I hired an electrician to do EICRs for the tenanted flats at my old
office. He has produced certificates with a one year renewal, rather
than the usual five years.

There's nothing 'electrical' to justify this. He just says that the
tenant may leave, and then he thinks I should get a new certificate "in
case the tenant has modified the electrics".

Is he right, or has he invented a little dodge in the hope of having
ongoing work? If so, apart from refusing to pay his bill, is there any
way to get him to reissue the EICRs with a five year renewal?

On 31/03/2021 20:32, GB wrote:
I hired an electrician to do EICRs for the tenanted flats at my old
office. He has produced certificates with a one year renewal, rather
than the usual five years.

There's nothing 'electrical' to justify this. He just says that the
tenant may leave, and then he thinks I should get a new certificate "in
case the tenant has modified the electrics".

Is he right, or has he invented a little dodge in the hope of having
ongoing work?Â* If so, apart from refusing to pay his bill, is there any
way to get him to reissue the EICRs with a five year renewal?







did you have any C codes at all on the EICR and if so what were they?

But it is the first I've heard of this 1 year thing.....

(I had an EICR done on my rental house and that was issued for 5 years
and I have 4 C3 advisories on it......

S.

On 31/03/2021 20:37, SH wrote:
On 31/03/2021 20:32, GB wrote:
I hired an electrician to do EICRs for the tenanted flats at my old
office. He has produced certificates with a one year renewal, rather
than the usual five years.

There's nothing 'electrical' to justify this. He just says that the
tenant may leave, and then he thinks I should get a new certificate
"in case the tenant has modified the electrics".

Is he right, or has he invented a little dodge in the hope of having
ongoing work?Â* If so, apart from refusing to pay his bill, is there
any way to get him to reissue the EICRs with a five year renewal?







did you have any C codes at all on the EICR and if so what were they?

But it is the first I've heard of this 1 year thing.....

(I had an EICR done on my rental house and that was issued for 5 years
and I have 4 C3 advisories on it......

S.


Just a C3 saying "4.4 Fuse board is made from a combustible material".

On 31/03/2021 20:32, GB wrote:
I hired an electrician to do EICRs for the tenanted flats at my old
office. He has produced certificates with a one year renewal, rather
than the usual five years.

There's nothing 'electrical' to justify this. He just says that the
tenant may leave, and then he thinks I should get a new certificate "in
case the tenant has modified the electrics".

Is he right, or has he invented a little dodge in the hope of having
ongoing work?Â* If so, apart from refusing to pay his bill, is there any
way to get him to reissue the EICRs with a five year renewal?


Contact his CPS?

FWIW I used to think the "next inspection date" was just a
recommendation. But it sure ain't now for landlords. The regs make
explicit that your EICR would only be valid for 1 year.




--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 31/03/2021 21:08, Robin wrote:
On 31/03/2021 20:32, GB wrote:
I hired an electrician to do EICRs for the tenanted flats at my old
office. He has produced certificates with a one year renewal, rather
than the usual five years.

There's nothing 'electrical' to justify this. He just says that the
tenant may leave, and then he thinks I should get a new certificate
"in case the tenant has modified the electrics".

Is he right, or has he invented a little dodge in the hope of having
ongoing work?Â* If so, apart from refusing to pay his bill, is there
any way to get him to reissue the EICRs with a five year renewal?


Contact his CPS?

What's a CPS?

FWIW I used to think the "next inspection date" was just a
recommendation.Â* But it sure ain't now for landlords.Â* The regs make
explicit that your EICR would only be valid for 1 year.

GB wrote:

What's a CPS?

competent persons scheme (NICEIC, NAPIT, etc)

GB wrote:
On 31/03/2021 21:08, Robin wrote:
Contact his CPS?

What's a CPS?

Competent Person Scheme. One of:

NICEIC or Elecsa (both owned by Certsure)
NAPIT or Stroma (both owned by NAPIT)

They all have databases of registered tradespeople. Look him up and see
where he is registered.

I think you can do EICRs without being on a CPS, since that's primarily for
Part P. But it would be rather telling if so (particularly if he proposes
doing remedial work himself).

Theo

On 31/03/2021 22:20, Theo wrote:
GB wrote:
On 31/03/2021 21:08, Robin wrote:
Contact his CPS?

What's a CPS?

Competent Person Scheme. One of:

NICEIC or Elecsa (both owned by Certsure)
NAPIT or Stroma (both owned by NAPIT)

They all have databases of registered tradespeople. Look him up and see
where he is registered.

I think you can do EICRs without being on a CPS, since that's primarily for
Part P. But it would be rather telling if so (particularly if he proposes
doing remedial work himself).

