What's the deal these days with installing a new oven?Â* Im looking at replacement built-in ovens on www.AO.com.Â* My understanding was that ovens either come with a 13A plug attached, in which case you can simply plug them into an ordinary socket; or they need to be hardwired into a suitable existing oven circuit, usually when they are higher current drawers.

But looking at the dropdown options, I see the following:

1. Comes with plug attached, no electrician required
2. Requires plug/cable attaching by an electrician
3. Needs hardwiring by an electricianÂ*

So whats option 2 all about please?!

The second thing is that (apparently!) I have to install 2 single electric ovens side by side. Â*I have a cooker circuit in the kitchen; is it ok to fit two hardwired ovens to this? Â*How about one hardwired oven plus one with a 13A plug (eg can I add a 13A socket to the cooker circuit?)

Thanks!

On 24/11/2020 23:52, Lobster wrote:

What's the deal these days with installing a new oven? Im looking

Much the same as its always been...

at replacement built-in ovens on www.AO.com. My understanding was
that ovens either come with a 13A plug attached, in which case you
can simply plug them into an ordinary socket; or they need to be
hardwired into a suitable existing oven circuit, usually when they
are higher current drawers.

Yup

But looking at the dropdown options, I see the following:

1. Comes with plug attached, no electrician required 2. Requires
plug/cable attaching by an electrician 3. Needs hardwiring by an
electrician

So whats option 2 all about please?!

Perhaps they are assuming that if confronted with anything more
complicated that a pre terminated plug on a lead the user will be lost.

(possibly true for the generation they grew up not having to fit a plug
to every sodding thing you bought!)

The second thing is that (apparently!) I have to install 2 single
electric ovens side by side. I have a cooker circuit in the kitchen;
is it ok to fit two hardwired ovens to this? How about one hardwired
oven plus one with a 13A plug (eg can I add a 13A socket to the
cooker circuit?)

Any combination is possible - but you will need to take into account the
makers instructions, and the max current requirement of the oven, as
well as the fault protection requirements of the oven's flex if its a
pre fitted one.

So for example you have a 32A radial, and two 2.2kW ovens with plug
attached flex, then a double socket or pair of single sockets on the
radial would be fine. (I would keep the total load on a double socket to
under 20A though)

If the ovens expect you to fit a flex, then get some 2.5mm^2 high temp
flex, and you can hardwire both to the radial unless the makers
instruction insist on lower fusing. If you can't fit that size flex in,
then 1.5mm^2 HT flex to a pair of FCUs would be ok.

(note that an isolator for the supply to both that is within easy reach
of the user is good)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/11/2020 23:52:09, Lobster wrote:
What's the deal these days with installing a new oven? Im looking
at replacement built-in ovens on www.AO.com. My understanding was
that ovens either come with a 13A plug attached, in which case you
can simply plug them into an ordinary socket; or they need to be
hardwired into a suitable existing oven circuit, usually when they
are higher current drawers.

But looking at the dropdown options, I see the following:

1. Comes with plug attached, no electrician required 2. Requires
plug/cable attaching by an electrician 3. Needs hardwiring by an
electrician

Nothing needs to be done by an 'electrician' if you're competent to the
wiring yourself.

So whats option 2 all about please?!

1 and 3 combined?

The second thing is that (apparently!) I have to install 2 single
electric ovens side by side. I have a cooker circuit in the kitchen;
is it ok to fit two hardwired ovens to this?

I don't see why not, as long as the circuit is up to the load.

How about one hardwired
oven plus one with a 13A plug (eg can I add a 13A socket to the
cooker circuit?)

I have done this, where I needed power to the igniter on a hob, which I
did through a 13A plug/socket and a cooker outlet for the oven.

A lot of cooker points used to come with a socket already years ago.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Lobster" wrote in message
...
What's the deal these days with installing a new oven? I'm looking at
replacement built-in ovens on www.AO.com. My understanding was that ovens
either come with a 13A plug attached, in which case you can simply plug them
into an ordinary socket; or they need to be hardwired into a suitable
existing oven circuit, usually when they are higher current drawers.

