Okay, I've done a bit more research and it seems the Heat bank option has
leapt up to a ton shy of 2K so the combi is definitely still a contender.
Still looking at the actual make model options but the Worcester Bosch 40kW
HE Plus Condensing Combi is a strong possibility.

Now I still want to stick this stuff in the loft. A good location for me is
attached to the party wall. Are these upto supporting 50Kg?

As far as the access requirements go at present you can pop your head
through the loft and it would be right in front of you, since the loft is
low head room (4ft max at apex) it would be more convenient for service bod
to tackle it from waste at hatch height. So hopefully just a loft ladder
will do.

Other boiler options after top reliabilty/quality are satisfied may hinge on
the program options. Since it will be in the loft some sort of remote
option for the programmer would be best. I take it this is common. Though
alot seem geared to kitchen installation, 800 high, nice finish, inbuilt
digital displays - all of which are unnecessary for my loft. Suppose best
place for fault diagnostic display is on boiler.

Other than that I want max flow/heat 16 l/min @35°C rise to beat!

Can I do the whole fitting or do I need a Corgi chap for final connection.
How is the guarantee on the boiler affected by this? Will I EVER find a
plumber willing to do JUST the hook up (twiddle, fiddle, poke, 'that's okay
mate') at a reasonable rate?

Thoughts?
Everyone it seems loves a boiler thread

--
Mike W

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:39:25 GMT, "VisionSet"
wrote:

Okay, I've done a bit more research and it seems the Heat bank option has
leapt up to a ton shy of 2K so the combi is definitely still a contender.
Still looking at the actual make model options but the Worcester Bosch 40kW
HE Plus Condensing Combi is a strong possibility.

Now I still want to stick this stuff in the loft. A good location for me is
attached to the party wall. Are these upto supporting 50Kg?

As long it's a structural , load bearing wall in good condition, that
should be OK.



As far as the access requirements go at present you can pop your head
through the loft and it would be right in front of you, since the loft is
low head room (4ft max at apex) it would be more convenient for service bod
to tackle it from waste at hatch height. So hopefully just a loft ladder
will do.

You have to board and light the loft and put in a guard rail, but the
loft ladder is OK.



Other boiler options after top reliabilty/quality are satisfied may hinge on
the program options. Since it will be in the loft some sort of remote
option for the programmer would be best. I take it this is common. Though
alot seem geared to kitchen installation, 800 high, nice finish, inbuilt
digital displays - all of which are unnecessary for my loft. Suppose best
place for fault diagnostic display is on boiler.

Other than that I want max flow/heat 16 l/min @35°C rise to beat!

Well it's pretty simple. 40 kW gives 16 lpm at dT=35 degrees.
If you want more then you will need a larger boiler. There are a few
46kW models around that will give you around 18lpm but they cost
rather more - e,g, MAN Micromat 46kW combi.



Can I do the whole fitting or do I need a Corgi chap for final connection.
How is the guarantee on the boiler affected by this? Will I EVER find a
plumber willing to do JUST the hook up (twiddle, fiddle, poke, 'that's okay
mate') at a reasonable rate?

This is your choice. Legally (according to Gas Safety Installation
and Use Regulations 1998), you can DIY this if you are "competent".
This is by exception, in the sense that there is a specific
requirement (via the HSE acting as policeman) if you are installing
professionally to be a member of CORGI. The legislation does not
define competent with respect to DIY and doesn't positively mention
DIY. CORGI membership certainly does require training but of course
this is no absolute guarantee of a good job.
The HSE is certainly aware that DIY gas fitting goes on and
periodically there have been discussions about trying to stop it, but
there is no justification for doing so from the rate of problems
occuring from it, and they admit that. Plus it would be hard to
enforce.

There is now a requirement with respect to the energy saving aspects
of the Building Regulations Part L1. If you use a CORGI fitter to
do the work, then he can self certify it. Otherwise you have to apply
for a Building Notice at the local authority - cost around £100 I
believe.

It's a difficult proposition to ask a CORGI fitter to come along and
sprinkle holy water on your work for two reasons.

