On 15/11/2020 11:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

I€˜m currently on Octopus Agile which bills you according to
half-hourly electricity rates. Yesterday these rates varied from a
peak of about 32p per kWhr between 4pm and 7pm to under a penny per
kWhr through most of the night.

How far in advance (if at all) do you know what the rate is going to
be?


From 4pm every day you can see what the rates will be for the next 24
hours. If we€˜d had a smart switch for our immersion heater we would have
run that I think as the rate was zero for several hours last night.

Things get interesting when they occasionally go negative and you get
paid for using power during the night.

Isn't life a bit short to have to arrange your day around what power costs
at any particular time? ;-)

So you go hungry just to save money? Might as well become nocturnal to
benefit from off-peak electricity.

--
Max Demian

Chris J Dixon wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

The “carrot and stick” approach with Octopus Agile is quite a strong
incentive to alter ones usage. ;-)

Without suitable incentives itÂ’s not surprising that people canÂ’t be
bothered to change. If a company makes it worthwhile though...

Isn't an important part of the picture that right now there isn't
simple and cost-effective off-the-shelf technology available to
permit appliances and other kit to be controlled for greatest
economy.

Chris

But there is.

https://ifttt.com

You can buy switches that will turn appliances on and off based on you
current electricity tariff.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Max Demian wrote:
On 15/11/2020 11:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

I€˜m currently on Octopus Agile which bills you according to
half-hourly electricity rates. Yesterday these rates varied from a
peak of about 32p per kWhr between 4pm and 7pm to under a penny per
kWhr through most of the night.

How far in advance (if at all) do you know what the rate is going to
be?


From 4pm every day you can see what the rates will be for the next 24
hours. If we€˜d had a smart switch for our immersion heater we would have
run that I think as the rate was zero for several hours last night.

Things get interesting when they occasionally go negative and you get
paid for using power during the night.

Isn't life a bit short to have to arrange your day around what power costs
at any particular time? ;-)

So you go hungry just to save money?

Eh? Why would you go that far unless you were really desperate?

We still have a gas hob and havent forgotten how to use it.

Might as well become nocturnal to
benefit from off-peak electricity.


If thats what floats your boat, go for it but theres no need to go to
extremes for most folk to make significant savings.

As Ive said before, its not a tariff that would suit everyone but for
those who have the ability (and the imagination) to be flexible with their
electricity consumption, the Octopus Agile tariff has a lot going for it,
especially if youre an EV owner.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

In article
,
Tim+ writes
Max Demian wrote:
On 15/11/2020 11:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

I€˜m currently on Octopus Agile which bills you according to
half-hourly electricity rates. Yesterday these rates varied from a
peak of about 32p per kWhr between 4pm and 7pm to under a penny per
kWhr through most of the night.

How far in advance (if at all) do you know what the rate is going to
be?


From 4pm every day you can see what the rates will be for the next 24
hours. If we€˜d had a smart switch for our immersion heater we would have
run that I think as the rate was zero for several hours last night.

Things get interesting when they occasionally go negative and you get
paid for using power during the night.

Isn't life a bit short to have to arrange your day around what power costs
at any particular time? ;-)

So you go hungry just to save money?

Eh? Why would you go that far unless you were really desperate?

We still have a gas hob and havent forgotten how to use it.

Might as well become nocturnal to
benefit from off-peak electricity.


If thats what floats your boat, go for it but theres no need to go to
extremes for most folk to make significant savings.

As Ive said before, its not a tariff that would suit everyone but for
those who have the ability (and the imagination) to be flexible with their
electricity consumption, the Octopus Agile tariff has a lot going for it,
especially if youre an EV owner.

Tim

My alarm bells start ringing whenever I see the word "savings".
Calculation of promised savings is defined by Ofgem and relate to the
amount you would pay if you stayed on your current supplier's standard
variable contract at the end of your current deal. Suppliers and
switching sites must abide by this rule. Claimed savings therefore are
not realistically achievable but purely as a comparator between one
offer and another.
--
bert

bert wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ writes
Max Demian wrote:
On 15/11/2020 11:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

I€˜m currently on Octopus Agile which bills you according to
half-hourly electricity rates. Yesterday these rates varied from a
peak of about 32p per kWhr between 4pm and 7pm to under a penny per
kWhr through most of the night.

How far in advance (if at all) do you know what the rate is going to
be?


From 4pm every day you can see what the rates will be for the next 24
hours. If we€˜d had a smart switch for our immersion heater we would have
run that I think as the rate was zero for several hours last night.

Things get interesting when they occasionally go negative and you get
paid for using power during the night.

Isn't life a bit short to have to arrange your day around what power costs
at any particular time? ;-)

So you go hungry just to save money?

Eh? Why would you go that far unless you were really desperate?

We still have a gas hob and havent forgotten how to use it.

Might as well become nocturnal to
benefit from off-peak electricity.


If thats what floats your boat, go for it but theres no need to go to
extremes for most folk to make significant savings.

As Ive said before, its not a tariff that would suit everyone but for
those who have the ability (and the imagination) to be flexible with their
electricity consumption, the Octopus Agile tariff has a lot going for it,
especially if youre an EV owner.

Tim

My alarm bells start ringing whenever I see the word "savings".
Calculation of promised savings is defined by Ofgem and relate to the
amount you would pay if you stayed on your current supplier's standard
variable contract at the end of your current deal. Suppliers and
switching sites must abide by this rule. Claimed savings therefore are
not realistically achievable but purely as a comparator between one
offer and another.

I dont really care whether you believe in my savings or not, but if you
understand how the tariff works and have had a look at the half hourly
rates, you can easily see how large saving can be made if you have some
sizeable loads that you can time shift.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 20 Nov 2020 14:18:58 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

snip

I don’t really care whether you believe in my savings or not,

Don't forget it's Burk' you are talking to here, he very much has his
own / special view on most things. ;-(

but if you
understand how the tariff works

Which he won't ...

and have had a look at the half hourly
rates,

Which he won't ...

you can easily see

He couldn't ...

how large saving can be made if you have some
sizeable loads that you can time shift.

Quite, and why I made use of E7 for charging my electric car 30+ years
ago. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
bert wrote:
My alarm bells start ringing whenever I see the word "savings".
Calculation of promised savings is defined by Ofgem and relate to the
amount you would pay if you stayed on your current supplier's standard
variable contract at the end of your current deal. Suppliers and
switching sites must abide by this rule. Claimed savings therefore are
not realistically achievable but purely as a comparator between one
offer and another.

Another good reason to use Flipper. Not in their interest to go to the
effort of changing your suppliers if savings ain't real.

--
*I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

bert wrote:
My alarm bells start ringing whenever I see the word "savings".
Calculation of promised savings is defined by Ofgem and relate to the
amount you would pay if you stayed on your current supplier's standard
variable contract at the end of your current deal. Suppliers and
switching sites must abide by this rule. Claimed savings therefore are
not realistically achievable but purely as a comparator between one
offer and another.

That makes sense to me, because that's where you'd end up if you did
nothing. Your deal would end and you'd land on your supplier's variable
tariff. They should calculate based on the time you have left - eg you have
4 months of a fixed tariff plus 8 months of variable tariff if you did
nothing for a year, or 12 months of a new fixed tariff if you signed up
today. They do offer you new deals at your current supplier on the same
basis - ie the 'saving' isn't just for switching.

The 'saving' is thus based on your potential future trajectories, not what
happened over the last year. It isn't useful to compare against last year
because the wholesale price of energy when you signed up then is likely to
be different to now.

(similarly the saving can't account for changes in variable tariffs, which
would require predicting the future market)

Theo

On 18/11/2020 14:29, Tim+ wrote:


I'm sure that some people could arrange to shift some of their energy
usage but there is a good reason why there are periods of peak demand on
the grid and its unlikely for most people that their habits, work
patterns or leisure activities will change significantly.


The €œcarrot and stick€� approach with Octopus Agile is quite a strong
incentive to alter ones usage. ;-)

Without suitable incentives its not surprising that people cant be
bothered to change. If a company makes it worthwhile though...


I assume that with this company offering the incentives it is at the top
of your list for changing energy suppliers.

This type of scheme only works if a minority of energy users adopt it.
As soon as the take-up gets to meaningful numbers there will not be the
incentive of cheaper off-peak energy because there will not be an off peak.

With conventional electrical energy generation there may have been a
benefit from a constant 24hour demand but these days we are entering the
green revolution realms of all or nothing (without relying on gas, coal
or nuclear) so perhaps the new norm is no electricity supply when the
wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 18/11/2020 11:16, Spike wrote:

At the present time you are party to a different, dinosaur-like nonsense.


Tim seems to be one of those people who harp back to the good old days
where everything was rosy and the big monopoly companies didn't rip us
off and provided excellence customer service. All things had a
recommended retail price and every retailer stuck to it. He prefers to
stick to these companies and ideas preferring the status quo to change
without cast iron guarantees, but forgetting there is always change and
no guarantees with existing establishments.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 20/11/2020 13:48, bert wrote:

My alarm bells start ringing whenever I see the word "savings".
Calculation of promised savings is defined by Ofgem and relate to the
amount you would pay if you stayed on your current supplier's standard
variable contract at the end of your current deal. Suppliers and
switching sites must abide by this rule. Claimed savings therefore are
not realistically achievable but purely as a comparator between one
offer and another.

+1
But the saving are real for some on this group who seem to claim to be
on standard variable tariffs.

The inflated figures for switching year after year are unrealistic but
the averts are mainly aimed at people who have never bothered to switch
or perhaps those (include some people I know) who don't realise that
these lower priced contracts end after a fixed time and the if nothing
is done the tariff changes to something much more costly.

My local council promotes energy switching with one of the collective
deals with a single energy company. In a letterbox leaflet drop for one
of these schemes a local councillor endorses the scheme by saying that
after years of paying for higher priced energy he joined the council
scheme and saved £100s. My reaction to reading that was if he is
incapable of managing his own savings for years what the F**k was he
doing on a council managing our taxes.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 20/11/2020 14:38, T i m wrote:

Quite, and why I made use of E7 for charging my electric car 30+ years
ago. ;-)

You had milk float?


