"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 09/05/2021 13:54, JohnP wrote:



Just understanding the logic is a big help. Plumbers and Boilers
comes to mind. Many only seem to be able to relate to an old type of
system. Even a motorised valve seems to flumox them.

It's a good job I can look after my own heating system - I can't see
the average plumber understanding the motorised valve and timer/stat
per room, with mains operated valves, battery powered stats and 12V
switching via relays, with my own, home made PCBs.


But he learned how to wipe a lead joint to become Time Served.

I've wiped one or two lead joints (although the only lead we have left now
is the supply to the house), but I am definitely not a plumber - I don't
even know where my moleskin has gone.

The mole took it back.

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Dave Plowman (News) formulated the question :
They were often rented, because they were so expensive and because
there would then be a cost free ready repair option, when as they often
did, they broke down or needed adjustment.

And the rental company supplying a social service, then? ;-)

No different from having a service contract on your heating system. Long
term, the supplier always wins. And by a large margin.

Of course the supplier wins, they are never charities - they are a
business and need to make a profit.

Back in the day, many companies were set up as a source to rent TV's
and it was a sensible option to rent one.

Dave Plowman (News) formulated on Sunday :
Probably history. In the 50s (and earlier), plumbers were often also
electricians. Steel conduit is pretty similar to working with plumbing
iron barrel. In those days, the electrical side didn't take so much
learning.

....and joiners too before then, back in the days when the job involved
cables run in wooden 'trunking'.

Steve Walker pretended :
I've wiped one or two lead joints (although the only lead we have left now is
the supply to the house), but I am definitely not a plumber - I don't even
know where my moleskin has gone.

Me too, I used to love wiping joints and gained quite a good reputation
for the ability. By then it had become an almost obsolete skill. I last
needed to do one in this house, before it had a full refurbed back in
the early 80's.

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) formulated the question :
They were often rented, because they were so expensive and because
there would then be a cost free ready repair option, when as they often
did, they broke down or needed adjustment.

And the rental company supplying a social service, then? ;-)

No different from having a service contract on your heating system. Long
term, the supplier always wins. And by a large margin.

Of course the supplier wins, they are never charities - they are a
business and need to make a profit.

Back in the day, many companies were set up as a source to rent TV's
and it was a sensible option to rent one.

It was never anymore sensible to rent a TV over anything else. Like say a
car. At the end of the day, you pay for the service they provide.

Other thing was the own brand sets many of the rental companies supplied
were hardly state of the art, even in the day. Famously, the lack of a
black level clamp. And a pretty basic cabinet. Bit like a car maker only
offering a basic model.

--
*INDECISION is the key to FLEXIBILITY *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) formulated the question :
They were often rented, because they were so expensive and because
there would then be a cost free ready repair option, when as they
often did, they broke down or needed adjustment.

And the rental company supplying a social service, then? ;-)

No different from having a service contract on your heating system. Long
term, the supplier always wins. And by a large margin.

Of course the supplier wins, they are never charities - they are a
business and need to make a profit.


even charities need to cover their costs


Back in the day, many companies were set up as a source to rent TV's
and it was a sensible option to rent one.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) formulated the question :
They were often rented, because they were so expensive and because
there would then be a cost free ready repair option, when as they
often did, they broke down or needed adjustment.

And the rental company supplying a social service, then? ;-)

No different from having a service contract on your heating system.
Long term, the supplier always wins. And by a large margin.

Of course the supplier wins, they are never charities - they are a
business and need to make a profit.

Back in the day, many companies were set up as a source to rent TV's
and it was a sensible option to rent one.

It was never anymore sensible to rent a TV over anything else. Like say a
car. At the end of the day, you pay for the service they provide.

Other thing was the own brand sets many of the rental companies supplied
were hardly state of the art, even in the day. Famously, the lack of a
black level clamp. And a pretty basic cabinet. Bit like a car maker only
offering a basic model.

I can remember going to the Radio Show in 1963 to pick a tv for getting
BBC2. I only found one tv manufactuere who knew what a black level clamp
was; and yes, their set had one. It was the one I bought. I'm pretty sure
it was Pye.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 09/05/2021 11:24, tim... wrote:


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
JohnP wrote

Probably all made in the same factory in China.

China doesn’t work like that.

China doesn't work like what? (please don't snip too much!)

That everything from China isn't made in the same factory? Clearly,
obviously not

That a factory in China that makes quality branded goods, doesn't also
make knock-offs of the same item?