But looking at the dropdown options, I see the following:

1. Comes with plug attached, no electrician required
2. Requires plug/cable attaching by an electrician
3. Needs hardwiring by an electrician

So what's option 2 all about please?!

The second thing is that (apparently!) I have to install 2 single electric
ovens side by side. I have a cooker circuit in the kitchen; is it ok to fit
two hardwired ovens to this? How about one hardwired oven plus one with a
13A plug (eg can I add a 13A socket to the cooker circuit?)

Thanks!

On 25/11/2020 09:41, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

A lot of cooker points used to come with a socket already years ago.
Brian

That's for plugging in a kettle or toaster and would be above the
worktop and not convenient for the oven.

--
Max Demian

On 24/11/2020 23:52, Lobster wrote:

What's the deal these days with installing a new oven?Â* Im looking at replacement built-in ovens on www.AO.com.Â* My understanding was that ovens either come with a 13A plug attached, in which case you can simply plug them into an ordinary socket; or they need to be hardwired into a suitable existing oven circuit, usually when they are higher current drawers.

But looking at the dropdown options, I see the following:

1. Comes with plug attached, no electrician required
2. Requires plug/cable attaching by an electrician
3. Needs hardwiring by an electrician

So whats option 2 all about please?!

Ovens need a heat resistant cable. In any case, nowadays hoi polloi are
considered incapable of wiring a cable to an appliance. You've got to
connect the colours correctly and deal with cable grips.

The second thing is that (apparently!) I have to install 2 single electric ovens side by side. Â*I have a cooker circuit in the kitchen; is it ok to fit two hardwired ovens to this? Â*How about one hardwired oven plus one with a 13A plug (eg can I add a 13A socket to the cooker circuit?)

I would have thought that a double socket wired to the cooker circuit
with 26A wire would be more convenient provided the cooker circuit can
take it.

--
Max Demian

Max Demian wrote:

I would have thought that a double socket wired to the cooker circuit
with 26A wire would be more convenient provided the cooker circuit can
take it.

That's a rather odd understanding of the current rating of wiring and
a double socket IMHO.

--
Chris Green
·

On 25/11/2020 10:39, Max Demian wrote:
On 24/11/2020 23:52, Lobster wrote:

What's the deal these days with installing a new oven?Â* Im looking at
replacement built-in ovens on www.AO.com.Â* My understanding was that
ovens either come with a 13A plug attached, in which case you can
simply plug them into an ordinary socket; or they need to be hardwired
into a suitable existing oven circuit, usually when they are higher
current drawers.

But looking at the dropdown options, I see the following:

1. Comes with plug attached, no electrician required
2. Requires plug/cable attaching by an electrician
3. Needs hardwiring by an electrician

So whats option 2 all about please?!

Ovens need a heat resistant cable.Â* In any case, nowadays hoi polloi are
considered incapable of wiring a cable to an appliance. You've got to
connect the colours correctly and deal with cable grips.


And the same hoi polloi would struggle to remove the outer sheath
of heat-proof (or even non heatproof) 3 core flex, without nicking
the inner cores with their stanley knife (or kitchen knife) :-(

On 25/11/2020 12:14, Andrew wrote:

And the same hoi polloi would struggle to remove the outer sheath
of heat-proof (or even non heatproof) 3 core flex, without nicking
the inner cores with their stanley knife (or kitchen knife) :-(


Is there a foolproof technique for doing that right? If it's T+E, I aim
to score down the middle, where the earth is, then split it by pulling
on the conductors. But, it's not elegant. Is there a better technique
just using a knife?

In article ,
Max Demian wrote:
On 25/11/2020 09:41, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

A lot of cooker points used to come with a socket already years ago.
Brian

That's for plugging in a kettle or toaster and would be above the
worktop and not convenient for the oven.