- It is not that interesting business-wise if they haven't supplied
and fitted.

- They are taking responsibility for your work with respect to the gas
supply and the flue. Once you have fitted them, it may be difficult
to see those and many would not touch it under those circumstances

- Most have plenty of work, so have no real need to do this for you

From a competence perspective, have a look through Ed Sirett's FAQ.
Ed is a CORGI fitter (as well as being a thoroughly nice guy), and his
comments are valuable.

The main ones are do you have a good, repeatable result with soldering
fittings together and do you understand all the issues involved before
you start?


Thoughts?
Everyone it seems loves a boiler thread

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

As long it's a structural , load bearing wall in good condition, that
should be OK.

Well it is a party loft wall, I suspect it is only there as a boundary, I
doubt it is load bearing, but it is brick. and it is supported by the whole
brick party partition.


You have to board

the whole loft? and even if it would never be used by trades person?

and light the loft and put in a guard rail, but the
loft ladder is OK.

lighting no problem.

What is a guard rail?


Other than that I want max flow/heat 16 l/min @35°C rise to beat!

Well it's pretty simple.

yes for sure


- Most have plenty of work, so have no real need to do this for you

Quite!


From a competence perspective, have a look through Ed Sirett's FAQ.
Ed is a CORGI fitter (as well as being a thoroughly nice guy), and his
comments are valuable.

will do.


The main ones are do you have a good, repeatable result with soldering
fittings together and do you understand all the issues involved before
you start?

Yes, I have no qualms about my ability. It was just the guarantee aspect,
am I likely to violate the boiler manufacturers requirements, I suspected
they required a Corgi fitter. I know... I shall phone WB etc.


Cheers Andy
--
Mike W

"VisionSet" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

As long it's a structural , load bearing wall in good condition, that
should be OK.

Well it is a party loft wall, I suspect it is only there as a boundary, I
doubt it is load bearing, but it is brick. and it is supported by the
whole
brick party partition.


You have to board

the whole loft? and even if it would never be used by trades person?

Not the whole, loft adequately around the hatch, to and around the boiler. A
light over the boiler and hatch and a rail around the hatch so no one will
fall down it. This may be wood screwed to the rafters to make the rail.

and light the loft and put in a guard rail, but the
loft ladder is OK.

lighting no problem.

What is a guard rail?

See above.

Other than that I want max flow/heat 16 l/min @35°C rise to beat!

Well it's pretty simple.

yes for sure


- Most have plenty of work, so have no real need to do this for you

Quite!


From a competence perspective, have a look through Ed Sirett's FAQ.
Ed is a CORGI fitter (as well as being a thoroughly nice guy), and his
comments are valuable.

will do.

The main ones are do you have a good, repeatable result with soldering
fittings together and do you understand all the issues involved before
you start?

Use Powerflux and flush properly after with Superfloc.

Yes, I have no qualms about my ability. It was just the guarantee aspect,
am I likely to violate the boiler manufacturers requirements, I suspected
they required a Corgi fitter. I know... I shall phone WB etc.

The law say you must be "competent". CORGI registration is only for when you
make money out of fitting gas equipment. It is to stop the cowboys.

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:39:25 GMT, "VisionSet"
wrote:

Okay, I've done a bit more research and it seems the Heat bank option has
leapt up to a ton shy of 2K so the combi is definitely still a contender.
Still looking at the actual make model options but the Worcester Bosch 40kW
HE Plus Condensing Combi is a strong possibility.

Now I still want to stick this stuff in the loft. A good location for me is
attached to the party wall. Are these upto supporting 50Kg?

As long it's a structural , load bearing wall in good condition, that
should be OK.

The part in the loft usually isn't though.
Gable-end walls are notoriously weak, and can
sometimes be blown out with a strong wind, so
be careful. They don't support anything and
have no weight on them (above any purlins).
I certainly wouldn't mount a boiler anywhere
near the top of such a wall.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:39:25 GMT, "VisionSet"
wrote:

Okay, I've done a bit more research and it seems the Heat bank option
has
leapt up to a ton shy of 2K so the combi is definitely still a
contender.
Still looking at the actual make model options but the Worcester Bosch
40kW
HE Plus Condensing Combi is a strong possibility.

