER

--

On 24/07/15 14:44, wpollock wrote:
replying to choco, wpollock wrote:
plusplus7 wrote:

I need some electrical advice. I'm doing a small project with a suspended
ceiling in a hallway. This is just a stretched canvas which acts like a
giant light shade. The proper ceiling above is solid concrete with a
ceiling
rose and any further wiring has to sit on top of it. The lighting for
this
project requires two sets of 3 x 20w low voltage halogen spots which
mount
on the top ceiling. I have these from Ikea and they each come with a
small
transformer to be mounted on the ceiling and 3 pin plugs. I want the most
flexibility to change the lights or turn off one of the sets. So... I
thought I'd leave the plugs on and fit a double socket on the ceiling,
replacing the ceiling rose with a 4-way junction box. Is this an unsafe
idea? Should I fit an extra fuse between the junction box and socket?
Thanks
for your input.


so you will be adding a total of 120 watts ( 1 amp I believe)

1/2A

to an
existing supply line. You need to determine the following:
1. what existing electrical services ( wall receptacles,light
fixtures,fans,etc.)are on the circuit you will be adding the lights to?
will adding the lights overload the existing breaker causing it to trip?
2. what size is the breaker for this circuit?
3. what type and gauge is the existing electrical wire you will be
connecting to? If aluminum, I don't believe you would want to combine the
two unless you have knowledge of how to use special splicers where you
will make your connection.
4. how will you hang and control the new lights? by using a existing wall
switch that runs to the existing ceiling rose?

If you are certain adding the lights will not overload the breaker and you
have copper wire then you would probably be safe making a solid connection
at the rose and hanging your new lights.

Disclosu I AM NOT A LICENSED ELECTRICIAN AND AM ONLY GIVING YOU WHAT I
BELIEVE TO BE RELEVANT QUESTIONS TO CONSIDER


Valid points, but adding 120W load is *very* unlikely to overload a
domestic circuit in a typical house.

More to the point I think Choco finished this project 10 years ago.

Richard

On 24/07/15 15:24, Tricky Dicky wrote:
More to the point I think Choco finished this project 10 years ago.

Richard


I don't know - he could be me...

I am into my 6th year (or it might be more - gawd). However, in my
defence, every job that is complete is *actually* complete[1] and each
year we do make significant progress. It's a long job when you both
partners work and you have kids who needs time for this that and the
other... Still depressing though...

[1] The bath has a presentable, but otherwise *temporary* panel - I
think everyone's been there...

Been there, got the tee shirt Tim, there are always those tuit jobs. At the last house over the 30 years we were there we rewired, re-plumbed everything right down to stop cock, replaced every piece woodwork, and practically re plastered 80% of the walls and the list goes on. We had friends who used to come round to spot what had been knocked down or where any new holes were and they would go away disappointed if they could not spot a bare section of pink plaster. Domestic management finally got see every bit of pink plaster obliterated a few months before we put the house up for sale which was a section at the back of the airing cupboard and only because she did it herself. Well you do not want to spoil them too much!

Richard

On 7/24/2015 4:19 PM, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Been there, got the tee shirt Tim, there are always those tuit jobs.
At the last house over the 30 years we were there we rewired,
re-plumbed everything right down to stop cock, replaced every piece
woodwork, and practically re plastered 80% of the walls and the list
goes on. We had friends who used to come round to spot what had been
knocked down or where any new holes were and they would go away
disappointed if they could not spot a bare section of pink plaster.
Domestic management finally got see every bit of pink plaster
obliterated a few months before we put the house up for sale which
was a section at the back of the airing cupboard and only because she
did it herself. Well you do not want to spoil them too much!

I had a list of jobs to do at the last place - finally threw it away
when we sold it ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...


I had a list of jobs to do at the last place - finally threw it away when
we sold it ;-)

Could you not have saved it for the new house:-)

--
Adam

On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 15:20:36 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 24/07/15 14:44, wpollock wrote:
replying to choco, wpollock wrote:
plusplus7 wrote:

I need some electrical advice. I'm doing a small project with a suspended
ceiling in a hallway. This is just a stretched canvas which acts like a
giant light shade. The proper ceiling above is solid concrete with a
ceiling
rose and any further wiring has to sit on top of it. The lighting for
this
project requires two sets of 3 x 20w low voltage halogen spots which
mount
on the top ceiling. I have these from Ikea and they each come with a
small
transformer to be mounted on the ceiling and 3 pin plugs. I want the most
flexibility to change the lights or turn off one of the sets. So... I
thought I'd leave the plugs on and fit a double socket on the ceiling,
replacing the ceiling rose with a 4-way junction box. Is this an unsafe
idea? Should I fit an extra fuse between the junction box and socket?
Thanks
for your input.


so you will be adding a total of 120 watts ( 1 amp I believe)

1/2A

to an
existing supply line. You need to determine the following:
1. what existing electrical services ( wall receptacles,light
fixtures,fans,etc.)are on the circuit you will be adding the lights to?
will adding the lights overload the existing breaker causing it to trip?
2. what size is the breaker for this circuit?
3. what type and gauge is the existing electrical wire you will be
connecting to? If aluminum, I don't believe you would want to combine the
two unless you have knowledge of how to use special splicers where you
will make your connection.
4. how will you hang and control the new lights? by using a existing wall
switch that runs to the existing ceiling rose?

