I was just thinking about replacing our boiler, but we live in a small flat
where space is a premium. I have a very small traditional boiler, but I
realise the smallest combi will be bigger.

cheers
gna

"gna03633" wrote in message
06...

I was just thinking about replacing our boiler, but we live in a small
flat
where space is a premium. I have a very small traditional boiler, but I
realise the smallest combi will be bigger.

In theory some of the pre-mix radiant burners with spiral tube heat
excahgers could go in on their sides. The auto air vent would have to be
re-positioned. In practice. NO!

Look at the Worcester Bosch Junior. That is very small. Look at the size.

IMM wrote:


Look at the Worcester Bosch Junior. That is very small. Look at the size.

The Isar range from Ideal are quite a bit smaller still, and available
with more power (upto 35kW).

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:


Look at the Worcester Bosch Junior. That is very small. Look at the
size.

The Isar range from Ideal are quite a bit smaller still, and available
with more power (upto 35kW).

I think the Isar is wider. Depends on the space available.

IMM wrote:

I think the Isar is wider.

Err.. no

The 24i Junior is 600, 400, 325mm (H, W, D) but that is only part of the
story. It also needs 25mm either side, 200mm below, 180mm above, and
25mm to the front.

The Ideal Isar HE 35 is 687, 390, 278mm (H, W, D) and requires
5mm either side, 100mm below, 185 above, 0 to the front.

So for the WB you get a total space requirement of 980, 450, 350mm and
the Ideal you get 787, 400, 278

So the WB requires over one and a three quater times the volume of the
Ideal, which has has one and a half times the power.

Depends on the space available.

Err.. no - Think you will find the size of the boiler is pretty much
fixed irrespective of the space you have available.

--
Cheers,

John.

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"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

I think the Isar is wider.

Err.. no

The 24i Junior is 600, 400, 325mm (H, W, D) but that is only part of the
story. It also needs 25mm either side, 200mm below, 180mm above, and
25mm to the front.

The Ideal Isar HE 35 is 687, 390, 278mm (H, W, D) and requires
5mm either side, 100mm below, 185 above, 0 to the front.

So for the WB you get a total space requirement of 980, 450, 350mm and
the Ideal you get 787, 400, 278

So the WB requires over one and a three quater times the volume of the
Ideal, which has has one and a half times the power.

1.5 times the power. Is 35 kW 1.5 times more than 28kW?

Depends on the space available.

Err.. no - Think you will find the size of the boiler is pretty much
fixed irrespective of the space you have available.

The Isar is a condensing boiler, which in some cases cannot be fitted where
flats are concerned. It is also more reliable (so far) and simpler (no
3-way valve), although uses more gas being a regular boiler.

Just before the Isar came out I fitted an Ideal regular combi simply because
it was the only boiler that fitted the space. I'm not great fan of Ideal's
pre-mix burners. They tend to go boom far to frequently..

IMM wrote:

The 24i Junior is 600, 400, 325mm (H, W, D) but that is only part of the

1.5 times the power. Is 35 kW 1.5 times more than 28kW?

Nope, but it is about 1.5 x more than 24, which is waht I was using as
an example...

The Isar is a condensing boiler, which in some cases cannot be fitted where
flats are concerned. It is also more reliable (so far) and simpler (no
3-way valve), although uses more gas being a regular boiler.

Are you talking about two boilers in that sentance? It is not that clear.

The Isar being a condensing boiler will meet the minimum standards for
energy use as required by part L of the building regs. Since the WB Jr.
is in SEDBUK band D, it would suggest its sales opotunities are likely
to become limited in the near future.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

The 24i Junior is 600, 400, 325mm (H, W, D) but that is only part of the

1.5 times the power. Is 35 kW 1.5 times more than 28kW?

Nope, but it is about 1.5 x more than 24, which is waht I was using as
an example...

The Isar is a condensing boiler, which in some cases cannot be fitted
where
flats are concerned. It is also more reliable (so far) and simpler (no
3-way valve), although uses more gas being a regular boiler.

Are you talking about two boilers in that sentance? It is not that clear.


The Isar is a condensing boiler, which in some cases cannot be fitted where
flats are concerned. The W-B is also more reliable (so far) and simpler (no
3-way valve), although uses more gas being a regular boiler.