Yes - absolutely ideal for burning the flex. ;-)

--
*To steal ideas from *one* person is plagiarism; from many, research*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 25 Nov 2020 at 12:23:59 GMT, "GB" wrote:

On 25/11/2020 12:14, Andrew wrote:

And the same hoi polloi would struggle to remove the outer sheath
of heat-proof (or even non heatproof) 3 core flex, without nicking
the inner cores with their stanley knife (or kitchen knife) :-(


Is there a foolproof technique for doing that right? If it's T+E, I aim
to score down the middle, where the earth is, then split it by pulling
on the conductors. But, it's not elegant. Is there a better technique
just using a knife?

I tend to score round as deeply as I dare, and bend.
--
Cheers, Rob

On Wednesday, 25 November 2020 at 12:24:02 UTC, GB wrote:
On 25/11/2020 12:14, Andrew wrote:

And the same hoi polloi would struggle to remove the outer sheath
of heat-proof (or even non heatproof) 3 core flex, without nicking
the inner cores with their stanley knife (or kitchen knife) :-(
Is there a foolproof technique for doing that right? If it's T+E, I aim
to score down the middle, where the earth is, then split it by pulling
on the conductors. But, it's not elegant. Is there a better technique
just using a knife?

Sure, don't cut too deep.


NT

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 12:23:59 +0000, GB wrote:

Is there a foolproof technique for doing that right? If it's T+E, I aim
to score down the middle, where the earth is, then split it by pulling
on the conductors. But, it's not elegant. Is there a better technique
just using a knife?

Just use snips and cut down the lenght of the jacket about 1/2" next
to the E wire. Grip end of E wire with snips and pull into the cut
jacket and fold back the jacket and L N wires. Hold jacket and L N
wires pull the E with the snips to split the jacket for required
length. Extract L N wires from split jacket, Trim jacket with snips,
either just fold it back and make one cut or, slightly neater, two
cuts each way from the base of the split fold back and one cut across
the back.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 25/11/2020 11:27, Chris Green wrote:
Max Demian wrote:

I would have thought that a double socket wired to the cooker circuit
with 26A wire would be more convenient provided the cooker circuit can
take it.

That's a rather odd understanding of the current rating of wiring and
a double socket IMHO.

Why? Each oven could have a 3kW element.

--
Max Demian

Max Demian wrote:
On 25/11/2020 11:27, Chris Green wrote:
Max Demian wrote:

I would have thought that a double socket wired to the cooker circuit
with 26A wire would be more convenient provided the cooker circuit can
take it.

That's a rather odd understanding of the current rating of wiring and
a double socket IMHO.

Why? Each oven could have a 3kW element.

Yes, and running both from the wiring that feeds a twin socket would
quite likely overload it (the wiring).

Twin '13 amp' sockets are generally rated at 20 amps total.

Also, there isn't any such thing as "26A wire".

--
Chris Green
·

On Wed, 25 Nov 2020 17:23:36 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

Max Demian wrote:
On 25/11/2020 11:27, Chris Green wrote:
Max Demian wrote:

I would have thought that a double socket wired to the cooker circuit
with 26A wire would be more convenient provided the cooker circuit can
take it.

That's a rather odd understanding of the current rating of wiring and
a double socket IMHO.

Why? Each oven could have a 3kW element.

Yes, and running both from the wiring that feeds a twin socket would
quite likely overload it (the wiring).

Twin '13 amp' sockets are generally rated at 20 amps total.

Also, there isn't any such thing as "26A wire".

I found out yesterday that the radial to the cooker point with 13A socket is
10 mil - on a 30A MCB. That has a bit of headroom, especially on only 7 - 8m
run. It would run the cooker and a 2 - 3kW oven with a 40A MCB, especially
as the oven is 50 years old and doesn't have lots of grills and ovens
already.
The house was rewired in '91 to 15th. Regs and has a 100A incoming fuse.
When the meter was changed the chap wanted to change the fuse to 80A but I
persuaded him to leave it.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On Wednesday, 25 November 2020 at 17:33:07 UTC, Chris Green wrote:
Max Demian wrote:
On 25/11/2020 11:27, Chris Green wrote:
Max Demian wrote:

I would have thought that a double socket wired to the cooker circuit
with 26A wire would be more convenient provided the cooker circuit can
take it.