Theo


He's NICEIC. But dobbing him in over this seems a bit OTT.

On 31/03/2021 22:37, GB wrote:
On 31/03/2021 22:20, Theo wrote:
GB wrote:
On 31/03/2021 21:08, Robin wrote:
Contact his CPS?

What's a CPS?

Competent Person Scheme.Â* One of:

NICEIC or Elecsa (both owned by Certsure)
NAPIT or Stroma (both owned by NAPIT)

They all have databases of registered tradespeople.Â* Look him up and see
where he is registered.

I think you can do EICRs without being on a CPS, since that's
primarily for
Part P.Â* But it would be rather telling if so (particularly if he
proposes
doing remedial work himself).

Theo


He's NICEIC. But dobbing him in over this seems a bit OTT.

OTT? All you need to do is ask NICEIC if they agree with the reason he
gave you for the installation needing to be to be tested again in 1
year. If not, can they have a word with him and you get a new
certificate. (And if so, why isn't the same true for all landlords?)
It's not as if he'll get struck off.




--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Yes if he makes a disclaimer that he checked it on a date and any
alterations after that are going to make the cert null, then I'd have
thought it would be fine.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"SH" wrote in message
...
On 31/03/2021 20:32, GB wrote:
I hired an electrician to do EICRs for the tenanted flats at my old
office. He has produced certificates with a one year renewal, rather than
the usual five years.

There's nothing 'electrical' to justify this. He just says that the
tenant may leave, and then he thinks I should get a new certificate "in
case the tenant has modified the electrics".

Is he right, or has he invented a little dodge in the hope of having
ongoing work? If so, apart from refusing to pay his bill, is there any
way to get him to reissue the EICRs with a five year renewal?







did you have any C codes at all on the EICR and if so what were they?

But it is the first I've heard of this 1 year thing.....

(I had an EICR done on my rental house and that was issued for 5 years and
I have 4 C3 advisories on it......

S.

Is there one for incompetent persons then?
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
GB wrote:

What's a CPS?

competent persons scheme (NICEIC, NAPIT, etc)

On 31/03/2021 23:12, Robin wrote:
On 31/03/2021 22:37, GB wrote:
On 31/03/2021 22:20, Theo wrote:
GB wrote:
On 31/03/2021 21:08, Robin wrote:
Contact his CPS?

What's a CPS?

Competent Person Scheme.Â* One of:

NICEIC or Elecsa (both owned by Certsure)
NAPIT or Stroma (both owned by NAPIT)

They all have databases of registered tradespeople.Â* Look him up and see
where he is registered.

I think you can do EICRs without being on a CPS, since that's
primarily for
Part P.Â* But it would be rather telling if so (particularly if he
proposes
doing remedial work himself).

Theo


He's NICEIC. But dobbing him in over this seems a bit OTT.

OTT?Â* All you need to do is ask NICEIC if they agree with the reason he
gave you for the installation needing to be to be tested again in 1
year. If not, can they have a word with him and you get a new
certificate.Â* (And if so, why isn't the same true for all landlords?)
It's not as if he'll get struck off.






I have rechecked my EICR.


On Page 1, under Part 2:

Purpose for which this report is required: the spary put down:

Landlords Report

and Part 5: Next Inspection it actually says:

a bit of blah blah then this installation should be further inspected
and tested after an interval of not more than 5 years

and Give Reason for recommendation and the sparky put "Rented Property"

So its clear the sparky is aware its a rental property and has stated a
retest/reinspection interval of 5 years.

Having said that, I can well believe that tenants can "interfere" with
the electrics particularly if they have a Landlord that is not proactive
and responsive enough to fixing problems upon request by the tenant.

On 31/03/2021 20:32, GB wrote:
I hired an electrician to do EICRs for the tenanted flats at my old
office. He has produced certificates with a one year renewal, rather
than the usual five years.

There's nothing 'electrical' to justify this. He just says that the
tenant may leave, and then he thinks I should get a new certificate "in
case the tenant has modified the electrics".

Is he right, or has he invented a little dodge in the hope of having
ongoing work?Â* If so, apart from refusing to pay his bill, is there any
way to get him to reissue the EICRs with a five year renewal?





Another option for you: ask him to check with NICEIC his grounds for the
1 year certificate. Point out that while NICEIC used to recommend an
EICR on change of tenant that didn't make it into the law. That only
requires an EICR every 5 years. So his approach is way more onerous.

Then if he still won't change his mind you can go to NICEIC with clearer
evidence that you tried to resolve the matter with him.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote

Is there one for incompetent persons then?

Corse there is, we call it Westminster.

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
GB wrote:

What's a CPS?

competent persons scheme (NICEIC, NAPIT, etc)

On 01/04/2021 10:03, Rod Speed wrote:
Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote
Is there one for incompetent persons then?