Now I still want to stick this stuff in the loft. A good location for
me is
attached to the party wall. Are these upto supporting 50Kg?

As long it's a structural , load bearing wall in good condition, that
should be OK.

The part in the loft usually isn't though.
Gable-end walls are notoriously weak, and can
sometimes be blown out with a strong wind, so
be careful. They don't support anything and
have no weight on them (above any purlins).
I certainly wouldn't mount a boiler anywhere
near the top of such a wall.

mmm, this is what I feared.
There are purlins and I suspect I can get it central to these.
The house is well built 1930, I'll have a good look at it, get my uncle
architect to take a look. Don't know what to do otherwise, substantially
repoint it, though it doesn't really look like it needs it.

--
Mike W

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:39:25 GMT, "VisionSet"
wrote:

Okay, I've done a bit more research and it seems the Heat bank option
has
leapt up to a ton shy of 2K so the combi is definitely still a
contender.
Still looking at the actual make model options but the Worcester Bosch
40kW
HE Plus Condensing Combi is a strong possibility.

Now I still want to stick this stuff in the loft. A good location for
me is
attached to the party wall. Are these upto supporting 50Kg?

As long it's a structural , load bearing wall in good condition, that
should be OK.

The part in the loft usually isn't though.
Gable-end walls are notoriously weak,

What are you on about? they have the same foundations as the other walls.
I have mounted boilers on gables and never had any problems. Boilers are
not that heavy to worry a gable end.

and can
sometimes be blown out with a strong wind, so
be careful. They don't support anything and
have no weight on them (above any purlins).
I certainly wouldn't mount a boiler anywhere
near the top of such a wall.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:59:09 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:39:25 GMT, "VisionSet"
wrote:

Okay, I've done a bit more research and it seems the Heat bank option
has
leapt up to a ton shy of 2K so the combi is definitely still a
contender.
Still looking at the actual make model options but the Worcester Bosch
40kW
HE Plus Condensing Combi is a strong possibility.

Now I still want to stick this stuff in the loft. A good location for
me is
attached to the party wall. Are these upto supporting 50Kg?

As long it's a structural , load bearing wall in good condition, that
should be OK.

The part in the loft usually isn't though.
Gable-end walls are notoriously weak,

What are you on about? they have the same foundations as the other walls.
I have mounted boilers on gables and never had any problems. Boilers are
not that heavy to worry a gable end.


50kg mounted high up can create a substantial load.......


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:59:09 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 11:39:25 GMT, "VisionSet"
wrote:

Okay, I've done a bit more research and it seems the Heat bank option
has
leapt up to a ton shy of 2K so the combi is definitely still a
contender.
Still looking at the actual make model options but the Worcester
Bosch
40kW
HE Plus Condensing Combi is a strong possibility.

Now I still want to stick this stuff in the loft. A good location
for
me is
attached to the party wall. Are these upto supporting 50Kg?

As long it's a structural , load bearing wall in good condition, that
should be OK.

The part in the loft usually isn't though.
Gable-end walls are notoriously weak,

What are you on about? they have the same foundations as the other
walls.
I have mounted boilers on gables and never had any problems. Boilers are
not that heavy to worry a gable end.


50kg mounted high up can create a substantial load.......

On a wall like a gable end? Which has racking strength from the roof
timbers too? Please.

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 15:46:49 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:59:09 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message


The part in the loft usually isn't though.
Gable-end walls are notoriously weak,

What are you on about? they have the same foundations as the other
walls.
I have mounted boilers on gables and never had any problems. Boilers are
not that heavy to worry a gable end.


50kg mounted high up can create a substantial load.......

On a wall like a gable end? Which has racking strength from the roof
timbers too? Please.

