Anyone convinced?

Powering up: UK hills could be used as energy 'batteries'

Engineers explore using gentle slopes rather than steep dams or mountains to store electricity

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ergy-batteries

RheEnergise is bringing innovation to pumped hydro storage. We call our new solution High-Density Hydro „¢.

HD Hydro „¢ uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢, which has 2.5x the density of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the power and 2.5x the energy when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢ actually is?

They claim: Our innovative fluid R-19 TM is environmentally benign and has been engineered to be non-reactive and non-corrosive.

On 08/02/2021 08:42, polygonum_on_google wrote:
Anyone convinced?

Powering up: UK hills could be used as energy 'batteries'

Engineers explore using gentle slopes rather than steep dams or mountains to store electricity

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ergy-batteries

RheEnergise is bringing innovation to pumped hydro storage. We call our new solution High-Density Hydro „¢.

HD Hydro „¢ uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢, which has 2.5x the density of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the power and 2.5x the energy when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢ actually is?

They claim: Our innovative fluid R-19 TM is environmentally benign and has been engineered to be non-reactive and non-corrosive.



I expect they say its because of PE = m.g.h

where PE is Potential energy = mass x value of gravity x hieght.

So by increasing the mass by 2.5x, you then get 2.5 x the PE.

In article , S
wrote:
On 08/02/2021 08:42, polygonum_on_google wrote:
Anyone convinced?

Powering up: UK hills could be used as energy 'batteries'

Engineers explore using gentle slopes rather than steep dams or
mountains to store electricity

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ergy-batteries

RheEnergise is bringing innovation to pumped hydro storage. We call our
new solution High-Density Hydro �.

HD Hydro � uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 �, which has 2.5x the
density of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the power and
2.5x the energy when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 � actually is?

They claim: Our innovative fluid R-19 TM is environmentally benign and
has been engineered to be non-reactive and non-corrosive.



I expect they say its because of PE = m.g.h

where PE is Potential energy = mass x value of gravity x hieght.

So by increasing the mass by 2.5x, you then get 2.5 x the PE.

But you've had to expend 2.5 the amount of power to get it up hill first.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 08/02/2021 08:42, polygonum_on_google wrote:
Anyone convinced?

Powering up: UK hills could be used as energy 'batteries'

Engineers explore using gentle slopes rather than steep dams or
mountains to store electricity

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ergy-batteries

RheEnergise is bringing innovation to pumped hydro storage. We call
our new solution High-Density Hydro „¢.

HD Hydro „¢ uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢, which has 2.5x the
density of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the power and
2.5x the energy when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢ actually is?

Snake oil. You would need to manufacture and handle it in enormous
quantities to store enough energy to be worthwhile. Liquid bromine is
the first thing that springs to mind with about that density. But it
doesn't match the non-reactive/non-corrosive tags.

Gallium would be even better nearly 6x the denisty of water and melts at
about 40C. Relatively benign otherwise.

They claim: Our innovative fluid R-19 TM is environmentally benign
and has been engineered to be non-reactive and non-corrosive.
R-19 TM is an odd choice of name for a eco ******** product.

It signifies hazardous risk of forming organic peroxides in chemistry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R-phrases#R19

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin Brown wrote:
Snake oil. You would need to manufacture and handle it in enormous
quantities to store enough energy to be worthwhile. Liquid bromine is
the first thing that springs to mind with about that density. But it
doesn't match the non-reactive/non-corrosive tags.

Barium sulphate is used as a component of drilling mud because it has a
density 4.5x that of water. Mud ponds are something the oil industry already
knows how to deal with, although they aren't pretty. Drilling muds overall
go up to about 2.4x

It sounds a bit like the oil industry is in decline they're looking for a
new market for their existing product. Pumping drilling mud is something
they already do at scale.

Although it's really hard to compete with 'free' water. I wonder how big a
tank you would need for a decent sized battery at average UK hilliness?

Theo

polygonum_on_google wrote:
Anyone convinced?

Powering up: UK hills could be used as energy 'batteries'

Engineers explore using gentle slopes rather than steep dams or mountains
to store electricity

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ergy-batteries

RheEnergise is bringing innovation to pumped hydro storage. We call our
new solution High-Density Hydro „¢.

HD Hydro „¢ uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢, which has 2.5x the
density of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the power and 2.5x
the energy when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢ actually is?

Dunno but barium salts are commonly used to increase the density of
drilling mud.