That's a rather odd understanding of the current rating of wiring and
a double socket IMHO.

Why? Each oven could have a 3kW element.
Yes, and running both from the wiring that feeds a twin socket would
quite likely overload it (the wiring).

Twin '13 amp' sockets are generally rated at 20 amps total.

Also, there isn't any such thing as "26A wire".

Bell wire can do 13A, if you don't mind it glowing red a bit. But not 26A.

Thanks to all for the clarification. So, looks like with my existing house wiring I can order up pretty much any combo of ovens I want and then worry about the niceities of connecting them up when I have them here on site Which is what I was hoping for...

On Wednesday, 25 November 2020 at 02:00:59 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/11/2020 23:52, Lobster wrote:

What's the deal these days with installing a new oven? Im looking
Much the same as its always been...
at replacement built-in ovens on www.AO.com. My understanding was
that ovens either come with a 13A plug attached, in which case you
can simply plug them into an ordinary socket; or they need to be
hardwired into a suitable existing oven circuit, usually when they
are higher current drawers.
Yup
But looking at the dropdown options, I see the following:

1. Comes with plug attached, no electrician required 2. Requires
plug/cable attaching by an electrician 3. Needs hardwiring by an
electrician

So whats option 2 all about please?!
Perhaps they are assuming that if confronted with anything more
complicated that a pre terminated plug on a lead the user will be lost.

(possibly true for the generation they grew up not having to fit a plug
to every sodding thing you bought!)
The second thing is that (apparently!) I have to install 2 single
electric ovens side by side. I have a cooker circuit in the kitchen;
is it ok to fit two hardwired ovens to this? How about one hardwired
oven plus one with a 13A plug (eg can I add a 13A socket to the
cooker circuit?)
Any combination is possible - but you will need to take into account the
makers instructions, and the max current requirement of the oven, as
well as the fault protection requirements of the oven's flex if its a
pre fitted one.

So I've ended up buying two Neff B1GCC0AN0B single built-in ovens, each rated at 2.99 kW. Turns out they come with a separate flex which has a bespoke Neff plug on one end which connects to the oven, leaving me with 3 bare wires on the free end. Looks like this configuration is the 'option 2' I was on about in my previous post!

So regardless of whether these can connected to a 13A plug, that's not an issue as I'm minded to connect both ovens to my cooker circuit with one of these dual outlet plates, as being a neat, safe and practical solution:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173876127186.

But.

Looking at the installation instructions (http://media3.bsh-group.com/Documents/9001280153_C.pdf).
Page 3 refers to the electrical connection, and distinguishes between power cables with/without a plug with earthing contact, and in particular says "If the plug can no longer be reached after the installation, a partition must be provided in the phases in the permanent electrical installation in accordance with the installation regulations". What in the world is that all about? What can I do other than connect blue to blu, brown to brown etc? Is anyone able to shed any light on this?!

On 30/11/2020 20:56:42, Lobster wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 November 2020 at 02:00:59 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/11/2020 23:52, Lobster wrote:

What's the deal these days with installing a new oven? Im
looking
Much the same as its always been...
at replacement built-in ovens on www.AO.com. My understanding
was that ovens either come with a 13A plug attached, in which
case you can simply plug them into an ordinary socket; or they
need to be hardwired into a suitable existing oven circuit,
usually when they are higher current drawers.
Yup
But looking at the dropdown options, I see the following:

1. Comes with plug attached, no electrician required 2. Requires
plug/cable attaching by an electrician 3. Needs hardwiring by an
electrician

So whats option 2 all about please?!
Perhaps they are assuming that if confronted with anything more
complicated that a pre terminated plug on a lead the user will be
lost.