Corse there is, we call it Westminster.
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
GB wrote:

What's a CPS?

competent persons scheme (NICEIC, NAPIT, etc)



Come to think of it from a legal point of view, its probably not a bad
idea to have an EICR at a change of tenant just in case the outgoing
tenant has "interfered" with the wiring to then present a safety risk to
the incoming tenant....

If the incoming tenant is injured/electrocuted, the landlord's ability
to defend themself against a charge of letting unsafe property will be
weaker without an EICR at change of tenant?

SH wrote:
If the incoming tenant is injured/electrocuted, the landlord's ability
to defend themself against a charge of letting unsafe property will be
weaker without an EICR at change of tenant?

Surely that would have been written into the law if that was the case? The
law has decided that 5 years is a suitable period, and so that would seem a
suitable defence? The law is primarily to protect tenants from bad
landlords, not landlords from bad tenants.

For example there's no requirement to do a gas safety check on change of
tenant, and the argument the tenant could have fiddled with gas appliances
would be similar. Of course obvious damage would be something you should
investigate.

I suppose it depends how often you change tenant - if it's a student let
that turns over every year doing an EICR every year might be excessive,
whereas if it typically changes tenancy after 3-4 years it might make sense
to do it before a new let - saves having to impose half a day with the power
turned off on a tenant in place (particularly if they WFH).

Theo

On Thu, 1 Apr 2021 20:03:46 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


FLUSH more of the trolling senile asshole's latest troll****

--
Bod addressing abnormal senile quarreller Rodent Speed:
"Do you practice arguing with yourself in an empty room?"
MID:

On 01/04/2021 10:10, SH wrote:
On 01/04/2021 10:03, Rod Speed wrote:
Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote
Is there one for incompetent persons then?

Corse there is, we call it Westminster.
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
GB wrote:

What's a CPS?

competent persons scheme (NICEIC, NAPIT, etc)



Come to think of it from a legal point of view, its probably not a bad
idea to have an EICR at a change of tenant just in case the outgoing
tenant has "interfered" with the wiring to then present a safety risk to
the incoming tenant....

If the incoming tenant is injured/electrocuted, the landlord's ability
to defend themself against a charge of letting unsafe property will be
weaker without an EICR at change of tenant?

The risk is miniscule if you consider how many deaths are through fixed
wiring per year.

I would say having the EICR certificate actually strengthens the
landlord#s position, not weakens it. If the law doesn't demand an EICR
at every change of tenant the landlord isn't obliged to have one carried
out.

HomeOwners hub :-)

On 01/04/2021 07:09, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Is there one for incompetent persons then?
Brian

You would normally put 5 years or change of tenancy, however if the inspector feels the condition of the installation should be reviewed sooner possibly deteriorating insulation resistance values, then that should be in observations and recommendations. The Mental Capacity of the tenants could be a factor with an increased duty of care.

--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy/eicrs-3108646-.htm

On 01/04/2021 16:15, Ewan1965 wrote:
You would normally put 5 years or change of tenancy, however if the
inspector feels the condition of the installation should be reviewed
sooner possibly deteriorating insulation resistance values, then that
should be in observations and recommendations. The Mental Capacity of
the tenants could be a factor with an increased duty of care.


Plus the ones who intend to use the house to improve their
horticulture.

"SH" wrote in message
...
On 01/04/2021 10:03, Rod Speed wrote:
Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote
Is there one for incompetent persons then?

Corse there is, we call it Westminster.
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
GB wrote:

What's a CPS?

competent persons scheme (NICEIC, NAPIT, etc)



Come to think of it from a legal point of view, its probably not a bad
idea to have an EICR at a change of tenant just in case the outgoing
tenant has "interfered" with the wiring to then present a safety risk to
the incoming tenant....

If the incoming tenant is injured/electrocuted, the landlord's ability to
defend themself against a charge of letting unsafe property will be weaker
without an EICR at change of tenant?

Does it happen enough to warrant the stupid cost of that approach ?

Bureaucracy gone mad imo.

On 01/04/2021 09:25, Robin wrote:

Another option for you: ask him to check with NICEIC his grounds for the
1 year certificate.Â* Point out that while NICEIC used to recommend an
EICR on change of tenant that didn't make it into the law.Â* That only
requires an EICR every 5 years.Â* So his approach is way more onerous.

Thanks very much, everyone. We have resolved the issue amicably, and the
electrician has kindly reissued the certificates.

He remains firmly of the opinion ("I know for a fact," he told me a few
minutes ago) that a new certificate is required on a change of tenancy.