Cant imagine that suspended particles would do a turbine any good though.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

polygonum_on_google wrote:

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢ actually is?

Looks like milkshake

https://vimeo.com/495158864

S wrote:

I expect they say its because of PE =Â* m.g.h
where PE is Potential energy = massÂ* x value of gravity x hieght.
So by increasing the mass by 2.5x, you then get 2.5 x the PE.

but as well as getting 2.5x out, you have to put 2.5x in, plus you have
to deal with losses from pumping a more viscous fluid.

On 08/02/2021 10:23, Theo wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:
Snake oil. You would need to manufacture and handle it in enormous
quantities to store enough energy to be worthwhile. Liquid bromine is
the first thing that springs to mind with about that density. But it
doesn't match the non-reactive/non-corrosive tags.

Barium sulphate is used as a component of drilling mud because it has a
density 4.5x that of water. Mud ponds are something the oil industry already
knows how to deal with, although they aren't pretty. Drilling muds overall
go up to about 2.4x

It sounds a bit like the oil industry is in decline they're looking for a
new market for their existing product. Pumping drilling mud is something
they already do at scale.

Although it's really hard to compete with 'free' water. I wonder how big a
tank you would need for a decent sized battery at average UK hilliness?

Theo

Art students don't Do Sums.


--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

On 08/02/2021 10:41, Andy Burns wrote:
S wrote:

I expect they say its because of PE =Â* m.g.h
where PE is Potential energy = massÂ* x value of gravity x hieght.
So by increasing the mass by 2.5x, you then get 2.5 x the PE.

but as well as getting 2.5x out, you have to put 2.5x in, plus you have
to deal with losses from pumping a more viscous fluid.

It's proposed as a battery; no batteries are 100% efficient.
Dinorwig is similar (albeit using water) and has been in use for many years.

On 08/02/2021 09:58, Martin Brown wrote:
On 08/02/2021 08:42, polygonum_on_google wrote:
Anyone convinced?

Powering up: UK hills could be used as energy 'batteries'

Engineers explore using gentle slopes rather than steep dams or
mountains to store electricity

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ergy-batteries


Â*RheEnergise is bringing innovation to pumped hydro storage. We call
our new solution High-Density Hydro „¢.

HD Hydro „¢ uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢, which has 2.5x the
density of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the power and
2.5x the energy when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢ actually is?

Snake oil. You would need to manufacture and handle it in enormous
quantities to store enough energy to be worthwhile. Liquid bromine is
the first thing that springs to mind with about that density. But it
doesn't match the non-reactive/non-corrosive tags.

Gallium would be even better nearly 6x the denisty of water and melts at
about 40C. Relatively benign otherwise.

They claim: Our innovative fluid R-19 TM is environmentally benign
and has been engineered to be non-reactive and non-corrosive.
Â*R-19 TM is an odd choice of name for a eco ******** product.

It signifies hazardous risk of forming organic peroxides in chemistry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R-phrases#R19


Go the whole hog and use Mercury.

On Monday, 8 February 2021 at 09:11:52 UTC, S wrote:
On 08/02/2021 08:42, polygonum_on_google wrote:
Anyone convinced?

Powering up: UK hills could be used as energy 'batteries'

Engineers explore using gentle slopes rather than steep dams or mountains to store electricity

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ergy-batteries

RheEnergise is bringing innovation to pumped hydro storage. We call our new solution High-Density Hydro „¢.

HD Hydro „¢ uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢, which has 2.5x the density of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the power and 2.5x the energy when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢ actually is?

They claim: Our innovative fluid R-19 TM is environmentally benign and has been engineered to be non-reactive and non-corrosive.

I expect they say its because of PE = m.g.h

where PE is Potential energy = mass x value of gravity x hieght.

So by increasing the mass by 2.5x, you then get 2.5 x the PE.

Trouble with that is they appear to be claiming same sort of capacity despite lower height AND gentler slope AND (from the diagram) smaller volume. They can only get the advantage of higher density once but their claims appear to require them to do so three or four times over.

On 08/02/2021 11:03, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 08/02/2021 09:58, Martin Brown wrote:
On 08/02/2021 08:42, polygonum_on_google wrote:
Anyone convinced?

Powering up: UK hills could be used as energy 'batteries'

Engineers explore using gentle slopes rather than steep dams or
mountains to store electricity

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ergy-batteries


Â*RheEnergise is bringing innovation to pumped hydro storage. We call
our new solution High-Density Hydro „¢.