(possibly true for the generation they grew up not having to fit a
plug to every sodding thing you bought!)
The second thing is that (apparently!) I have to install 2
single electric ovens side by side. I have a cooker circuit in
the kitchen; is it ok to fit two hardwired ovens to this? How
about one hardwired oven plus one with a 13A plug (eg can I add a
13A socket to the cooker circuit?)
Any combination is possible - but you will need to take into
account the makers instructions, and the max current requirement of
the oven, as well as the fault protection requirements of the
oven's flex if its a pre fitted one.

So I've ended up buying two Neff B1GCC0AN0B single built-in ovens,
each rated at 2.99 kW. Turns out they come with a separate flex which
has a bespoke Neff plug on one end which connects to the oven,
leaving me with 3 bare wires on the free end. Looks like this
configuration is the 'option 2' I was on about in my previous post!

So regardless of whether these can connected to a 13A plug, that's
not an issue as I'm minded to connect both ovens to my cooker circuit
with one of these dual outlet plates, as being a neat, safe and
practical solution: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173876127186.

But.

Looking at the installation instructions
(http://media3.bsh-group.com/Documents/9001280153_C.pdf). Page 3
refers to the electrical connection, and distinguishes between power
cables with/without a plug with earthing contact, and in particular
says "If the plug can no longer be reached after the installation, a
partition must be provided in the phases in the permanent electrical
installation in accordance with the installation regulations". What
in the world is that all about? What can I do other than connect blue
to blu, brown to brown etc? Is anyone able to shed any light on
this?!

I think my 'partition' would be the isolation switch on the wall.

How utterly stupid. I'm intrigued what Adam would say!

On 30/11/2020 20:56, Lobster wrote:
snip

Looking at the installation instructions (http://media3.bsh-group.com/Documents/9001280153_C.pdf).
Page 3 refers to the electrical connection, and distinguishes between power cables with/without a plug with earthing contact, and in particular says "If the plug can no longer be reached after the installation, a partition must be provided in the phases in the permanent electrical installation in accordance with the installation regulations". What in the world is that all about? What can I do other than connect blue to blu, brown to brown etc? Is anyone able to shed any light on this?!


I'll wager that's a literal translation from the German. I'd read it as
means of isolation - e.g. a double pole switch in a cooker unit.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Monday, 30 November 2020 at 20:56:45 UTC, Lobster wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 November 2020 at 02:00:59 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/11/2020 23:52, Lobster wrote:

What's the deal these days with installing a new oven? Im looking
Much the same as its always been...
at replacement built-in ovens on www.AO.com. My understanding was
that ovens either come with a 13A plug attached, in which case you
can simply plug them into an ordinary socket; or they need to be
hardwired into a suitable existing oven circuit, usually when they
are higher current drawers.
Yup
But looking at the dropdown options, I see the following:

1. Comes with plug attached, no electrician required 2. Requires
plug/cable attaching by an electrician 3. Needs hardwiring by an
electrician

So whats option 2 all about please?!
Perhaps they are assuming that if confronted with anything more
complicated that a pre terminated plug on a lead the user will be lost.

(possibly true for the generation they grew up not having to fit a plug
to every sodding thing you bought!)
The second thing is that (apparently!) I have to install 2 single
electric ovens side by side. I have a cooker circuit in the kitchen;
is it ok to fit two hardwired ovens to this? How about one hardwired
oven plus one with a 13A plug (eg can I add a 13A socket to the
cooker circuit?)
Any combination is possible - but you will need to take into account the
makers instructions, and the max current requirement of the oven, as
well as the fault protection requirements of the oven's flex if its a
pre fitted one.
So I've ended up buying two Neff B1GCC0AN0B single built-in ovens, each rated at 2.99 kW. Turns out they come with a separate flex which has a bespoke Neff plug on one end which connects to the oven, leaving me with 3 bare wires on the free end. Looks like this configuration is the 'option 2' I was on about in my previous post!