He likes doing EICRs for landlords, and I suspect that he is storing up
a lot of problems for the future**. He's a nice guy, very hard working,
and I would prefer to set him straight. Do you know if there's anything
from NICEIC I can show him that says he's wrong?


Then if he still won't change his mind you can go to NICEIC with clearer
evidence that you tried to resolve the matter with him.


** The issue I can foresee is that lots of landlords won't check the
renewal date on the certificate, assume it's 5 years, and come a cropper
when it turns out they've been issuing invalid certificates. They'll
then blame the electrician. I'd like to help him avoid that particular
problem.

On 31/03/2021 21:08, Robin wrote:
On 31/03/2021 20:32, GB wrote:
I hired an electrician to do EICRs for the tenanted flats at my old
office. He has produced certificates with a one year renewal, rather
than the usual five years.

There's nothing 'electrical' to justify this. He just says that the
tenant may leave, and then he thinks I should get a new certificate
"in case the tenant has modified the electrics".

Is he right, or has he invented a little dodge in the hope of having
ongoing work?Â* If so, apart from refusing to pay his bill, is there
any way to get him to reissue the EICRs with a five year renewal?


Contact his CPS?

FWIW I used to think the "next inspection date" was just a
recommendation.Â* But it sure ain't now for landlords.Â* The regs make
explicit that your EICR would only be valid for 1 year.

Got a reference for that. I assume it's a landlord reg so I have not
seen it.


--
Adam

On Fri, 2 Apr 2021 04:38:04 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Bureaucracy gone mad imo.

No bureaucracy could ever become as mad as you are, you trolling senile
pest!

--
Richard addressing senile Rodent Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On 01/04/2021 19:09, ARW wrote:


FWIW I used to think the "next inspection date" was just a
recommendation.Â* But it sure ain't now for landlords.Â* The regs make
explicit that your EICR would only be valid for 1 year.

Got a reference for that. I assume it's a landlord reg so I have not
seen it.



https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/...0200312_en.pdf

The relevant bit is:

(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(b) €œat regular intervals€� means€”
(a) at intervals of no more than 5 years; or
(b) where the most recent report under sub-paragraph (3)(a) requires
such inspection and testing to be at intervals of less than 5 years, at
the intervals specified in that report.


Certificates I have seen recommend an interval until the next test but
don't go further than 'recommend'. We may have to wait and see what the
courts say about that, but a prudent landlord would abide by whatever
the EICR says, however it is worded!

Maybe, Robin can explain why I'm wrong.

On 01/04/2021 19:57, GB wrote:
On 01/04/2021 19:09, ARW wrote:


FWIW I used to think the "next inspection date" was just a
recommendation.Â* But it sure ain't now for landlords.Â* The regs make
explicit that your EICR would only be valid for 1 year.

Got a reference for that. I assume it's a landlord reg so I have not
seen it.



https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/...0200312_en.pdf

The relevant bit is:

(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(b) €œat regular intervals€� means€”
(a) at intervals of no more than 5 years; or
(b) where the most recent report under sub-paragraph (3)(a) requires
such inspection and testing to be at intervals of less than 5 years, at
the intervals specified in that report.


Certificates I have seen recommend an interval until the next test but
don't go further than 'recommend'. We may have to wait and see what the
courts say about that, but a prudent landlord would abide by whatever
the EICR says, however it is worded!

Maybe, Robin can explain why I'm wrong.





You are not wrong. You have just helped me.

Thanks.

--
Adam

On 01/04/2021 19:57, GB wrote:
On 01/04/2021 19:09, ARW wrote:


FWIW I used to think the "next inspection date" was just a
recommendation.Â* But it sure ain't now for landlords.Â* The regs make
explicit that your EICR would only be valid for 1 year.

Got a reference for that. I assume it's a landlord reg so I have not
seen it.



https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/...0200312_en.pdf

The relevant bit is:

(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(b) €œat regular intervals€� means€”
(a) at intervals of no more than 5 years; or
(b) where the most recent report under sub-paragraph (3)(a) requires
such inspection and testing to be at intervals of less than 5 years, at
the intervals specified in that report.


Certificates I have seen recommend an interval until the next test but
don't go further than 'recommend'. We may have to wait and see what the
courts say about that, but a prudent landlord would abide by whatever
the EICR says, however it is worded!

Maybe, Robin can explain why I'm wrong.


I don't think you are. There are other bits of the regs which suggest
the people who instructed on them* didn't really understand the subject
and had failed to consult on the details. The bit you quote above (reg
3(2)(b)) gives the impression they thought EICRs were like MoTs with a
clear end date. But the courts are reluctant to conclude that words in
legislation have no effect. So - bearing in mind this is about safety -
I'd guess that would read recommend = require. But that's not even an
educated guess as I've not looked for cases that might bear.