HD Hydro „¢ uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢, which has 2.5x the
density of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the power and
2.5x the energy when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢ actually is?

Snake oil. You would need to manufacture and handle it in enormous
quantities to store enough energy to be worthwhile. Liquid bromine is
the first thing that springs to mind with about that density. But it
doesn't match the non-reactive/non-corrosive tags.

Gallium would be even better nearly 6x the denisty of water and melts
at about 40C. Relatively benign otherwise.

They claim: Our innovative fluid R-19 TM is environmentally benign
and has been engineered to be non-reactive and non-corrosive.
Â*Â*R-19 TM is an odd choice of name for a eco ******** product.

It signifies hazardous risk of forming organic peroxides in chemistry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R-phrases#R19


Go the whole hog and use Mercury.

Yeah! Specific gravity 13.6!

--
Max Demian

In article , Theo
wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:
Snake oil. You would need to manufacture and handle it in enormous
quantities to store enough energy to be worthwhile. Liquid bromine is
the first thing that springs to mind with about that density. But it
doesn't match the non-reactive/non-corrosive tags.

Barium sulphate is used as a component of drilling mud because it has a
density 4.5x that of water. Mud ponds are something the oil industry
already knows how to deal with, although they aren't pretty. Drilling
muds overall go up to about 2.4x

It sounds a bit like the oil industry is in decline they're looking for a
new market for their existing product. Pumping drilling mud is something
they already do at scale.

Although it's really hard to compete with 'free' water. I wonder how big
a tank you would need for a decent sized battery at average UK hilliness?

Theo

and you'd need one at both ends

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Tim Streater has brought this to us :
How big is the lake at the top of Dinorwig?

9.1 GWh

On 08/02/2021 11:06, polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Monday, 8 February 2021 at 09:11:52 UTC, S wrote:
On 08/02/2021 08:42, polygonum_on_google wrote:
Anyone convinced?

Powering up: UK hills could be used as energy 'batteries'

Engineers explore using gentle slopes rather than steep dams or
mountains to store electricity

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ergy-batteries



RheEnergise is bringing innovation to pumped hydro storage. We call our
new solution High-Density Hydro „¢.

HD Hydro „¢ uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢, which has 2.5x
the density of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the
power and 2.5x the energy when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢ actually is?

They claim: Our innovative fluid R-19 TM is environmentally
benign and has been engineered to be non-reactive and
non-corrosive.

I expect they say its because of PE = m.g.h

where PE is Potential energy = mass x value of gravity x hieght.

So by increasing the mass by 2.5x, you then get 2.5 x the PE.

Trouble with that is they appear to be claiming same sort of capacity
despite lower height AND gentler slope AND (from the diagram) smaller
volume. They can only get the advantage of higher density once but
their claims appear to require them to do so three or four times
over.

The slope is not really of much interest - it's the height difference
and the total mass of liquid that matters when determining the storage
capacity.

The pipe cross section has no effect on capacity, but does affect power
output - since it dictates the rate at which you can move a mass of fluid.

As usual (its the guardian, so what do you expect!) they seem to confuse
energy and power (i.e. talking about MWh and MW in the wrong contexts)

So for example in the UK our main pumped hydro stations have a total
storage capacity close to 30GWh, but a maximum power output of about
3GW. So in theory could provide 3GW of power for about 10 hours. (in
reality is not quite that good since not all of the stations have the
same ratio of capacity to power output).



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

I don't know but where is the actual point? It is presumably that it will
take up less room. So what do we know that is heavier by volume than water?
Obviously not mercury if its benign, and one supposes does not evaporate
either.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
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"polygonum_on_google" wrote in message
...
Anyone convinced?

Powering up: UK hills could be used as energy 'batteries'

Engineers explore using gentle slopes rather than steep dams or mountains to
store electricity

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ergy-batteries

RheEnergise is bringing innovation to pumped hydro storage. We call our new
solution High-Density Hydro T.

HD Hydro T uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 T, which has 2.5x the density
of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the power and 2.5x the energy
when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 T actually is?

They claim: Our innovative fluid R-19 TM is environmentally benign and has
been engineered to be non-reactive and non-corrosive.

Yes but they say hydro, so if its not water how can it be hydro, and who
would want this stuff running around on our lovely country hillsides anyway?
Does this also mean that things that sink in water will float in this
stuff?
As I say the only saving I see is in the space needed to store it.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"S" wrote in message
news
On 08/02/2021 08:42, polygonum_on_google wrote:
Anyone convinced?