So regardless of whether these can connected to a 13A plug, that's not an issue as I'm minded to connect both ovens to my cooker circuit with one of these dual outlet plates, as being a neat, safe and practical solution:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173876127186.

But.

Looking at the installation instructions (http://media3.bsh-group.com/Documents/9001280153_C.pdf).
Page 3 refers to the electrical connection, and distinguishes between power cables with/without a plug with earthing contact, and in particular says "If the plug can no longer be reached after the installation, a partition must be provided in the phases in the permanent electrical installation in accordance with the installation regulations". What in the world is that all about? What can I do other than connect blue to blu, brown to brown etc? Is anyone able to shed any light on this?!


I am about to install two Bosch 2.9Kw ovens. My oven circuit has 6mm2 T&E wiring through a 45A isolating switch and a 45A connection point. However, since the Ovens are both drawing a maximum of 13A each and the Bosch supplied cables look as though that is the maximum they can cope with. That suggests to me that if the purposes of having fuses is to protect the cables simply wiring the two ovens to the connection point is not correct you are then relying on the MCB in the CU which in my case is a 32A MCB for cable protection. I am going to provide two FSUs fused at 13A each.

Richard

On 30/11/2020 20:56, Lobster wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 November 2020 at 02:00:59 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/11/2020 23:52, Lobster wrote:

What's the deal these days with installing a new oven? Im
looking
Much the same as its always been...
at replacement built-in ovens on www.AO.com. My understanding
was that ovens either come with a 13A plug attached, in which
case you can simply plug them into an ordinary socket; or they
need to be hardwired into a suitable existing oven circuit,
usually when they are higher current drawers.
Yup
But looking at the dropdown options, I see the following:

1. Comes with plug attached, no electrician required 2. Requires
plug/cable attaching by an electrician 3. Needs hardwiring by an
electrician

So whats option 2 all about please?!
Perhaps they are assuming that if confronted with anything more
complicated that a pre terminated plug on a lead the user will be
lost.

(possibly true for the generation they grew up not having to fit a
plug to every sodding thing you bought!)
The second thing is that (apparently!) I have to install 2
single electric ovens side by side. I have a cooker circuit in
the kitchen; is it ok to fit two hardwired ovens to this? How
about one hardwired oven plus one with a 13A plug (eg can I add a
13A socket to the cooker circuit?)
Any combination is possible - but you will need to take into
account the makers instructions, and the max current requirement of
the oven, as well as the fault protection requirements of the
oven's flex if its a pre fitted one.

So I've ended up buying two Neff B1GCC0AN0B single built-in ovens,
each rated at 2.99 kW. Turns out they come with a separate flex which
has a bespoke Neff plug on one end which connects to the oven,
leaving me with 3 bare wires on the free end. Looks like this
configuration is the 'option 2' I was on about in my previous post!

So regardless of whether these can connected to a 13A plug, that's
not an issue as I'm minded to connect both ovens to my cooker circuit
with one of these dual outlet plates, as being a neat, safe and
practical solution: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173876127186.

But.

Looking at the installation instructions
(http://media3.bsh-group.com/Documents/9001280153_C.pdf). Page 3
refers to the electrical connection, and distinguishes between power
cables with/without a plug with earthing contact, and in particular
says "If the plug can no longer be reached after the installation, a
partition must be provided in the phases in the permanent electrical
installation in accordance with the installation regulations". What
in the world is that all about? What can I do other than connect blue
to blu, brown to brown etc? Is anyone able to shed any light on
this?!

Its basically saying there should be a means of isolation. So if you
make connection with a plug, then you can achieve that by withdrawing
the plug. If it's hard wired, then you will need a switch somewhere[1].

Typically I would go with a "cooker" switch with no inbuilt socket
somewhere accessible, feeding your flex outlet tucked behind the ovens.


[1] Dual pole, with = 3mm contact separation


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/