I know many folk are suspicious of the potential for remote control of
their power supplies and potential for malicious hacking but having one
does enable some interesting power tariffs.

Im currently on Octopus Agile which bills you according to half-hourly
electricity rates. Yesterday these rates varied from a peak of about 32p
per kWhr between 4pm and 7pm to under a penny per kWhr through most of the
night.

This tariff isnt going to suit everyone by any means but if you have a
significant amount of power consumption that you can time shift, you can
make big gains by doing so. In my case, we ran our dishwashers and charged
my car overnight for next to nothing.

Downside? Well, cooking the evening meal is the biggest issue as we have a
fan oven but fortunately we havent ditched our gas hob yet so we can still
cook. Judging by other Agile customers comments, even if you do end up
cooking at peak rates bills still seem to be lower due to the variable
rates.

So, smart meters arent all bad. They do have their uses.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Tim+ wrote:

Im currently on Octopus Agile which bills you according to half-hourly
electricity rates. Yesterday these rates varied from a peak of about 32p
per kWhr between 4pm and 7pm to under a penny per kWhr through most of the
night.

How far in advance (if at all) do you know what the rate is going to be?

Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

Im currently on Octopus Agile which bills you according to half-hourly
electricity rates. Yesterday these rates varied from a peak of about 32p
per kWhr between 4pm and 7pm to under a penny per kWhr through most of the
night.

How far in advance (if at all) do you know what the rate is going to be?


From 4pm every day you can see what the rates will be for the next 24
hours. If wed had a smart switch for our immersion heater we would have
run that I think as the rate was zero for several hours last night.

Things get interesting when they occasionally go negative and you get paid
for using power during the night.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On Sunday, 15 November 2020 at 10:08:49 UTC, Tim+ wrote:

Things get interesting when they occasionally go negative and you get paid
for using power during the night.

Interesting! Does it happen often? What's the rationale? I can't see it being in their interest to encourage negative-rate consumption, but then I'm not familiar with how the whole system works.

I suppose 'smart' appliances will really help in this regard, but in the meantime it could make for a good project - Raspberry Pi scraping the next day's figures and then controlling devices via smart relays to turn on/off to suit. Wouldn't work for many electronic items of course, but maybe something like an immersion heater that tops up the hot water tank overnight if the rates go negative/cheap.

Mathew Newton wrote:

Tim+ wrote:

they occasionally go negative and you get paid
for using power during the night.

Interesting! Does it happen often? What's the rationale?

Only when there's too much wind and it's cheaper to pay people to use it
than to pay the windfarms to disconnect.

I think this was the original idea, to attempt to spread loads so the peak
times are not so much of a peak any more.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Tim+" wrote in message
...
I know many folk are suspicious of the potential for remote control of
their power supplies and potential for malicious hacking but having one
does enable some interesting power tariffs.

I'm currently on Octopus Agile which bills you according to half-hourly
electricity rates. Yesterday these rates varied from a peak of about 32p
per kWhr between 4pm and 7pm to under a penny per kWhr through most of the
night.

This tariff isn't going to suit everyone by any means but if you have a
significant amount of power consumption that you can time shift, you can
make big gains by doing so. In my case, we ran our dishwashers and
charged
my car overnight for next to nothing.

Downside? Well, cooking the evening meal is the biggest issue as we have a
fan oven but fortunately we haven't ditched our gas hob yet so we can
still
cook. Judging by other Agile customers' comments, even if you do end up
cooking at peak rates bills still seem to be lower due to the variable
rates.

So, smart meters aren't all bad. They do have their uses.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

I have economy 7, and in effect this is how one can afford to use storage
heaters and yes although I can over ride the immersion heater any time its
mostly on in the early hours. The heaters do not have over rides though,
since their whole supply ring is a switched on in the meter itself.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Mathew Newton" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 15 November 2020 at 10:08:49 UTC, Tim+ wrote:

Things get interesting when they occasionally go negative and you get paid
for using power during the night.

Interesting! Does it happen often? What's the rationale? I can't see it
being in their interest to encourage negative-rate consumption, but then I'm
not familiar with how the whole system works.

