After 3 component failures in the past few months (heat engine, water pressure
sensor, pressure gauge), it's looking like my Ideal Logic + is on to its 4th.

On starting heat or water and for about 5 minutes, the boiler makes a loud
resonating sound, a bit like a bearing on its very last throes. It's difficult
to tell where it's coming from with the cover on, centre up. I don't think
it's the fan - the noise stops once the boiler stops firing. Once it settles
down after 5 minutes or so the noise more or less goes, maybe fades in/out for
a few seconds every so often. Recording clips at:


https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...2u?usp=sharing

(After 5 minutes - noise more or less gone, normal sound)
(First 5 minutes - new noise, boiler from cold, stops after about 5 minutes)

Internet searches tend to suggest gas valve, although this sound can't be
heard outside, and the reports I've read suggest it doesn't stop after a few
minutes. Replacement looks relatively straightforward - 5 minute job. Any
comments please?

--
Cheers, Rob

RJH wrote:
After 3 component failures in the past few months (heat engine, water pressure
sensor, pressure gauge), it's looking like my Ideal Logic + is on to its 4th.

On starting heat or water and for about 5 minutes, the boiler makes a loud
resonating sound, a bit like a bearing on its very last throes. It's difficult
to tell where it's coming from with the cover on, centre up. I don't think
it's the fan - the noise stops once the boiler stops firing.

Surely thats when the fan stops too?

My money would be on the fan motor bearing. Having said that, we once had
a boiler that howled due to kettling. This was down to a low static head
of pressure and a pump that wasnt removing heat fast enough.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 11 Feb 2021 at 16:50:13 GMT, "Tim+" wrote:

RJH wrote:
After 3 component failures in the past few months (heat engine, water
pressure
sensor, pressure gauge), it's looking like my Ideal Logic + is on to its
4th.

On starting heat or water and for about 5 minutes, the boiler makes a loud
resonating sound, a bit like a bearing on its very last throes. It's
difficult
to tell where it's coming from with the cover on, centre up. I don't think
it's the fan - the noise stops once the boiler stops firing.

Surely thats when the fan stops too?

I think the fan carries on for a short while after the burner switches off.
The noise certainly sounds like more than I'd expect from just the pump.


My money would be on the fan motor bearing. Having said that, we once had
a boiler that howled due to kettling. This was down to a low static head
of pressure and a pump that wasnt removing heat fast enough.

Yes, thanks, could be. This is a sealed system and the pressure's fine, but I
did post a while back about the burner switching off and the pump running
during heating. So maybe there's a bit of runaway and a failed sensor
somewhere. It's certainly not the sort of sound I'd expect a valve to make.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 11/02/2021 15:50, RJH wrote:
After 3 component failures in the past few months (heat engine, water pressure
sensor, pressure gauge), it's looking like my Ideal Logic + is on to its 4th.

On starting heat or water and for about 5 minutes, the boiler makes a loud
resonating sound, a bit like a bearing on its very last throes. It's difficult
to tell where it's coming from with the cover on, centre up. I don't think
it's the fan - the noise stops once the boiler stops firing. Once it settles
down after 5 minutes or so the noise more or less goes, maybe fades in/out for
a few seconds every so often. Recording clips at:


https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...2u?usp=sharing

(After 5 minutes - noise more or less gone, normal sound)
(First 5 minutes - new noise, boiler from cold, stops after about 5 minutes)

Internet searches tend to suggest gas valve, although this sound can't be
heard outside, and the reports I've read suggest it doesn't stop after a few
minutes. Replacement looks relatively straightforward - 5 minute job. Any
comments please?

If it's yours, and you consider yourself competent, removing the cover
should help you track-down the source. If you're asking out of interest
and will get someone else to fix it then an image search for "ideal
logic boiler parts diagram" should give you an idea of the probable cause.

On 11 Feb 2021 at 17:21:13 GMT, "
wrote:

On 11/02/2021 15:50, RJH wrote:
After 3 component failures in the past few months (heat engine, water
pressure
sensor, pressure gauge), it's looking like my Ideal Logic + is on to its
4th.

On starting heat or water and for about 5 minutes, the boiler makes a loud
resonating sound, a bit like a bearing on its very last throes. It's
difficult
to tell where it's coming from with the cover on, centre up. I don't think
it's the fan - the noise stops once the boiler stops firing. Once it settles
down after 5 minutes or so the noise more or less goes, maybe fades in/out
for
a few seconds every so often. Recording clips at:



https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...2u?usp=sharing

(After 5 minutes - noise more or less gone, normal sound)
(First 5 minutes - new noise, boiler from cold, stops after about 5 minutes)

Internet searches tend to suggest gas valve, although this sound can't be
heard outside, and the reports I've read suggest it doesn't stop after a few
minutes. Replacement looks relatively straightforward - 5 minute job. Any
comments please?

If it's yours, and you consider yourself competent, removing the cover
should help you track-down the source. If you're asking out of interest
and will get someone else to fix it then an image search for "ideal
logic boiler parts diagram" should give you an idea of the probable cause.

Thanks - I've got a decent manual, and I'm quite familiar with the workings.
Just I'm having trouble diagnosing this problem. That said, you're right - I
could almost certainly diagnose it more accurately with the cover off, but I'm
not sure about doing that with the boiler running.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 11/02/2021 15:50, RJH wrote:
After 3 component failures in the past few months (heat engine, water pressure
sensor, pressure gauge), it's looking like my Ideal Logic + is on to its 4th.

On starting heat or water and for about 5 minutes, the boiler makes a loud
resonating sound, a bit like a bearing on its very last throes. It's difficult
to tell where it's coming from with the cover on, centre up. I don't think
it's the fan - the noise stops once the boiler stops firing. Once it settles
down after 5 minutes or so the noise more or less goes, maybe fades in/out for
a few seconds every so often. Recording clips at:


https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...2u?usp=sharing

(After 5 minutes - noise more or less gone, normal sound)
(First 5 minutes - new noise, boiler from cold, stops after about 5 minutes)

Internet searches tend to suggest gas valve, although this sound can't be
heard outside, and the reports I've read suggest it doesn't stop after a few
minutes. Replacement looks relatively straightforward - 5 minute job. Any
comments please?


Water being heated too fast - turn down the gas pressure/turn down the
flame??? The fins on the heat exchanger resonating with the speed of
gas/flame passing over them???

On my very old boiler I had a similar noise, but when the water in the
system was up to temperature. The cure was to turn down the gas to the
burners slightly - an adjustment on the gas valve. My problem only
started when the gas pipe to the boiler was changed from 15mm to 22mm so
possibly marginally increasing the gas pressure as it entered the boiler.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 11/02/2021 17:52, RJH wrote:
On 11 Feb 2021 at 17:21:13 GMT, "
wrote:

On 11/02/2021 15:50, RJH wrote:
After 3 component failures in the past few months (heat engine, water
pressure
sensor, pressure gauge), it's looking like my Ideal Logic + is on to its
4th.

On starting heat or water and for about 5 minutes, the boiler makes a loud
resonating sound, a bit like a bearing on its very last throes. It's
difficult
to tell where it's coming from with the cover on, centre up. I don't think
it's the fan - the noise stops once the boiler stops firing. Once it settles
down after 5 minutes or so the noise more or less goes, maybe fades in/out
for
a few seconds every so often. Recording clips at:



https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...2u?usp=sharing

(After 5 minutes - noise more or less gone, normal sound)
(First 5 minutes - new noise, boiler from cold, stops after about 5 minutes)

Internet searches tend to suggest gas valve, although this sound can't be
heard outside, and the reports I've read suggest it doesn't stop after a few
minutes. Replacement looks relatively straightforward - 5 minute job. Any
comments please?

If it's yours, and you consider yourself competent, removing the cover
should help you track-down the source. If you're asking out of interest
and will get someone else to fix it then an image search for "ideal
logic boiler parts diagram" should give you an idea of the probable cause.

Thanks - I've got a decent manual, and I'm quite familiar with the workings.
Just I'm having trouble diagnosing this problem. That said, you're right - I
could almost certainly diagnose it more accurately with the cover off, but I'm
not sure about doing that with the boiler running.

With most conventional modern boilers no combustion gases will flow into
the boiler casing and so safe to run with the casing off.

I would be tempted to shut off a couple of rads during the first 5 mins
and check if there is a change in volume or tone.

With the cover off I expect you'll be able to detect the issue by
feeling the vibration from the offending component. Pump / fan / gas
valve. I have known heat exchangers amplify noise by hitting a harmonic.

RJH expressed precisely :
I don't think
it's the fan - the noise stops once the boiler stops firing. Once it settles
down after 5 minutes or so the noise more or less goes, maybe fades in/out
for
a few seconds every so often. Recording clips at:

Its the fan, or rather its bearings.

On 11/02/2021 15:50, RJH wrote:
After 3 component failures in the past few months (heat engine, water pressure
sensor, pressure gauge), it's looking like my Ideal Logic + is on to its 4th.

On starting heat or water and for about 5 minutes, the boiler makes a loud
resonating sound, a bit like a bearing on its very last throes. It's difficult
to tell where it's coming from with the cover on, centre up. I don't think
it's the fan - the noise stops once the boiler stops firing. Once it settles
down after 5 minutes or so the noise more or less goes, maybe fades in/out for
a few seconds every so often. Recording clips at:


https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...2u?usp=sharing

(After 5 minutes - noise more or less gone, normal sound)
(First 5 minutes - new noise, boiler from cold, stops after about 5 minutes)

Internet searches tend to suggest gas valve, although this sound can't be
heard outside, and the reports I've read suggest it doesn't stop after a few
minutes. Replacement looks relatively straightforward - 5 minute job. Any
comments please?


At about 10s on 'first five minutes' there's briefly a higher pitched
note changing to a lower pitch. It sounds like a 3:2 ratio, so I'd be
looking for something resonating - it starts off with 1.5 cycles between
it's fixed ends and and settles on 1. It then gets louder and starts
distorting producing a slightly lower fundamental frequency.

Could be a length of pipe, or maybe a panel. Try pressing on various
bits to see if you can damp it. Could be as simple as a loose clamp.

Why does it stop? Expansion? Dunno.

--
Cheers
Clive

On 11 Feb 2021 at 18:28:51 GMT, "Fredxx" wrote:

On 11/02/2021 17:52, RJH wrote:
On 11 Feb 2021 at 17:21:13 GMT, "
wrote:

On 11/02/2021 15:50, RJH wrote:
After 3 component failures in the past few months (heat engine, water
pressure
sensor, pressure gauge), it's looking like my Ideal Logic + is on to its
4th.

On starting heat or water and for about 5 minutes, the boiler makes a loud
resonating sound, a bit like a bearing on its very last throes. It's
difficult
to tell where it's coming from with the cover on, centre up. I don't think
it's the fan - the noise stops once the boiler stops firing. Once it
settles
down after 5 minutes or so the noise more or less goes, maybe fades in/out
for
a few seconds every so often. Recording clips at:




https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...2u?usp=sharing

(After 5 minutes - noise more or less gone, normal sound)
(First 5 minutes - new noise, boiler from cold, stops after about 5
minutes)

Internet searches tend to suggest gas valve, although this sound can't be
heard outside, and the reports I've read suggest it doesn't stop after
a few
minutes. Replacement looks relatively straightforward - 5 minute job. Any
comments please?

If it's yours, and you consider yourself competent, removing the cover
should help you track-down the source. If you're asking out of interest
and will get someone else to fix it then an image search for "ideal
logic boiler parts diagram" should give you an idea of the probable cause.

Thanks - I've got a decent manual, and I'm quite familiar with the workings.
Just I'm having trouble diagnosing this problem. That said, you're right - I
could almost certainly diagnose it more accurately with the cover off, but
I'm
not sure about doing that with the boiler running.

With most conventional modern boilers no combustion gases will flow into
the boiler casing and so safe to run with the casing off.

I'd have thought so - just that the installation manual expressly says not
to.


I would be tempted to shut off a couple of rads during the first 5 mins
and check if there is a change in volume or tone.

Yes, tried that - no change. But the whole cacophony is over within a few
minutes, so it's difficult to tell with certainty.


With the cover off I expect you'll be able to detect the issue by
feeling the vibration from the offending component. Pump / fan / gas
valve. I have known heat exchangers amplify noise by hitting a harmonic.

The fan housing seems to be vibrating a fair bit, and insofar as I can tell,
the noise seems to be coming from there. So I'll try the fan first (fairly low
risk at £20 for a 'pull'). Wouldn't surprise me if it was the gas valve,
though.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 11 Feb 2021 at 18:24:43 GMT, "alan_m" wrote:

On 11/02/2021 15:50, RJH wrote:
After 3 component failures in the past few months (heat engine, water
pressure
sensor, pressure gauge), it's looking like my Ideal Logic + is on to its
4th.

On starting heat or water and for about 5 minutes, the boiler makes a loud
resonating sound, a bit like a bearing on its very last throes. It's
difficult
to tell where it's coming from with the cover on, centre up. I don't think
it's the fan - the noise stops once the boiler stops firing. Once it settles
down after 5 minutes or so the noise more or less goes, maybe fades in/out
for
a few seconds every so often. Recording clips at:



https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...2u?usp=sharing

(After 5 minutes - noise more or less gone, normal sound)
(First 5 minutes - new noise, boiler from cold, stops after about 5 minutes)

Internet searches tend to suggest gas valve, although this sound can't be
heard outside, and the reports I've read suggest it doesn't stop after a few
minutes. Replacement looks relatively straightforward - 5 minute job. Any
comments please?


Water being heated too fast - turn down the gas pressure/turn down the
flame??? The fins on the heat exchanger resonating with the speed of
gas/flame passing over them???

Yes, could be. Diagnosing to that level is beyond my pay grade though :-) I'l
try to keep the thing running through the winter and get somebody in to check
calibration etc. It's had a few components changed recently - but none could
be adjusted in any way.


On my very old boiler I had a similar noise, but when the water in the
system was up to temperature. The cure was to turn down the gas to the
burners slightly - an adjustment on the gas valve. My problem only
started when the gas pipe to the boiler was changed from 15mm to 22mm so
possibly marginally increasing the gas pressure as it entered the boiler.


--
Cheers, Rob

On 11 Feb 2021 at 23:09:17 GMT, "Clive Arthur"
wrote:

On 11/02/2021 15:50, RJH wrote:
After 3 component failures in the past few months (heat engine, water
pressure
sensor, pressure gauge), it's looking like my Ideal Logic + is on to its
4th.

On starting heat or water and for about 5 minutes, the boiler makes a loud
resonating sound, a bit like a bearing on its very last throes. It's
difficult
to tell where it's coming from with the cover on, centre up. I don't think
it's the fan - the noise stops once the boiler stops firing. Once it settles
down after 5 minutes or so the noise more or less goes, maybe fades in/out
for
a few seconds every so often. Recording clips at:



https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...2u?usp=sharing

(After 5 minutes - noise more or less gone, normal sound)
(First 5 minutes - new noise, boiler from cold, stops after about 5 minutes)

Internet searches tend to suggest gas valve, although this sound can't be
heard outside, and the reports I've read suggest it doesn't stop after a few
minutes. Replacement looks relatively straightforward - 5 minute job. Any
comments please?


At about 10s on 'first five minutes' there's briefly a higher pitched
note changing to a lower pitch. It sounds like a 3:2 ratio, so I'd be
looking for something resonating - it starts off with 1.5 cycles between
it's fixed ends and and settles on 1. It then gets louder and starts
distorting producing a slightly lower fundamental frequency.

Could be a length of pipe, or maybe a panel. Try pressing on various
bits to see if you can damp it. Could be as simple as a loose clamp.

Why does it stop? Expansion? Dunno.

Whatever's causing it does seem to excite various pipes etc - as mentioned
above, I'm going to swap out the fan and see if that helps. A google search
suggests that it's not uncommon to diagnose this sort of fault incorrectly for
this boiler.

--
Cheers, Rob

On Thursday, 11 February 2021 at 15:50:31 UTC, RJH wrote:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...2u?usp=sharing

(After 5 minutes - noise more or less gone, normal sound)
(First 5 minutes - new noise, boiler from cold, stops after about 5 minutes)

I don't half feel old... Friday night and here I am sitting here listening to recordings of someone else's boiler... ;-)

Still, I suppose even the youth aren't doing much at the moment so perhaps this counts as fun afterall!

RJH wrote:

Yes, could be. Diagnosing to that level is beyond my pay grade though :-) I'l
try to keep the thing running through the winter and get somebody in to check
calibration etc. It's had a few components changed recently - but none could
be adjusted in any way.

If a fan is going, it might last about a week.

If I was you, I'd order in something just to
take its place. If you can get the item cheaply,
you'll look positively heroic when it blows.
With item in hand, ready to go.

Fans wear. It's an item guaranteed to need replacement.
If you think the device is a keeper, then keeping
a spare fan next to the machine might make sense.

The only reason for me mentioning this, is when
I needed a fan, it wasn't a stock item. I should
have been more proactive.

My fan was *designed* to make a noise as it was
failing. If the motor had been ordinary, it would
have been quiet, until the instant it stalled.
Whereas what they did, was use materials so it
could "clang together for quite a while before stalling".
The noise is supposed to make you "call someone immediately".

Paul

On 12 Feb 2021 at 23:10:41 GMT, "Paul" wrote:

RJH wrote:

Yes, could be. Diagnosing to that level is beyond my pay grade though :-)
I'l
try to keep the thing running through the winter and get somebody in to
check
calibration etc. It's had a few components changed recently - but none could
be adjusted in any way.

If a fan is going, it might last about a week.

In my last place it rattled away for 2 years, then failed.


If I was you, I'd order in something just to
take its place. If you can get the item cheaply,
you'll look positively heroic when it blows.
With item in hand, ready to go.

I have, thanks. But just a 'pull' from ebay for £20 (but with a 3 month
warranty, and tested by a 5000+ seller). I'm still not 100% it's the fan, but
figured trying a swap would be no great hardship.

--
Cheers, Rob

On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 15:40:28 +0000 (UTC), RJH wrote:

Whatever's causing it does seem to excite various pipes etc - as mentioned
above, I'm going to swap out the fan and see if that helps. A google search
suggests that it's not uncommon to diagnose this sort of fault incorrectly for
this boiler.

.... or try to oil the fan bearings. Probably a temporary fix at best --sintered
bearings are picky about lube, and a drop of oil isn't enough once they are
gone-- but if you oil them and the problem goes away, you've found the problem.

(And you might get in touch with Geoff (formerly of this parish) at Cet Ltd...)


Thomas Prufer

On 13 Feb 2021 at 07:57:57 GMT, "Thomas Prufer"
wrote:

On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 15:40:28 +0000 (UTC), RJH wrote:

Whatever's causing it does seem to excite various pipes etc - as mentioned
above, I'm going to swap out the fan and see if that helps. A google search
suggests that it's not uncommon to diagnose this sort of fault incorrectly
for
this boiler.

... or try to oil the fan bearings. Probably a temporary fix at best
--sintered
bearings are picky about lube, and a drop of oil isn't enough once they are
gone-- but if you oil them and the problem goes away, you've found the
problem.

I did have a look for any sign of an aperture/lubrication point. But it's all
encased, and at £20 for a s/h part, I can wait the couple of days it'll take
to get here.


(And you might get in touch with Geoff (formerly of this parish) at Cet
Ltd...)


Thanks - interesting, and I'll certainly take a look, especially when the PCB
inevitably fails :-) These boilers seem to have a ready supply of s/h spares.
I dread to think how many have been replaced after an easily replaced
component failure

Small update - the noise changes noticeably and instantly when the CH
temperature's adjusted. Suggests to me the valve - so I've ordered one of
those too.


--
Cheers, Rob

On 11 Feb 2021 at 15:50:22 GMT, "RJH" wrote:

After 3 component failures in the past few months (heat engine, water
pressure
sensor, pressure gauge), it's looking like my Ideal Logic + is on to its 4th.

On starting heat or water and for about 5 minutes, the boiler makes a loud
resonating sound, a bit like a bearing on its very last throes. It's
difficult
to tell where it's coming from with the cover on, centre up. I don't think
it's the fan - the noise stops once the boiler stops firing. Once it settles
down after 5 minutes or so the noise more or less goes, maybe fades in/out
for
a few seconds every so often. Recording clips at:



https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...2u?usp=sharing

(After 5 minutes - noise more or less gone, normal sound)
(First 5 minutes - new noise, boiler from cold, stops after about 5 minutes)

Internet searches tend to suggest gas valve, although this sound can't be
heard outside, and the reports I've read suggest it doesn't stop after a few
minutes. Replacement looks relatively straightforward - 5 minute job. Any
comments please?

FWIW, replaced both the valve and the fan with 'pulls', about £20 each from
ebay. Pretty much exactly the same. Went over the whole boiler, checked
connections and joins. Nothing out of place, a cracked plastic flue to case
locator (I think) superglued and refitted. On firing up, still a noise, but
slightly quieter. Then, while I had a rest from it all for a few days, the
noise got quieter and has now gone. No idea what is was all about.

--
Cheers, Rob