Powering up: UK hills could be used as energy 'batteries'

Engineers explore using gentle slopes rather than steep dams or mountains
to store electricity

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ergy-batteries

RheEnergise is bringing innovation to pumped hydro storage. We call our
new solution High-Density Hydro T.

HD Hydro T uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 T, which has 2.5x the
density of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the power and 2.5x
the energy when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 T actually is?

They claim: Our innovative fluid R-19 TM is environmentally benign and
has been engineered to be non-reactive and non-corrosive.



I expect they say its because of PE = m.g.h

where PE is Potential energy = mass x value of gravity x hieght.

So by increasing the mass by 2.5x, you then get 2.5 x the PE.

I don't think they are disputing that, its the actual mas vs volume that
they are talking about.
Everything I know that is heavy is certainly not benign, so what exactly
is it?
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , S
wrote:
On 08/02/2021 08:42, polygonum_on_google wrote:
Anyone convinced?

Powering up: UK hills could be used as energy 'batteries'

Engineers explore using gentle slopes rather than steep dams or
mountains to store electricity

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ergy-batteries

RheEnergise is bringing innovation to pumped hydro storage. We call our
new solution High-Density Hydro �.

HD Hydro � uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 �, which has 2.5x the
density of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the power and
2.5x the energy when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 � actually is?

They claim: Our innovative fluid R-19 TM is environmentally benign and
has been engineered to be non-reactive and non-corrosive.



I expect they say its because of PE = m.g.h

where PE is Potential energy = mass x value of gravity x hieght.

So by increasing the mass by 2.5x, you then get 2.5 x the PE.

But you've had to expend 2.5 the amount of power to get it up hill first.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Is it moreviscous though? Does it have to be? I wonder if it freezes like
water does? That could be embarrassing on a day like today, sorry guv our
battery is now an ice rink.
Brian

--

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"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
S wrote:

I expect they say its because of PE = m.g.h
where PE is Potential energy = mass x value of gravity x hieght.
So by increasing the mass by 2.5x, you then get 2.5 x the PE.

but as well as getting 2.5x out, you have to put 2.5x in, plus you have to
deal with losses from pumping a more viscous fluid.

Yes you could though get a better rate of power generation from the same
size plant using a heavier fluid, as long as it was no more viscous, if it
was then the power would plummet due to friction and various other losses.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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"John Rumm" wrote in message
news
On 08/02/2021 11:06, polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Monday, 8 February 2021 at 09:11:52 UTC, S wrote:
On 08/02/2021 08:42, polygonum_on_google wrote:
Anyone convinced?

Powering up: UK hills could be used as energy 'batteries'

Engineers explore using gentle slopes rather than steep dams or
mountains to store electricity

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ergy-batteries



RheEnergise is bringing innovation to pumped hydro storage. We call our
new solution High-Density Hydro T.

HD Hydro T uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 T, which has 2.5x
the density of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the
power and 2.5x the energy when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 T actually is?

They claim: Our innovative fluid R-19 TM is environmentally
benign and has been engineered to be non-reactive and
non-corrosive.

I expect they say its because of PE = m.g.h

where PE is Potential energy = mass x value of gravity x hieght.

So by increasing the mass by 2.5x, you then get 2.5 x the PE.

Trouble with that is they appear to be claiming same sort of capacity
despite lower height AND gentler slope AND (from the diagram) smaller
volume. They can only get the advantage of higher density once but
their claims appear to require them to do so three or four times
over.

The slope is not really of much interest - it's the height difference and
the total mass of liquid that matters when determining the storage
capacity.

The pipe cross section has no effect on capacity, but does affect power
output - since it dictates the rate at which you can move a mass of fluid.

As usual (its the guardian, so what do you expect!) they seem to confuse
energy and power (i.e. talking about MWh and MW in the wrong contexts)

So for example in the UK our main pumped hydro stations have a total
storage capacity close to 30GWh, but a maximum power output of about 3GW.
So in theory could provide 3GW of power for about 10 hours. (in reality is
not quite that good since not all of the stations have the same ratio of
capacity to power output).



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/02/2021 08:42, polygonum_on_google wrote:
Anyone convinced?

Powering up: UK hills could be used as energy 'batteries'

Engineers explore using gentle slopes rather than steep dams or mountains to store electricity

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ergy-batteries

RheEnergise is bringing innovation to pumped hydro storage. We call our new solution High-Density Hydro „¢.

HD Hydro „¢ uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢, which has 2.5x the density of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the power and 2.5x the energy when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢ actually is?

They claim: Our innovative fluid R-19 TM is environmentally benign and has been engineered to be non-reactive and non-corrosive.


Figures from BBC article...

'Bigger than Olympic swimming pool'. Say twice as big, so 5000 m^3

'2.5 x density of water' so 12500 T or 12.5E6 kg

'200m high' so 200 * 12.5E6 * 9.81 joules = 24.5E9 J

/3600 = 6.8 MW-h

'700 sites around the country' so 4.77 GW-h

Is that right?

They claim '7 GW' presumably meaning 7 GW-h, so you'd need to make them
bigger, or higher, or denser, or increase g, and no account taken of
losses. But like all good schemes for attracting investment, within the
realms of credibility, just.

Wouldn't fancy being in the village at the bottom of the hill when the
pool breaks.

--
Cheers
Clive

On 08/02/2021 08:42, polygonum_on_google wrote:
Anyone convinced?

Powering up: UK hills could be used as energy 'batteries'

Engineers explore using gentle slopes rather than steep dams or mountains to store electricity

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ergy-batteries

RheEnergise is bringing innovation to pumped hydro storage. We call our new solution High-Density Hydro „¢.

HD Hydro „¢ uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢, which has 2.5x the density of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the power and 2.5x the energy when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢ actually is?

They claim: Our innovative fluid R-19 TM is environmentally benign and has been engineered to be non-reactive and non-corrosive.


" Chief executive Stephen Crosher told Professional Engineering that the
liquid is a fine-milled suspended solid in water, with low viscosity and
low abrasion characteristics. The base material is used in oral
medication applications, in a similar way that chalk is used as a
bulking agent for pills and tablets. He said the raw materials are
common and available, including in the UK, and the fluid could either be
manufactured on-site or at a depot. "

https://www.imeche.org/news/news-article/high-density-pumped-hydro-could-be-installed-on-thousands-of-small-hills


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 08/02/2021 09:11, S wrote:

I expect they say its because of PE =Â* m.g.h

where PE is Potential energy

I never had any energy at all in PE.

Bill

On 08/02/2021 08:42, polygonum_on_google wrote:


HD Hydro „¢ uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢, which has 2.5x the density of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the power and 2.5x the energy when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢ actually is?

They claim: Our innovative fluid R-19 TM is environmentally benign and has been engineered to be non-reactive and non-corrosive.


I assume it is an inorganic salt, perhaps a solution of an iron compound
such as Iron(II) Bromide which is very soluble but can't find any
details of SG for a soltuion.

On 08/02/2021 13:44, Clive Arthur wrote:

snip

Wouldn't fancy being in the village at the bottom of the hill when the
pool breaks.


Mind you, swimming would be a doddle.

--
Cheers
Clive

On 08/02/2021 11:03, Andy Bennet wrote:
Go the whole hog and use Mercury.

Golly a whole planet! That's ambitious!


--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

On 08/02/2021 14:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/02/2021 11:03, Andy Bennet wrote:
Go the whole hog and use Mercury.

Golly a whole planet! That's ambitious!



I'm sure Elon will lend you a extra heavy lift rocket to you!!!!

On 08/02/2021 12:40, Tim Streater wrote:
On 08 Feb 2021 at 12:27:40 GMT, Jethro_uk wrote:

Is it some sort of silly season ?

Apparently we're "only" 2 years from flying cars in 2023.


https://qz.com/1956157/fiat-chrysler-plans-to-mass-produce-flying-cars-by-2023/

tinyurl.com/yx8tugnx

Ah, this old chestnut. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerocar

which I read about when I was a small boy, probably in the Eagle Annual. Where
I also read about how there'd be gyrocopters flying from airports to city
centres for passengers by 1960.

It was supposed to be the Fairey Rotodyne - which actually first flew in
1957.

A clever idea. A large gyrocopter, using tip jets to power the rotor for
vertical take-off, hovering and vertical landing. However, incredibly
noisy and totally unsuitable for populated areas.

Mercury ? :-)

On 08/02/2021 13:24, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
I don't think they are disputing that, its the actual mas vs volume that
they are talking about.
Everything I know that is heavy is certainly not benign, so what exactly
is it?
Brian

They could mount the land-based windmills on giant concrete 'sleds'
running on rails. When it is windy the sled moves itself up the incline
and then has the capability to generate power as it runs back down
again ? :-)

Andrew

On 08/02/2021 13:26, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Is it moreviscous though? Does it have to be? I wonder if it freezes like
water does? That could be embarrassing on a day like today, sorry guv our
battery is now an ice rink.
Brian

On 08/02/2021 17:07, Tim Streater wrote:
On 08 Feb 2021 at 16:32:11 GMT, Andrew
wrote:

They could mount the land-based windmills on giant concrete 'sleds'
running on rails. When it is windy the sled moves itself up the incline
and then has the capability to generate power as it runs back down
again ? :-)

Didn't I see a report about a US scheme that involved storing energy by having
a railway line going up a long slope (few miles IIRC) and allowing trucks with
20 ton blocks of concrete on to roll down the hill to generate volts as they
went?

I think that was powered by pixie dust and unicorn farts.Do they really
think that engineers haven't considered all this years ago?

--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

On Monday, 8 February 2021 at 13:01:38 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/02/2021 11:06, polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Monday, 8 February 2021 at 09:11:52 UTC, S wrote:
On 08/02/2021 08:42, polygonum_on_google wrote:
Anyone convinced?

Powering up: UK hills could be used as energy 'batteries'

Engineers explore using gentle slopes rather than steep dams or
mountains to store electricity

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ergy-batteries



RheEnergise is bringing innovation to pumped hydro storage. We call our
new solution High-Density Hydro „¢.

HD Hydro „¢ uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢, which has 2.5x
the density of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the
power and 2.5x the energy when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢ actually is?

They claim: Our innovative fluid R-19 TM is environmentally
benign and has been engineered to be non-reactive and
non-corrosive.

I expect they say its because of PE = m.g.h

where PE is Potential energy = mass x value of gravity x hieght.

So by increasing the mass by 2.5x, you then get 2.5 x the PE.

Trouble with that is they appear to be claiming same sort of capacity
despite lower height AND gentler slope AND (from the diagram) smaller
volume. They can only get the advantage of higher density once but
their claims appear to require them to do so three or four times
over.
The slope is not really of much interest - it's the height difference
and the total mass of liquid that matters when determining the storage
capacity.

The pipe cross section has no effect on capacity, but does affect power
output - since it dictates the rate at which you can move a mass of fluid..

As usual (its the guardian, so what do you expect!) they seem to confuse
energy and power (i.e. talking about MWh and MW in the wrong contexts)

So for example in the UK our main pumped hydro stations have a total
storage capacity close to 30GWh, but a maximum power output of about
3GW. So in theory could provide 3GW of power for about 10 hours. (in
reality is not quite that good since not all of the stations have the
same ratio of capacity to power output).

The gentleness of the slope might have some importance for engineering - but agreed, none regarding capacity. In the diagram. It is difficult to discern any difference in slope.

And the huge problem that the storage and receiving "tanks" will need to change level pretty dramatically. Are they going to be open air? Or covered? How will they manage dilution by rain, if open? They are hardly going to count as amenities for fishing, sailing, swimming, etc.

Clive Arthur wrote:
Figures from BBC article...

'Bigger than Olympic swimming pool'. Say twice as big, so 5000 m^3

'2.5 x density of water' so 12500 T or 12.5E6 kg

'200m high' so 200 * 12.5E6 * 9.81 joules = 24.5E9 J

/3600 = 6.8 MW-h

'700 sites around the country' so 4.77 GW-h

Is that right?

Sounds about right. You could imagine a larger volume - for example a
warehouse 100m x 50m x 5m, but that's only a factor of 5.

I wonder how it compares with flow batteries? You need a different kind of
TechnoGloop (TM), but the batteries don't need a hillside. So you could have
two adjacent tanks, or one tank with some kind of diaphragm to keep the
charged and uncharged gloop separate. And you could build that anywhere you
wanted, at any scale.

(you could even combine the two techniques...)

Theo

On 08/02/2021 17:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 08/02/2021 17:07, Tim Streater wrote:
On 08 Feb 2021 at 16:32:11 GMT, Andrew
wrote:

They could mount the land-based windmills on giant concrete 'sleds'
running on rails. When it is windy the sled moves itself up the incline
and then has the capability to generate power as it runs back down
again ? :-)

Didn't I see a report about a US scheme that involved storing energy
by having
a railway line going up a long slope (few miles IIRC) and allowing
trucks with
20 ton blocks of concrete on to roll down the hill to generate volts
as they
went?

I think that was powered by pixie dust and unicorn farts.Do they really
think that engineers haven't considered all this years ago?


Yes, but energy, and notably big oil controls the political
scene in the USA. Engineers only get a look in for stuff like
Rockets and weapons.

On 08/02/2021 17:07, Tim Streater wrote:
On 08 Feb 2021 at 16:32:11 GMT, Andrew
wrote:

They could mount the land-based windmills on giant concrete 'sleds'
running on rails. When it is windy the sled moves itself up the incline
and then has the capability to generate power as it runs back down
again ? :-)

Didn't I see a report about a US scheme that involved storing energy by having
a railway line going up a long slope (few miles IIRC) and allowing trucks with
20 ton blocks of concrete on to roll down the hill to generate volts as they
went?

Previous calcs showed 12.5E6 kg of this heavy liquid for 5000 m^3. If
that were replaced by concrete blocks at 670 kJ/kg to manufacture, then
that would equate to 342 of 200m trips worth of energy just to make the
concrete.

The energy needed to make concrete is about the same as the PE of that
concrete at a height of 67 km.

--
Cheers
Clive

Jethro_uk wrote:

There must be a way to use that energy to make some hydrocarbon
(methane ?) and then transport that when needed ?

Doesn't fit in wires though ...

In message , Tim Streater
writes
On 08 Feb 2021 at 17:49:08 GMT, Clive Arthur wrote:

On 08/02/2021 17:07, Tim Streater wrote:
On 08 Feb 2021 at 16:32:11 GMT, Andrew
wrote:

They could mount the land-based windmills on giant concrete 'sleds'
running on rails. When it is windy the sled moves itself up the incline
and then has the capability to generate power as it runs back down
again ? :-)

Didn't I see a report about a US scheme that involved storing
energy by having
a railway line going up a long slope (few miles IIRC) and allowing
trucks with
20 ton blocks of concrete on to roll down the hill to generate
volts as they
went?

Previous calcs showed 12.5E6 kg of this heavy liquid for 5000 m^3. If
that were replaced by concrete blocks at 670 kJ/kg to manufacture, then
that would equate to 342 of 200m trips worth of energy just to make the
concrete.

The energy needed to make concrete is about the same as the PE of that
concrete at a height of 67 km.

OK belay the concrete and use rocks from the cons doing hard labour in chokey.
The Yanks have 1000000 of them banged up so no shortage there.

Perhaps the York Moors could be re-located to the valleys? All you need
are suitable railway lines with re-generating engines, a lot of trucks
and a flock of TNPs art students to load the wagons.

A money making spin off could be selling the stone for lowland garden
rockeries.


--
Tim Lamb

On 08/02/2021 09:11, S wrote:
On 08/02/2021 08:42, polygonum_on_google wrote:
Anyone convinced?

Powering up: UK hills could be used as energy 'batteries'

Engineers explore using gentle slopes rather than steep dams or
mountains to store electricity

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ergy-batteries


RheEnergise is bringing innovation to pumped hydro storage. We call
our new solution High-Density Hydro „¢.

HD Hydro „¢ uses our proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢, which has 2.5x the
density of water. R-19 gives RheEnergise projects 2.5x the power and
2.5x the energy when compared to water.

https://www.rheenergise.com/

I wonder what their proprietary HD Fluid R-19 „¢ actually is?

They claim: Our innovative fluid R-19 TM is environmentally benign and
has been engineered to be non-reactive and non-corrosive.



I expect they say its because of PE =Â* m.g.h

where PE is Potential energy = massÂ* x value of gravity x hieght.

So by increasing the mass by 2.5x, you then get 2.5 x the PE.




I liked the way their "diagram" shows two plants with the same capacity,
where the water one has about four times the volume and three times the
height. So they would need to be using mercury or molten lead to achieve
that.

On 08/02/2021 16:29, Andrew wrote:
Mercury ? :-)

On 08/02/2021 13:24, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
I don't think they are disputing that, its the actual mas vs volume that
they are talking about.
Â* Everything I know that is heavy isÂ* certainly not benign, so what
exactly
is it?
Brian


13.6 iirc. A bit pricy and one or two environmental issues too.