That depends on the timber structure and which way the members go.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 15:46:49 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:59:09 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message

The part in the loft usually isn't though.
Gable-end walls are notoriously weak,

What are you on about? they have the same foundations as the other
walls.
I have mounted boilers on gables and never had any problems. Boilers
are
not that heavy to worry a gable end.


50kg mounted high up can create a substantial load.......

On a wall like a gable end? Which has racking strength from the roof
timbers too? Please.

That depends on the timber structure and which way the members go.

You don't know anything about construction.

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:17:41 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 15:46:49 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:59:09 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message

The part in the loft usually isn't though.
Gable-end walls are notoriously weak,

What are you on about? they have the same foundations as the other
walls.
I have mounted boilers on gables and never had any problems. Boilers
are
not that heavy to worry a gable end.


50kg mounted high up can create a substantial load.......

On a wall like a gable end? Which has racking strength from the roof
timbers too? Please.

That depends on the timber structure and which way the members go.

You don't know anything about construction.

OK, Mr Cleverclogs,

So explain what happens when the roof structure is of trussed rafters
with ties and there are not substantive purlins using the gable end
walls.....

Is the gable end wall then as load bearing or needing to be as strong?



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
"IMM" writes:
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
50kg mounted high up can create a substantial load.......

On a wall like a gable end? Which has racking strength from the roof
timbers too? Please.

Gable end is often not tied to the roof trusses at all.
In any case, it's not a very solid structure, so tying
it to the roof trusses does not necessarily gain a lot.
Also, it doesn't have any weight on it (the roof doesn't
rest on it) -- the weight is just that of the wall itself.
You shouldn't think of the mortar providing any lateral
strength (one hairline crack, as it will surely have, and
there's no strength in that direction). So just imagine
it's built of loose bricks with no mortar and decide
if you think it can support sufficient sideways weight.
Providing boiler's low enough that there's still many
times the weight of the boiler above the mounting point
and the centre of gravity remains inside the wall, you
would probably be OK. If there isn't much weight above
the boiler mounting points and centre of gravity when
taking the boiler weight into account is not still within
the wall, it's an unstable structure which could collapse
eventually. In addition to the displacement of the centre
of gravity, there's a question of if the wall is strong
enough to carry the weight without the weight pulling
out some bricks, which will depend on the condition of
the mortar (which in this case provides the frictional
force preventing this) and the weight of wall above the
mounting. Again, failure is likely if the weight above
the mounting points is not substantial, i.e if you
position the boiler near the top of the wall, or if
the mortar is not in good condition.

You can easily model all this with a child's building
blocks.

One way round this would be to get the neighbour on the
other side of the party wall to have an identical boiler
fitted on their side, with single bolts going
through the wall fixing up bother boilers. Then the
center of gravity will remain in the middle of the wall
so the structure is stable, and there's no force pulling
bricks out of the wall.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andy Hall wrote:


So explain what happens when the roof structure is of trussed rafters
with ties and there are not substantive purlins using the gable end
walls.....


The trusses get in the way of installing and accessing the combi?
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:38:03 +0100, "Set Square"
wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andy Hall wrote:


So explain what happens when the roof structure is of trussed rafters
with ties and there are not substantive purlins using the gable end
walls.....


The trusses get in the way of installing and accessing the combi?

That could be.
I was thinking more in terms of the gable ends not being incorporated
with the roof trusses at all.....



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"VisionSet" wrote in message
...

Now I still want to stick this stuff in the loft. A good location for me
is
attached to the party wall. Are these upto supporting 50Kg?


Well it isn't a gable end - it is a party wall.

If we assume it is not up to the weight. What can I do to make it suitable?

Standard 30's construction 4ft void at apex, purlins and rafters.
Brick stretcher party wall in good visual condition, lime mortar.

--
Mike W

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:17:41 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 15:46:49 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:59:09 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message

The part in the loft usually isn't though.
Gable-end walls are notoriously weak,

What are you on about? they have the same foundations as the other
walls.
I have mounted boilers on gables and never had any problems.
Boilers
are
not that heavy to worry a gable end.