I suppose 'smart' appliances will really help in this regard, but in the
meantime it could make for a good project - Raspberry Pi scraping the next
day's figures and then controlling devices via smart relays to turn on/off
to suit. Wouldn't work for many electronic items of course, but maybe
something like an immersion heater that tops up the hot water tank overnight
if the rates go negative/cheap.

Eventually though, if more used it, then they would have to start charging.
Of course if we could crack a truly efficient power storage system, then the
problem of variable rates would go away, and a uniform and lower tariff
would be for all.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Mathew Newton wrote:

Tim+ wrote:

they occasionally go negative and you get paid
for using power during the night.

Interesting! Does it happen often? What's the rationale?

Only when there's too much wind and it's cheaper to pay people to use it
than to pay the windfarms to disconnect.

On 15/11/2020 10:47, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
I have economy 7, and in effect this is how one can afford to use storage
heaters and yes although I can over ride the immersion heater any time its
mostly on in the early hours. The heaters do not have over rides though,
since their whole supply ring is a switched on in the meter itself.
Brian


It's not uncommom for the electro/mechanical E7 timeswitches to be out
of sync with the real time of day after power outages.

On 15/11/2020 10:08, Tim+ wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

Im currently on Octopus Agile which bills you according to half-hourly
electricity rates. Yesterday these rates varied from a peak of about 32p
per kWhr between 4pm and 7pm to under a penny per kWhr through most of the
night.

How far in advance (if at all) do you know what the rate is going to be?


From 4pm every day you can see what the rates will be for the next 24
hours. If wed had a smart switch for our immersion heater we would have
run that I think as the rate was zero for several hours last night.

Things get interesting when they occasionally go negative and you get paid
for using power during the night.

I don't have a smart meter, so prior apologies if the comment below is
made in ignorance.

Are you saying the next 24hrs rates (or even the immediate rates) are
somehow displayed on the Smart Meter through something it accesses
remotely at Octopus Agile? I see on their webpage at it says "This
tariff relies on a smart meter to track the variable cost of your
energy" and "If youre not quite ready to make the leap to Agile but you
have a smart meter that were capturing half-hour data for...".

So the meter is permanently connected to Octopus Agile and they can
affect what it shows by changing the rates every half hour? Is that done
via your broadband connection or some other way?

--

Jeff

On 15/11/2020 11:13, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 15/11/2020 10:08, Tim+ wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

Im currently on Octopus Agile which bills you according to half-hourly
electricity rates. Yesterday these rates varied from a peak of about 32p
per kWhr between 4pm and 7pm to under a penny per kWhr through most of the
night.

How far in advance (if at all) do you know what the rate is going to be?


From 4pm every day you can see what the rates will be for the next 24
hours. If wed had a smart switch for our immersion heater we would have
run that I think as the rate was zero for several hours last night.

Things get interesting when they occasionally go negative and you get paid
for using power during the night.

I don't have a smart meter, so prior apologies if the comment below is
made in ignorance.

Are you saying the next 24hrs rates (or even the immediate rates) are
somehow displayed on the Smart Meter through something it accesses
remotely at Octopus Agile? I see on their webpage at it says "This
tariff relies on a smart meter to track the variable cost of your
energy" and "If youre not quite ready to make the leap to Agile but you
have a smart meter that were capturing half-hour data for...".

So the meter is permanently connected to Octopus Agile and they can
affect what it shows by changing the rates every half hour? Is that done
via your broadband connection or some other way?

Just read "How do Smart meters communicate" at
https://octopus.energy/blog/smart-meters-are-coming/ and see they use
a WAN.

--

Jeff

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

I‘m currently on Octopus Agile which bills you according to
half-hourly electricity rates. Yesterday these rates varied from a
peak of about 32p per kWhr between 4pm and 7pm to under a penny per
kWhr through most of the night.

How far in advance (if at all) do you know what the rate is going to
be?


From 4pm every day you can see what the rates will be for the next 24
hours. If we‘d had a smart switch for our immersion heater we would have
run that I think as the rate was zero for several hours last night.

