A house conversion turned into 6 studio apartments 5 years ago

See if you can spot what is wrong. Sorry Brian it's a photo quiz.

1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0

3. The supply to the workshop

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jhwi34rci...kshop.jpg?dl=0

4. Studio 4 CU

https://www.dropbox.com/s/06votomlcq...dioDB.jpg?dl=0

--
Adam

On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 18:06:34 +0000, ARW
wrote:

A house conversion turned into 6 studio apartments 5 years ago

See if you can spot what is wrong. Sorry Brian it's a photo quiz.

1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0

3. The supply to the workshop

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jhwi34rci...kshop.jpg?dl=0

4. Studio 4 CU

https://www.dropbox.com/s/06votomlcq...dioDB.jpg?dl=0

ergh! mode=Lesley Phillips Oo Nasty!/mode

Me no sparky but - nasty!!!

Avpx

p.s. Most of it!

--
The people who really run organizations are usually found several levels
down, where it is still possible to get things done.
(Small Gods) Wed 10060 Sep 18:20:01 GMT 1993
18:20:01 up 1 day, 34 min, 11 users, load average: 2.34, 2.01, 2.04

ARW wrote:

1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0

Neutral into an earth bar, not the neutral bar?

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0
3. The supply to the workshop

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jhwi34rci...kshop.jpg?dl=0

somebody got something against proper glands for SWA?

4. Studio 4 CU
https://www.dropbox.com/s/06votomlcq...dioDB.jpg?dl=0

Is that the camera angle playing tricks, or L/N reversed?

On 17/03/2021 18:06, ARW wrote:
A house conversion turned into 6 studio apartments 5 years ago

See if you can spot what is wrong. Sorry Brian it's a photo quiz.

1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0

3. The supply to the workshop

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jhwi34rci...kshop.jpg?dl=0

4. Studio 4 CU

https://www.dropbox.com/s/06votomlcq...dioDB.jpg?dl=0


Answers by email to an apprentice you have nominated to mark them?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 17/03/2021 18:27, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0

Neutral into an earth bar, not the neutral bar?

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0
3. The supply to the workshop

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jhwi34rci...kshop.jpg?dl=0

somebody got something against proper glands for SWA?

4. Studio 4 CU
https://www.dropbox.com/s/06votomlcq...dioDB.jpg?dl=0

Is that the camera angle playing tricks, or L/N reversed?




Correct on all 3.

So what's fishy about photo number 2?

--
Adam

"The Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 18:06:34 +0000, ARW
wrote:

A house conversion turned into 6 studio apartments 5 years ago

See if you can spot what is wrong. Sorry Brian it's a photo quiz.

1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0

3. The supply to the workshop

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jhwi34rci...kshop.jpg?dl=0

4. Studio 4 CU

https://www.dropbox.com/s/06votomlcq...dioDB.jpg?dl=0

ergh! mode=Lesley Phillips Oo Nasty!/mode

Me no sparky but - nasty!!!

surely the wiring inside a CU always looks a mess. That's why they have a
cover on .

That doesn't make the actual connections fundamentally wrong

On 17/03/2021 18:31, ARW wrote:
On 17/03/2021 18:27, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0

Neutral into an earth bar, not the neutral bar?

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0
3. The supply to the workshop

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jhwi34rci...kshop.jpg?dl=0

somebody got something against proper glands for SWA?

4. Studio 4 CU
https://www.dropbox.com/s/06votomlcq...dioDB.jpg?dl=0

Is that the camera angle playing tricks, or L/N reversed?




Correct on all 3.

So what's fishy about photo number 2?

Ignore the bit on photo 2 that also shows the workshop supply.

--
Adam

On 17/03/2021 18:31, tim... wrote:


"The Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 18:06:34 +0000, ARW
wrote:

A house conversion turned into 6 studio apartments 5 years ago

See if you can spot what is wrong. Sorry Brian it's a photo quiz.

1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0

3. The supply to the workshop

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jhwi34rci...kshop.jpg?dl=0

4. Studio 4 CU

https://www.dropbox.com/s/06votomlcq...dioDB.jpg?dl=0

ergh! mode=Lesley Phillips Oo Nasty!/mode

Me no sparky but - nasty!!!

surely the wiring inside a CU always looks a mess.Â* That's why they have
a cover on .

That doesn't make the actual connections fundamentally wrong






Except in both DBs the connections are fundamentally wrong:-)

--
Adam

ARW wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

ARW wrote:

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0

Correct on all 3.

So what's fishy about photo number 2?

other two(?) meters have their neutral going through the meter shown?
Unless it's a case of "what other meters?"

same SWA gland issue

On 17/03/2021 18:36, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

ARW wrote:

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0

Correct on all 3.

So what's fishy about photo number 2?

other two(?) meters have their neutral going through the meter shown?
Unless it's a case of "what other meters?"


It "is what other meters". There is just a single phase meter on one of
the phases:-)


--
Adam

"ARW" wrote in message
...
On 17/03/2021 18:31, tim... wrote:


"The Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 18:06:34 +0000, ARW
wrote:

A house conversion turned into 6 studio apartments 5 years ago

See if you can spot what is wrong. Sorry Brian it's a photo quiz.

1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0

3. The supply to the workshop

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jhwi34rci...kshop.jpg?dl=0

4. Studio 4 CU

https://www.dropbox.com/s/06votomlcq...dioDB.jpg?dl=0

ergh! mode=Lesley Phillips Oo Nasty!/mode

Me no sparky but - nasty!!!

surely the wiring inside a CU always looks a mess. That's why they have
a cover on .

That doesn't make the actual connections fundamentally wrong






Except in both DBs the connections are fundamentally wrong:-)

Oh, I don't doubt it

I'm just saying that wrongness isn't "It's a bit of a mess".

Even done properly, it still looks a mess to the un-qualified

On Wednesday, 17 March 2021 at 18:27:32 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0
Neutral into an earth bar, not the neutral bar?

And three phase as brown-brown-red? right next to a label saying brown-black-grey

I know nothing about three-phase wiring, but I might have naively expected that the order of the phases would match the layout at the cutout (where it's brown-red-brown). Presumably if the order is wrong, three phase motors run backwards? I'd have expected, I suppose, some L1/L2/L3 labels too.

Ben

On 17/03/2021 18:35, ARW wrote:
On 17/03/2021 18:31, tim... wrote:


"The Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 18:06:34 +0000, ARW
wrote:

A house conversion turned into 6 studio apartments 5 years ago

See if you can spot what is wrong. Sorry Brian it's a photo quiz.

1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0

3. The supply to the workshop

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jhwi34rci...kshop.jpg?dl=0

4. Studio 4 CU

https://www.dropbox.com/s/06votomlcq...dioDB.jpg?dl=0

ergh! mode=Lesley Phillips Oo Nasty!/mode

Me no sparky but - nasty!!!

surely the wiring inside a CU always looks a mess.Â* That's why they
have a cover on .

That doesn't make the actual connections fundamentally wrong






Except in both DBs the connections are fundamentally wrong:-)


Three phase company fuses then a single phase meter for something.
Where are the neters for each flat ? Nothing labelled .

Pic 1 shows two brown cables and one red coming from somewhere.
Another red cable in front of pic with something crimped to it,
where does that go ?.

Neutral link looks really dodgy. Couldn't they have got a proper
busbar for the neutrals ?.

SWA in PIC 2 not terminated properly, what is in the workshop?.

Pic 4 is a studio flat with more circuits and mCBs than I have
in my 3-bed semi !.

On 17/03/2021 18:52, Ben Blaukopf wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 March 2021 at 18:27:32 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0
Neutral into an earth bar, not the neutral bar?

And three phase as brown-brown-red? right next to a label saying brown-black-grey

I know nothing about three-phase wiring, but I might have naively expected that the order of the phases would match the layout at the cutout (where it's brown-red-brown). Presumably if the order is wrong, three phase motors run backwards? I'd have expected, I suppose, some L1/L2/L3 labels too.

Yes there should be some L1 L2 L2 or proper coloured makings on the tails.

As for your observation about the phases matching the layout of the
cutout. I did not expect anyone to suggest that!

It seems random on the layout. I might have a photo of the 3 phase cut
out on the Leicester job. L1 was the middle fuse of the cut out (nothing
to do with me) but it was all labelled up.

L1 is often the closest to the neutral on the cut out.


--
Adam

Andrew wrote:

Another red cable in front of pic with something crimpedÂ* to it,
where does that go ?.

FP200 cable for a fire alarm, perhaps

On 17/03/2021 19:09, Andrew wrote:
On 17/03/2021 18:35, ARW wrote:
On 17/03/2021 18:31, tim... wrote:


"The Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 18:06:34 +0000, ARW

wrote:

A house conversion turned into 6 studio apartments 5 years ago

See if you can spot what is wrong. Sorry Brian it's a photo quiz.