If you are certain adding the lights will not overload the breaker and you
have copper wire then you would probably be safe making a solid connection
at the rose and hanging your new lights.

Disclosu I AM NOT A LICENSED ELECTRICIAN AND AM ONLY GIVING YOU WHAT I
BELIEVE TO BE RELEVANT QUESTIONS TO CONSIDER


Valid points, but adding 120W load is *very* unlikely to overload a
domestic circuit in a typical house.

Valid points if you live in N America as I suspect wpollock does.
Flash Newsgroups hides his IP, unlike most web Usenet leaches.

Do they use alooominum cable?

--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On 24/07/15 19:26, John Rumm wrote:
On 7/24/2015 4:19 PM, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Been there, got the tee shirt Tim, there are always those tuit jobs.
At the last house over the 30 years we were there we rewired,
re-plumbed everything right down to stop cock, replaced every piece
woodwork, and practically re plastered 80% of the walls and the list
goes on. We had friends who used to come round to spot what had been
knocked down or where any new holes were and they would go away
disappointed if they could not spot a bare section of pink plaster.
Domestic management finally got see every bit of pink plaster
obliterated a few months before we put the house up for sale which
was a section at the back of the airing cupboard and only because she
did it herself. Well you do not want to spoil them too much!

I had a list of jobs to do at the last place - finally threw it away
when we sold it ;-)



What gets annoying is 3 of my jobs are still holding a building notice
open. The big push this and next year is to get that signed off. LABC
don't care, but it limits the choice of insurers.

On 24/07/15 19:42, ARW wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...


I had a list of jobs to do at the last place - finally threw it away
when we sold it ;-)

Could you not have saved it for the new house:-)


Exactly... We are *never* getting rid of the house I've been fixing...
IME any "new" property always has stuff wrong with it, even things built
in the last 10 years.

On 24/07/15 20:42, Graham. wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 15:20:36 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 24/07/15 14:44, wpollock wrote:
replying to choco, wpollock wrote:
plusplus7 wrote:

I need some electrical advice. I'm doing a small project with a suspended
ceiling in a hallway. This is just a stretched canvas which acts like a
giant light shade. The proper ceiling above is solid concrete with a
ceiling
rose and any further wiring has to sit on top of it. The lighting for
this
project requires two sets of 3 x 20w low voltage halogen spots which
mount
on the top ceiling. I have these from Ikea and they each come with a
small
transformer to be mounted on the ceiling and 3 pin plugs. I want the most
flexibility to change the lights or turn off one of the sets. So... I
thought I'd leave the plugs on and fit a double socket on the ceiling,
replacing the ceiling rose with a 4-way junction box. Is this an unsafe
idea? Should I fit an extra fuse between the junction box and socket?
Thanks
for your input.


so you will be adding a total of 120 watts ( 1 amp I believe)

1/2A

to an
existing supply line. You need to determine the following:
1. what existing electrical services ( wall receptacles,light
fixtures,fans,etc.)are on the circuit you will be adding the lights to?
will adding the lights overload the existing breaker causing it to trip?
2. what size is the breaker for this circuit?
3. what type and gauge is the existing electrical wire you will be
connecting to? If aluminum, I don't believe you would want to combine the
two unless you have knowledge of how to use special splicers where you
will make your connection.
4. how will you hang and control the new lights? by using a existing wall
switch that runs to the existing ceiling rose?

If you are certain adding the lights will not overload the breaker and you
have copper wire then you would probably be safe making a solid connection
at the rose and hanging your new lights.

Disclosu I AM NOT A LICENSED ELECTRICIAN AND AM ONLY GIVING YOU WHAT I
BELIEVE TO BE RELEVANT QUESTIONS TO CONSIDER


Valid points, but adding 120W load is *very* unlikely to overload a
domestic circuit in a typical house.

Valid points if you live in N America as I suspect wpollock does.
Flash Newsgroups hides his IP, unlike most web Usenet leaches.

Do they use alooominum cable?


We (the UK) used to use ali cable - for a brief period in the 60s or 70s
(I forget). Nasty stuff in a domestic environment. Still plenty of it in
commercial/industrial settings too. Imperial College has some - we know,
because it did the aluminium creep thing and a distribution neutral came
disconnected and floated quite a long way from one of the phases.
Basically such stuff needs to be on a maintenance schedule of checking
terminations.