Things get interesting when they occasionally go negative and you get
paid for using power during the night.

Isn't life a bit short to have to arrange your day around what power costs
at any particular time? ;-)

--
*The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on my list.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman wrote:

Isn't life a bit short to have to arrange your day around what power costs
at any particular time?

Assuming the data is available via an API (or can be scraped anyway) you
could have rules setup to charge the car to full, or bring the heating
on early, or set the hot water a few degrees higher when it's dirt cheap.

Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

Im currently on Octopus Agile which bills you according to half-hourly
electricity rates. Yesterday these rates varied from a peak of about 32p
per kWhr between 4pm and 7pm to under a penny per kWhr through most of the
night.

How far in advance (if at all) do you know what the rate is going to be?


If this link works, this shows recent past, current and future rates for
today (up to 4pm.)

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0mIa...lHiDNMKl5-sFaw

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

I‘m currently on Octopus Agile which bills you according to
half-hourly electricity rates. Yesterday these rates varied from a
peak of about 32p per kWhr between 4pm and 7pm to under a penny per
kWhr through most of the night.

How far in advance (if at all) do you know what the rate is going to
be?


From 4pm every day you can see what the rates will be for the next 24
hours. If we‘d had a smart switch for our immersion heater we would have
run that I think as the rate was zero for several hours last night.

Things get interesting when they occasionally go negative and you get
paid for using power during the night.

Isn't life a bit short to have to arrange your day around what power costs
at any particular time? ;-)


Well you obviously missed the important part of my message...

This tariff isnt going to suit everyone by any means but if you have a
significant amount of power consumption that you can time shift, you can
make big gains by doing so. In my case, we ran our dishwashers and charged
my car overnight for next to nothing.

Scheduling a car charge overnight is very easy. I can do it on my phone. On
a fixed rate tariff I would have been paying about 15p per kWhr. Last
night I was paying less than 1p per kWhr for about 40 kWhr of leccy.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Jeff Layman wrote:
On 15/11/2020 10:08, Tim+ wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

Im currently on Octopus Agile which bills you according to half-hourly
electricity rates. Yesterday these rates varied from a peak of about 32p
per kWhr between 4pm and 7pm to under a penny per kWhr through most of the
night.

How far in advance (if at all) do you know what the rate is going to be?


From 4pm every day you can see what the rates will be for the next 24
hours. If wed had a smart switch for our immersion heater we would have
run that I think as the rate was zero for several hours last night.

Things get interesting when they occasionally go negative and you get paid
for using power during the night.

I don't have a smart meter, so prior apologies if the comment below is
made in ignorance.

Are you saying the next 24hrs rates (or even the immediate rates) are
somehow displayed on the Smart Meter through something it accesses
remotely at Octopus Agile?

Nope. The current tariff isnt visible on he meter or in house display. I
dont think the software to update the displays is up to the job yet. It
is easy to see he hourly rate online or on a smart phone app so you always
have easy access to the current charging period.

Even if you didnt have access, the simple rule of €œavoid unnecessary power
use between 4pm and 7pm€� will help you to make significant savings,

I see on their webpage at it says "This
tariff relies on a smart meter to track the variable cost of your
energy" and "If youre not quite ready to make the leap to Agile but you
have a smart meter that were capturing half-hour data for...".

So the meter is permanently connected to Octopus Agile and they can
affect what it shows by changing the rates every half hour? Is that done
via your broadband connection or some other way?


The meter connects to its own network (this varies depending on where in
the country you are), not via my broadband. The meter is logging my usage
every half hour and uploading it to Octopus (no doubt through a number of
intermediate steps).

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

Isn't life a bit short to have to arrange your day around what power costs
at any particular time?

Assuming the data is available via an API (or can be scraped anyway) you
could have rules setup to charge the car to full, or bring the heating
on early, or set the hot water a few degrees higher when it's dirt cheap.


Yep. Octopus customers get free use of IFTT services I believe. A few smart
switchs will then activate stuff when the power prices drop enough.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

Isn't life a bit short to have to arrange your day around what power
costs at any particular time?