Nope, I assure that this is exactly what does happen

It is still often the same stuff produced on the same production line
though. It might be ripping off the branded item, but it is likely to be
exactly the same - just not counted in the total.

the knock-offs tend to be the ones made as branded product that didn't meet
quality control

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) formulated the question :
They were often rented, because they were so expensive and because
there would then be a cost free ready repair option, when as they
often
did, they broke down or needed adjustment.

And the rental company supplying a social service, then? ;-)

No different from having a service contract on your heating system.
Long
term, the supplier always wins. And by a large margin.

Of course the supplier wins, they are never charities - they are a
business and need to make a profit.

Back in the day, many companies were set up as a source to rent TV's
and it was a sensible option to rent one.

It was never anymore sensible to rent a TV over anything else.

That’s not right. Renting avoids the high up front cost.

Yes you end up paying more, but you do get the use
of the TV when you would otherwise not have that.

Like say a car.

The difference there is that you can walk, ride a bike,
use public transport etc. With TV the only real alternative
is to stand outside a shop window and watch that TV.

At the end of the day, you pay for the service they provide.

Other thing was the own brand sets many of the rental companies
supplied were hardly state of the art, even in the day. Famously,
the lack of a black level clamp. And a pretty basic cabinet. Bit
like a car maker only offering a basic model.

But that’s no big deal if the alternative is no TV.

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"tim..." wrote in message
...


"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 09/05/2021 11:24, tim... wrote:


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
JohnP wrote

Probably all made in the same factory in China.

China doesn’t work like that.

China doesn't work like what? (please don't snip too much!)

That everything from China isn't made in the same factory? Clearly,
obviously not

That a factory in China that makes quality branded goods, doesn't also
make knock-offs of the same item?

Nope, I assure that this is exactly what does happen

It is still often the same stuff produced on the same production line
though. It might be ripping off the branded item, but it is likely to be
exactly the same - just not counted in the total.

the knock-offs tend to be the ones made as branded product that didn't
meet quality control

Don’t believe with something like a kettle they get that many which don’t
meet quality control.

as recommended by someone on this group
i bought a Breville
which only heats a cup full of water
and so is quicker than heating a pint
and also saves electricity,
maybe enough to pay for itself!

[g]


On Thursday, May 6, 2021 at 11:28:10 PM UTC+1, Michael Chare wrote:
The element in our Russell Hobs kettle failed after the equivalent of
3-4 years use. The heating element is under the water container and
does not appear to be removable, unlike older kettles where the element
was in the water and could be replaced.

Many new kettles are of a similar design to the one that has failed, so
I thought I should buy a cheap one as it also probably can't be
repaired. I was able to get a cheap £12 one from Tesco. It has a
slightly lower power rating, 2.2Kw and a much higher minimum water
level. I wonder how well it will last

Have others had similar problems with this type of kettle?

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On Sat, 08 May 2021 19:23:07 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:


Built in obsolescence is a seemingly guaranteed feature of all these
Chinese manufactured 1.7l plastic 3KW jug kettles ime. Quite obviously,
the nominated point of failure is _never_ _ever_ the heating element


Just had to replace my mums Morrisons cheapo kettle. Element went
open circuit.

JOOI, may I ask after how many years of service?

My experience with these 3KW jug kettles over the past decade or so
(three failed kettles so far) with their directionally agnostic circular
bases suggests they don't select a 'poorly made' element, finely crafted
to fail with a comfortable margin just out of the basic one year
warranty, to ensure repeat sales, since the cost of the precision
required to achieve an 18 +/-5 months service life, would exceed that of
an element designed simply to last the more usual 6 to 10 years
(materials cost being pretty much the same in either case).

There are plenty of other candidate components within these kettles to
choose from in order to achieve the required 'silent failure' expiry
function. The obvious primary favourite being a cheap piece of plastic,
readily replaced under warranty should they have miscalculated and land
up inundated with in-warranty repairs that exhausts their stock of
replacement spare kettles held aside to cover such outliers on the left
of the peak of their calculated failure curve.

The manufacturers also include other failure modes to guard against the
effects of clever DIY repair/prevention activities, classically that of
leaking seals rather than rely on a potentially explosive failure of the
element which is reserved as a final last ditch measure to ensure a
continuing, if belated, demand for brand new replacement kettles. I'd
expect them to be aiming for a much wider margin of 6 to 10 years service
life for the heating element in this case since this won't be the
limiting factor in the kettle's designed service life rating.

