On 13 Oct 2004 Ian Stirling wrote:

Steve Firth wrote:
Michael Chare wrote:

I can't see how someone managed to install the rack without
electrocuting themself.

If the drill bit just hit the live wire you might not get a shock
because

a) Quite likely holding onto plastics parts of drill

b) Possibly not touching any other earthed item.

Birds sit on live wires everyday without ill effect!

Yes, then you have a screw to get into place while holding onto the
metal rack. How does that work?

Last screw, with it sitting on the bit of the screwdriver held
in aforementioned insulared drill?

Or plastic wall plug, screw a bit too long, only touches the wire on
the last turn or two by which time you're only holding the
insulated handle of the screwdriver. Still, you'd think the installer
would give the rack a bit of a tug just to make sure it was firmly
fixed.

--
Richard Porter
Mail to username ricp at domain minijem.plus.com
"You can't have Windows without pains."

In article ,
Richard Porter wrote:
Still, you'd think the installer
would give the rack a bit of a tug just to make sure it was firmly
fixed.

Heh heh. But didn't it say it was movement of the screw which had frayed
through the insulation?.

Of course, anyone with sense would have moved the rack a half inch so the
screw touched the neutral...

--
*Don't use no double negatives *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Bill" wrote in message
...
In message , Steve Firth
writes
If the installer was Ms Tonge herself then the error may perhaps be
understandable. OTOH I can't see how someone managed to install the rack
without electrocuting themself.

Last year I helped a friend replace her kitchen cupboards. When we took
down one of them there was a neatly drilled hole in the plaster behind it
with no rawl plug in it but with some very nice and quite artistic black
scorch lines radiating from it for about 1/2" all around and a pencilled
note saying "do not use"! It must have been interesting to observe!
It was also directly above a 13A twin outlet that was still in use, after
digging a hole in the plaster it was clear that the live had been neatly
cut. The circuit had been used for years with a break in the live side. Oh
and there were only wired fuses in a very overloaded and similarly
blackened CU which has now been replaced with a new split load one.

This thing of the cable not going vertical to the socket/appliance caught me
out once. I was fitting shelves in the my kitcen about 18 inches to the left
of the cooker switch/single socket. I too made the assumption that the cable
would run down vertical after having removed the switch cover to verify the
cable went straight up. Nope I drilled through the 32A (?) cooker feed
blowing both the consumer unit fuse and electricity board 60A fuse !!!! (oh
and ruining my nice new 6mm drill bit).

After power was restored later that evening (didn't get charged as wrong
rated fuse had been fitted, so not my fault (?)) cut holes in plaster board
to reveal a nice loop of cable curving gracefully behind the plaster board
down to the switch. Why it didn't just go straight down, rather than go
straight past the vertical then curve back to the switch I will never know,
probably because someone couldn't be bothered to pull the excess cable out.

In article ,
Ian Middleton wrote:
After power was restored later that evening (didn't get charged as wrong
rated fuse had been fitted, so not my fault (?)) cut holes in plaster
board to reveal a nice loop of cable curving gracefully behind the
plaster board down to the switch. Why it didn't just go straight down,
rather than go straight past the vertical then curve back to the switch
I will never know, probably because someone couldn't be bothered to
pull the excess cable out.

You must have been using some force to drill plasterboard if you manage to
drill through a loose cable behind it?

--
*How come you never hear about gruntled employees? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Bill wrote in message ...
In message , Steve Firth
writes
If the installer was Ms Tonge herself then the error may perhaps be
understandable. OTOH I can't see how someone managed to install the rack
without electrocuting themself.


From all I've read here it looks to me like an accident that no
sensible regulation or practice change could be expected to avoid. Why
do I say that? Nothing is 100% safe, not one thing in this world. Our
job is to use the limietd resources we've got to reduce risks as much
as poss, that means reducing the bigger ones. To put any measure in
place that would have prevented this would cost so much that many more
lives would be lost in other areas where oney was not spent on risk
reduction. It would not be cost effective, more lives would be lost
than saved. Same as with bathroom equipotential bonding, same problem.
Whoever came up with that one does not seems to grasp this.

At some time we have to bite the bullet of reality: we can not make
the world totally safe. It cant be done. And trying to will make us
all poorer, and lses resources to implement improvements will result
in more deaths not less.

The one realistic thing that would have made the difference was if the
family had enough brain cells between them to realise that if they
were getting shocks off the rack that it was a danger and should have
been removed, with power off. If they cant look after themselves on
such an obvious and basic level... not much we can do to help them.
Very sad, but unfortunately theres no way to wish deaths away, and no
way to stop a moron finding ways to endanger themselves.