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 21/11/2020 12:36, Theo wrote:

That makes sense to me, because that's where you'd end up if you did
nothing. Your deal would end and you'd land on your supplier's variable
tariff. They should calculate based on the time you have left - eg you have
4 months of a fixed tariff plus 8 months of variable tariff if you did
nothing for a year, or 12 months of a new fixed tariff if you signed up
today. They do offer you new deals at your current supplier on the same
basis - ie the 'saving' isn't just for switching.

It can be miss-used by some suppliers to get you to switch to a more
expensive tariff early.

You are on a fixed priced contact with 6 months to run and the supplier
has a new more expensive fixed priced contract they will use the
regulator's approved calculation to indicate that the more expensive
tariff gives you a saving - which is probably untrue unless prices rise
by 15%+ within the time period of the original 12 month contract.

Also be wary of early changing one BG contract with another BG contract
- they have habit of applying the early change penalty fee BUT it will
not appear as an item on your bill but will appear on your bank
statement as a separate charge. Other suppliers will state there is no
charge for changing contracts if staying with the same company. Some
suppliers have a zero fee for ending the contract early.

Note1: no exit fees can be applied if changing within a 49 day window at
the end (before the end) of a contract when switching to another company.

Note2: There is a cooling off period of two weeks before a change will
be officially processed so select your change 3+ weeks before your
existing contract is due to end.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 13:27:34 +0000, alan_m
wrote:

snip

Tim seems to be one of those people who harp back to the good old days
where everything was rosy and the big monopoly companies didn't rip us
off and provided excellence customer service.

What, is that an impossible ask then these days?

All things had a
recommended retail price and every retailer stuck to it.

I'm pretty sure that hasn't been the case ever.

He prefers to
stick to these companies and ideas preferring the status quo to change
without cast iron guarantees,

Not 'cast iron', but just some reasonably good odds that the outcome
is worth any risk.

but forgetting there is always change

Of course, like there is 'Jumping out of the frying pan, into the
fire'. I'm guessing that if everything went smoothly for everyone
there would be the need for an ombudsman, Watchdog, bailiffs or
solicitors?

and
no guarantees with existing establishments.

But they are a 'known', even if only 'right now' and I have more
leverage with what I may have to do re a change than the changes I may
have to do when swapping supplier.

'Fools rush in'?

But hey, thanks very much for the effort you have put into trying to
save us a tiny percentage of our yearly outgoings.

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 13:42:10 +0000, alan_m
wrote:

On 20/11/2020 14:38, T i m wrote:

Quite, and why I made use of E7 for charging my electric car 30+ years
ago. ;-)

You had milk float?

Well, we did (between a mate and I) but I wasn't talking about that, I
was talking about my Enfield 8000 'Moke' (that I've still got).

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 13:40:42 +0000, alan_m
wrote:

On 20/11/2020 13:48, bert wrote:

My alarm bells start ringing whenever I see the word "savings".
Calculation of promised savings is defined by Ofgem and relate to the
amount you would pay if you stayed on your current supplier's standard
variable contract at the end of your current deal. Suppliers and
switching sites must abide by this rule. Claimed savings therefore are
not realistically achievable but purely as a comparator between one
offer and another.

+1
But the saving are real for some on this group who seem to claim to be
on standard variable tariffs.

What about those who *are* on standard variable tariffs?

The inflated figures for switching year after year are unrealistic but
the averts are mainly aimed at people who have never bothered to switch
or perhaps those (include some people I know) who don't realise that
these lower priced contracts end after a fixed time and the if nothing
is done the tariff changes to something much more costly.

(He's not talking about me then).

My local council promotes energy switching with one of the collective
deals with a single energy company.

It's what my BIL successfully did. He canvassed many of the people
along his road asking 'If they were willing to switch to another
supplier, would you if we could get the price down". Some couldn't
(without saving canceling penalties), some CBA because they weren't on
their uppers some didn't trust any such deal and others didn't
understand.

I think he did present various suppliers the idea of being able to
bring X new users (so those not already with the various suppliers)
and I believe he got a deal and he and some of those interested,
willing and able did indeed switch. And then of course the deal ran
out and few CBA to go though it all again.

The point is, a net saving of a small overall amount (of their overall
outgoings) really isn't worth the sort of effort / risk that is
involved for many people.

Any maybe you should be happy that's the case, as the people paying
the most are allowing the others to get the discount. If we all jumped
on that bandwagon, the general prices would be higher.

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 13:05:54 +0000, alan_m
wrote:

snip

With conventional electrical energy generation there may have been a
benefit from a constant 24hour demand but these days we are entering the
green revolution realms of all or nothing (without relying on gas, coal
or nuclear) so perhaps the new norm is no electricity supply when the
wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.

Yup ... and so if you want electricity when the grid isn't supplying
any you will need your own Powerwall [1] (or draw power from your own
electric car).

Cheers, T i m

[1] As a cousin has on the IOW.