*I don't say "drafted them" as that'll be lawyers who worked from what
the policy people told them


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 01/04/2021 18:40, GB wrote:
On 01/04/2021 09:25, Robin wrote:

Another option for you: ask him to check with NICEIC his grounds for
the 1 year certificate.Â* Point out that while NICEIC used to recommend
an EICR on change of tenant that didn't make it into the law.Â* That
only requires an EICR every 5 years.Â* So his approach is way more
onerous.

Thanks very much, everyone. We have resolved the issue amicably, and the
electrician has kindly reissued the certificates.

He remains firmly of the opinion ("I know for a fact," he told me a few
minutes ago) that a new certificate is required on a change of tenancy.

He is not alone. But I think he and others who agree with him have
misread reg 3(2)(c). You quoted that in t'other post but for ease of ref:

"(b) ensure every electrical installation in the residential premises is
inspected and tested at regular intervals by a qualified person; and

(c) ensure the first inspection and testing is carried out€”

(i) before the tenancy commences in relation to a new specified tenancy;
or

(ii) by 1st April 2021 in relation to an existing specified tenancy."

Some people read as meaning the "first inspection and testing FOR THE
NEW TENANCY is...". What that overlooks is the fact that some landlords
had never had an EICR on their property. So to avoid a massive demand
for EICRs as soon as the regs came into force (i) required an EICR on a
new tenancy and (ii) gave until this April for everyone else.

It's sloppy. I like to think I'd have suggested we define "first
inspection" to make clear it is "first the landlord has had for the
property" rather than "first for the tenancy". But that may be 20:20
hindsight.

Anyhow, IMHO there's no room for doubt when one also looks at reg
3(3)(e) which requires the landlord to

"(e) supply a copy of the most recent report to€”

(i) any new tenant of the specified tenancy to which the report relates
before that tenant occupies those premises; and

(ii) any prospective tenant within 28 days of receiving a request in
writing for it from that prospective tenant."

The use of "most recent report" is totally at odds with the notion that
every new tenant gets a new, first report.


He likes doing EICRs for landlords, and I suspect that he is storing up
a lot of problems for the future**. He's a nice guy, very hard working,
and I would prefer to set him straight. Do you know if there's anything
from NICEIC I can show him that says he's wrong?


Then if he still won't change his mind you can go to NICEIC with
clearer evidence that you tried to resolve the matter with him.


** The issue I can foresee is that lots of landlords won't check the
renewal date on the certificate, assume it's 5 years, and come a cropper
when it turns out they've been issuing invalid certificates. They'll
then blame the electrician. I'd like to help him avoid that particular
problem.


I am sad but not surprised if the CPSs have not given better guidance on
this.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 01/04/2021 18:40, GB wrote:
On 01/04/2021 09:25, Robin wrote:

Another option for you: ask him to check with NICEIC his grounds for
the 1 year certificate.Â* Point out that while NICEIC used to recommend
an EICR on change of tenant that didn't make it into the law.Â* That
only requires an EICR every 5 years.Â* So his approach is way more
onerous.

Thanks very much, everyone. We have resolved the issue amicably, and the
electrician has kindly reissued the certificates.

He remains firmly of the opinion ("I know for a fact," he told me a few
minutes ago) that a new certificate is required on a change of tenancy.

He likes doing EICRs for landlords, and I suspect that he is storing up
a lot of problems for the future**. He's a nice guy, very hard working,
and I would prefer to set him straight. Do you know if there's anything
from NICEIC I can show him that says he's wrong?





I've thought of another issue that you might like to put to him.

Many HMOs involve just one (joint) tenancy - eg where students or other
friends are sharing. But other HMOs are let on the basis of several
sole tenancies - one for each room. So every time a room is re-let
there's a new tenancy. A new EICR for every new tenancy could mean
several a year for the same installation.

OTOH I'd expect landlords to do a walk-through on such a change to check
for damage to sockets etc. So he could pitch for that work on the basis
of him also replacing such sockets etc on the spot and then providing a
short report.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 01/04/2021 19:57, GB wrote:
On 01/04/2021 19:09, ARW wrote:


FWIW I used to think the "next inspection date" was just a
recommendation.Â* But it sure ain't now for landlords.Â* The regs make
explicit that your EICR would only be valid for 1 year.

Got a reference for that. I assume it's a landlord reg so I have not
seen it.



https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/...0200312_en.pdf

The relevant bit is:

(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(b) €œat regular intervals€� means€”
(a) at intervals of no more than 5 years; or
(b) where the most recent report under sub-paragraph (3)(a) requires
such inspection and testing to be at intervals of less than 5 years, at
the intervals specified in that report.