50kg mounted high up can create a substantial load.......

On a wall like a gable end? Which has racking strength from the roof
timbers too? Please.

That depends on the timber structure and which way the members go.

You don't know anything about construction.

OK, Mr Cleverclogs,

So explain what happens when the roof structure is of trussed rafters
with ties and there are not substantive purlins using the gable end
walls.....

Is the gable end wall then as load bearing or needing to be as strong?

As I said "You don't know anything about construction"

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:38:03 +0100, "Set Square"
wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andy Hall wrote:


So explain what happens when the roof structure is of trussed rafters
with ties and there are not substantive purlins using the gable end
walls.....


The trusses get in the way of installing and accessing the combi?

That could be.
I was thinking more in terms of the gable ends not being incorporated
with the roof trusses at all.....

he has never seen the "ladder".

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 18:17:14 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:38:03 +0100, "Set Square"
wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andy Hall wrote:


So explain what happens when the roof structure is of trussed rafters
with ties and there are not substantive purlins using the gable end
walls.....


The trusses get in the way of installing and accessing the combi?

That could be.
I was thinking more in terms of the gable ends not being incorporated
with the roof trusses at all.....

he has never seen the "ladder".

????


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 18:14:38 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message


50kg mounted high up can create a substantial load.......

On a wall like a gable end? Which has racking strength from the roof
timbers too? Please.

That depends on the timber structure and which way the members go.

You don't know anything about construction.

OK, Mr Cleverclogs,

So explain what happens when the roof structure is of trussed rafters
with ties and there are not substantive purlins using the gable end
walls.....

Is the gable end wall then as load bearing or needing to be as strong?

As I said "You don't know anything about construction"


I was asking you to explain something, so if this is your best offer
of a reply, I guess that I can draw my own conclusions about your
knowledge of the subject.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 18:17:14 +0100, "IMM" wrote:
he has never seen the "ladder".

????

He's referring to the 'gable ladder' construction used to provide an
overhanging verge at a gable end. This consists of several short
horizontal timber members (running parallel to the ridge on an simple
roof) nailed to the end truss, with the barge board nailed on the
outside ends. Seen before the undercloak, felt and tiles go on this
does look like a crude sort of ladder. When the gable end brickwork is
built up it surrounds the 'rungs' of the ladder and helps tie-in the end
truss to the masonry. But there should also be steel lateral restraint
straps between the inner leaf of the wall and (at least) the first two
trusses at each end (AIUI).

50 kg (only 0.5 kN) seems to me to be a pretty negligible load to hang
on a sound brick/block wall (unless you're talking about a narrow
section between window or door openings, which is hardly likely to apply
in a loft). And the weight's going to be fairly close to the wall so
the overturning moment will not be large.

--
Andy

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 18:17:14 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:38:03 +0100, "Set Square"
wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andy Hall wrote:


So explain what happens when the roof structure is of trussed
rafters
with ties and there are not substantive purlins using the gable end
walls.....


The trusses get in the way of installing and accessing the combi?

That could be.
I was thinking more in terms of the gable ends not being incorporated
with the roof trusses at all.....

he has never seen the "ladder".

????

The question marks prove it.

wrote in message
...
In article , IMM
writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:38:03 +0100, "Set Square"
wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andy Hall wrote:


So explain what happens when the roof structure is of trussed
rafters
with ties and there are not substantive purlins using the gable end
walls.....


The trusses get in the way of installing and accessing the combi?

That could be.
I was thinking more in terms of the gable ends not being incorporated
with the roof trusses at all.....

he has never seen the "ladder".


You think the ladder structurally supports the gable end? what a plonker

Oh a mentalist!

wrote in message
...
In article , Andy Hall
writes
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 18:17:14 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:38:03 +0100, "Set Square"
wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andy Hall wrote:


So explain what happens when the roof structure is of trussed
rafters
with ties and there are not substantive purlins using the gable end
walls.....


The trusses get in the way of installing and accessing the combi?

That could be.
I was thinking more in terms of the gable ends not being incorporated
with the roof trusses at all.....

he has never seen the "ladder".