Assuming the data is available via an API (or can be scraped anyway) you
could have rules setup to charge the car to full, or bring the heating
on early, or set the hot water a few degrees higher when it's dirt cheap.

Obviously charging a car at night is the logical thing to do. But having
water which is too cold when you want hot just to save money?

Rather the same with heating. Unless you have a superb storage system.

--
*WHOSE CRUEL IDEA WAS IT FOR THE WORD 'LISP' TO HAVE 'S' IN IT?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Tim+ wrote:
Nope. The current tariff isnt visible on he meter or in house display. I
dont think the software to update the displays is up to the job yet. It
is easy to see he hourly rate online or on a smart phone app so you always
have easy access to the current charging period.

https://www.energy-stats.uk/octopus-agile/
is a handy website showing the current tariff.

Even if you didnt have access, the simple rule of €œavoid unnecessary power
use between 4pm and 7pm€� will help you to make significant savings,

Yep. A rough ballpark might be 30-40p in that period, and 5-10p the rest of
the time, falling lower if there's a surplus of wind or solar.

I'm not on that tariff, but have got into the mindset of 'run the
dishwasher after lunch when there's more solar' - it isn't hard.

This is of course where having a battery comes in - run your 4-7pm loads off
the battery and top it up with cheap power at other times.

The meter connects to its own network (this varies depending on where in
the country you are), not via my broadband. The meter is logging my usage
every half hour and uploading it to Octopus (no doubt through a number of
intermediate steps).

Do you know if the meter knows (displays) the current tariff, or it just
uploads the readings and the backend works them out?

(Some people use smart meters for running tight budgets and keeping track
their expenditure in real time - I suspect this is not the tariff for them)

Theo

Dave Plowman wrote:

having water which is too cold when you want hot just to save money?
If it's cheap, heat it after midnight, otherwise do it as normal 6am'ish?

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

Isn't life a bit short to have to arrange your day around what power
costs at any particular time?

Assuming the data is available via an API (or can be scraped anyway) you
could have rules setup to charge the car to full, or bring the heating
on early, or set the hot water a few degrees higher when it's dirt cheap.

Obviously charging a car at night is the logical thing to do. But having
water which is too cold when you want hot just to save money?

Why would you do that? It is of course a choice you could make but last
night it would have been cheaper to preheat my water by immersion that
doing it by gas.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Theo wrote:
Tim+ wrote:
Nope. The current tariff isnt visible on he meter or in house display. I
dont think the software to update the displays is up to the job yet. It
is easy to see he hourly rate online or on a smart phone app so you always
have easy access to the current charging period.

https://www.energy-stats.uk/octopus-agile/
is a handy website showing the current tariff.

Even if you didnt have access, the simple rule of €œavoid unnecessary power
use between 4pm and 7pm€� will help you to make significant savings,

Yep. A rough ballpark might be 30-40p in that period, and 5-10p the rest of
the time, falling lower if there's a surplus of wind or solar.

I'm not on that tariff, but have got into the mindset of 'run the
dishwasher after lunch when there's more solar' - it isn't hard.

This is of course where having a battery comes in - run your 4-7pm loads off
the battery and top it up with cheap power at other times.

The meter connects to its own network (this varies depending on where in
the country you are), not via my broadband. The meter is logging my usage
every half hour and uploading it to Octopus (no doubt through a number of
intermediate steps).

Do you know if the meter knows (displays) the current tariff, or it just
uploads the readings and the backend works them out?

I dont think so although Ive not bothered to look. No need to really.



(Some people use smart meters for running tight budgets and keeping track
their expenditure in real time - I suspect this is not the tariff for them)

Oh I think it probably is. You can get lots of data online about your
consumption I believe.

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

Tim+ wrote:

last night it would have been cheaper to preheat my water by
immersion that doing it by gas.

Though looking at the historic price info linked by Theo, being under
5p/unit is very much the exception.

In message
,
Tim+ writes
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

I€˜m currently on Octopus Agile which bills you according to
half-hourly electricity rates. Yesterday these rates varied from a
peak of about 32p per kWhr between 4pm and 7pm to under a penny per
kWhr through most of the night.

How far in advance (if at all) do you know what the rate is going to
be?


From 4pm every day you can see what the rates will be for the next 24
hours. If we€˜d had a smart switch for our immersion heater we would have
run that I think as the rate was zero for several hours last night.

Things get interesting when they occasionally go negative and you get
paid for using power during the night.

Isn't life a bit short to have to arrange your day around what power costs
at any particular time? ;-)


Well you obviously missed the important part of my message...

This tariff isnt going to suit everyone by any means but if you have a
significant amount of power consumption that you can time shift, you can
make big gains by doing so. In my case, we ran our dishwashers and charged
my car overnight for next to nothing.

Scheduling a car charge overnight is very easy. I can do it on my phone. On
a fixed rate tariff I would have been paying about 15p per kWhr. Last
night I was paying less than 1p per kWhr for about 40 kWhr of leccy.

Silly question as I don't have a smart meter but... if the tariff is set
low and significant numbers of users switch stuff on, won't this trigger
a tariff change?

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:

if the tariff is set
low and significant numbers of users switch stuff on, won't this trigger
a tariff change?

If they've set their tariff 24 hours ahead, I presume that's part of the
contract, and at the moment octopus customers are probably tiny enough
proportion of the market they won't have much effect on the grid.

Theo wrote:

I'm not on that tariff, but have got into the mindset of 'run the
dishwasher after lunch when there's more solar'

However, you don't want to run on a small load, as the cost of
the tablets could outweigh the power saving. ;-)

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
@ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

Tim Lamb wrote:
In message
,


Scheduling a car charge overnight is very easy. I can do it on my phone. On
a fixed rate tariff I would have been paying about 15p per kWhr. Last
night I was paying less than 1p per kWhr for about 40 kWhr of leccy.

Silly question as I don't have a smart meter but... if the tariff is set
low and significant numbers of users switch stuff on, won't this trigger
a tariff change?

Not a silly question. I dont think the tariff is changed dynamically like
this for domestic users. Octopus do the sums, look at the tea leaves,
check the bit of seaweed hanging from the nail and make their predictions
of demand on this and give you notice of the charges next 24 hrs.

As more and more people move to smart meters and EVs, Im sure off peak
charges will rise.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls

Andy Burns wrote:

Tim+ wrote:

last night it would have been cheaper to preheat my water by
immersion that doing it by gas.

Though looking at the historic price info linked by Theo, being under
5p/unit is very much the exception.


Oh I dunno. Between 2:30 and 3 tonight I get paid 0.22p per kWhr consumed!
Might have to plug the car in again. ;-)

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

After serious thinking Jeff Layman wrote :
So the meter is permanently connected to Octopus Agile and they can affect
what it shows by changing the rates every half hour? Is that done via your
broadband connection or some other way?

No, the half hour data is unloaded to the supplier only once per day,
as a batch via the mobile network. So it lags by upto 24 hours, before
the supplier gets the data.

Well it should not matter from the bill point of view though, since the
billing is done on the readings and the readings are on the meter with the
timer deciding when off peak is, so its in their interests to keep them
working as they should. I do not see any replaceable batteries. I had to
change the rechargeable in the immersion heater timer some years back. A
friend did this as they had not designed it to be user changeable, you were
I imagine supposed to bin the switch and buy a new one. Of course the
physical size of the new one did not fit the holes in the pcb, but we would
not let that stand in the way of changing it!
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Jack Harry Teesdale" wrote in message
...
On 15/11/2020 10:47, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
I have economy 7, and in effect this is how one can afford to use storage
heaters and yes although I can over ride the immersion heater any time
its
mostly on in the early hours. The heaters do not have over rides though,
since their whole supply ring is a switched on in the meter itself.
Brian


It's not uncommom for the electro/mechanical E7 timeswitches to be out of
sync with the real time of day after power outages.

on 15/11/2020, Tim+ supposed :
Oh I think it probably is. You can get lots of data online about your
consumption I believe.

One company I was with, with a working Smart Meter if you selected the
30 minute reporting, allowed you to check a website the following day
to see what you had consumed and when - the previous day.

The meters bulk upload the previous 24 hours consumption data, once per
24 hours.

On 15/11/2020 10:43, Tim Streater wrote:
On 15 Nov 2020 at 10:08:43 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

Im currently on Octopus Agile which bills you according to half-hourly
electricity rates. Yesterday these rates varied from a peak of about 32p
per kWhr between 4pm and 7pm to under a penny per kWhr through most of the
night.

How far in advance (if at all) do you know what the rate is going to be?

From 4pm every day you can see what the rates will be for the next 24
hours. If wed had a smart switch for our immersion heater we would have
run that I think as the rate was zero for several hours last night.

Things get interesting when they occasionally go negative and you get paid
for using power during the night.

So we could heat the HW water here on the immersion overnight and use no oil
at all for 6 months. Mind you, usage is minimal anyway, CH is the main usage.


And you would need a very-well insulated HW tank to maintain all that
water temperature. Now a thermal store, heated by electric, when the
'grid' is paying you to use the power may be an interesting costing
exercise.

AFAIK only John Rumm has one of these.

On 15/11/2020 11:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Isn't life a bit short to have to arrange your day around what power costs
at any particular time? ;-)


I'm sure that some people could arrange to shift some of their energy
usage but there is a good reason why there are periods of peak demand on
the grid and its unlikely for most people that their habits, work
patterns or leisure activities will change significantly.

It's much like the energy monitor displays which when first installed
may make people realise when excessive energy consumption is taking
place but after the novelty has worn off how many people then give them
a second glance or take notice of the information being given.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Sun, 15 Nov 2020 11:30:55 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

snip

Isn't life a bit short to have to arrange your day around what power costs
at any particular time? ;-)

There were times when some of us delayed making a casual phone call
till after 6pm, just because it was cheaper and 30 years ago I tried
to charge my EV overnight (on E7), so I think this has been going on
for a while.

The issue for me is that saving money by regularly switching tariffs
(becoming a 'rate tart') could be fine *if* the systems in place at
the time can deal with such easily and the returns are worthy of any
input effort involved.

It's also the law of diminishing returns, looking at the savings you
can make by (regularly potentially) switching compared with any other
savings you could make in your life that could be much greater. Like,
it's possible I could save £150 off my energy bill which is the same I
pay for my secure storage per month? Or I could dump my land line and
go mobile only (BB over cable), saving £240 pa?

Or I could move to a more energy efficient house or make this one
smaller by putting internal insulation on all the external walls ...
etc etc.

Or as you say, I just get on with my life, keeping costs down on the
things that are easy to do, like doing our own vehicle maintenance.
;-)

That said, *if* there was a system that automatically switched energy
suppliers and was *guaranteed* not to cost us a single penny ever and
didn't involve any extra work on my part (like having to read the
meters every month) and there was *no* risk of any administrative
errors ... I can't see why *everyone* wouldn't be on it?

But is there no chance that if that was available, it would put many
suppliers (or 'middle men') out of business ( going back to the old
single supplier days) as it's obvious that the vast majority would end
up on whoever was the cheapest, and the others ending up with no
customers?

Like Black Monday, a supplier would only have to reduce their prices
to something that caused most to auto-switch and then when all the
others have gone to the wall, put their prices back up. I'm not sure I
want to be party to such nonsense?

All that aside, I'd still like to monitor and log our energy (and
water) usage, just for the S&G's of it all.

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Isn't life a bit short to have to arrange your day around what power
costs at any particular time? ;-)

There were times when some of us delayed making a casual phone call
till after 6pm, just because it was cheaper and 30 years ago I tried
to charge my EV overnight (on E7), so I think this has been going on
for a while.

But would you move meal times to get the benefit of cheaper energy? Put
off having a cup of tea because electricity is cheaper later on?

The issue for me is that saving money by regularly switching tariffs
(becoming a 'rate tart') could be fine *if* the systems in place at
the time can deal with such easily and the returns are worthy of any
input effort involved.

Why I use Flipper. Does everything for me. And tells me the savings.

Unless you have independent access to all the possible data yourself,
you're paying a site that gives you that one way or another. At least with
Flipper you know what it is costing. Unless they are dishonest.

--
*Why doesn't glue stick to the inside of the bottle?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18/11/2020 10:17, T i m wrote:

The issue for me is that saving money by regularly switching tariffs
(becoming a 'rate tart') could be fine *if* the systems in place at
the time can deal with such easily and the returns are worthy of any
input effort involved.

That said, *if* there was a system that automatically switched energy
suppliers and was *guaranteed* not to cost us a single penny ever and
didn't involve any extra work on my part (like having to read the
meters every month) and there was *no* risk of any administrative
errors ... I can't see why *everyone* wouldn't be on it?

You are completely forgetting, perhaps for good reason, about the
people, of which there are many, who have no idea of who their energy
supplier is, or how much energy they use, or what the price is, and who
can't find their mandatory Annual Statement with all this data on.

But is there no chance that if that was available, it would put many
suppliers (or 'middle men') out of business ( going back to the old
single supplier days) as it's obvious that the vast majority would end
up on whoever was the cheapest, and the others ending up with no
customers?

Many people have no idea of who their energy supplier is, or who are
seduced into the idea of 'safety' by firms who deliberately trade with
the word 'British' in their trading name. It is these people, stuck in
the past or who are afraid of imagined hobgoblins, who will stop your
scenario from happening. This does of course mean that the rest of us
can make savings by being subsidised by such people.

Like Black Monday, a supplier would only have to reduce their prices
to something that caused most to auto-switch and then when all the
others have gone to the wall, put their prices back up. I'm not sure I
want to be party to such nonsense?

At the present time you are party to a different, dinosaur-like nonsense.

--
Spike

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 10:57:54 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Isn't life a bit short to have to arrange your day around what power
costs at any particular time? ;-)

There were times when some of us delayed making a casual phone call
till after 6pm, just because it was cheaper and 30 years ago I tried
to charge my EV overnight (on E7), so I think this has been going on
for a while.

But would you move meal times to get the benefit of cheaper energy? Put
off having a cup of tea because electricity is cheaper later on?

Not unless our energy supply got very desperate! ;-)

The issue for me is that saving money by regularly switching tariffs
(becoming a 'rate tart') could be fine *if* the systems in place at
the time can deal with such easily and the returns are worthy of any
input effort involved.

Why I use Flipper. Does everything for me. And tells me the savings.

Yeah, I'm tempted between that and similar services.

Unless you have independent access to all the possible data yourself,
you're paying a site that gives you that one way or another. At least with
Flipper you know what it is costing. Unless they are dishonest.

True.

Cheers, T i m

alan_m wrote:
On 15/11/2020 11:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Isn't life a bit short to have to arrange your day around what power costs
at any particular time? ;-)


I'm sure that some people could arrange to shift some of their energy
usage but there is a good reason why there are periods of peak demand on
the grid and its unlikely for most people that their habits, work
patterns or leisure activities will change significantly.


The €œcarrot and stick€� approach with Octopus Agile is quite a strong
incentive to alter ones usage. ;-)

Without suitable incentives its not surprising that people cant be
bothered to change. If a company makes it worthwhile though...

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Tim+ wrote:

The “carrot and stick” approach with Octopus Agile is quite a strong
incentive to alter ones usage. ;-)

Without suitable incentives it’s not surprising that people can’t be
bothered to change. If a company makes it worthwhile though...

Isn't an important part of the picture that right now there isn't
simple and cost-effective off-the-shelf technology available to
permit appliances and other kit to be controlled for greatest
economy.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
@ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

In article ,
Chris J Dixon wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

The “carrot and stick” approach with Octopus Agile is quite a strong
incentive to alter ones usage. ;-)

Without suitable incentives it’s not surprising that people can’t be
bothered to change. If a company makes it worthwhile though...

Isn't an important part of the picture that right now there isn't
simple and cost-effective off-the-shelf technology available to
permit appliances and other kit to be controlled for greatest
economy.

Don't most have an on/off switch? ;-)

I do laugh at those ads for someone wandering round their house switching
lights off and on with a mobile phone. ;-)

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.