Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

I got an estimate for my house, 9385+VAT for the ground loops, tanks
and pumps, 3K for the under floor heating to go with it, plus say 2000
install charges.
That will get me (at best) 4 units of heat out, for each unit of
electric in, 3 from the ground, 1 from the spare heat of the electric.

With the cost of a simple electric fires, install cost is 1-2K.

If I need 8 KW to heat my house on a very cold day, and I heat it 12
hours a day, for say 150 days a year.

I work this out as taking 10+ years to get to break even. Once you get
to breakeven costs for the GSH are attractive, but its a long haul to
get there.

Do other people get the costs in the same ballpark ?

I then took a look at a coal fueld boiler, and got the break even
point with GSH into many decades, long past my death anyway. Does this
sound reasonable ?

Gas is out of the question, oil seems a bad choice, there is only one
delivery agent in my area who use a tractor. I have no room to turn a
waggon at my house, but a tractor, in summer, can turn in the fields.

Thanks
Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
...
Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

I got an estimate for my house, 9385+VAT for the ground loops, tanks
and pumps, 3K for the under floor heating to go with it, plus say 2000
install charges.
That will get me (at best) 4 units of heat out, for each unit of
electric in, 3 from the ground, 1 from the spare heat of the electric.

With the cost of a simple electric fires, install cost is 1-2K.

If I need 8 KW to heat my house on a very cold day, and I heat it 12
hours a day, for say 150 days a year.

I work this out as taking 10+ years to get to break even. Once you get
to breakeven costs for the GSH are attractive, but its a long haul to
get there.

Do other people get the costs in the same ballpark ?

I then took a look at a coal fueld boiler, and got the break even
point with GSH into many decades, long past my death anyway. Does this
sound reasonable ?

Gas is out of the question, oil seems a bad choice, there is only one
delivery agent in my area who use a tractor. I have no room to turn a
waggon at my house, but a tractor, in summer, can turn in the fields.

Thanks
Rick


How much roof area do you have? A simple heating circuit running from a
pipework system on the roof can give much better solar heating than GSH
systems can. If your roof faces the right direction (south in most cases),
then a solar hot water collector on the roof is a viable alternative to GSH.

On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 16:18:19 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:


"Rick" wrote in message
.. .
Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

I got an estimate for my house, 9385+VAT for the ground loops, tanks
and pumps, 3K for the under floor heating to go with it, plus say 2000
install charges.
That will get me (at best) 4 units of heat out, for each unit of
electric in, 3 from the ground, 1 from the spare heat of the electric.

With the cost of a simple electric fires, install cost is 1-2K.

If I need 8 KW to heat my house on a very cold day, and I heat it 12
hours a day, for say 150 days a year.

I work this out as taking 10+ years to get to break even. Once you get
to breakeven costs for the GSH are attractive, but its a long haul to
get there.

Do other people get the costs in the same ballpark ?

I then took a look at a coal fueld boiler, and got the break even
point with GSH into many decades, long past my death anyway. Does this
sound reasonable ?

Gas is out of the question, oil seems a bad choice, there is only one
delivery agent in my area who use a tractor. I have no room to turn a
waggon at my house, but a tractor, in summer, can turn in the fields.

Thanks
Rick


How much roof area do you have? A simple heating circuit running from a
pipework system on the roof can give much better solar heating than GSH
systems can. If your roof faces the right direction (south in most cases),
then a solar hot water collector on the roof is a viable alternative to GSH.


The only sensible roof space (facing SW) is shaded by a massive oak
tree :-(

The oak tree is not removale, its owner will not let me take it down,
its probably hundreds of years old.


Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
...
Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

I got an estimate for my house, 9385+VAT for the ground loops, tanks
and pumps, 3K for the under floor heating to go with it, plus say 2000
install charges.
That will get me (at best) 4 units of heat out, for each unit of
electric in, 3 from the ground, 1 from the spare heat of the electric.

With the cost of a simple electric fires, install cost is 1-2K.

If I need 8 KW to heat my house on a very cold day, and I heat it 12
hours a day, for say 150 days a year.

I work this out as taking 10+ years to get to break even. Once you get
to breakeven costs for the GSH are attractive, but its a long haul to
get there.

Do other people get the costs in the same ballpark ?

I then took a look at a coal fueld boiler, and got the break even
point with GSH into many decades, long past my death anyway. Does this
sound reasonable ?

Gas is out of the question, oil seems a bad choice, there is only one
delivery agent in my area who use a tractor. I have no room to turn a
waggon at my house, but a tractor, in summer, can turn in the fields.

Thanks
Rick

A whole full solar roof is far different from a panel or two and may cost
less than the 9k for a geothermal heat pump, which you have to pay to run. A
solar roof is just the cost of running a pump. At best a heat pump can
compete with a natural gas boiler in running costs. Using a Large thermal
store with UFH make sure the UFH is "very" low temperature, that is
installing more pipework under the floors.

A heat pump may have a COP of say 3. That is for every kW you use it outputs
3kW. But in winter you will freeze, or make the ground very cold, so less
heat is available to pump into the house. Then the COP drops. When the
ground gets very cold around the bore pipe, the heat pump may not be capable
of raising the water to DHW temperatures. For example, a heat pump with a
COP of 4 takes 1 unit of electrical energy and pulls 3 units of heat energy
from the ground, water, etc, to supply 4 units of heat energy where needed.
If the heat pump cannot pull the heat energy from somewhere, the COP drops
back to 1.

Then expensive to run electric immersions have to be used, as well also with
a COP of 1.

Assess a full solar roof, on a southish facing roof, heating a large thermal
store that provides very low temepearure UFH and DHW. You may need a backup
immersion in the thermal store for cloudy days. Also increase insulation
levels, and make the house more air-tight.

"Rick" wrote in message
...
Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

I got an estimate for my house, 9385+VAT for the ground loops, tanks
and pumps, 3K for the under floor heating to go with it, plus say 2000
install charges.

snipped

Gas is out of the question, oil seems a bad choice, there is only one
delivery agent in my area who use a tractor. I have no room to turn a
waggon at my house, but a tractor, in summer, can turn in the fields.

Thanks
Rick


================
Are you being a bit hasty in ruling out gas? Calor gas can be delivered in
bulk to a large on-site tank. It would appear to be a viable alternative to
oil and much cheaper than GSH.

Cic.

Rick wrote:
Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

I got an estimate for my house, 9385+VAT for the ground loops, tanks
and pumps, 3K for the under floor heating to go with it, plus say 2000
install charges.

www.clear-skies.gov.uk reckon about half that for a typical
installation, and you can get a 1200 pound grant. No, it is not worth
it, none of them are, unless you are lacking mains electricity.

Cheap rate overnight electricity into a central storage widget might
be worth considering in your situation (especially if you want UFH
anyway), with top-up electric fires.

"Cicero" wrote in message
k...

"Rick" wrote in message
...
Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

I got an estimate for my house, 9385+VAT for the ground loops, tanks
and pumps, 3K for the under floor heating to go with it, plus say 2000
install charges.

snipped

Gas is out of the question, oil seems a bad choice, there is only one
delivery agent in my area who use a tractor. I have no room to turn a
waggon at my house, but a tractor, in summer, can turn in the fields.

Thanks
Rick


================
Are you being a bit hasty in ruling out gas? Calor gas can be delivered
in
bulk to a large on-site tank. It would appear to be a viable alternative
to
oil and much cheaper than GSH.

LPG is quite expensive. It is by-product of oil. Capital cost is far is
cheaper, as they use normal gas boilers. Running cost can be a lot higher
than a well installed heat pump. But, what you save in installing a heat
pump pay for a hell of a lot of gas over and above the electricity you use.

In the USA heat pumps are popular as they also use them to cool as well. As
we don't have that requirement in the UK, they are an expensive fad most of
the time.

On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:24:26 GMT, "Cicero"
wrote:


"Rick" wrote in message
.. .
Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

I got an estimate for my house, 9385+VAT for the ground loops, tanks
and pumps, 3K for the under floor heating to go with it, plus say 2000
install charges.

snipped

Gas is out of the question, oil seems a bad choice, there is only one
delivery agent in my area who use a tractor. I have no room to turn a
waggon at my house, but a tractor, in summer, can turn in the fields.

Thanks
Rick


================
Are you being a bit hasty in ruling out gas? Calor gas can be delivered in
bulk to a large on-site tank. It would appear to be a viable alternative to
oil and much cheaper than GSH.

Cic.


Gas can only be delivered 1/3 a mile from my house, else the choice
would be easy. There are no local gas delivery compaines that deliver
by tractor, there is no turning room at my house, you have to have a
car, or a tractor. I could dig in a 1/3 of a mile pipe for a few
grand, it would have to go into the existing track, which does not
strike me as wise.

Rick

"Nick Finnigan" wrote in message
...
Rick wrote:
Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

I got an estimate for my house, 9385+VAT for the ground loops, tanks
and pumps, 3K for the under floor heating to go with it, plus say 2000
install charges.

www.clear-skies.gov.uk reckon about half that for a typical
installation, and you can get a 1200 pound grant. No, it is not worth
it, none of them are, unless you are lacking mains electricity.

Cheap rate overnight electricity into a central storage widget might
be worth considering in your situation (especially if you want UFH
anyway), with top-up electric fires.

Or if no natural gas pipes, keep to oil. Low capital cost. With what you
would save over a heat pump installation, you can buy a hell of a lot of
insulation,: cavity wall, loft, etc and make the house more air-tight.

"Rick" wrote in message
...

Gas can only be delivered 1/3 a mile from my house, else the choice
would be easy. There are no local gas delivery compaines that deliver
by tractor, there is no turning room at my house, you have to have a
car, or a tractor. I could dig in a 1/3 of a mile pipe for a few
grand, it would have to go into the existing track, which does not
strike me as wise.

Rick


Wouldn't it be cheaper to put in a turning area for small tankers? Tank
tracking would sit under the grass and not be too visible...

On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 19:21:46 GMT, "PC Paul" wrote:

"Rick" wrote in message
.. .

Gas can only be delivered 1/3 a mile from my house, else the choice
would be easy. There are no local gas delivery compaines that deliver
by tractor, there is no turning room at my house, you have to have a
car, or a tractor. I could dig in a 1/3 of a mile pipe for a few
grand, it would have to go into the existing track, which does not
strike me as wise.

Rick


Wouldn't it be cheaper to put in a turning area for small tankers? Tank
tracking would sit under the grass and not be too visible...


I live on the top of a glaciated valley, 15 foot from my house is a
very steep 100 foot drop, the other way its still pretty steep, the
farmers only take the tractors in the fields when its dry, and having
seen a 6 tonne excavator slide on the field I can understand why. I'd
end up moving thousands of tonnes of stuff to acheive a turning circle
:-(

On the other hand, I have an a wonderfull view from my bedroom window,
and virtually no possability of sombody building a phone mast neerby
:-)

Rick

On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 20:10:20 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Nick Finnigan" wrote in message
. ..
Rick wrote:
Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

I got an estimate for my house, 9385+VAT for the ground loops, tanks
and pumps, 3K for the under floor heating to go with it, plus say 2000
install charges.

www.clear-skies.gov.uk reckon about half that for a typical
installation, and you can get a 1200 pound grant. No, it is not worth
it, none of them are, unless you are lacking mains electricity.

Cheap rate overnight electricity into a central storage widget might
be worth considering in your situation (especially if you want UFH
anyway), with top-up electric fires.

Or if no natural gas pipes, keep to oil. Low capital cost. With what you
would save over a heat pump installation, you can buy a hell of a lot of
insulation,: cavity wall, loft, etc and make the house more air-tight.


Thats what I just started working out, my simple maths has got it
taking 10 years to break even over simple electric heaters, and 85
years for a coal boiler.

I wanted a windmill when I brought the house, its in a National
Assembly windmill approved area, but the concensous of local people is
that they are windmill haters.

Rick

Rick wrote:

I wanted a windmill when I brought the house, its in a National
Assembly windmill approved area

The basic price for the turbine, after the grant, you could maybe
justify. Adding the support and control gear doubles the cost, and
then you need exceptional conditions for it to be worthwhile.

Rick wrote:
"Doctor Evil" wrote:
Or if no natural gas pipes, keep to oil. Low capital cost. With what you
would save over a heat pump installation, you can buy a hell of a lot of
insulation,: cavity wall, loft, etc and make the house more air-tight.

I would agree with IMM/DrE except that electric will have an even lower
capital cost than oil.

I wanted a windmill when I brought the house, its in a National
Assembly windmill approved area, but the concensous of local people is
that they are windmill haters.

You could have just a little windmill, make your own savonious rotor out
of an old oil drum, just for the fun of it.

Owain

Rick wrote:

On the other hand, I have an a wonderfull view from my bedroom window,

Got any pics Rick?

Sounds like an interesting place.


--
http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK.
http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL!
http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers.
http://gymratz.co.uk/hot-seat.htm - Live web-cam! (sometimes)

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Rick wrote:
"Doctor Evil" wrote:
Or if no natural gas pipes, keep to oil. Low capital cost. With what
you
would save over a heat pump installation, you can buy a hell of a lot of
insulation,: cavity wall, loft, etc and make the house more air-tight.

I would agree with IMM/DrE except that electric will have an even lower
capital cost than oil.

I wanted a windmill when I brought the house, its in a National
Assembly windmill approved area, but the concensous of local people is
that they are windmill haters.

You could have just a little windmill, make your own savonious rotor out
of an old oil drum, just for the fun of it.

Owain


Three of my colleagues have created small wind turbines from vehicle
alternators and kids toy car gear boxes. They provide battery charging on
remote sites that have no services installed. Very good idea for LV
lighting systems or battery powered heating systems. Wind turbines don't
need to be really huge and complicated for them to work well.

Nick Finnigan wrote:

The basic price for the turbine, after the grant, you could maybe
justify. Adding the support and control gear doubles the cost, and
then you need exceptional conditions for it to be worthwhile.

I was looking at the viabillity of the following "mini" turbines a while ago
http://www.renewabledevices.com/swift/index.htm

Certainly looks a lot less hassle than having to crank one up on a great
big tower.


--
http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK.
http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL!
http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers.
http://gymratz.co.uk/hot-seat.htm - Live web-cam! (sometimes)

"Rick" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 19:21:46 GMT, "PC Paul" wrote:

Wouldn't it be cheaper to put in a turning area for small tankers? Tank
tracking would sit under the grass and not be too visible...


I live on the top of a glaciated valley, 15 foot from my house is a
very steep 100 foot drop, the other way its still pretty steep, the
farmers only take the tractors in the fields when its dry, and having
seen a 6 tonne excavator slide on the field I can understand why. I'd
end up moving thousands of tonnes of stuff to acheive a turning circle
:-(

Well if you're not even prepared to try....

;-)

Rick wrote:
On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:24:26 GMT, "Cicero"
wrote:


"Rick" wrote in message
.. .
Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

I got an estimate for my house, 9385+VAT for the ground loops, tanks
and pumps, 3K for the under floor heating to go with it, plus say 2000
install charges.

snipped

Gas is out of the question, oil seems a bad choice, there is only one
delivery agent in my area who use a tractor. I have no room to turn a
waggon at my house, but a tractor, in summer, can turn in the fields.

Thanks
Rick


================
Are you being a bit hasty in ruling out gas? Calor gas can be delivered in
bulk to a large on-site tank. It would appear to be a viable alternative to
oil and much cheaper than GSH.

Cic.


Gas can only be delivered 1/3 a mile from my house, else the choice
would be easy. There are no local gas delivery compaines that deliver
by tractor, there is no turning room at my house, you have to have a
car, or a tractor. I could dig in a 1/3 of a mile pipe for a few
grand, it would have to go into the existing track, which does not
strike me as wise.

How much would it cost to build a turning circle in the field? Then you
could have anything delivered.

Andrew

wrote in message
oups.com...


Rick wrote:
"Rick" wrote in message
.. .
Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

snipped

Gas can only be delivered 1/3 a mile from my house, else the choice
would be easy. There are no local gas delivery compaines that deliver
by tractor, there is no turning room at my house, you have to have a
car, or a tractor. I could dig in a 1/3 of a mile pipe for a few
grand, it would have to go into the existing track, which does not
strike me as wise.

How much would it cost to build a turning circle in the field? Then you
could have anything delivered.

Andrew

=====================
It doesn't have to be a turning 'circle' - it could be a turntable as used
by steam railways. People have used them on a small scale for turning cars
in their drives to avoid reversing into main road traffic.

Cic.

"Cicero" wrote in message
. uk...

wrote in message
oups.com...


Rick wrote:
"Rick" wrote in message
.. .
Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

snipped

Gas can only be delivered 1/3 a mile from my house, else the choice
would be easy. There are no local gas delivery compaines that deliver
by tractor, there is no turning room at my house, you have to have a
car, or a tractor. I could dig in a 1/3 of a mile pipe for a few
grand, it would have to go into the existing track, which does not
strike me as wise.

How much would it cost to build a turning circle in the field? Then you
could have anything delivered.

Andrew

=====================
It doesn't have to be a turning 'circle' - it could be a turntable as used
by steam railways. People have used them on a small scale for turning cars
in their drives to avoid reversing into main road traffic.

One of those for 2K and he's still ahead of the game.

On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 23:09:30 +0100, Owain
wrote:


You could have just a little windmill, make your own savonious rotor out
of an old oil drum, just for the fun of it.

Very heavy. Much better to fabricate something out of
aluminium/plastic sheeting.

On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 16:03:07 GMT, Rick wrote:

Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

stuff snipped

If doing a lot of work to the property and garden, I'd consider laying
the loops in the garden and UFH loops in the house to make it easier
to install in future if you want.

I then took a look at a coal fueld boiler, and got the break even
point with GSH into many decades, long past my death anyway. Does this
sound reasonable ?

How about a coal stove(s) with back boiler? Also air source heat
pump/air conditioners which will work well in all but the coldest
weather.

Last time I looked, electric heat was 2x the cost of coal using
Phurnacite, which was in turn 2x the cost of natural gas or air source
heat pumps.

So in a rural location with no natural gas I'd consider air source
heat pumps, with coal stoves for the coldest weather and as backup.

Once the weather gets to the the point where the heat pumps are
operating at 50% efficiency then it makes sense to use coal instead.

If getting a few air source heat pumps then don't go for cheapo ones,
an air con supplier should give a good deal on some decent ones.

cheers,
Pete.

Gas is out of the question, oil seems a bad choice, there is only one
delivery agent in my area who use a tractor. I have no room to turn a
waggon at my house, but a tractor, in summer, can turn in the fields.

I'd go with the man with the tractor. Even if he charges a few pence more
than his rivals, it'll still be much cheaper than the alternatives, both in
capital and running costs. You'll need lots of insulation and a big tank, so
that you can reliably get through the non-accessible period of the year.

Alternatively, see if someone will deliver at the roadside in barrels, which
you can ferry up and down the drive in the back of a Land Rover pickup at
your leisure.

Christian.

In article , Rick news@pen-
y-geulan.com writes
Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

I got an estimate for my house, 9385+VAT for the ground loops, tanks
and pumps, 3K for the under floor heating to go with it, plus say 2000
install charges.
That will get me (at best) 4 units of heat out, for each unit of
electric in, 3 from the ground, 1 from the spare heat of the electric.

With the cost of a simple electric fires, install cost is 1-2K.

If I need 8 KW to heat my house on a very cold day, and I heat it 12
hours a day, for say 150 days a year.

I work this out as taking 10+ years to get to break even. Once you get
to breakeven costs for the GSH are attractive, but its a long haul to
get there.

Do other people get the costs in the same ballpark ?

I then took a look at a coal fueld boiler, and got the break even
point with GSH into many decades, long past my death anyway. Does this
sound reasonable ?

Gas is out of the question, oil seems a bad choice, there is only one
delivery agent in my area who use a tractor. I have no room to turn a
waggon at my house, but a tractor, in summer, can turn in the fields.

Thanks
Rick

If you can get a vehicle to your house (or even if you can't) you can
use oil, its just a case of using a transport system that works for you
I've collected heating oil in 25L, 200L and 1000L containers and carted
in vans, estates and trailers, you could even set up a holding tank in
a more accessible place if you want tanker delivery and then cart it at
your leisure.

--
David

"David" wrote in message
news
In article , Rick news@pen-
y-geulan.com writes
Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

I got an estimate for my house, 9385+VAT for the ground loops, tanks
and pumps, 3K for the under floor heating to go with it, plus say 2000
install charges.
That will get me (at best) 4 units of heat out, for each unit of
electric in, 3 from the ground, 1 from the spare heat of the electric.

With the cost of a simple electric fires, install cost is 1-2K.

If I need 8 KW to heat my house on a very cold day, and I heat it 12
hours a day, for say 150 days a year.

I work this out as taking 10+ years to get to break even. Once you get
to breakeven costs for the GSH are attractive, but its a long haul to
get there.

Do other people get the costs in the same ballpark ?

I then took a look at a coal fueld boiler, and got the break even
point with GSH into many decades, long past my death anyway. Does this
sound reasonable ?

Gas is out of the question, oil seems a bad choice, there is only one
delivery agent in my area who use a tractor. I have no room to turn a
waggon at my house, but a tractor, in summer, can turn in the fields.

Thanks
Rick

If you can get a vehicle to your house (or even if you can't) you can
use oil, its just a case of using a transport system that works for you
I've collected heating oil in 25L, 200L and 1000L containers and carted
in vans, estates and trailers, you could even set up a holding tank in
a more accessible place if you want tanker delivery and then cart it at
your leisure.

A pipe 1/3 of a mile long is not that difficult or expensive to do. It
doesn't have to be underground. One tank at the gate and another at the
house and a pump to pull it through. Even if it is a 15mm pipe, the pump
can work all night pumping from one tank to the other, ensuring it is full
up.

I would consider:

- A full souhthish facing solar roof.
- Very low temp UFH feeding a large thermal store.
- Electric backup.
- "very" high insulation levels, borsering on superinsulation.
- make the hosue air tight.

Should be very cheap to run as well.

On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:55:48 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Cicero" wrote in message
.uk...

wrote in message
oups.com...


Rick wrote:
"Rick" wrote in message
.. .
Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

snipped

Gas can only be delivered 1/3 a mile from my house, else the choice
would be easy. There are no local gas delivery compaines that deliver
by tractor, there is no turning room at my house, you have to have a
car, or a tractor. I could dig in a 1/3 of a mile pipe for a few
grand, it would have to go into the existing track, which does not
strike me as wise.

How much would it cost to build a turning circle in the field? Then you
could have anything delivered.

Andrew

=====================
It doesn't have to be a turning 'circle' - it could be a turntable as used
by steam railways. People have used them on a small scale for turning cars
in their drives to avoid reversing into main road traffic.

One of those for 2K and he's still ahead of the game.

I could buy the feild (10K or so), get a turntable to take a 7.5 tonne
truck, and then I'd still have to widen and straighten the track 30K+

Sort of moves the scales of econnomy away from gas :-)

On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:29:19 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"David" wrote in message
news
In article , Rick news@pen-
y-geulan.com writes
Is GSH really worth the huge installation cost ?

I got an estimate for my house, 9385+VAT for the ground loops, tanks
and pumps, 3K for the under floor heating to go with it, plus say 2000
install charges.
That will get me (at best) 4 units of heat out, for each unit of
electric in, 3 from the ground, 1 from the spare heat of the electric.

With the cost of a simple electric fires, install cost is 1-2K.

If I need 8 KW to heat my house on a very cold day, and I heat it 12
hours a day, for say 150 days a year.

I work this out as taking 10+ years to get to break even. Once you get
to breakeven costs for the GSH are attractive, but its a long haul to
get there.

Do other people get the costs in the same ballpark ?

I then took a look at a coal fueld boiler, and got the break even
point with GSH into many decades, long past my death anyway. Does this
sound reasonable ?

Gas is out of the question, oil seems a bad choice, there is only one
delivery agent in my area who use a tractor. I have no room to turn a
waggon at my house, but a tractor, in summer, can turn in the fields.

Thanks
Rick

If you can get a vehicle to your house (or even if you can't) you can
use oil, its just a case of using a transport system that works for you
I've collected heating oil in 25L, 200L and 1000L containers and carted
in vans, estates and trailers, you could even set up a holding tank in
a more accessible place if you want tanker delivery and then cart it at
your leisure.

A pipe 1/3 of a mile long is not that difficult or expensive to do. It
doesn't have to be underground. One tank at the gate and another at the
house and a pump to pull it through. Even if it is a 15mm pipe, the pump
can work all night pumping from one tank to the other, ensuring it is full
up.

I would consider:

- A full souhthish facing solar roof.
I don't have one of these :-(
- Very low temp UFH feeding a large thermal store.
- Electric backup.
- "very" high insulation levels, borsering on superinsulation.
I'm at 0.2 U value
- make the hosue air tight.
I hope to get it neer to air tight

Should be very cheap to run as well.


I have sort of backed away a bit, I am thinking of getting it air
tight, and then seeing how much heat I need to keep it wharm. This
will give me a rough idea of how much heating to add.

I have looked at big log boliers that need to go in before the walls
are finished, lovley idea, but again a huge capital cost, and possibly
not pratical when I am too old to work a chainsaw.

On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 23:41:57 +0100, wrote:

On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:48:17 +0100, David
wrote:

If you can get a vehicle to your house (or even if you can't) you can
use oil, its just a case of using a transport system that works for you
I've collected heating oil in 25L, 200L and 1000L containers and carted
in vans, estates and trailers, you could even set up a holding tank in
a more accessible place if you want tanker delivery and then cart it at
your leisure.

I think the 4 wheel bowser I tow for refueling the bigger machines is
2000ltr, you need a 4wd to tow it but in principle I see no reason why
it should not be the oil central heating tank, it's fully bunded. Mind
it may be best to remove the wheels during static duty.

AJH

I think I could make that Idea work, and oil tank on wheels - obvious
really - but I didn't think of it, then I get the farmer to tractor it
upto the road for filling :-)

Thanks
Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:29:19 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:

snipped
Should be very cheap to run as well.


I have sort of backed away a bit, I am thinking of getting it air
tight, and then seeing how much heat I need to keep it wharm. This
will give me a rough idea of how much heating to add.

I have looked at big log boliers that need to go in before the walls
are finished, lovley idea, but again a huge capital cost, and possibly
not pratical when I am too old to work a chainsaw.

Have you looked at any dual fuel type boilers? I hear that some are very
good now'a'days, but I've never actually heard of anyone using them much, in
the UK anyway. They are very popular on other parts of the globe though.

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 17:00:57 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:


"Rick" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:29:19 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:

snipped
Should be very cheap to run as well.


I have sort of backed away a bit, I am thinking of getting it air
tight, and then seeing how much heat I need to keep it wharm. This
will give me a rough idea of how much heating to add.

I have looked at big log boliers that need to go in before the walls
are finished, lovley idea, but again a huge capital cost, and possibly
not pratical when I am too old to work a chainsaw.

Have you looked at any dual fuel type boilers? I hear that some are very
good now'a'days, but I've never actually heard of anyone using them much, in
the UK anyway. They are very popular on other parts of the globe though.

Baxi do One, I have found a UK supplier, but not got a price yet. If I
can fit it so I can feed it from outside the house, then I'll be very
pleased. Assuming I can afford it.

I did find a different company that did them, starting price was 35K,
more than half my total build budget.

Rick

- make the hosue air tight.

I hope to get it neer to air tight

bad news for health.



I have looked at big log boliers that need to go in before the walls
are finished, lovley idea, but again a huge capital cost, and possibly
not pratical when I am too old to work a chainsaw.

huge capital cost? They dont cost much if you build them in situ. Just
a big brick chamber, big enough to take 4' logs, so no need to chop
them, with a cast iron top to let the heat escape, and cook on, and a
chimney, either brick or steel tube. Insulated loading door plus
controllable air intake. Iron bars across the base would help too.

And you can burn various in them, wood, straw, sorted garbage, dried
garden junk, and with sufficient care even coal. (coal burns too hot
for bricks, so youd have to use a smaller basket to keep the coal away
from the brick.) Most efficient burning occurs when you allow full air
flow, burn fast, die down, burn fast, die down, etc.

(And, if youre frugal to the point of insane, you can even burn turds
as well! Just put the loo far enough from the thing so you dont cook
yourself.)

Re solar, if your whole house is shaded, can you put a big solar
collector up where its not shaded? Use a frame and film to reflcet and
concentrate the light, to reduce collector cost and improve its
effiency.

Note the solar app of choice is hot air, not water.

Reduce energy need by fitting a wastewater heat exchanger, they pay
very well.

Re wood burners, you do have to have heat when youre ill too, so you
shuold be able to survive without using it for limited times. No
chainsaw is needed, if youre not upto it, just order a truck load of
wood. And wood can often be got free as offcuts, if you dont care what
it looks like. Lots gets landfilled.

Oh, passive heating can reduce your bills too, though its only useful
in the milder parts of the year.


NT