That is interesting and something I wasn't aware of. Forewarned I might
be tempted to ask for the justification of why another inspection within
the 5 years.

Perhaps Adam can provide possible reasons?

Certificates I have seen recommend an interval until the next test but
don't go further than 'recommend'. We may have to wait and see what the
courts say about that, but a prudent landlord would abide by whatever
the EICR says, however it is worded!

Maybe, Robin can explain why I'm wrong.

On 01/04/2021 22:31, Robin wrote:
On 01/04/2021 18:40, GB wrote:
On 01/04/2021 09:25, Robin wrote:

Another option for you: ask him to check with NICEIC his grounds for
the 1 year certificate.Â* Point out that while NICEIC used to
recommend an EICR on change of tenant that didn't make it into the
law.Â* That only requires an EICR every 5 years.Â* So his approach is
way more onerous.

Thanks very much, everyone. We have resolved the issue amicably, and
the electrician has kindly reissued the certificates.

He remains firmly of the opinion ("I know for a fact," he told me a
few minutes ago) that a new certificate is required on a change of
tenancy.

He likes doing EICRs for landlords, and I suspect that he is storing
up a lot of problems for the future**. He's a nice guy, very hard
working, and I would prefer to set him straight. Do you know if
there's anything from NICEIC I can show him that says he's wrong?


I've thought of another issue that you might like to put to him.

Many HMOs involve just one (joint) tenancy - eg where students or other
friends are sharing.Â* But other HMOs are let on the basis of several
sole tenancies - one for each room.Â* So every time a room is re-let
there's a new tenancy.Â* A new EICR for every new tenancy could mean
several a year for the same installation.

Does the need for a EICR cover lodgers, who are normally there under a
licence rather than a tenancy?

OTOH I'd expect landlords to do a walk-through on such a change to check
for damage to sockets etc. So he could pitch for that work on the basis
of him also replacing such sockets etc on the spot and then providing a
short report.

On 01/04/2021 22:40, Fredxx wrote:
On 01/04/2021 19:57, GB wrote:
On 01/04/2021 19:09, ARW wrote:


FWIW I used to think the "next inspection date" was just a
recommendation.Â* But it sure ain't now for landlords.Â* The regs make
explicit that your EICR would only be valid for 1 year.

Got a reference for that. I assume it's a landlord reg so I have not
seen it.



https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/...0200312_en.pdf

The relevant bit is:

(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(b) €œat regular intervals€�
means€”
(a) at intervals of no more than 5 years; or
(b) where the most recent report under sub-paragraph (3)(a) requires
such inspection and testing to be at intervals of less than 5 years,
at the intervals specified in that report.

That is interesting and something I wasn't aware of. Forewarned I might
be tempted to ask for the justification of why another inspection within
the 5 years.

Perhaps Adam can provide possible reasons?


https://www.fixedtesting.com/testing-intervals/

any good?


--
Adam

On 02/04/2021 01:05, Fredxx wrote:
On 01/04/2021 22:31, Robin wrote:
On 01/04/2021 18:40, GB wrote:
On 01/04/2021 09:25, Robin wrote:

Another option for you: ask him to check with NICEIC his grounds for
the 1 year certificate.Â* Point out that while NICEIC used to
recommend an EICR on change of tenant that didn't make it into the
law.Â* That only requires an EICR every 5 years.Â* So his approach is
way more onerous.

Thanks very much, everyone. We have resolved the issue amicably, and
the electrician has kindly reissued the certificates.

He remains firmly of the opinion ("I know for a fact," he told me a
few minutes ago) that a new certificate is required on a change of
tenancy.

He likes doing EICRs for landlords, and I suspect that he is storing
up a lot of problems for the future**. He's a nice guy, very hard
working, and I would prefer to set him straight. Do you know if
there's anything from NICEIC I can show him that says he's wrong?


I've thought of another issue that you might like to put to him.

Many HMOs involve just one (joint) tenancy - eg where students or
other friends are sharing.Â* But other HMOs are let on the basis of
several sole tenancies - one for each room.Â* So every time a room is
re-let there's a new tenancy.Â* A new EICR for every new tenancy could
mean several a year for the same installation.

Does the need for a EICR cover lodgers, who are normally there under a
licence rather than a tenancy?

OTOH I'd expect landlords to do a walk-through on such a change to
check for damage to sockets etc. So he could pitch for that work on
the basis of him also replacing such sockets etc on the spot and then
providing a short report.