NT

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ian Middleton wrote:
After power was restored later that evening (didn't get charged as wrong
rated fuse had been fitted, so not my fault (?)) cut holes in plaster
board to reveal a nice loop of cable curving gracefully behind the
plaster board down to the switch. Why it didn't just go straight down,
rather than go straight past the vertical then curve back to the switch
I will never know, probably because someone couldn't be bothered to
pull the excess cable out.

You must have been using some force to drill plasterboard if you manage to
drill through a loose cable behind it?

Nope, drill (new masonary bit I think) just cut through the plaster board
and straight square onto the cable bang (a loud bang in fact) inbetween the
live and neutral, cutting the central earth wire. I think the cable was held
nicely in place (for me to drill through it) by large amounts of dot and
daub plaster as well.

In article ,
lid says...
snip
I did once manage to chop through the cable with the hedge trimmer
attachment so cleanly that it didn't blow the fuse, but the resistance
of 100m of 5a cable could have had something to do with it.


Did that twice, many years ago using a metal bodied B&D drill with a
hedge cutter attachment.

First time clean cut, no shock, nothing.

Second time the cable snagged and I found it difficult to let go the
machine as it give me a shock every time the blade touched the live
wire. I eventually managed to throw it to the ground.

I was wearing wellies so that may have helped
--
Paul Mc Cann

N. Thornton wrote:


From all I've read here it looks to me like an accident that no
sensible regulation or practice change could be expected to avoid. Why
do I say that? Nothing is 100% safe, not one thing in this world.

Two immediate examples similar to this come to mind. A friend installed
a picture hook on a drylined wall in the toilet and the tip of the pin
(20mm long) pierced the water pipe, producing a slow, expensive, leak
over the next few weeks.
The neighbours next door had a very expensive kitchen fitted (the
construction and electrical installation was crap) but the fitters
managed to puncture the water pipe under the wooden floor. It took 2
years for the problems to seriously show and required most of the ground
floor to be replaced! These piercing events are very common and
fortunately normally not fatal. At the end of the day, it just depends
upon whether your luck has run out. Sadly in Ms Tonge's case, it had.

Regards
Capitol

In message , IMM writes

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...
Tony Bryer wrote:
In article , Andy Hall
wrote:
Now where was John Redwood's number??........

It was probably John Redwood or one of his chums who first
introduced the compulsory CORGI membership if working on gas for
gain. Check out

http://www.house-builder.co.uk/artic...em.php?id=1390

Didn't see anything about CORGI in there

The Queen has Corgi's.

No, she has Corgis

go and read http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/ and learn some correct
English

--
geoff

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes


Darwin must love DIYers.

Hmm. Have you evidence this was caused by DIY? Most wouldn't rest after
such an incident and get it fixed. Not so many so called pros - especially
kitchen fitters who seem to be on piece rate. It's not their problem after
they leave - especially if things still 'work'.

Hi Dave,
a very good point. Thinking about it I was probably a bit biased having
seen some of the definite DIY that had been done there. As you say more
likely a "Pro". My apologies.
--
Bill

In article ,
Ian Middleton wrote:
You must have been using some force to drill plasterboard if you
manage to drill through a loose cable behind it?

Nope, drill (new masonary bit I think) just cut through the plaster
board and straight square onto the cable bang (a loud bang in fact)
inbetween the live and neutral, cutting the central earth wire. I think
the cable was held nicely in place (for me to drill through it) by
large amounts of dot and daub plaster as well.

Right. If it had been loose, I'd have thought the bit would have pushed it
out of the way.

FWIW, I always use an HSS drill for plasterboard. Don't think you need a
masonry one. And little pressure at a slow speed. Never quite sure what
lurks behind. ;-)

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bill wrote:
Darwin must love DIYers.

Hmm. Have you evidence this was caused by DIY? Most wouldn't rest after
such an incident and get it fixed. Not so many so called pros -
especially kitchen fitters who seem to be on piece rate. It's not their
problem after they leave - especially if things still 'work'.


Hi Dave, a very good point. Thinking about it I was probably a bit
biased having seen some of the definite DIY that had been done there.

Right. Of course it could be either. But it's a bit like gas work. Most
DIYers, I'd say, would not touch gas if they didn't think they were
capable. After all, they're the ones who will suffer. Cowboys don't care
who suffers - unless it's them.