????
He means the extension piece that is built through the gable end to
support the barge board, soffit outside, John thinks this holds the
gable end together

Mentalism again.

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 20:06:31 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 18:17:14 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:38:03 +0100, "Set Square"
wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andy Hall wrote:


So explain what happens when the roof structure is of trussed
rafters
with ties and there are not substantive purlins using the gable end
walls.....


The trusses get in the way of installing and accessing the combi?

That could be.
I was thinking more in terms of the gable ends not being incorporated
with the roof trusses at all.....

he has never seen the "ladder".

????

The question marks prove it.



If you mean the timber construction to support an overhang if one
exists, it doesn't of itself add to the structural integrity of the
gable end wall


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
Andy Hall wrote:

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 18:17:14 +0100, "IMM" wrote:
he has never seen the "ladder".

????

He's referring to the 'gable ladder' construction used to provide an
overhanging verge at a gable end. This consists of several short
horizontal timber members (running parallel to the ridge on an simple
roof) nailed to the end truss, with the barge board nailed on the
outside ends. Seen before the undercloak, felt and tiles go on this
does look like a crude sort of ladder. When the gable end brickwork is
built up it surrounds the 'rungs' of the ladder and helps tie-in the end
truss to the masonry. But there should also be steel lateral restraint
straps between the inner leaf of the wall and (at least) the first two
trusses at each end (AIUI).

The lateral wood support (usually a long plank) that ties in all the trusses
usually has the steel lateral restraint nailed to it and the other end of
the right angle of the steel restraint either screwed or cemented in to the
gable end wall. The steel restraint can be quite long and go over the length
of three trusses. These steel restraints help join the gable to the roof.
They also help to keep it doiewn in high winds. Have a look around Wickes as
they have them there.

If some roofs do not have them., older roofs may not, then it is worth
fixing a number of these metal restraints and fitting them. Wind speeds in
the UK are rising and these restraints may mean the difference of your roof
lifting off or not. They also prevent an old gable wall creeping outwards if
the ground conditions change.

50 kg (only 0.5 kN) seems to me to be a pretty negligible load to hang
on a sound brick/block wall (unless you're talking about a narrow
section between window or door openings, which is hardly likely to apply
in a loft). And the weight's going to be fairly close to the wall so
the overturning moment will not be large.

Some sense at last. This bunch seem to think a gable end sits there
unconnected to anything else and is so feeble, complete with feeble
foundations, it can't hold a combi. I despair at times.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 20:06:31 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 18:17:14 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:38:03 +0100, "Set Square"
wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Andy Hall wrote:


So explain what happens when the roof structure is of trussed
rafters
with ties and there are not substantive purlins using the gable
end
walls.....


The trusses get in the way of installing and accessing the combi?

That could be.
I was thinking more in terms of the gable ends not being
incorporated
with the roof trusses at all.....

he has never seen the "ladder".

????

The question marks prove it.



If you mean the timber construction to support an overhang if one
exists, it doesn't of itself add to the structural integrity of the
gable end wall

Stop babbling.

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 19:56:20 +0100, Andy Wade
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 18:17:14 +0100, "IMM" wrote:
he has never seen the "ladder".

????

He's referring to the 'gable ladder' construction used to provide an
overhanging verge at a gable end. This consists of several short
horizontal timber members (running parallel to the ridge on an simple
roof) nailed to the end truss, with the barge board nailed on the
outside ends. Seen before the undercloak, felt and tiles go on this
does look like a crude sort of ladder. When the gable end brickwork is
built up it surrounds the 'rungs' of the ladder and helps tie-in the end
truss to the masonry. But there should also be steel lateral restraint
straps between the inner leaf of the wall and (at least) the first two
trusses at each end (AIUI).

I know exactly what you mean, but not by that name.

Of itself it is not lending support to the wall.





50 kg (only 0.5 kN) seems to me to be a pretty negligible load to hang
on a sound brick/block wall (unless you're talking about a narrow
section between window or door openings, which is hardly likely to apply
in a loft). And the weight's going to be fairly close to the wall so
the overturning moment will not be large.