No. Excluded by para 2 of Schedule 1. Or see the official guidance from
HMG at

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector-guidance-for-landlords-tenants-and-local-authorities/guide-for-landlords-electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector

The guidance includes their best effort to wriggle round the way they
went ahead with a regulation that mandates "the electrical safety
standards" of the 18th edition despite admitting that they never
intended to require landlords to replace every plastic CU etc.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Robin wrote:
Many HMOs involve just one (joint) tenancy - eg where students or other
friends are sharing. But other HMOs are let on the basis of several
sole tenancies - one for each room. So every time a room is re-let
there's a new tenancy. A new EICR for every new tenancy could mean
several a year for the same installation.

OTOH I'd expect landlords to do a walk-through on such a change to check
for damage to sockets etc. So he could pitch for that work on the basis
of him also replacing such sockets etc on the spot and then providing a
short report.

I've never been a landlord, but is there really a risk of sockets getting
damaged from year to year? Possibly yellowing over decades of use, but I
don't see how a socket that passed an EICR a year or two ago is suddenly
going to become broken - unless the tenant is in the habit of wielding a
baseball bat?

Obviously anything that is spotted as being broken should be replaced, but I
don't see it coming up high on the list of risks compared with, say, faulty
or expired smoke alarms.

Theo

On 02/04/2021 06:40, ARW wrote:
On 01/04/2021 22:40, Fredxx wrote:
On 01/04/2021 19:57, GB wrote:
On 01/04/2021 19:09, ARW wrote:


FWIW I used to think the "next inspection date" was just a
recommendation.Â* But it sure ain't now for landlords.Â* The regs
make explicit that your EICR would only be valid for 1 year.

Got a reference for that. I assume it's a landlord reg so I have not
seen it.



https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/...0200312_en.pdf

The relevant bit is:

(2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(b) €œat regular intervals€�
means€”
(a) at intervals of no more than 5 years; or
(b) where the most recent report under sub-paragraph (3)(a) requires
such inspection and testing to be at intervals of less than 5 years,
at the intervals specified in that report.

That is interesting and something I wasn't aware of. Forewarned I
might be tempted to ask for the justification of why another
inspection within the 5 years.

Perhaps Adam can provide possible reasons?


https://www.fixedtesting.com/testing-intervals/

any good?

Thanks, those seem default times rather than having any basis of
requirement.


https://forums.landlordzone.co.uk/fo...2-eicr-re-test

Suggests that a landlord visual inspection to make sure nothing is
broken or defective would constitute a sufficient routine check.

I was under the initial understanding that there might a specific type
of installation that might require a more frequent inspection than 5 years.

On 02/04/2021 08:15, Robin wrote:
On 02/04/2021 01:05, Fredxx wrote:
On 01/04/2021 22:31, Robin wrote:
On 01/04/2021 18:40, GB wrote:
On 01/04/2021 09:25, Robin wrote:

Another option for you: ask him to check with NICEIC his grounds
for the 1 year certificate.Â* Point out that while NICEIC used to
recommend an EICR on change of tenant that didn't make it into the
law.Â* That only requires an EICR every 5 years.Â* So his approach is
way more onerous.

Thanks very much, everyone. We have resolved the issue amicably, and
the electrician has kindly reissued the certificates.

He remains firmly of the opinion ("I know for a fact," he told me a
few minutes ago) that a new certificate is required on a change of
tenancy.

He likes doing EICRs for landlords, and I suspect that he is storing
up a lot of problems for the future**. He's a nice guy, very hard
working, and I would prefer to set him straight. Do you know if
there's anything from NICEIC I can show him that says he's wrong?


I've thought of another issue that you might like to put to him.

Many HMOs involve just one (joint) tenancy - eg where students or
other friends are sharing.Â* But other HMOs are let on the basis of
several sole tenancies - one for each room.Â* So every time a room is
re-let there's a new tenancy.Â* A new EICR for every new tenancy could
mean several a year for the same installation.

Does the need for a EICR cover lodgers, who are normally there under a
licence rather than a tenancy?

OTOH I'd expect landlords to do a walk-through on such a change to
check for damage to sockets etc. So he could pitch for that work on
the basis of him also replacing such sockets etc on the spot and then
providing a short report.



No. Excluded by para 2 of Schedule 1.Â* Or see the official guidance from
HMG at

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector-guidance-for-landlords-tenants-and-local-authorities/guide-for-landlords-electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector


The guidance includes their best effort to wriggle round the way they
went ahead with a regulation that mandates "the electrical safety
standards" of the 18th edition despite admitting that they never
intended to require landlords to replace every plastic CU etc.

Interesting, so if you have 4 or more lodgers then it's a HMO, below
that and you don't need an EICR.

It is strange how social housing are exempt, all all the tenancies that
might well require a periodic inspection, that would be one.