The Isar being a condensing boiler will meet the minimum standards for
energy use as required by part L of the building regs. Since the WB Jr.
is in SEDBUK band D, it would suggest its sales opotunities are likely
to become limited in the near future.

We all shall see before April.

IMM wrote:


The Isar is a condensing boiler, which in some cases cannot be fitted where
flats are concerned.

Why do you say that? Just because of the flue plume?



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

IMM wrote:


The Isar is a condensing boiler, which in some cases cannot be fitted
where flats are concerned.

Why do you say that? Just because of the flue plume?


I was wondering about that, I understood from browsing around the
condensing bowlers exhaust out steam. I thought a pipe could be run up
the side of the building, like the soil pipe.

I think what I may do is get a few people in like British Gas etc and see
what they say. The problem is my exsisting traditional bowler is very
small (and old), and is positioned right near the toilet - anything to
thick would stop you standing up the do the biz ;-)

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:


The Isar is a condensing boiler, which in some cases cannot be fitted
where
flats are concerned.

Why do you say that? Just because of the flue plume?

Yep. I see many problem after April, resulting in court cases.

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:43:19 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:


The Isar is a condensing boiler, which in some cases cannot be fitted
where
flats are concerned.

Why do you say that? Just because of the flue plume?

Yep. I see many problem after April, resulting in court cases.

That seems rather melodramatic.

I suppose if non-condensing boilers go off of the market altogether
and CORGI fitters are forced to fit condensing models and there are
cases where the plume (if any) is a problem, then there could be an
issue.

But who is going to complain, and to whom? The neighbours of the
person having the boiler installed? To the local authority for
nuisance? Possibly, although that would be tricky since at that
point the law would back the use of condensing products and they would
have been installed according to the maker's instructions and the
relevant standard.

If there are still non-condensing boilers on the market, the fitter
may well just recommend one because of the "risk of nuisance". Who
is going to ever catch up with that? Not the BCO because most
installations are self certified by the installer. Possibly there
could be an issue when the householder wants to sell, but then the
defence is that it was done to avoid a dispute with neighbours.

This really is another example of legislation for its own sake and
without thinking through the implications and considering the totality
of the situation. That is not to say that I don't think that
condensing boilers aren't a good idea, but at least appropriate
installation techniques and standards should have been put in place
to avoid technical problems before legislating to face save for Kyoto
commitments. Another Rocky horror show.....





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:11:55 +0100, gna03633 wrote:

I was just thinking about replacing our boiler, but we live in a small flat
where space is a premium. I have a very small traditional boiler, but I
realise the smallest combi will be bigger.


A quick trawl through my stock of downloaded manuals include the word
vertical.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

I suppose if non-condensing boilers go off of the market altogether
and CORGI fitters are forced to fit condensing models and there are
cases where the plume (if any) is a problem, then there could be an
issue.


How big can this plume be?

I live on the upper ground floor of a 4 storey town house, the boiler is on
the side wall where all the soil pipes are. Can this vent be ducted up the
side of the, there are is another building next door.

I am keen to get something that is energy efficent, but need something that
will fit into the 'tiny' space I have

ta
gna

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 21:27:08 +0100, gna03633
wrote:


I suppose if non-condensing boilers go off of the market altogether
and CORGI fitters are forced to fit condensing models and there are
cases where the plume (if any) is a problem, then there could be an
issue.


How big can this plume be?

It really depends on the boiler, and the outside temperature and
humidity, plus the flue arrangements.

Even a conventional boiler on a cold day will generate a plume into
the air.

Condensing boilers are fan driven, so the combustion products are
pushed out by the fan anyway.

I have seen a poor one on a cold day under full power, put out a plume
a metre long, dispersing into the air.

Equally, I have seen a good one, under the same conditions showing
virtually nothing.



I live on the upper ground floor of a 4 storey town house, the boiler is on
the side wall where all the soil pipes are. Can this vent be ducted up the
side of the, there are is another building next door.

Yes it can. Many condensing boilers can use 50mm plastic high
temperature waste pipe as an intake and a flue. You can run them
quite a number of metres (20 typically) from the boiler.


I am keen to get something that is energy efficent, but need something that
will fit into the 'tiny' space I have

ta
gna

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

gna03633 wrote:

How big can this plume be?

I think you woulf have to be pretty anal to get that worried about it.
We are not talking steam train here! Probably no more dramatic that a
boiling kettle.

I am keen to get something that is energy efficent, but need something that
will fit into the 'tiny' space I have

I had a similar requirement - I wanted a decent condesing combi that
would fit the rather small space left by a tiny gloworm system boiler.
Spent a long time trawling through specs to find something small enough,
and with enough power. I eventually found the Isar I mentioned above,
was nice to install and has performed very well since. I would be
interesting to know if you find any smaller.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
gna03633 wrote:

How big can this plume be?

I think you woulf have to be pretty anal to get that worried about it.
We are not talking steam train here! Probably no more dramatic that a
boiling kettle.

You have to be kidding. My condenser in winter when starting up can give a
plume about 2 to 3 foot long and very thick. Have one of these a few foot
from your flat window and you will be ****ed off.

I am keen to get something that is energy efficent, but need something
that
will fit into the 'tiny' space I have

I had a similar requirement - I wanted a decent condesing combi that
would fit the rather small space left by a tiny gloworm system boiler.
Spent a long time trawling through specs to find something small enough,
and with enough power. I eventually found the Isar I mentioned above,
was nice to install and has performed very well since. I would be
interesting to know if you find any smaller.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 21:27:08 +0100, gna03633
wrote:


How big can this plume be?

I live on the upper ground floor of a 4 storey town house, the boiler is on
the side wall where all the soil pipes are. Can this vent be ducted up the
side of the, there are is another building next door.

I am keen to get something that is energy efficent, but need something that
will fit into the 'tiny' space I have

Hi,

A lot of condensing boilers have a powered flue that give more choice
as where it can go.

If the boiler is run well below condensing temps I'd expect the plume
to be minimal. A boiler that can modulate it's output right down might
help and be worth a reasonable premium.

cheers,
Pete.

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:47:32 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
gna03633 wrote:

How big can this plume be?

I think you woulf have to be pretty anal to get that worried about it.
We are not talking steam train here! Probably no more dramatic that a
boiling kettle.

You have to be kidding. My condenser in winter when starting up can give a
plume about 2 to 3 foot long and very thick. Have one of these a few foot
from your flat window and you will be ****ed off.


Throw it away and buy a decent one.....



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:56:55 +0100, Pete C
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 21:27:08 +0100, gna03633
wrote:


How big can this plume be?

I live on the upper ground floor of a 4 storey town house, the boiler is on
the side wall where all the soil pipes are. Can this vent be ducted up the
side of the, there are is another building next door.

I am keen to get something that is energy efficent, but need something that
will fit into the 'tiny' space I have

Hi,

A lot of condensing boilers have a powered flue that give more choice
as where it can go.

If the boiler is run well below condensing temps I'd expect the plume
to be minimal. A boiler that can modulate it's output right down might
help and be worth a reasonable premium.

cheers,
Pete.

It's partly dependent on the power level as well as the temperature.

The greatest pluming will occur when starting from cold on a cold day
with low humidity under full power. Generally this only lasts for a
short time as the house and heating system warm up.

The design of the boiler has an influence as well, the new ones being
much better.

Most now modulate anyway so also helping


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote
| "IMM" wrote:
| I think you woulf have to be pretty anal to get that worried
| about it. We are not talking steam train here! Probably no
| more dramatic that a boiling kettle.
| You have to be kidding. My condenser in winter when starting up
| can give a plume about 2 to 3 foot long and very thick. Have one
| of these a few foot from your flat window and you will be ****ed
| off.
| Throw it away and buy a decent one.....

Are these things any worse than a tumble dryer vent (the sort of people who
hang the hose out of their ground-floor flat windows seem obsessed with
fragancing every passer-by with the Fresh Smell of Bounce)?

Owain

IMM wrote:

You have to be kidding. My condenser in winter when starting up can give a
plume about 2 to 3 foot long and very thick.

A little common sense in locating the flue and selecting its type will
resolve most problems. Once the boiler is running it will modulate down
after the system is up to temperature and the plume will get smaller
anyway*.

Have one of these a few foot from your flat window and you will be
****ed off.

Can't say it would bother me that much.


* unless some plonker has cocked up its closed loop control system by
sticking unwanted energy storage terms in the feeback loop that is!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:47:32 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
gna03633 wrote:

How big can this plume be?

I think you woulf have to be pretty anal to get that worried about it.
We are not talking steam train here! Probably no more dramatic that a
boiling kettle.

You have to be kidding. My condenser in winter when starting up can give
a
plume about 2 to 3 foot long and very thick. Have one of these a few
foot
from your flat window and you will be ****ed off.


Throw it away and buy a decent one.....

It doesn't go near any window

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Andy Hall" wrote
| "IMM" wrote:
| I think you woulf have to be pretty anal to get that worried
| about it. We are not talking steam train here! Probably no
| more dramatic that a boiling kettle.
| You have to be kidding. My condenser in winter when starting up
| can give a plume about 2 to 3 foot long and very thick. Have one
| of these a few foot from your flat window and you will be ****ed
| off.
| Throw it away and buy a decent one.....

Are these things any worse than a tumble dryer vent (the sort of people
who
hang the hose out of their ground-floor flat windows seem obsessed with
fragancing every passer-by with the Fresh Smell of Bounce)?

The plume can be quite thick and if near a window gives he appearance of
smoke passing. If too near it may enter a room. I see many problems with
these in flats, especially the older converted house types.

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:03:10 +0100, "Owain"
wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote
| "IMM" wrote:
| I think you woulf have to be pretty anal to get that worried
| about it. We are not talking steam train here! Probably no
| more dramatic that a boiling kettle.
| You have to be kidding. My condenser in winter when starting up
| can give a plume about 2 to 3 foot long and very thick. Have one
| of these a few foot from your flat window and you will be ****ed
| off.
| Throw it away and buy a decent one.....

Are these things any worse than a tumble dryer vent (the sort of people who
hang the hose out of their ground-floor flat windows seem obsessed with
fragancing every passer-by with the Fresh Smell of Bounce)?

Owain



Mmmm. There's at least one of those that makes me want to physically
puke.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:08:14 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

IMM wrote:

You have to be kidding. My condenser in winter when starting up can give a
plume about 2 to 3 foot long and very thick.

A little common sense in locating the flue and selecting its type will
resolve most problems. Once the boiler is running it will modulate down
after the system is up to temperature and the plume will get smaller
anyway*.

Have one of these a few foot from your flat window and you will be
****ed off.

Can't say it would bother me that much.


* unless some plonker has cocked up its closed loop control system by
sticking unwanted energy storage terms in the feeback loop that is!


:-)


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

I recently had brit gas come and quote to put CH in (robbers...thats another
story) and they now show you a little video on their laptops of a condensing
combi in operation ...believe me its more than a kettle steam train is
closer...... they advised that it went in the loft with a flue coming out
the roof so as not cause probs to my neighbours.
Nick
"IMM" wrote in message
...

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
gna03633 wrote:

How big can this plume be?

I think you woulf have to be pretty anal to get that worried about it.
We are not talking steam train here! Probably no more dramatic that a
boiling kettle.

You have to be kidding. My condenser in winter when starting up can give a
plume about 2 to 3 foot long and very thick. Have one of these a few foot
from your flat window and you will be ****ed off.

I am keen to get something that is energy efficent, but need something
that
will fit into the 'tiny' space I have

I had a similar requirement - I wanted a decent condesing combi that
would fit the rather small space left by a tiny gloworm system boiler.
Spent a long time trawling through specs to find something small enough,
and with enough power. I eventually found the Isar I mentioned above,
was nice to install and has performed very well since. I would be
interesting to know if you find any smaller.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , IMM writes

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
gna03633 wrote:

How big can this plume be?

I think you woulf have to be pretty anal to get that worried about it.
We are not talking steam train here! Probably no more dramatic that a
boiling kettle.

You have to be kidding. My condenser in winter when starting up can give a
plume about 2 to 3 foot long and very thick.

What, just one ?

--
geoff