1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0

3. The supply to the workshop

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jhwi34rci...kshop.jpg?dl=0

4. Studio 4 CU

https://www.dropbox.com/s/06votomlcq...dioDB.jpg?dl=0

ergh! mode=Lesley Phillips Oo Nasty!/mode

Me no sparky but - nasty!!!

surely the wiring inside a CU always looks a mess.Â* That's why they
have a cover on .

That doesn't make the actual connections fundamentally wrong






Except in both DBs the connections are fundamentally wrong:-)


Three phase company fuses then a single phase meter for something.


Where are the neters for each flat ?


These are studio flats in Doncaster. The sort of place you get all your
bills included with the monthly rent apart from the council tax and you
are guaranteed at least one mad Irish woman living in one of the studios
at all times (it's in the tenancy agreement that you have to have at a
minimum of one living there at all times).

So the flats do not need individual meters.



--
Adam

On 17/03/2021 19:37, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote:

Another red cable in front of pic with something crimpedÂ* to it,
where does that go ?.

FP200 cable for a fire alarm, perhaps


Which went straight to a switched fused spur above the fire alarm
panel..............

--
Adam

On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 18:27:26 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:
1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0

Neutral into an earth bar, not the neutral bar?

Also, this is the main switch for the installation, as it has the meter
(or lack of) connected directly - shouldn't the main switch be 4 pole i.e
switching the neutral as well as the phases?

There also seems to be a bit of a gap next to the three MCBs on the right
- are these actually the right MCBs for this board? They look smaller
than the others.

As if you needed another one - it looks like the workshop supply goes
through two different holes. I was under the impression that this wasn't
allowed, as it creates eddy currents in the case.

Mike

ARW wrote:

These are studio flats in Doncaster. The sort of place you get all your
bills included with the monthly rent apart from the council tax and you
are guaranteed at least one mad Irish woman living in one of the studios
at all times

So how much did you feel compelled to fix there-and-then, and how much
are they getting a quote for?

On 17/03/2021 20:27, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

These are studio flats in Doncaster. The sort of place you get all
your bills included with the monthly rent apart from the council tax
and you are guaranteed at least one mad Irish woman living in one of
the studios at all times

So how much did you feel compelled to fix there-and-then, and how much
are they getting a quote for?

I swapped the LN reversal over in no 4 so that I could do the test.

I also cut the plug off the oven.

No 4 is unoccupied.




--
Adam

On 17 Mar 2021 at 18:41:32 GMT, "ARW" wrote:

On 17/03/2021 18:36, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

ARW wrote:

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0

Correct on all 3.

So what's fishy about photo number 2?

other two(?) meters have their neutral going through the meter shown?
Unless it's a case of "what other meters?"


It "is what other meters". There is just a single phase meter on one of
the phases:-)

It's not obvious in that photograph what the earthing arrangements are. And
if it is an earth stake somewhere shouldn't it he heavier wire for main
bonding or something?

--
Roger Hayter

On 17/03/2021 18:06, ARW wrote:
A house conversion turned into 6 studio apartments 5 years ago

See if you can spot what is wrong. Sorry Brian it's a photo quiz.

1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0

Well the connection to the MICC is "inventive"
You have three domestic MCBs with a 6kA breaking capacity in a "pro"
installation using mostly 10kA MCBs. So probably not type approved, the
contact spacing is a bit off (leaving live busbar exposed), and possibly
with inadequate breaking capacity depending on the supply impedance.


2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0

Well that's one way of keeping the costs down, only meter 1 of the three
phases :-)

That main TN-S earth connection block would probably benefit from being
fixed to something.

3. The supply to the workshop

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jhwi34rci...kshop.jpg?dl=0

The SWA termination is, erm, crap.


4. Studio 4 CU

https://www.dropbox.com/s/06votomlcq...dioDB.jpg?dl=0

Well there is a L&N reversal on the main switch... maybe it's the camera
angle but I can't follow what is going on with those connections to the
RCDs - I am guessing there is a brown wire (possibly with a crimped
spade on the end) connected to the top of the RH RCD that's hidden
behind the bridge wire to the other RCD?



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 17/03/2021 18:06, ARW wrote:
A house conversion turned into 6 studio apartments 5 years ago

See if you can spot what is wrong. Sorry Brian it's a photo quiz.

1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0

3. The supply to the workshop

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jhwi34rci...kshop.jpg?dl=0

4. Studio 4 CU

https://www.dropbox.com/s/06votomlcq...dioDB.jpg?dl=0


No labels.

Mike

On 17/03/2021 20:01, Mike Humphrey wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 18:27:26 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:
1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0

Neutral into an earth bar, not the neutral bar?

Also, this is the main switch for the installation, as it has the meter
(or lack of) connected directly - shouldn't the main switch be 4 pole i.e
switching the neutral as well as the phases?

There also seems to be a bit of a gap next to the three MCBs on the right
- are these actually the right MCBs for this board? They look smaller
than the others.

As if you needed another one - it looks like the workshop supply goes
through two different holes. I was under the impression that this wasn't
allowed, as it creates eddy currents in the case.


You do not need to switch the neutral on 3 phase. Although in this case
it would be allowed.


--
Adam

On 18/03/2021 11:01, Owain Lastname wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 March 2021 at 18:06:50 UTC, ARW wrote:
A house conversion turned into 6 studio apartments 5 years ago
See if you can spot what is wrong. Sorry Brian it's a photo quiz.

The number of lives and neutrals through the same hole isn't the same?

Owain


I think they are.

Look at the top of pic of the cut out. The cables are bunched up into
two groups below each hole.

Probably just the way the camera worked.

--
Adam

On 17/03/2021 21:13, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 17 Mar 2021 at 18:41:32 GMT, "ARW" wrote:

On 17/03/2021 18:36, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

ARW wrote:

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0

Correct on all 3.

So what's fishy about photo number 2?

other two(?) meters have their neutral going through the meter shown?
Unless it's a case of "what other meters?"


It "is what other meters". There is just a single phase meter on one of
the phases:-)

It's not obvious in that photograph what the earthing arrangements are. And
if it is an earth stake somewhere shouldn't it he heavier wire for main
bonding or something?


The earth also needs upgrading (I was not expecting anyone to spot that)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vlcla0397i...earth.jpg?dl=0

and runs to the Henley bock that you can see on the cut out photo.


--
Adam

On 18/03/2021 11:53, Muddymike wrote:
On 17/03/2021 18:06, ARW wrote:
A house conversion turned into 6 studio apartments 5 years ago

See if you can spot what is wrong. Sorry Brian it's a photo quiz.

1. The main DB supplying the flats and the workshop at the rear.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oft1yhmsnl...ainDB.jpg?dl=0

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0

3. The supply to the workshop

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jhwi34rci...kshop.jpg?dl=0

4. Studio 4 CU

https://www.dropbox.com/s/06votomlcq...dioDB.jpg?dl=0


No labels.





You are half correct. The front cover is labelled to some degree. ie the
words flat repeated 6 times with no flat number. The front cover with
the other labels would sit over the labels you can see. The rest of the
circuits are not labelled.

--
Adam

On 17/03/2021 20:01, Mike Humphrey wrote:


There also seems to be a bit of a gap next to the three MCBs on the right
- are these actually the right MCBs for this board? They look smaller
than the others.

Smart arse:-)

But thanks. I have just worked out what is wrong with them.

They are the wrong way around ie all of them not just the 3 you mentioned.



--
Adam

On 19 Mar 2021 at 09:12:28 GMT, "ARW" wrote:

On 17/03/2021 21:13, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 17 Mar 2021 at 18:41:32 GMT, "ARW"
wrote:

On 17/03/2021 18:36, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

ARW wrote:

2. The cutout for the main DB.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i28vhxch42...utout.jpg?dl=0

Correct on all 3.

So what's fishy about photo number 2?

other two(?) meters have their neutral going through the meter shown?
Unless it's a case of "what other meters?"


It "is what other meters". There is just a single phase meter on one of
the phases:-)

It's not obvious in that photograph what the earthing arrangements are. And
if it is an earth stake somewhere shouldn't it he heavier wire for main
bonding or something?


The earth also needs upgrading (I was not expecting anyone to spot that)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vlcla0397i...earth.jpg?dl=0

and runs to the Henley bock that you can see on the cut out photo.

Yes, I don't think I had anything solid to mention, except it would have been
nice to see an obvious earthing junction on the board - now you mention it I
can see the block you mention just on the edge of thee picture. And any other
bonding would presumably run from that block. Are you allowed to leave bare
wire earth connections if of sufficient gauge?


--
Roger Hayter