Anyone had any experience of this?

Bill

On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 15:34:25 +0000
williamwright wrote:

Anyone had any experience of this?

Bill

No, but this might be helpful:

https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/20...rce-heat-pumps

--
Davey.

On Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 4:06:02 PM UTC, Davey wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 15:34:25 +0000
williamwright wrote:

Anyone had any experience of this?

Bill
No, but this might be helpful:

https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/20...rce-heat-pumps

--
Davey.
As was said above, no but this might be helpful
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/56393.pdf
It is a question I have too, but it has been a long day.
I am an air source sceptic, but willing to be proved wrong

On 11/11/2020 16:05, Davey wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 15:34:25 +0000
williamwright wrote:

Anyone had any experience of this?

Bill

No, but this might be helpful:

https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/20...rce-heat-pumps

Thank you.

bill

On 11/11/2020 17:22, misterroy wrote:
On Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 4:06:02 PM UTC, Davey wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 15:34:25 +0000
williamwright wrote:

Anyone had any experience of this?

Bill
No, but this might be helpful:

https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/20...rce-heat-pumps

--
Davey.
As was said above, no but this might be helpful
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/56393.pdf
It is a question I have too, but it has been a long day.
I am an air source sceptic, but willing to be proved wrong

Thank you.

Bill

williamwright wrote:
Anyone had any experience of this?

Currently planning an ASHP to replace an oil boiler, done a lot of research.
What did you want to know?

Theo

On 11/11/2020 16:05, Davey wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 15:34:25 +0000
williamwright wrote:

Anyone had any experience of this?

Bill

No, but this might be helpful:

https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/20...rce-heat-pumps

Having just had a read through that, I am rather suspicious of some of
the claims.


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 12/11/2020 12:16, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/11/2020 16:05, Davey wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 15:34:25 +0000
williamwright wrote:

Anyone had any experience of this?

Bill

No, but this might be helpful:

https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/20...rce-heat-pumps


Having just had a read through that, I am rather suspicious of some of
the claims.



+1
Do some of the claims about cost include an allowance for subsidies?

I wonder if some of the claims are for areas of the world with a
different climate and have just been "read across" to sell the products
in the UK.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 12/11/2020 14:36, alan_m wrote:
On 12/11/2020 12:16, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/11/2020 16:05, Davey wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 15:34:25 +0000
williamwright wrote:

Anyone had any experience of this?

Bill

No, but this might be helpful:

https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/blog/20...rce-heat-pumps


Having just had a read through that, I am rather suspicious of some of
the claims.



+1
Do some of the claims about cost include an allowance for subsidies?


Yup, not clear...

Also no allowance for the capital costs considered.

The prices for energy they quoted also look unrealistic (they did have
the ratio of lekky to gas price about right - but numbers that looked
like they were a decade old - so that would have made the comparisons
come out much "closer" than in reality).

They were also keen to compare against coal fired and resistive electric
heating, but seemed to leave out comparisons to gas / oil.

(I would be surprised if there are that many places with coal fired CH
in the UK!)

I wonder if some of the claims are for areas of the world with a
different climate and have just been "read across" to sell the products
in the UK.

Even the assumption that "renewable" energy is low carbon is a bit of a
stretch for the UK, where the best load factor for wind is under 50%,
and under 25% for solar in the summer (4% in the winter!), so more the
half the time the energy shortfall is being made up by fossil
alternatives generally.




--
Cheers,

John.

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John Rumm wrote:
The prices for energy they quoted also look unrealistic (they did have
the ratio of lekky to gas price about right - but numbers that looked
like they were a decade old - so that would have made the comparisons
come out much "closer" than in reality).

There's lots of stuff about heat pumps around that's about a decade old
(including the report posted in this thread) - things have moved on, so they
should be read with large pinches of salt.

They were also keen to compare against coal fired and resistive electric
heating, but seemed to leave out comparisons to gas / oil.

(I would be surprised if there are that many places with coal fired CH
in the UK!)

Coal fires yes (listed old houses etc), but not centrally heated...

Even the assumption that "renewable" energy is low carbon is a bit of a
stretch for the UK, where the best load factor for wind is under 50%,
and under 25% for solar in the summer (4% in the winter!), so more the
half the time the energy shortfall is being made up by fossil
alternatives generally.

I did the numbers and a heat pump running from electricity generated by a
CCGT still works out less CO2 per kwh heat than burning oil. It was a bit
more than burning gas directly, although that depends somewhat on your COP.

Theo

On Wednesday, 11 November 2020 15:34:30 UTC, williamwright wrote:
Anyone had any experience of this?


A couple of houses round here have it.
Well insulated and underfloor heating.
Supplementary immersion heater for hot water.

Some have supplementary resistance heating for the house.
A lot depends on what refrigerant gas they use.

It's all that will be available in the future. Be a trend setter!!

I have a wood fired stove.

On 12/11/2020 16:47, harry wrote:


It's all that will be available in the future. Be a trend setter!!


That doesn't mean that it is the best heating system for an existing
house nor does it mean that is the cheapest to run.

As most of the sites suggest it's ideal for underfloor heating when the
house is much better insulated than the vast majorities of properties.
But, with a better than average insulated property other forms of of
heating may/will be cheaper (ignoring subsidies) than air sourced heat
pumps.

The policy aim is for a reduction in CO2 not necessarily a reduction in
the cost of heating your home.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 12/11/2020 16:47, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 11 November 2020 15:34:30 UTC, williamwright wrote:
Anyone had any experience of this?

A couple of houses round here have it.
Well insulated and underfloor heating.
Supplementary immersion heater for hot water.

Some have supplementary resistance heating for the house.
A lot depends on what refrigerant gas they use.

Can't there be a primary heat pump to heat a tank of water, and a
secondary one to take the heat from the tank and ramp it up to a high
enough temperature for standard radiators and hot water for baths &c.?

--
Max Demian

On Thursday, November 12, 2020 at 5:01:03 PM UTC, alan_m wrote:
On 12/11/2020 16:47, harry wrote:


It's all that will be available in the future. Be a trend setter!!
That doesn't mean that it is the best heating system for an existing
house nor does it mean that is the cheapest to run.

As most of the sites suggest it's ideal for underfloor heating when the
house is much better insulated than the vast majorities of properties.
But, with a better than average insulated property other forms of of
heating may/will be cheaper (ignoring subsidies) than air sourced heat
pumps.

The policy aim is for a reduction in CO2 not necessarily a reduction in
the cost of heating your home.
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
Theo, have you found an up to date comparison between storage heaters and ASHP?
The cost of installing and running and maintenance would need to be in it.
I have a good friend who was looking at buying a 10K ASHP, which has a life expectancy of 10 years. This was his words. Newish build, underfloor heating. (First ASHP was off ebay)

On 12/11/2020 17:48, misterroy wrote:

Theo, have you found an up to date comparison between storage heaters and ASHP?

Why would anyone install storage heaters - the worst of all worlds?

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Thursday, November 12, 2020 at 5:52:14 PM UTC, alan_m wrote:
On 12/11/2020 17:48, misterroy wrote:

Theo, have you found an up to date comparison between storage heaters and ASHP?
Why would anyone install storage heaters - the worst of all worlds?
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
My reasoning was use a green energy supplier so that there was no CO2, so it is a level playing field.
My boiler needs replacing soon and I briefly looked a GSHP, I have the land, but it did not look a goer.

On 11/11/2020 15:34, williamwright wrote:
Anyone had any experience of this?

Bill
Just a warning , there was some discussion here several months ago on
AirSource specs .It did appear that the US and Europe have very
different definitions for 1 of the key efficiency parameters.

On 12/11/2020 17:58, misterroy wrote:
On Thursday, November 12, 2020 at 5:52:14 PM UTC, alan_m wrote:
On 12/11/2020 17:48, misterroy wrote:

Theo, have you found an up to date comparison between storage heaters and ASHP?
Why would anyone install storage heaters - the worst of all worlds?
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
My reasoning was use a green energy supplier so that there was no CO2, so it is a level playing field.
My boiler needs replacing soon and I briefly looked a GSHP, I have the land, but it did not look a goer.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 12/11/2020 17:52, alan_m wrote:
On 12/11/2020 17:48, misterroy wrote:

Theo, have you found an up to date comparison between storage heaters
and ASHP?

Why would anyone install storage heaters - the worst of all worlds?

Indeed. Low capital cost is all they offer. ASHP is half the running
cost or less, but you really need UFH to use the low temperatures. And
mega insulation to allow for low heat output.

--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

On 12/11/2020 17:58, misterroy wrote:

My reasoning was use a green energy supplier so that there was no CO2,

Bless!

so it is a level playing field.
My boiler needs replacing soon and I briefly looked a GSHP, I have the land, but it did not look a goer.

GSHP very good with UFH and well insulated house. Otherwise stick to
fossil, it will be less CO2 anyway. Not that that is in nay way relevant
to anything


--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

On 12/11/2020 11:01, Theo wrote:
williamwright wrote:
Anyone had any experience of this?

Currently planning an ASHP to replace an oil boiler, done a lot of research.
What did you want to know?

Theo

Snags!

Bill

On Thursday, November 12, 2020 at 6:24:06 PM UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/11/2020 17:52, alan_m wrote:
On 12/11/2020 17:48, misterroy wrote:

Theo, have you found an up to date comparison between storage heaters
and ASHP?

Why would anyone install storage heaters - the worst of all worlds?

Indeed. Low capital cost is all they offer. ASHP is half the running
cost or less, but you really need UFH to use the low temperatures. And
mega insulation to allow for low heat output.

--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.
Yes Storage heaters are cheap to install, and expensive to run. ASHP can be 10K to buy the unit. (https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/11412500930...kcid=28&chn=ps)
That one is 11kw, from a wee google a typical oil boiler for a three bedroom house is 30kw.
If that one has a 10 year life, like the one my mate was going to buy, that is £1k per year for the machine, then the electricity is above that. I only just switched my heating back on, it is about 8 degrees during the day. The air is pretty wet too. I have not seen figures for using ASHPs in ****ty conditions. If you are paying for the system and the electricity, it may be a closer run thing between ASHP and storage heaters.

On 12/11/2020 18:24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/11/2020 17:52, alan_m wrote:
On 12/11/2020 17:48, misterroy wrote:

Theo, have you found an up to date comparison between storage heaters
and ASHP?

Why would anyone install storage heaters - the worst of all worlds?

Indeed. Low capital cost is all they offer. ASHP is half the running
cost or less, but you really need UFH to use the low temperatures. And
mega insulation to allow for low heat output.

A traditional heat pump AC system would have lower capital costs and do
away with the UFH requirement.

I can see the attraction for small scale use when resistive electric is
the only other viable option.



--
Cheers,

John.

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williamwright wrote:
On 12/11/2020 11:01, Theo wrote:
williamwright wrote:
Anyone had any experience of this?

Currently planning an ASHP to replace an oil boiler, done a lot of
research. What did you want to know?

Theo

Snags!

Well, the first thing to say is that it needs a mindset change:
combustion-based heating is about making a small amount of very hot stuff
and then spreading that heat around. Heat pumps generate larger volumes of
cooler stuff. This means that some things that make sense for combustion
(eg microbore piping) don't for heat pumps.

Next up are a category of things which could be described as 'installer
error'. Unlike combustion, heat pumps have a smaller range of power outputs
they're happy with.

A lower heat output means a slower temperature ramp up - the unit runs for
longer, but that's mitigated by having insulation to keep the heat in the
house. Instead of turning on the heat for a quick burst when you get home,
you leave it ticking along when you're out and you only pay costs for losses
through the insulation. It's less good to leave windows open.

If you try and demand too much heat out of them, many have a backup
resistive heater. This is designed for occasional days in the depths of
winter when efficiency falls, but an undersized heat pump may rely on the
resistive heater too much - causing high bills. Our installer puts this on
a manual control, so you're at least aware of what's going on (and we'd just
burn wood on those days anyway). A number of horror stories have been
people moving into newbuilds with heat pumps installed and no guidance on
how to control the system (see also that mindset change). Some of those
newbuilds had funky ventilation systems that were installed wrongly,
trashing their insulation.

If the heat pump is oversized, it still runs but less efficiently, affecting
your COP.

As far as a retrofit goes, that cooler water means you may need a radiator
upgrade if you don't have UFH.

Therefore a key part of installation is the heat demand and loss
calculations, which require a more skilled installer than just sticking a
finger in the air and picking a size of boiler.

COP is something you don't really find out until you have the system
installed. I've heard various sources but think 2-3 is a sensible range.

Noise: the fans hum, but a lot less than our oil boiler firing

Servicing: there's fewer people who know what they're doing compared with
gas plumbers. This is improving. In other countries everyone has an
airconditioner, so there's nothing fundamentally new here.

Electricity v oil/gas prices: this is really hard to judge. Oil is cheap at
the moment, but I suspect that isn't going to last. With a solar+battery
setup you may be able to power some of the heatpump load in spring/autumn
(and hot water in summer too).


10 years ago they were very bleeding edge. Nowadays most of the kinks have
been worked out. They aren't mainstream, but they're now fairly mature.

Theo

On 13/11/2020 13:42, Theo wrote:
As far as a retrofit goes, that cooler water means you may need a radiator
upgrade if you don't have UFH.

nearby neighbour living in a 1976 4 bed detached house had
this installed. (Air to Water).

They had to replace all 8 rads with triple-panel finned rads at
£300 per rad (that was over 12+ years ago).

They stopped using their Potterton Supreme gas boiler at the
same time but then found it was impossible to get anyone to
'service' their central heating system because no-one knew
what they were supposed to do.

I asked her what it was like in winter, and her reply was
"i'm freezing all the time". Luckily this house had had an
external class 1 chimney added by the 1st owner so her other
half could spend lots of his time in winter collecting wood
scraps to burn.

The compressor is the size of a US-style double fridge but
it is on a North facing wall so permanently in shade. I suspect
this makes a big difference because here in Sussex the solar gain
in winter is very noticible. On a really cold day, even with
bright sun, the air at the back of the house is still cold.

On 12/11/2020 17:48, misterroy wrote:
which has a life expectancy of 10 years.

Oh yeah. If only it would.

Theo wrote:

Unlike combustion, heat pumps have a smaller range of power outputs
they're happy with.

The kensa gshp doesn't modulate, they're either full on or off, seems to
imply buffer tanks to underfloor pipework may be needed to stop rapid
cycling.

Hi
I had an LG Therma Split system fitted nearly 3 years ago to replace a coal fired boiler.
What do you need to know?

--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...g-3069787-.htm

"Linley" wrote in message
roupdirect.com...
Hi
I had an LG Therma Split system fitted nearly 3 years ago to replace a
coal fired boiler. What do you need to know?

how noisy is it (from inside the house)

Would it keep a light sleeper awake in an adjacent room?