For a party wall, if also structural, then I don't see an issue.
Otherwise.......




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"VisionSet" wrote in message
...


Well it isn't a gable end - it is a party wall.

If we assume it is not up to the weight. What can I do to make it
suitable?

Standard 30's construction 4ft void at apex, purlins and rafters.
Brick stretcher party wall in good visual condition, lime mortar.

--
Mike W



I have no specialist knowledge, but I wondered if it is possible for the
weight to be taken by the loft floor rather than the wall. I know such
floors are not meant to take weight, but they are nonetheless used to house
equally heavy water tanks. Or does the placement of such tanks rely upon a
structural wall underneath?

James


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.719 / Virus Database: 475 - Release Date: 13/07/2004

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:59:09 +0100, IMM wrote:


"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message

The part in the loft usually isn't though. Gable-end walls are
notoriously weak,

What are you on about? they have the same foundations as the other walls.
I have mounted boilers on gables and never had any problems. Boilers are
not that heavy to worry a gable end.


The foundations are the same as you say. Problem is with top ends of walls
which don't support anything above.

I'm not a civil engineer - I'm thinking this through as a physicist, so
obligatory hypothetical situation - but bear with me he

Take a pile of bricks and construct a 6ft high by say, 4ft wide, 9in thick
dry wall (no mortar or other filler) on a stable level surface. Kick the
bottom - I would wager a fiver you'll hurt your foot before you move any
bricks due to the weight holding them in place. Try nearer the top -
should be able to knock out a load of bricks easily because you only need
enough sideways force to overcome a little friction.

Add mortar - that will scale the strength up by providing adhesion and
better interlocking, but strength is still a function of internal load -
and the top end of a wall carrying nothing is thus considerably weaker
than a loaded wall or the base of the same. The combi will be hanging off
one side of the wall giving you a significant turning moment which only
needs to overcome the adhesion of the mortar and the weight of a few feet
of bricks.

I have no idea how heavy a combi is - but I'd consider it worthy of
further investigation before hanging it up on a gable end. What's the
typical weight of a small combi out of interest - and how deep is one?

I won't contest that you've done it and it nothing fell off - but I
wouldn't be so happy about doing it myself without a second opinion.

Cheers

Tim

"James" wrote in message
...

Well it isn't a gable end - it is a party wall.

If we assume it is not up to the weight. What can I do to make it
suitable?

Standard 30's construction 4ft void at apex, purlins and rafters.
Brick stretcher party wall in good visual condition, lime mortar.

I have no specialist knowledge, but I wondered if it is possible for the
weight to be taken by the loft floor rather than the wall. I know such
floors are not meant to take weight, but they are nonetheless used to
house
equally heavy water tanks. Or does the placement of such tanks rely upon
a
structural wall underneath?

I see no reason why not, except that is is easier if there is good access
underneath for pipework connection. Boilers tend to come on a wall mounted
jig, which makes life easier. The load bearing wall that supports the party
wall will be very close though so that wouldn't be a problem. And yes tanks
are supposed to be close to or on a supporting wall.

I don't think it will be a problem, but I'll ask uncle architect first.

--
Mike W

Andy Hall wrote:
50kg mounted high up can create a substantial load.......

He did say it was a party wall. in a 1930's house this would normally be
double brick and not a problem.

Regards
Capitol

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 00:01:04 +0100, Capitol
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
50kg mounted high up can create a substantial load.......

He did say it was a party wall. in a 1930's house this would normally be
double brick and not a problem.

Regards
Capitol


Mmm I know, and did intimate that a structural party wall probably
would be. My doubts were in relation to gable end walls which may be
a different situation.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 19:56:20 +0100, Andy Wade
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 18:17:14 +0100, "IMM" wrote:
he has never seen the "ladder".

????