As you say more likely a "Pro". My apologies.

Heh heh. You never need to apologise on here for expressing an opinion or
making a valid comment. If you did, you'd double the bandwidth...

--
*Organized Crime Is Alive And Well; It's Called Auto Insurance. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:27:18 +0100, Richard Porter
wrote:

When I had my Bridges drill with an earthed, die-cast case it could be
guaranteed to blow the fuse if I touched a live wire with the drill bit.

There's a Metabo with built-in voltage sensing that shuts the drill
off if it finds a buried live cable.

--
Smert' spamionam

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:40:52 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:

I doubt there are many forms of protection that would stop a 5kG SDS
either.

Protection isn't meant to protect (that's an unrealistic expectation)
- it's meant to warn you that you've hit it.

In article ,
says...
snip

FWIW, I always use an HSS drill for plasterboard. Don't think you need a
masonry one. And little pressure at a slow speed. Never quite sure what
lurks behind. ;-)


Prefer a lip and spur myself.
--
Paul Mc Cann

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 00:02:23 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Right. If it had been loose, I'd have thought the bit would have
pushed it out of the way.

Not 10mm2, that has quite a large flat face and isn't very flexable as
I'm sure you are aware. Catch it on the face rather than the rounded
edge and you'll drill it...

FWIW, I always use an HSS drill for plasterboard.

I like to keep my HSS drills sharp... Maybe I ought to invest in a
=A32.99 set of market stall speacials for PB use. Through I think Pauls =

suggestion of lip and spur might be better, masonary and HSS will tend
to tear any covering, hopefully the spur would cut it.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In article ,
Paul Mc Cann wrote:
FWIW, I always use an HSS drill for plasterboard. Don't think you need
a masonry one. And little pressure at a slow speed. Never quite sure
what lurks behind. ;-)


Prefer a lip and spur myself.

What dat?

--
*Can vegetarians eat animal crackers?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 23:31:49 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Prefer a lip and spur myself.

What dat?

Otherwise known as "brad point" in the Screwfix book:

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...97474&id=61195

Just the job for plasterboard... useful for an order top up for free
P&P. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 00:46:31 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Otherwise known as "brad point" in the Screwfix book:

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...97474&id=61195

From the sf web site:

"5 Piece Set. Chrome Vanadium with centre points and spurs."

This is a tool for cowboys, right?

Andrew

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:58:18 +0100, Andrew McKay wrote:

This is a tool for cowboys, right?

Ones that like nice neat holes in wood. They do make a much better
edged hole than an HSS drill.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
| Of course, anyone with sense would have moved the rack a half inch
| so the screw touched the neutral...

Huh. Reverse the connections at the consumer unit ...

Owain

"Owain" wrote in message
. ..
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
| Of course, anyone with sense would have moved the rack a half inch
| so the screw touched the neutral...

Huh. Reverse the connections at the consumer unit ...


Heh don't laugh about it, I know of one case were an electric board did just
that (well they reversed two of the phases actually) after installing a new
transformer at a local sub-station on a industrial est. - come Monday
morning all hell broke loose at an engineering machine shop...

In article om,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
Ones that like nice neat holes in wood. They do make a much better
edged hole than an HSS drill.

I'm not sure just how often I need a neat hole in plasterboard? And do
they do them in the sizes suitable for the various fixings?

Sharpening the size of HSS drills used for those fixings is easy enough -
it's only small ones I can't do.

--
*The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Capitol wrote in message ...
N. Thornton wrote:


From all I've read here it looks to me like an accident that no
sensible regulation or practice change could be expected to avoid. Why
do I say that? Nothing is 100% safe, not one thing in this world.


You may be interested in the pix on this website, where a curtain rail
fitting was screwed through 3 cable cappings, lady complained that the
lights went off when she closed the curtains
www.bobjames.co.uk/Photos.htm

Regards
Bob

In article om,
says...
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:58:18 +0100, Andrew McKay wrote:

This is a tool for cowboys, right?

Ones that like nice neat holes in wood. They do make a much better
edged hole than an HSS drill.


Missed the did you ?
--
Paul Mc Cann

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 21:01:41 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I'm not sure just how often I need a neat hole in plasterboard?

The tighter the fixing the better, within limits... I find hole size
is pretty critcal with PB.

And do they do them in the sizes suitable for the various fixings?

That =A32.99 Screwfix set is 4 5 6 8 and 10mm. I expect you can get
larger if required.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail