From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
€œhomogenous north European, white, male, elite€�. The Times says several
institutions are adopting €œinclusive assessments€� and Hull University
says it will €œchallenge the status quo€� by dropping the requirement for
a high level of written and spoken English.

On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:
From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
€œhomogenous north European, white, male, elite€�. The Times says several
institutions are adopting €œinclusive assessments€� and Hull University
says it will €œchallenge the status quo€� by dropping the requirement for
a high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages. Exams/assessments are for candidates to demonstrate
a clear understanding and ability in their chosen subjects, not to test
their knowledge of a different subject. Why should someone be marked
down in Physics, for poor spelling, when they are showing an excellent
grasp of the subject?

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during
other exams.

In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:
From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
”homogenous north European, white, male, elite•. The Times says several
institutions are adopting ”inclusive assessments• and Hull University
says it will ”challenge the status quo• by dropping the requirement for
a high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages. Exams/assessments are for candidates to demonstrate
a clear understanding and ability in their chosen subjects, not to test
their knowledge of a different subject. Why should someone be marked
down in Physics, for poor spelling, when they are showing an excellent
grasp of the subject?

In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during
other exams.

MW or mW. It matters

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 12/04/2021 10:03, Steve Walker wrote:
On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:
Â*From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
€œhomogenous north European, white, male, elite€�. The Times says
several institutions are adopting €œinclusive assessments€� and Hull
University says it will €œchallenge the status quo€� by dropping the
requirement for a high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages. Exams/assessments are for candidates to demonstrate
a clear understanding and ability in their chosen subjects, not to test
their knowledge of a different subject. Why should someone be marked
down in Physics, for poor spelling, when they are showing an excellent
grasp of the subject?

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during
other exams.

When I went to university you couldn't get in without first having
passed the Use of English exam.

--
Colin Bignell

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:03:40 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:
From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
“homogenous north European, white, male, elite”. The Times says several
institutions are adopting “inclusive assessments” and Hull University
says it will “challenge the status quo” by dropping the requirement for
a high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages.

snip Tell that to the grammar / spelling Police here! ;-)

Cheers, T i m

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:
From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
€œhomogenous north European, white, male, elite€�. The Times says several
institutions are adopting €œinclusive assessments€� and Hull University
says it will €œchallenge the status quo€� by dropping the requirement for a
high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar, except
in languages. Exams/assessments are for candidates to demonstrate a clear
understanding and ability in their chosen subjects, not to test their
knowledge of a different subject. Why should someone be marked down in
Physics, for poor spelling, when they are showing an excellent grasp of
the subject?

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during other
exams.

It depends whether the poor spelling and grammar actually mar the
intelligibility. When I was at university in the early 80s, someone I knew
who was doing a computer-science course asked me to sanity-check a report
that he was writing, to see if it made *technical* sense. I remember it
because its title was "Huh! Interactive Languages Are Really Yuk" -
contrived to spell out Hilary, the name of his tutor whom I think he
fancied.

Well... the report took some wading through. There were spelling mistakes
all over, but I glossed over those: few of them made it difficult to
understand the report. What *did* cause great problems, to the extent that I
had real problems working out what he was trying to say, was his very poor
grammar and his partial sentences which petered out half way through. It
took me several hours to read a couple of pages, rather than a few minutes.
I found myself itching to rewrite the whole thing from the ground up, if
only to try and clarify in my own mind the gist of his report.

It was quite a shock to read something which was *so* illiterate from
someone who would have passed his A levels to get to university and who
spoke perfectly lucidly most of the time (apart from after a few pints, but
that applies to all of us!). Given the sneaky acronym in the title, I almost
wonder whether there was a secret code in his mistakes - the sort of thing
that Inspector Morse would spot in one of Colin Dexter's novels ;-)

charles wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages.

In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

Sulfide or sulfate according to IUPAC

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:22:03 +0100, T i m wrote:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:03:40 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:
From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
“homogenous north European, white, male, elite”. The Times says several
institutions are adopting “inclusive assessments” and Hull University
says it will “challenge the status quo” by dropping the requirement for
a high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages.

snip Tell that to the grammar / spelling Police here! ;-)

'Police' needn't be capitalised here.


--
Regards, Paul Herber
https://www.paulherber.co.uk/

On 12/04/2021 09:22, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:03:40 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:
On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:

From "The Week":

University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
'homogeneous north European, white, male, elite'. The Times says several
institutions are adopting 'inclusive assessments' and Hull University
says it will 'challenge the status quo' by dropping the requirement for
a high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages.

snip Tell that to the grammar / spelling Police here! ;-)

Plenty of people have died due to medical staff not being able to read
or understand a doctor's notes.

--
Spike

On 12/04/2021 10:15, charles wrote:
In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:
From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
€�homogenous north European, white, male, elite€¢. The Times says several
institutions are adopting €�inclusive assessments€¢ and Hull University
says it will €�challenge the status quo€¢ by dropping the requirement for
a high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages. Exams/assessments are for candidates to demonstrate
a clear understanding and ability in their chosen subjects, not to test
their knowledge of a different subject. Why should someone be marked
down in Physics, for poor spelling, when they are showing an excellent
grasp of the subject?

In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

or sulfate

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during
other exams.

MW or mW. It matters

yes.


--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
charles wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages.

In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

Sulfide or sulfate according to IUPAC

could well be, I never learned chemisty

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

charles wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

charles wrote:

In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

Sulfide or sulfate according to IUPAC

could well be, I never learned chemisty

It only changed from the English to American spelling in 1990.

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:03:40 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during
other exams.

A good friend of mine is dyslexic. During his Ph.D. in CS, he wrote a
number of Algol programs. We moved from an ICL/Elliott 4130 to an ICL
2960.

All his programs failed to compile. More than one problem, but all the
same cause. For example, he had spelled UNTIL as UNTILL. He had
previously got away with it, because the 4130 compiler only checked the
first four characters of reserved words (24 bit machine, 6 bit upper case
only internal code).



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 12/04/2021 10:03, Steve Walker wrote:
On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:
Â*From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
€œhomogenous north European, white, male, elite€�. The Times says
several institutions are adopting €œinclusive assessments€� and Hull
University says it will €œchallenge the status quo€� by dropping the
requirement for a high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages. Exams/assessments are for candidates to demonstrate
a clear understanding and ability in their chosen subjects, not to test
their knowledge of a different subject. Why should someone be marked
down in Physics, for poor spelling, when they are showing an excellent
grasp of the subject?

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during
other exams.


I wonder if Hull and other universities have consulted potential
employers here and abroad. With English now the language of business as
well as science graduates from Hull might be at a disadvantage in the
jobs market compared with those from China, India etc who can spell and
write clearly.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 12/04/2021 10:03, Steve Walker wrote:
On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:
Â*From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
€œhomogenous north European, white, male, elite€�. The Times says
several institutions are adopting €œinclusive assessments€� and Hull
University says it will €œchallenge the status quo€� by dropping the
requirement for a high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages. Exams/assessments are for candidates to demonstrate
a clear understanding and ability in their chosen subjects, not to test
their knowledge of a different subject. Why should someone be marked
down in Physics, for poor spelling, when they are showing an excellent
grasp of the subject?

Indeed and that has generally been the case IME. With technical subjects
it's important that you can be clear, but inaccurate spelling does not
usually hinder understanding. It does help if you can string a lucid
sentence together though for the more wordy sections - especially on
subjects like computer science.

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during
other exams.

Just as well, otherwise I would have been well screwed in every subject!

When I did English GCE, it was a split lit/lang course, where the lit
section was all essay based and done as course work (and at least 2 of
the essays had to be done under exam conditions). All the language parts
were in the final exams. Use of language and grammar were important in
all parts, but spelling was only marked in the language exam part.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:35:38 +0100, Paul Herber
wrote:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:22:03 +0100, T i m wrote:

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:03:40 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:
From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
“homogenous north European, white, male, elite”. The Times says several
institutions are adopting “inclusive assessments” and Hull University
says it will “challenge the status quo” by dropping the requirement for
a high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages.

snip Tell that to the grammar / spelling Police here! ;-)

'Police' needn't be capitalised here.

No, you are right. I would capitalise the real Police out of respect
so did so out of habit (where it wouldn't apply to the d-i-y spelling
/ grammar police).

Cheers, T i m

On 12/04/2021 11:10, Bob Eager wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:03:40 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during
other exams.

A good friend of mine is dyslexic. During his Ph.D. in CS, he wrote a
number of Algol programs. We moved from an ICL/Elliott 4130 to an ICL
2960.

It was programming that taught me to spell words like "procedure" :-)

All his programs failed to compile. More than one problem, but all the
same cause. For example, he had spelled UNTIL as UNTILL. He had
previously got away with it, because the 4130 compiler only checked the
first four characters of reserved words (24 bit machine, 6 bit upper case
only internal code).

Must admit I don't think I have used a compiler that worked quite like
that...

(although I have used plenty that ignore more than a variable number of
significant characters on identifier names (like many CORAL 66 compilers
that only read the first 12 characters), and that is whole class of
subtle bugs just waiting to happen!)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 12/04/2021 11:22, Robin wrote:
On 12/04/2021 10:03, Steve Walker wrote:
On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:
Â*From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
€œhomogenous north European, white, male, elite€�. The Times says
several institutions are adopting €œinclusive assessments€� and Hull
University says it will €œchallenge the status quo€� by dropping the
requirement for a high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages. Exams/assessments are for candidates to
demonstrate a clear understanding and ability in their chosen
subjects, not to test their knowledge of a different subject. Why
should someone be marked down in Physics, for poor spelling, when they
are showing an excellent grasp of the subject?

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during
other exams.


I wonder if Hull and other universities have consulted potential
employers here and abroad.Â* With English now the language of business as
well as science graduates from Hull might be at a disadvantage in the
jobs market compared with those from China, India etc who can spell and
write clearly.


When Karoun Chandouk joined the Sky F1 commentary team, it was
noticeable that he was the only one who knew that the correct plural of
'apex; was 'apices'.

I have noticed that no one uses the plural cases of verbs. I think its
these pidgin spiking wogs which is the problem.;-)

And 'with' mas morphed via 'wiv' into ...'iv and then 'of'.
so one is 'bored of' being 'fed up of'



--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
A good friend of mine is dyslexic. During his Ph.D. in CS, he wrote a
number of Algol programs. We moved from an ICL/Elliott 4130 to an ICL
2960.

It was programming that taught me to spell words like "procedure" :-)

All his programs failed to compile. More than one problem, but all the
same cause. For example, he had spelled UNTIL as UNTILL. He had
previously got away with it, because the 4130 compiler only checked the
first four characters of reserved words (24 bit machine, 6 bit upper case
only internal code).

Must admit I don't think I have used a compiler that worked quite like
that...

(although I have used plenty that ignore more than a variable number of
significant characters on identifier names (like many CORAL 66 compilers
that only read the first 12 characters), and that is whole class of subtle
bugs just waiting to happen!)

He was lucky that his dyslexia only made him mangle words. I could imagine
some people would also have problems getting the syntax and the algebra
correct, which would be harder to spot and to correct.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
And 'with' mas morphed via 'wiv' into ...'iv and then 'of'.
so one is 'bored of' being 'fed up of'

You "should of" corrected your typo "mas" to "was" ;-)

On 12/04/2021 11:44, NY wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
A good friend of mine is dyslexic. During his Ph.D. in CS, he wrote a
number of Algol programs. We moved from an ICL/Elliott 4130 to an ICL
2960.

It was programming that taught me to spell words like "procedure" :-)

All his programs failed to compile. More than one problem, but all the
same cause. For example, he had spelled UNTIL as UNTILL. He had
previously got away with it, because the 4130 compiler only checked the
first four characters of reserved words (24 bit machine, 6 bit upper
case
only internal code).

Must admit I don't think I have used a compiler that worked quite like
that...

(although I have used plenty that ignore more than a variable number
of significant characters on identifier names (like many CORAL 66
compilers that only read the first 12 characters), and that is whole
class of subtle bugs just waiting to happen!)

He was lucky that his dyslexia only made him mangle words. I could
imagine some people would also have problems getting the syntax and the
algebra correct, which would be harder to spot and to correct.

I wasted a day failing to Assemble my first (Z80) Assembler: I coped
examples straight out of the manual exactly as they appeared.
That was my mistake. An ArtStudent„¢ had been there before me and
carefully added an nice looking border of white space... once I removed
all the leading spaces at the start of every line, it worked....

--
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule.
€“ H. L. Mencken, American journalist, 1880-1956

On 12/04/2021 10:22, Robin wrote:

I wonder if Hull and other universities have consulted potential
employers here and abroad. With English now the language of business as
well as science graduates from Hull might be at a disadvantage in the
jobs market compared with those from China, India etc who can spell and
write clearly.

Some 50 years ago a young Danish aeronautical engineer came to visit our
lab to discuss a problem of mutual interest, and attend the same
conference in London that we were going to. After the conference was
over we took him along to a pub. During the course of the evening I
commented that his English was very good. He put this down to the best
technical and scientific books and journals being written in English,
and if you wanted to progress you had to learn the language so they
could be read and understood.

If British universities are going to turn out educated scientists and
engineers that are otherwise semi-illiterate, then the source of leading
information will shift elsewhere and the country will sink that much lower.

--
Spike

On 12/04/2021 11:45, NY wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
And 'with' mas morphed via 'wiv'Â* into ...'iv and then 'of'.
so one is 'bored of' being 'fed up of'

You "should of" corrected your typo "mas" to "was" ;-)

Typos are one thing. we can agree that that was wrong

But people on the telly say 'the police *is* looking for a criminal'.

What, all of them, as a unitary block?

I bet a majority of posters here can't see what is wrong with that.

--
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule.
€“ H. L. Mencken, American journalist, 1880-1956

On 12/04/2021 11:51, Tim Streater wrote:
On 12 Apr 2021 at 11:49:06 BST, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 12/04/2021 11:44, NY wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
A good friend of mine is dyslexic. During his Ph.D. in CS, he wrote a
number of Algol programs. We moved from an ICL/Elliott 4130 to an ICL
2960.

It was programming that taught me to spell words like "procedure" :-)

All his programs failed to compile. More than one problem, but all the
same cause. For example, he had spelled UNTIL as UNTILL. He had
previously got away with it, because the 4130 compiler only checked the
first four characters of reserved words (24 bit machine, 6 bit upper
case
only internal code).

Must admit I don't think I have used a compiler that worked quite like
that...

(although I have used plenty that ignore more than a variable number
of significant characters on identifier names (like many CORAL 66
compilers that only read the first 12 characters), and that is whole
class of subtle bugs just waiting to happen!)

He was lucky that his dyslexia only made him mangle words. I could
imagine some people would also have problems getting the syntax and the
algebra correct, which would be harder to spot and to correct.

I wasted a day failing to Assemble my first (Z80) Assembler: I coped
examples straight out of the manual exactly as they appeared.
That was my mistake. An ArtStudent„¢ had been there before me and
carefully added an nice looking border of white space... once I removed
all the leading spaces at the start of every line, it worked....

It's only labels that start in Col 1, Shirley.

Not in this assembler.


--
€œIt is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
authorities are wrong.€�

ۥ Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

On 12/04/2021 10:45, NY wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote

And 'with' mas morphed via 'wiv' into ...'iv and then 'of'.
so one is 'bored of' being 'fed up of'

You "should of" corrected your typo "mas" to "was" ;-)

Or even 'has', innit!

--
Spike

On 12/04/2021 11:51, Spike wrote:
On 12/04/2021 10:22, Robin wrote:

I wonder if Hull and other universities have consulted potential
employers here and abroad. With English now the language of business as
well as science graduates from Hull might be at a disadvantage in the
jobs market compared with those from China, India etc who can spell and
write clearly.

Some 50 years ago a young Danish aeronautical engineer came to visit our
lab to discuss a problem of mutual interest, and attend the same
conference in London that we were going to. After the conference was
over we took him along to a pub. During the course of the evening I
commented that his English was very good. He put this down to the best
technical and scientific books and journals being written in English,
and if you wanted to progress you had to learn the language so they
could be read and understood.

If British universities are going to turn out educated scientists and
engineers that are otherwise semi-illiterate, then the source of leading
information will shift elsewhere and the country will sink that much lower.

My bilingual nephew says that Kant is easier to read in English than the
German in which it was written..

I think English is a wonderful mix of Romance and Germanic languages and
has benefited mightily from cultural appropriation.

Pig (Nordic) Swine(Germanic) and Pork (Romance/French) shows us the real
value of being able to say the same thing in a common vulgar way, and
unpleasant way, and a upper class Norman, toff, sort of way..

And where would we be without our bungalows and boomerangs?


--
€œIt is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
authorities are wrong.€�

ۥ Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

charles wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
charles wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages.
In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

Sulfide or sulfate according to IUPAC

could well be, I never learned chemisty

Any time you're having trouble reaching a reagent
on the shelf, you can stand on a copy of this to
make you taller :-) Mine is the 1973-1974 edition.

https://hackaday.com/wp-content/uplo.../12/crc600.png

Paul

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
My bilingual nephew says that Kant is easier to read in English than the
German in which it was written..

My dad had to go to a French-speaking part of Canada and the man he was
seeing took him home for dinner where he met the colleague's wife and
children. All of them were bilingual English and French. They sometimes
spoke French to each other. However he noticed that the children *always*
spoke English when they were playing. He asked them why and they said that
they found English to be a better language for expressing themselves because
there were more ways of saying *almost* the same thing with subtle
differences (except they may not have put it so eloquently at the age of
five!).

On 12/04/2021 11:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Pig (Nordic) Swine(Germanic) and Pork (Romance/French) shows us the real
value of being able to say the same thing in a common vulgar way, and
unpleasant way, and a upper class Norman, toff, sort of way..


I think it's totally appropriate that we use German words for the animal
(cow, pig etc) for the animal and French for the food (beef, pork etc).

Another Dave

--
Change nospam to techie

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 11:23:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during
other exams.

Just as well, otherwise I would have been well screwed in every subject!

Likewise.

The thing is, 'some people' can just absorb this sort of (often) un
intuitive (eg, non phonetic) spelling whist others can't.

When I question our daughter (or the Mrs) *why* they can't remember
the route to somewhere they have been once, they ask me why I still
can't spell words I must have written thousands of times.

The reason I haven't 'remembered' is in many cases the same reason I
couldn't remember the mobile phone number I've had for ~15 years (till
very recently) it's because I didn't need to because there were often
ways of gleaning such that were more reliable (spell checkers, phone
books etc).

When I did English GCE, it was a split lit/lang course, where the lit
section was all essay based and done as course work (and at least 2 of
the essays had to be done under exam conditions). All the language parts
were in the final exams. Use of language and grammar were important in
all parts, but spelling was only marked in the language exam part.

I think I may have had similar in English 'O' level and whilst I
enjoyed the classes and got average marks, I would often be let down
by 'bad spelling'.

But what is bad spelling but an inability to remember a sequence of
letters, some of which don't follow any tools used to take away any
ambiguity?

When reading something (on a subject I have some knowledge of) I will
often spot anything that either doesn't make sense but may well
completely miss spelling mistakes on *some* words.

If I think that anyone else reading such might then question the
'professionalism' of the writer (say on their web / sales site) then I
might feed such back in case they might like to adjust what they had
written.

The last was the Odroid N2+ I bought as the host for my Home Assistant
where the advert suggested that it 'came with' a part in the 'bundle'
when it actually did not (well, not included in the price), making it
slightly misleading / confusing. I mentioned this in general pre sale
correspondence and they confirmed it wasn't as clear as it could be
and they would feed it back to the marketing / web boys (not that they
seem to have changed it yet). ;-)

https://www.odroid.co.uk/Home-Automa...roduct_id=1058

"What’s in the bundle

Black Metal powder-coated case
ODROID N2+ with 4GByte RAM
eMMC Card storage with Home Assistant pre-installed
RTC backup battery
Power adapter (12V/2A)

Storage 1 x eMMC connector 1 x microSD slot (DS/HS modes up to UHS-I
SDR104) - eMMC cARD Preinstalled"

Except, no eMMC card is included in the 'price' bundle at all so maybe
the headline price should read 'Starting from and the price of the
smallest card'? However, I don't think you can complete the order
without selecting at least one from the list of capacities.


Cheers, T i m

NY wrote:
It was quite a shock to read something which was *so* illiterate from
someone who would have passed his A levels to get to university ...

When I went though secondary school, it was not uncommon for
pupils on the science/maths side of the distribution to have
dropped any subject that required them to write essays; just
as the other "humanities" group had dropped science and
maths subjects as soon as possible; naturally, this greatly
exacerbated the weaknesses of both groups.

#Paul

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 12:08:40 +0100, Another Dave
wrote:

On 12/04/2021 11:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Pig (Nordic) Swine(Germanic) and Pork (Romance/French) shows us the real
value of being able to say the same thing in a common vulgar way, and
unpleasant way, and a upper class Norman, toff, sort of way..


I think it's totally appropriate that we use German words for the animal
(cow, pig etc) for the animal and French for the food (beef, pork etc).

The latter being better for maintaining the cognitive dissonance when
people are buying a nicely presented and comodified chunk of flesh in
a packet from the supermarket.

The labels on said packets may show a 'happy pig' standing in a field
(that most pigs never see of course), not the unhappy pig thrashing
about, desperately trying to survive in the gas chamber or having it's
throat cut.

They don't (or choose not to) consider that all 'pork' (/bacon) has to
come from individual, intelligent, social, trusting pigs.

If only all the words used around this whole 'industry' of animal
suffering, death and exploitation where more honest ...

Cheers, T i m

charles wrote:
Why should someone be marked down in Physics, for poor spelling,
when they are showing an excellent grasp of the subject?

In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

I wouldn't mark down for bad spelling per se, but I do mark down for
lack of clarity, illegibility, or ambiguity (e.g. taking your example,
what should someone think the miselpting "sulphade" was?). I also
emphasise to students the need to make what they produce easy to
understand, so as to reduce the likelihood of misunderstanding by
either markers, or some putative future colleague or employer.

Generally, misspellings are not a significant issue; more interesting
is the students who can solve problems correctly ... whilst also
being more or less incapable of explaining how or why they managed
to do so :-)

#Paul

On 12/04/2021 11:54, Tim Streater wrote:
On 12 Apr 2021 at 11:51:52 BST, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 12/04/2021 11:45, NY wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
And 'with' mas morphed via 'wiv'Â* into ...'iv and then 'of'.
so one is 'bored of' being 'fed up of'

You "should of" corrected your typo "mas" to "was" ;-)

Typos are one thing. we can agree that that was wrong

But people on the telly say 'the police *is* looking for a criminal'.

What, all of them, as a unitary block?

I bet a majority of posters here can't see what is wrong with that.

Are "the police" countable? That is, are there less or fewer of them? I'd
agree that policemen and women are countable.

or constable even :-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Monday, 12 April 2021 at 13:00:12 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/04/2021 11:54, Tim Streater wrote:
On 12 Apr 2021 at 11:51:52 BST, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 12/04/2021 11:45, NY wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
And 'with' mas morphed via 'wiv' into ...'iv and then 'of'.
so one is 'bored of' being 'fed up of'

You "should of" corrected your typo "mas" to "was" ;-)

Typos are one thing. we can agree that that was wrong

But people on the telly say 'the police *is* looking for a criminal'.

What, all of them, as a unitary block?

I bet a majority of posters here can't see what is wrong with that.

Are "the police" countable? That is, are there less or fewer of them? I'd
agree that policemen and women are countable.

or constable even :-)

Yeah they are good at landscape painting too.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 12/04/2021 12:09, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 11:23:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during
other exams.

Just as well, otherwise I would have been well screwed in every subject!

Likewise.

The thing is, 'some people' can just absorb this sort of (often) un
intuitive (eg, non phonetic) spelling whist others can't.

When I question our daughter (or the Mrs) *why* they can't remember
the route to somewhere they have been once, they ask me why I still
can't spell words I must have written thousands of times.

The reason I haven't 'remembered' is in many cases the same reason I
couldn't remember the mobile phone number I've had for ~15 years (till
very recently) it's because I didn't need to because there were often
ways of gleaning such that were more reliable (spell checkers, phone
books etc).

Spelling requires a set of cognitive pattern recognition skills that not
everyone has (including me!), however as with many things, if you have
the skills it can be difficult to comprehend why others might find it so
difficult.

The best comparison I have found that gives them a "feel" for the
complexity, is to point out that you asking me to learn the spelling of
a list of words, would be for me a task of similar complexity to me
asking you to remember a similar length list of phone numbers. I.e.
something that you would be forced to remember as a special case for each.

When I did English GCE, it was a split lit/lang course, where the lit
section was all essay based and done as course work (and at least 2 of
the essays had to be done under exam conditions). All the language parts
were in the final exams. Use of language and grammar were important in
all parts, but spelling was only marked in the language exam part.

I think I may have had similar in English 'O' level and whilst I
enjoyed the classes and got average marks, I would often be let down
by 'bad spelling'.

But what is bad spelling but an inability to remember a sequence of
letters, some of which don't follow any tools used to take away any
ambiguity?

When reading something (on a subject I have some knowledge of) I will
often spot anything that either doesn't make sense but may well
completely miss spelling mistakes on *some* words.

Yup, I find in many cases I can read through something generally badly
spelt and not even notice.

Although I will tend to notice poor grammar far more readily, even where
it's spelling related (say using there in place of their, or weather in
place of whether etc.

If I think that anyone else reading such might then question the
'professionalism' of the writer (say on their web / sales site) then I
might feed such back in case they might like to adjust what they had
written.

Indeed - and to be fair they have a point, but it's another case of
one's own abilities skewing perception. If they find it easy to proof
read a page and spot all the spelling errors, they they will tend to
assume that someone not correcting them is just being lazy / sloppy.

The last was the Odroid N2+ I bought as the host for my Home Assistant
where the advert suggested that it 'came with' a part in the 'bundle'
when it actually did not (well, not included in the price), making it
slightly misleading / confusing. I mentioned this in general pre sale
correspondence and they confirmed it wasn't as clear as it could be
and they would feed it back to the marketing / web boys (not that they
seem to have changed it yet). ;-)

https://www.odroid.co.uk/Home-Automa...roduct_id=1058

Yup I see what you mean - pricing the entry level at £135 including the
4GB device, and then offering upgrades to 32, 64, and 128GB devices at
extra cost would probably have been better.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

charles formulated on Monday :
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
charles wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages.

In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

Sulfide or sulfate according to IUPAC

could well be, I never learned chemisty

I did, one of my favourite subjects, but unused I promptly forgot most
of it :-(

Spike wrote :
If British universities are going to turn out educated scientists and
engineers that are otherwise semi-illiterate, then the source of leading
information will shift elsewhere and the country will sink that much lower.

+ 1

We need to set the standard, not lower the standard to the lowest
common denominator.

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 13:36:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

The reason I haven't 'remembered' is in many cases the same reason I
couldn't remember the mobile phone number I've had for ~15 years (till
very recently) it's because I didn't need to because there were often
ways of gleaning such that were more reliable (spell checkers, phone
books etc).

Spelling requires a set of cognitive pattern recognition skills that not
everyone has (including me!), however as with many things, if you have
the skills it can be difficult to comprehend why others might find it so
difficult.

Quite.

The best comparison I have found that gives them a "feel" for the
complexity, is to point out that you asking me to learn the spelling of
a list of words, would be for me a task of similar complexity to me
asking you to remember a similar length list of phone numbers. I.e.
something that you would be forced to remember as a special case for each.

For me it's not quite as bad as that as I'm generally ok with anything
that is phonetic.

snip

When reading something (on a subject I have some knowledge of) I will
often spot anything that either doesn't make sense but may well
completely miss spelling mistakes on *some* words.

Yup, I find in many cases I can read through something generally badly
spelt and not even notice.

But then I guess that the focus (on technical content) may distract
from 'checking' for spelling (if they don't pop out at you). A classic
one seen here is 'teh' instead of 'the'?

Although I will tend to notice poor grammar far more readily, even where
it's spelling related (say using there in place of their, or weather in
place of whether etc.

I think I can, again if I'm not preoccupied on the content (like when
reading the instructions trying to get something working that I need
working quickly).

If I think that anyone else reading such might then question the
'professionalism' of the writer (say on their web / sales site) then I
might feed such back in case they might like to adjust what they had
written.

Indeed - and to be fair they have a point, but it's another case of
one's own abilities skewing perception. If they find it easy to proof
read a page and spot all the spelling errors, they they will tend to
assume that someone not correcting them is just being lazy / sloppy.

Agreed.

The last was the Odroid N2+ I bought as the host for my Home Assistant
where the advert suggested that it 'came with' a part in the 'bundle'
when it actually did not (well, not included in the price), making it
slightly misleading / confusing. I mentioned this in general pre sale
correspondence and they confirmed it wasn't as clear as it could be
and they would feed it back to the marketing / web boys (not that they
seem to have changed it yet). ;-)

https://www.odroid.co.uk/Home-Automa...roduct_id=1058

Yup I see what you mean -

Good. ;-)

pricing the entry level at £135 including the
4GB device, and then offering upgrades to 32, 64, and 128GB devices at
extra cost would probably have been better.

Yes. When I've seen that sort of presentation before that's exactly
what they have done where anything above the base offering is '+£xxx
extra' for each 'upgrade'.

The thing that makes it even more 'strange' there is that the onboard
RAM isn't changeable, the PSU is ok as that's just a country thing but
you *can* run it from SSD but can't buy the bundle without an eMMC?

I guess the bundle means the unit, inc PSU and HA installed on the
eMMC of your choice, as opposed to buying the unit, PSU, eMMC with a
base OS and you having to install HA yourself:

https://www.odroid.co.uk/index.php?r...y&path=246_239

Back on the words / spelling thing, I am reminded constantly (TV and
ITRW) how many people *say* 'anythinK' but I wonder what percentage of
them would write is like that?

And when young my parents corrected me if I ever said 'we was' and why
it seems so strange that so many people also seem to get that wrong?

Cheers, T i m

On 12/04/2021 12:03, Paul wrote:
charles wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
charles wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages.
In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

Sulfide or sulfate according to IUPAC

could well be, I never learned chemisty

Any time you're having trouble reaching a reagent
on the shelf, you can stand on a copy of this to
make you taller :-) Mine is the 1973-1974 edition.

https://hackaday.com/wp-content/uplo.../12/crc600.png

I haven't seen the "Chemical Rubber Company" handbook in many a long
year. It was a remarkable source of chemical and physical information
50+ years ago!

--

Jeff