That of course, doesn't preclude the occasional premature failure
(infant mortality) so some purchasers will find themselves either
claiming on that first year warranty or else resorting to the SOGA
against the retailer.

I realise you can choose a kettle that offers a five or six year
warranty but this typically costs more than three times the price of one
with a basic one year warranty and a life expectancy of 18 to 24 months
which is why I decided to shell out the extra £2.59 for an additional two
years warranty. Other than for their unconscionably short service life,
these Cookware kettles are a perfect fit to their function... imo


--
Johnny B Good

On 10/05/2021 21:59, George Miles wrote:
as recommended by someone on this group
i bought a Breville
which only heats a cup full of water
and so is quicker than heating a pint
and also saves electricity,
maybe enough to pay for itself!

Points:
1/. The amount of energy needed to heat a cup of water - or two or three
- for a minute - pales into insignificance beside the amount needed to
heat a house 24x7...
2/. Any waste heat heats the house anyway so its juts equivalent to a
bit of electrical or other heating you didn't need.

3/. Only an ArtStudent„¢ would say 'maybe' - the rest should have enough
theoretical knowledge to *work it out*.

E.g. there are ~250cc of water in a mugful. Average UK water temp is 9°C
and boiling is 100°C.

so that to boil one cupful takes 250 x 91 calories = 2.275 kcal =
0.00264582

At a cost of say 17p a unit, the cost of boiling one mug = 0.045p per
cup approximately.

So if you make 4 cups per day the cost of making them will be £0.65p per
year. Maybe the kettle might pay for itself in 100 years, but it wont
last that long..


PS it is also possible to not fill a kettle to the brim.

--
€œPuritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.€�

H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 10/05/2021 21:59, George Miles wrote:
as recommended by someone on this group
i bought a Breville
which only heats a cup full of water
and so is quicker than heating a pint
and also saves electricity,
maybe enough to pay for itself!

Points:

All mostly duds.

1/. The amount of energy needed to heat a cup of water - or two or three -
for a minute - pales into insignificance beside the amount needed to heat
a house 24x7...

Not in summer.

2/. Any waste heat heats the house anyway so its juts equivalent to a bit
of electrical or other heating you didn't need.

Again, not in summer.

3/. Only an ArtStudent„¢ would say 'maybe' - the rest should have enough
theoretical knowledge to *work it out*.

E.g. there are ~250cc of water in a mugful. Average UK water temp is 9°C
and boiling is 100°C.

so that to boil one cupful takes 250 x 91 calories = 2.275 kcal =
0.00264582

At a cost of say 17p a unit, the cost of boiling one mug = 0.045p per cup
approximately.

So if you make 4 cups per day the cost of making them will be £0.65p per
year. Maybe the kettle might pay for itself in 100 years, but it wont last
that long..


PS it is also possible to not fill a kettle to the brim.

And possible to heat the cup in the microwave.

On 11/05/2021 08:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/05/2021 21:59, George Miles wrote:
as recommended by someone on this group
i bought a Breville
which only heats a cup full of water
and so is quicker than heating a pint
and also saves electricity,
maybe enough to pay for itself!

Points:
1/. The amount of energy needed to heat a cup of water - or two or three
- for a minute - pales into insignificance beside the amount needed to
heat a house 24x7...
2/. Any waste heat heats the house anyway so its juts equivalent to a
bit of electrical or other heating you didn't need.

3/. Only an ArtStudent„¢ would say 'maybe' - the rest should have enough
theoretical knowledge to *work it out*.

E.g. there are ~250cc of water in a mugful. Average UK water temp is 9°C
and boiling is 100°C.

so that to boil one cupful takes 250 x 91 calories = 2.275 kcal =
0.00264582


Sorry but Sod's law has struck again

250 x 91 = 22.75 kCal


At a cost of say 17p a unit, the cost of boiling one mug = 0.045p per
cup approximately.

So if you make 4 cups per day the cost of making them will be £0.65p per
year. Maybe the kettle might pay for itself in 100 years, but it wont
last that long..


PS it is also possible to not fill a kettle to the brim.


Quite. I know of no kettle that requires a pint to cover the element.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 11 May 2021 at 08:05:42 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
wrote:

On 10/05/2021 21:59, George Miles wrote:
as recommended by someone on this group
i bought a Breville
which only heats a cup full of water
and so is quicker than heating a pint
and also saves electricity,
maybe enough to pay for itself!

it will, several times over if your household's kettle habits are anything
approaching what I see.

Points:
1/. The amount of energy needed to heat a cup of water - or two or three
- for a minute - pales into insignificance beside the amount needed to
heat a house 24x7...

it's still a saving.


2/. Any waste heat heats the house anyway so its juts equivalent to a
bit of electrical or other heating you didn't need.

3/. Only an ArtStudent„¢ would say 'maybe' - the rest should have enough
theoretical knowledge to *work it out*.

E.g. there are ~250cc of water in a mugful. Average UK water temp is 9°C
and boiling is 100°C.

so that to boil one cupful takes 250 x 91 calories = 2.275 kcal =
0.00264582

At a cost of say 17p a unit, the cost of boiling one mug = 0.045p per
cup approximately.

So if you make 4 cups per day the cost of making them will be £0.65p per
year. Maybe the kettle might pay for itself in 100 years, but it wont
last that long..

And if you were to scale that up by 60m-odd, that's quite a lot of energy


PS it is also possible to not fill a kettle to the brim.

+1, if only . . .

--
Cheers, Rob

On 11/05/2021 09:02, Robin wrote:
On 11/05/2021 08:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/05/2021 21:59, George Miles wrote:
as recommended by someone on this group
i bought a Breville
which only heats a cup full of water
and so is quicker than heating a pint
and also saves electricity,
maybe enough to pay for itself!

Points:
1/. The amount of energy needed to heat a cup of water - or two or
three - for a minute - pales into insignificance beside the amount
needed to heat a house 24x7...
2/. Any waste heat heats the house anyway so its juts equivalent to a
bit of electrical or other heating you didn't need.

3/. Only an ArtStudent„¢ would say 'maybe' - the rest should have
enough theoretical knowledge to *work it out*.

E.g. there are ~250cc of water in a mugful. Average UK water temp is
9°C and boiling is 100°C.

so that to boil one cupful takes 250 x 91 calories = 2.275 kcal =
0.00264582


Sorry but Sod's law has struck again

250 x 91 = 22.75 kCal


Bugger. Only the first cup of coffee.

Still it's a halfpenny a cup then

And £6.50 per year.



At a cost of say 17p a unit, the cost of boiling one mug = 0.045p per
cup approximately.

So if you make 4 cups per day the cost of making them will be £0.65p
per year. Maybe the kettle might pay for itself in 100 years, but it
wont last that long..


PS it is also possible to not fill a kettle to the brim.


Quite.Â* I know of no kettle that requires a pint to cover the element.



--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

On Tue, 11 May 2021 17:22:45 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

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"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
...


"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 09/05/2021 11:24, tim... wrote:


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
JohnP wrote

Probably all made in the same factory in China.

China doesn’t work like that.

China doesn't work like what? (please don't snip too much!)

That everything from China isn't made in the same factory? Clearly,
obviously not

That a factory in China that makes quality branded goods, doesn't also
make knock-offs of the same item?

Nope, I assure that this is exactly what does happen

It is still often the same stuff produced on the same production line
though. It might be ripping off the branded item, but it is likely to be
exactly the same - just not counted in the total.

the knock-offs tend to be the ones made as branded product that didn't
meet quality control

Don’t believe with something like a kettle they get that many which don’t
meet quality control.

with something that only costs 5.50 in the first place, I doubt there's a
market for knock-off kettles

The market for knock-offs exists with branded products, where there is a
high price charged for the branding, but also a very high threshold of
finish required

RJH wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Maybe the kettle might pay for itself in 100 years, but it wont
last that long..

And if you were to scale that up by 60m-odd, that's quite a lot of energy

Put the cold-brew in the fridge before you go to bed, rather than put
the kettle on after you get up ...

#MakeKettlesHistory

On 12/05/2021 08:15, Andy Burns wrote:
RJH wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Maybe the kettle might pay for itself in 100 years, but it wont
last that long..

And if you were to scale that up by 60m-odd, that's quite a lot of energy

No, it isn't

Not compared with everything else.

As I have remarked before , Britain's total electrical generation
amounts to half a dozen Hiroshima bombs *every day*.



--
Of what good are dead warriors? €¦ Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory €¦ The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

On Wed, 12 May 2021 08:15:24 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

RJH wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Maybe the kettle might pay for itself in 100 years, but it wont
last that long..

And if you were to scale that up by 60m-odd, that's quite a lot of energy

Put the cold-brew in the fridge before you go to bed, rather than put
the kettle on after you get up ...

#MakeKettlesHistory

I tried doing that once.

Once.

The only reason I drank the result is because I hate to waste anything
and I'm not convinced pouring coffee over plants is good for them.

Nick