He's referring to the 'gable ladder' construction used to provide an
overhanging verge at a gable end. This consists of several short
horizontal timber members (running parallel to the ridge on an simple
roof) nailed to the end truss, with the barge board nailed on the
outside ends. Seen before the undercloak, felt and tiles go on this
does look like a crude sort of ladder. When the gable end brickwork is
built up it surrounds the 'rungs' of the ladder and helps tie-in the end
truss to the masonry. But there should also be steel lateral restraint
straps between the inner leaf of the wall and (at least) the first two
trusses at each end (AIUI).

I know exactly what you mean, but not by that name.

Of itself it is not lending support to the wall.

Does that mean you are not going to lean on this wall?

50 kg (only 0.5 kN) seems to me to be a pretty negligible load to hang
on a sound brick/block wall (unless you're talking about a narrow
section between window or door openings, which is hardly likely to apply
in a loft). And the weight's going to be fairly close to the wall so
the overturning moment will not be large.

For a party wall, if also structural, then I don't see an issue.
Otherwise.......




.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

IMM wrote:

Oh a mentalist!

Out of curiosity, exactly what do you think that means?

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

IMM wrote:
Oh a mentalist!
Out of curiosity, exactly what do you think that means?

It seems to be IMM-word-of-the-month.

Dictionary.com gives two definitions:

1. Parapsychological activities, such as telepathy and mind reading.
2. The belief that some mental phenomena cannot be explained by
physical laws.

The Concise OED also has two:

Mentalism n. (Philos.) doctrine that mind, and not the material world,
is real; (Psych.) doctrine that the mind may be studied by
introspection; so ~ist(2) n.

--
Andy

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 08:11:22 +0100, Andy Wade
wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

IMM wrote:
Oh a mentalist!
Out of curiosity, exactly what do you think that means?

It seems to be IMM-word-of-the-month.

It's nearly October, so not long until we have the next WOTM, and
state-sponsored heating solution for the terraviduated proletariat.


Dictionary.com gives two definitions:

1. Parapsychological activities, such as telepathy and mind reading.
2. The belief that some mental phenomena cannot be explained by
physical laws.

The second definition sounds uncannily like IMM's modus operandi.




The Concise OED also has two:

Mentalism n. (Philos.) doctrine that mind, and not the material world,
is real; (Psych.) doctrine that the mind may be studied by
introspection; so ~ist(2) n.

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Capitol" wrote in message
...
Andy Hall wrote:
50kg mounted high up can create a substantial load.......

He did say it was a party wall. in a 1930's house this would normally be
double brick and not a problem.


In fact amongst the bull**** and slagging I've stated it is stretcher bond
brick with lime mortar. However I also suspect that it is double leaf,
possibly with wooden wall ties.

I know a builder who knows these houses intimately I ask him - just
remembered.

--
Mike W

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 08:11:22 +0100, Andy Wade
wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

IMM wrote:
Oh a mentalist!
Out of curiosity, exactly what do you think that means?

It seems to be IMM-word-of-the-month.

It's nearly October, so not long until we have the next WOTM, and
state-sponsored heating solution for the terraviduated proletariat.

Madness. Total Little Middle England madness.

In article ,
"James" writes:

"VisionSet" wrote in message
...


Well it isn't a gable end - it is a party wall.

If we assume it is not up to the weight. What can I do to make it suitable?

Standard 30's construction 4ft void at apex, purlins and rafters.
Brick stretcher party wall in good visual condition, lime mortar.

I have no specialist knowledge, but I wondered if it is possible for the
weight to be taken by the loft floor rather than the wall. I know such
floors are not meant to take weight, but they are nonetheless used to house
equally heavy water tanks. Or does the placement of such tanks rely upon a
structural wall underneath?

I would probably look for a frame which would transfer the weight
to the floor, and position it over a wall (50Kg is not heavy enough
for it to need to be positioned over a structural wall), or spread
across a few ceiling joists (but not in the middle of a long
unsupported span). Fix it to the party wall and floor.

I've seen something like this used to hold a boiler over a hot water
cylinder to make a single combined unit. You could try asking in a
plumber's merchant if they have such a frame.

--
Andrew Gabriel