How do you become a Social Housing provider? :-)

On 02/04/2021 08:15, Robin wrote:
On 02/04/2021 01:05, Fredxx wrote:
On 01/04/2021 22:31, Robin wrote:
On 01/04/2021 18:40, GB wrote:
On 01/04/2021 09:25, Robin wrote:

Another option for you: ask him to check with NICEIC his grounds
for the 1 year certificate.Â* Point out that while NICEIC used to
recommend an EICR on change of tenant that didn't make it into the
law.Â* That only requires an EICR every 5 years.Â* So his approach is
way more onerous.

Thanks very much, everyone. We have resolved the issue amicably, and
the electrician has kindly reissued the certificates.

He remains firmly of the opinion ("I know for a fact," he told me a
few minutes ago) that a new certificate is required on a change of
tenancy.

He likes doing EICRs for landlords, and I suspect that he is storing
up a lot of problems for the future**. He's a nice guy, very hard
working, and I would prefer to set him straight. Do you know if
there's anything from NICEIC I can show him that says he's wrong?


I've thought of another issue that you might like to put to him.

Many HMOs involve just one (joint) tenancy - eg where students or
other friends are sharing.Â* But other HMOs are let on the basis of
several sole tenancies - one for each room.Â* So every time a room is
re-let there's a new tenancy.Â* A new EICR for every new tenancy could
mean several a year for the same installation.

Does the need for a EICR cover lodgers, who are normally there under a
licence rather than a tenancy?

OTOH I'd expect landlords to do a walk-through on such a change to
check for damage to sockets etc. So he could pitch for that work on
the basis of him also replacing such sockets etc on the spot and then
providing a short report.



No. Excluded by para 2 of Schedule 1.Â* Or see the official guidance from
HMG at

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector-guidance-for-landlords-tenants-and-local-authorities/guide-for-landlords-electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector


The guidance includes their best effort to wriggle round the way they
went ahead with a regulation that mandates "the electrical safety
standards" of the 18th edition despite admitting that they never
intended to require landlords to replace every plastic CU etc.

That link says, "Ensure national standards for electrical safety are
met. These are set out in the 18th edition of the €˜Wiring Regulations,
which are published as British Standard 7671."

Now, to my knowledge these may be standards but the standard allows for
deviations that can be justified. In other words it is reasonable to
argue the rules within BS 7671 are more a guide to good practice rather
than a set of prescribed rules.

On 02/04/2021 13:23, Fredxx wrote:
On 02/04/2021 08:15, Robin wrote:
On 02/04/2021 01:05, Fredxx wrote:

snip


Does the need for a EICR cover lodgers, who are normally there under
a licence rather than a tenancy?

snip


No. Excluded by para 2 of Schedule 1.Â* Or see the official guidance
from HMG at

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector-guidance-for-landlords-tenants-and-local-authorities/guide-for-landlords-electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector


The guidance includes their best effort to wriggle round the way they
went ahead with a regulation that mandates "the electrical safety
standards" of the 18th edition despite admitting that they never
intended to require landlords to replace every plastic CU etc.

Interesting, so if you have 4 or more lodgers then it's a HMO, below
that and you don't need an EICR.

Dunno. AFAICS:

a. these regs simply exclude lodgers as defined in Schedule 1

b. it doesn't matter in these regs if it's an HMO or not

c. these regs also abolished the separate requirement for EICRs for HMOs;

BUT

d. resident landlords with 2 lodgers may have an HMO and be required to
certificate their safety and be subject to separate licensing conditions.

I could well be wrong as it seems a daft result. But then these regs
were widely seen as a mess. (As also was the guidance which the
Government issued and withdrew twice).


Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

If soon 02/04/2021 14:59, Fredxx wrote:
On 02/04/2021 08:15, Robin wrote:
snip

The guidance includes their best effort to wriggle round the way they
went ahead with a regulation that mandates "the electrical safety
standards" of the 18th edition despite admitting that they never
intended to require landlords to replace every plastic CU etc.

That link says, "Ensure national standards for electrical safety are
met. These are set out in the 18th edition of the €˜Wiring Regulations,
which are published as British Standard 7671."

Now, to my knowledge these may be standards but the standard allows for
deviations that can be justified. In other words it is reasonable to
argue the rules within BS 7671 are more a guide to good practice rather
than a set of prescribed rules.



I'd be interested to read how the following example can be construed as
"more a guide to good practice rather than a set of prescribed rules".

421.1.201 Within domestic (household) premises, consumer units and
similar switchgear assemblies shall comply with BS EN 61439-3 and shall

(i) have their enclosure manufactured from non-combustible material, or

(ii) be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed of
non-combustible material and complying with Regulation 132.12.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid