On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:04:17 GMT, "Peter Aitken"
wrote:



. And, IIRC, freezers are designed to operate at
about 0 degrees, not -20 ( I assume you mean f).

???
Mine is operating at -18
The fridge at 4.
Both Celsius.



---
"Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four essential food groups:
Alcohol, Caffeine, Sugar & Fat"

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:49:54 -0000, "Notty Pine"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:10:08 -0000, "Notty Pine"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message


I measured the temperature in mine, and it increases by less than
a
degree. Since it is operated at about -20 this is not
significant.


Did you check it with a Max/Minimum thermometer over 24 hours? If
you
did, you would get surprising results, but if you actually measure
the
temperature of the food, instead of the air surrounding it, then it
would probably not be as bad as it seems.

I did both. The 1 degree was in air temperature in the centre of
the
cabinet with drawers reasonably full but not crammed


Well something is seriously wrong with your testing, or your
equipment, because most thermostats have about a 5 degree C difference
between on and off, making a less than 1 degree difference impossible
to achieve.


No it isn't. I know perfectly well how to do a temperature test,
thanks.

This particular freezer has microprocessor based control and
insulation to meet the highest energy saving rating.

The hysteresis of the thermostat is a great deal less than 5 degrees
as it reasonably can be given the design and class of insultation.

If you have an old freezer with a mechanical thermostat, you may wish
to consider updating it to a more modern product.....



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:04:17 GMT, "Peter Aitken"
wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:55:52 GMT, "Peter Aitken"
wrote:

"P and H Macguire" wrote in message
...
Our 22 year-old Electrolux fridge/freezer is beginning to rust! and
also I
suspect it's costing a lot more to run than modern ones, so we're
replacing
it.

My question is, does anyone have strong views for or against frost-free
machines?


Frost-free is more convenient but not as good for keeping food for more
than
a couple of months. This is because the frost-removal cycle warms up the
freezer. The food does not thaw but the regular warming and cooling
affects
quality.


That depends on the design of the appliance and how the frost removal
is controlled.

I measured the temperature in mine, and it increases by less than a
degree. Since it is operated at about -20 this is not significant.


Then you measured the temperature wrong.

No I didn't. You didn't read what I said. I know how to conduct
temperature measurements, thank you.


Please explain how going from -20
to -19 can remove frost.

The temperature readings were made in the centre part of the cabinet,
and I also measured near the top and bottom.

The evaporator of the freezer is in a compartment separated from the
rest of the freezer and air is circulated between it and the food
storage area with a fan. For the frost- free cycle, the fan is
turned off and the evaporator is heated for a short period. This
does not result in a significant rise in temperature in the rest of
the cabinet because insulation separates the area of the evaporator
from the rest of the cabinet and it is at the top anyway..

At the end of the cycle, the compressor runs to chill the evaporator
before the fan is started again so that warm air is not circulated.

The particular freezer has microprocessor control of the whole
operation and is highly insulated, so is able to maintain very tight
temperature control.

And, IIRC, freezers are designed to operate at
about 0 degrees, not -20 ( I assume you mean f).

Rubbish. The freezer compartment in the top of a fridge (if it has
one) may run at around zero degrees. In a freezer, the normal
operating temperature is in the -18 to -23 range.

No I don't mean degrees Fahrenheit, I always use Celsius.





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Adrian" wrote in message
. 1.4...
Neil Jones ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like
they were saying :

Beko and Mandela were in the resistance against apartheid. Beko's
doors fell off at an early stage whilst being subject to rather
unhinged
behaviour whilst in police custody.

Thanks - it's now obvious to all that I

have been living in a cave devoid of all access to current affairs for
the
last three decades.

Having looked it up on the internet, Steve Biko died when I was 5 year
old.

Obviously I know who Nelson Mandela is, but I didn't understand a link
between Mandela and Beko.

But, it's quite a nice cave, after all this time.

Regards

Neil

In article ,
Peter Aitken wrote:

Then you measured the temperature wrong. Please explain how going from -20
to -19 can remove frost.

It doesn't - the frost is outside the freezer compartment cooling the air
that is blown into the freezer isn't it??

Just because the cooling unit is warmed up to remove the frost doesn't mean
that the main compartment containing the food is.

And, IIRC, freezers are designed to operate at about 0 degrees, not -20
( I assume you mean f).

Eh?

Darren

Then you measured the temperature wrong. Please explain how going
from -20 to -19 can remove frost. And, IIRC, freezers are designed to
operate at about 0 degrees, not -20 ( I assume you mean f).

No. Freezers should be nominally at around -18C. We don't use Fahrenheit in
this country, unless you listen to Radio 2.

The frost free doesn't heat the food compartment to above freezing. That can
stay at -18C. It just runs hot through the evaporator to remove water. Some
older designs didn't have the fan/separate evaporator, so did warm the food
compartment significantly during the defrost cycle. My parents had one like
this about 20 years ago.

Christian.

Rubbish. The freezer compartment in the top of a fridge (if it has
one) may run at around zero degrees. In a freezer, the normal
operating temperature is in the -18 to -23 range.


My freezer operates at -5 to -10 range. I think it's on the way out. I put
a chicken in there about a month ago, took it out last weekend, defrosted
it, started cooking it and immediately it began to warm up I could smell
rotton meat! Not nice. Thinking it may need just to be regassing, however,
the thing is only 4 years old (Hotpoint). Is it worth it or should I
consider buying a new one. How much is it to regas a fridge/freezer. The
fridge part seems fine, although that also struggled last year in the very
hot weather. The f/f did get moved around quite a bit last year when we did
the kitchen out.

No. Freezers should be nominally at around -18C. We don't use
Fahrenheit in this country, unless you listen to Radio 2.

Whoops, sorry just noticed the non-UK crosspost. Obviously US subscriber to
rec.food.equipment can use Fahrenheit all they like (and can even listen to
Radio 2 if so inclined).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio2.shtml?listen

Christian.

Subject: Fridge/freezer replacement
From: "CMS Tom"

Thinking it may need just to be regassing, however,
the thing is only 4 years old (Hotpoint). Is it worth it or should I
consider buying a new one. How much is it to regas a fridge/freezer.

If you receive no help here try 'Domestic appliance repair' group at
yahoo.co.uk.

John.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:49:54 -0000, "Notty Pine"
wrote:

Well something is seriously wrong with your testing, or your
equipment, because most thermostats have about a 5 degree C
difference
between on and off, making a less than 1 degree difference
impossible
to achieve.


No it isn't. I know perfectly well how to do a temperature test,
thanks.

This particular freezer has microprocessor based control and
insulation to meet the highest energy saving rating.

The hysteresis of the thermostat is a great deal less than 5 degrees
as it reasonably can be given the design and class of insultation.


I am still not convinced about your results. If a thermostat was set
to less than a 1 degree C difference, between on and off, as you
implied with your test results, then the freezer compressor would be
constantly switching on and off, which would cost a fortune to run as
compressors use a high starting current.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:50:16 -0000, "Neil Jones"
wrote:

-
-"Rob S" wrote in message
...

- -The door fell off my Beko fridge after a couple of years.
-
- Should have got a Mandela one.
-
- -Rob
- robatwork at mail dot com
-
-Que?
-

Is that LOL in some strange tongue?

Anyway thanks for putting him straight, although I can't help thinking the joke
has lost a tiny bit in the process.

Now let's start a thread on Candy appliances. I've got a great joke for that.


-Rob
robatwork at mail dot com

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:43:10 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

-The hysteresis of the thermostat is a great deal less than 5 degrees
-as it reasonably can be given the design and class of insultation.

Thanks! That's the best typo I've seen in ages.

I can stand down the Candy joke now.


-Rob
robatwork at mail dot com

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:25:53 -0000, "Notty Pine"
wrote:



I am still not convinced about your results. If a thermostat was set
to less than a 1 degree C difference, between on and off, as you
implied with your test results, then the freezer compressor would be
constantly switching on and off, which would cost a fortune to run as
compressors use a high starting current.


No it wouldn't. The rate of temperature change inside when the
compressor is not running is determined by the effectiveness of the
insulation and by the ambient temperature.

I am referring to an A+ efficiency graded appliance and much of that
capability is as a result of insulation and of close control.

It is therefore quite reasonable for it to have a small hysteresis
because this will not result in rapid switching on and off.


The results are the results. I'm sorry if they don't fit in with
your preconceived ideas and older technology.






..andy

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On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:10:47 +0000, Rob S
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:43:10 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

-The hysteresis of the thermostat is a great deal less than 5 degrees
-as it reasonably can be given the design and class of insultation.

Thanks! That's the best typo I've seen in ages.

I try to drop them in occasionally to see if people are awake.

In the last week I've done a number that have gone unnoticed...... :-)



I can stand down the Candy joke now.


Go, on, don't disappoint.





-Rob
robatwork at mail dot com

..andy

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On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:32:02 -0000, "CMS Tom"
wrote:

Rubbish. The freezer compartment in the top of a fridge (if it has
one) may run at around zero degrees. In a freezer, the normal
operating temperature is in the -18 to -23 range.


My freezer operates at -5 to -10 range. I think it's on the way out. I put
a chicken in there about a month ago, took it out last weekend, defrosted
it, started cooking it and immediately it began to warm up I could smell
rotton meat! Not nice. Thinking it may need just to be regassing, however,
the thing is only 4 years old (Hotpoint).

The big mistake was buying something from Hotpoint in the first place.

It's likely to be an escape of refrigerant or more likely the
compressor on the way out. If the compressor is changed, then it
has to be regassed anyway.

Is it worth it or should I
consider buying a new one. How much is it to regas a fridge/freezer.

I suspect that the largest cost would be the call out. I would be
surprised if the overall cost were under £100.


The
fridge part seems fine, although that also struggled last year in the very
hot weather. The f/f did get moved around quite a bit last year when we did
the kitchen out.

Then it's possible that the oil was displaced and the compressor ran
inadequately lubricated. That would tend to explain declining
performance. Manufacturers do suggest leaving refrigeration
equipment for 24hrs after significant movement before running.

I find that messing around with domestic appliances that are
unreliable just isn't worth the time and trouble. Many years ago, I
adopted a policy of only buying good quality products with good
service backup that hopefully will never be required.

Hence for laundry equipment I've used Miele, for refrigeration
Liebherr and so on. The initial investment is more, but I've found
it more than worthwhile.


..andy

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On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:22:28 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Then you measured the temperature wrong. Please explain how going
from -20 to -19 can remove frost. And, IIRC, freezers are designed to
operate at about 0 degrees, not -20 ( I assume you mean f).

No. Freezers should be nominally at around -18C. We don't use Fahrenheit in
this country, unless you listen to Radio 2.

ROTFL. :-)

... or buy things from Saga.....



The frost free doesn't heat the food compartment to above freezing. That can
stay at -18C. It just runs hot through the evaporator to remove water. Some
older designs didn't have the fan/separate evaporator, so did warm the food
compartment significantly during the defrost cycle. My parents had one like
this about 20 years ago.

Christian.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Subject: Fridge/freezer replacement
From: Andy Hall am

I find that messing around with domestic appliances that are
unreliable just isn't worth the time and trouble. Many years ago, I
adopted a policy of only buying good quality products with good
service backup that hopefully will never be required.

Many years ago I adopted a policy of buying the cheapest appliance that would
suit my requirements, I find that there is no great difference between the
reliability if the cheapest appliance and the more expensive ones with some
notable exceptions like Indeset which most people are aware of if they do a
little research.

For example a Servis Grade A energy grade A wash washing machine for £180, I
can actually buy 2 or more of these compared to a £360 to £440 machine and most
domestic appliances are easy to fix when they go wrong.

With the more expensive German machines the spare parts are often 5 times the
cost of the cheaper ones.

In reliability tests sometimes and I stress sometimes the cheaper makes are
actually more reliable, White Knight for example with tumble dryers and Candy
with dishwashers.

My 11.3 Cu Ft. Beko Frost Free Fridge Freezer for £240, again I can buy two of
these compared to more expensive Fridge Freezers and the money I save can go to
a extended warranty if so desired.

Also buying appliances is a bit of a gamble anyway, it does not matter if your
expensive appliance has a failiure rate of just 7% compared to a failiure rate
of 10% for an appliance costing half the more reliable appliance if you are
unlucky enough to have your more expensive appliance fail.

Regards,

John.

We have an Amana side by side and it's very quiet and reliable. As well as
the iceman in it (the story we tell our young daughter) we just hear the
motor cutting in and out - not surprising with an appliance that size,
particularly during a hot Australian summer.

Viviane

"DawnK" wrote in message
...

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
My question is, does anyone have strong views for or against
frost-free machines?

Buy one with 2 compressors, or at least a single compressor twin
thermostat
model. Frost free is a real convenience, but ask to hear the machine in
operation. Some (but not all) designs are horrendously noisy.

Christian.




My fridge is a frost-free Amana (freezer on top) and I hardly ever notice
it
running. The only noise I hear is occasionally from the ice-maker.
Although, my freezer is too crammed with stuff for the icemaker to
function
properly at the moment. The 12 yo Whirlpool it replaced, made enough
noise
that you could hear it ALL over the house! LOL! So, I think anything is
quieter than the fridge that was wearing out!

Dawn

On 28 Feb 2004 06:18:13 GMT, (JhnWil875) wrote:

Subject: Fridge/freezer replacement
From: Andy Hall am

I find that messing around with domestic appliances that are
unreliable just isn't worth the time and trouble. Many years ago, I
adopted a policy of only buying good quality products with good
service backup that hopefully will never be required.

Many years ago I adopted a policy of buying the cheapest appliance that would
suit my requirements, I find that there is no great difference between the
reliability if the cheapest appliance and the more expensive ones with some
notable exceptions like Indeset which most people are aware of if they do a
little research.



This doesn't account for the features and build quality and energy
considerations of course......


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Subject: Fridge/freezer replacement
From: Andy Hall am

Well I did write 'cheapest appliance that suited my requirements', for example
a Candy Sprint washing machine with grade A wash and grade A energy consumption
for £169.99. Has about 20 programmes and a 32 minute wash, I only use 2, the 40
and 60 degree ones.

Now it only has a 1000 spin instead of a 1600, but I aint interested in paying
out lots for a machine whose spin will shave 10 minutes off manual drying time
and knacker the bearings.

Also spares are cheap.

Downside to the machine, the bearings cant be easily replaced but I can live
with that knowing that it is less than half the price of some other classier
better build machines.

Dishwasher, lowest model Bosch which cost £200, only has two main wash
programmes instead of 20, does not have dinner plate warming, countdown timer,
LED display, water quality sensors, audible alarms, delay timer or silver
finish but does have the only 2 programmes that I would use anyway, standard
and economy with a grade A wash and Grade B energy.

Beko 11.3 Cu. Ft. Frost Free Fridge Freezer, £240, Grade B energy, does not
have antibacterial coatings, LED readouts, built in radio or teasmaid but does
keep my food frozen at -18 and my food rerigerated at 7' C.

All 3 appliances paid for on Barclaycard and have a 2 year warranty, washing
machine is now 3 years old and Fridge Freezer and Dishwasher 15 months, so far
so good.

When it comes to energy considerations the difference between a B and an A is
not so great as to justify me spending more than about £50 more on a Freezer.

The main thing I do is to research a new purchase to try and make sure it does
not have a bad reputation before I buy it as then I am at least in with a
fighting chance of it lasting and doing the job I want it to.

Ultimately buying an appliance is a personal choice and it looks like we both
go completely different ways about it, You obviously like, need and use digital
displays, alarms, timers, aquajets, radio's and anti-bacterial coatings on your
appliances and I dont need these frills.

Good luck to both of us I say.

John.

On 28 Feb 2004 22:43:37 GMT, (JhnWil875) wrote:

Subject: Fridge/freezer replacement
From: Andy Hall am

Well I did write 'cheapest appliance that suited my requirements', for example
a Candy Sprint washing machine with grade A wash and grade A energy consumption
for £169.99. Has about 20 programmes and a 32 minute wash, I only use 2, the 40
and 60 degree ones.

Now it only has a 1000 spin instead of a 1600, but I aint interested in paying
out lots for a machine whose spin will shave 10 minutes off manual drying time
and knacker the bearings.

Also spares are cheap.

Downside to the machine, the bearings cant be easily replaced but I can live
with that knowing that it is less than half the price of some other classier
better build machines.

I've had a Miele washing machine for about 12 years. It came with a 5
year warranty - they now do 10. It has been in daily use at least
once a day, usually more all that time and has never skipped a beat.
All servicing can be done from the front, which is good because it is
seriously heavy of itself and has one of their tumble dryers stacked
on the top. Condition is still pristine.




Dishwasher, lowest model Bosch which cost £200, only has two main wash
programmes instead of 20, does not have dinner plate warming, countdown timer,
LED display, water quality sensors, audible alarms, delay timer or silver
finish but does have the only 2 programmes that I would use anyway, standard
and economy with a grade A wash and Grade B energy.

Miele dishwasher has 7 main programs including a top section only. We
use about half of them and the half load is useful. It's among the
quietest machines on the market.

I warm dinner plates in the Aga.


Beko 11.3 Cu. Ft. Frost Free Fridge Freezer, £240, Grade B energy, does not
have antibacterial coatings, LED readouts, built in radio or teasmaid but does
keep my food frozen at -18 and my food rerigerated at 7' C.

Liebherr freezer and Maytag fridge freezer.

I deliberately avoid things with antibacterial coatings.

I have other domestic appliances to make the tea.....



All 3 appliances paid for on Barclaycard and have a 2 year warranty, washing
machine is now 3 years old and Fridge Freezer and Dishwasher 15 months, so far
so good.

When it comes to energy considerations the difference between a B and an A is
not so great as to justify me spending more than about £50 more on a Freezer.

The main thing I do is to research a new purchase to try and make sure it does
not have a bad reputation before I buy it as then I am at least in with a
fighting chance of it lasting and doing the job I want it to.

Ultimately buying an appliance is a personal choice and it looks like we both
go completely different ways about it, You obviously like, need and use digital
displays, alarms, timers, aquajets, radio's and anti-bacterial coatings on your
appliances and I dont need these frills.

Not really. I look for quality and reliability first, then
reputation and features.

Then I strike a very hard bargain on price.





Good luck to both of us I say.

John.


..andy

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"P and H Macguire" wrote in message
...
Our 22 year-old Electrolux fridge/freezer is beginning to rust! and also I
suspect it's costing a lot more to run than modern ones, so we're
replacing
it.

My question is, does anyone have strong views for or against frost-free
machines?

Also, as we're looking at Bosch or Siemens, do people think the up-market
makes are worth the difference?


I bought a Bosch frost-free fridge/freezer last year and am very pleased
with it. Definitely would not go back to one that you have to defrost.
It digitally displays the temperatures of both the fridge and the freezer
which incidentally never change from -18 and 04. I'm sure they should rise
when the doors are open. If the freezer door is left open, it beeps at you
to let you know.

It is basically very quiet, but makes a few funny noises now and again but
they are not annoying.

The biggest problem I found when choosing a new fridge/freezer was getting
both comparments to the size I wanted. So I ended up with a 6ft tall model.
The door shelves are not too bad when you compare them with other makes and
are reasonably well made. It comes with a few extras like a hanging bottle
rack which I instantly took out.

One thing I have really noticed is how much better it stores salad items.
My old f/f they did not keep well. In this f/f lettuce stays crisp for more
than a week.

In this thread, disappearing ice-cubes was mentioned. I just replace them
every couple of weeks if they haven't been used. I haven't tried it, but
have thought they could probably be transferred to a bag and sealed.

Anyway I have no regrets on my decision, and would definitely recommend a
Bosch.