On 01/08/2019 22:25, Martin Brown wrote:
On 01/08/2019 22:18, Steve Walker wrote:
On 01/08/2019 21:58, Roger Hayter wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this
is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign
saying
the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside
lane
thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the
empty inside lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting
them...Or...like in Australia where things are more sensible do I stay
in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and expect those in the
outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting down tailbacks and
making better use of the available road space ?....

The Highway Code advises the latter, but people still tend to do the
former, creating resentment and inefficiency.Â* Where road layout or long
term roadworks make lane merging necessary there tend to be notices
advising use of both lanes and merging in turn.

The trouble is that the eventual merge usually does involve one lane
merging into the other and those that have queued patiently get
annoyed that others have nipped into the mostly empty lane instead of
queuing.

It would be better if the cones were laid out to merge the two lanes
equally, promoting zip merging.

Zip merging is just about the only thing American drivers do better.

UK traffic stalls repeatedly as people refuse to let other people in.


Germans do it very well. They even have a special word for it -

Reißverschlusssystem, I believe.

Roger Hayter expressed precisely :
With sensible, responsible people they will spend no time at all trying
to prevent anyone else from doing anything. Just driving safely and
cooperating with other drivers.

With cooperation the whole of the traffic flows much more smoothly,
more quickly, more safely and with much less stress all round.
Unfortunately some don't cooperate well and others are just oblivious
of traffic situations and wade in completely blind.

NY formulated on Friday :
The delay in roadworks is often the slowing everyone to a crawl so they can
merge; once they have merged, the resulting single lane can often accelerate
again and move through the roadworks at a sensible speed for the proximity of
the workmen, rather then at a crawl. I wonder whether queues would be as bad
if traffic all merged early, without needing to slow to a zip-merge speed.

No it would not help. Once both lanes are into one lane at the official
merge point, individual vehicles will do twice the speed because the
speed before had been shared equally between the two lanes.

Ian Jackson explained :
As I've said, there are times when it is lot better if drivers merge early,
and try to maintain the maximum possible safe/legal speed.

I disagree, an orderly merge done with good cooperation at the actual
pinch point maximises the road capacity, whilst still getting the
maximum number of vehicles through. No one can easily take advantage,
if both lanes are fully occupied to around the same level, the merge
flows smoothly, everyone gets there proper turn, no timid drivers are
disadvantaged.

On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 18:31:50 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.
wrote:

Roger Hayter expressed precisely :
With sensible, responsible people they will spend no time at all trying
to prevent anyone else from doing anything. Just driving safely and
cooperating with other drivers.

With cooperation the whole of the traffic flows much more smoothly,
more quickly, more safely and with much less stress all round.

Agreed.

Unfortunately some don't cooperate well and others are just oblivious
of traffic situations and wade in completely blind.

Correct, either out of ignorance, inability or arrogance. I can (and
do) generally compensate for / forgive the first two.

But you only have to see how some people park to understand all of
them.

In a restricted bay (ignorance of the signs / clues).

Across two bays at an angle (inability to park straight).

All of the above + up on the grass right outside, on the double
yellows, across someone's drive, stopping the wrong way round at night
and leaving the super bright headlights on, 'dipped' into your face,
outside your house with their loud exhaust / music on late at night
etc etc.

It's often (but not restricted to etc), a particular range of vehicle
brands.

Cheers, T i m

On 02/08/2019 13:35, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 10:30:32 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.
wrote:

snip

Sometimes, you get the heavies driving side by side co-operating to
force a zip merge.

I've seen an instance of that round here on a dual carriageway where
the right lane was closed ahead and a car went up onto the grass
central reservation with two wheels to overtake the lorry (who was
doing said 'sleazy advantage' moderation).

Cheers, T i m


Its actually called obstruction and is illegal.

They only do it to gain advantage themselves.

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Ian Jackson explained :
As I've said, there are times when it is lot better if drivers merge early,
and try to maintain the maximum possible safe/legal speed.

I disagree, an orderly merge done with good cooperation at the actual
pinch point maximises the road capacity, whilst still getting the
maximum number of vehicles through. No one can easily take advantage,
if both lanes are fully occupied to around the same level, the merge
flows smoothly, everyone gets there proper turn, no timid drivers are
disadvantaged.

On the Island of Jersey there is a pointb where two main roads join. There
is a sign "Merge in Turn". It seems to work

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In message , Harry Bloomfield
writes
NY has brought this to us :
Any fool can make zip merging safe, but it takes *skill* to make it
work without imposing a very severe bottleneck on traffic flow, when
with a bit of advance warning, everyone can get into one lane without
having to slow down much and then the single stream can keep moving
through the roadworks.

That just moves the merge point further back and reduces the capacity
of the road to store waiting vehicles. Merging just in time allows more
vehicles to be in the queue, when a queue forms.

I don't like queues, do you? When the traffic merges well before it
absolutely has to, there's a far better chance of it being able to
maintain speed, and no queue forms. If left until it has to merge, there
is more chance a bottleneck occurring, and everything grinding to a
halt. And as I said, I don't like queues!
--
Ian

In message , T i m
writes



Good drivers seem to understand other good drivers (good as in
communication, not necessarily following the letter of the HC etc).

While I'm really not saying "I know better", there are many situations
where the HC information is essentially the 'lowest common denominator',
and it doesn't necessarily tell you the best way to drive. Very
occasionally, the information is questionable - or even wrong.
--
Ian

On 02/08/2019 17:27, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 14:14:16 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Harry wrote:

laid this down on his screen :
Zip at point of closure is dangerous to the point of stupid unless at a
crawl, that's why people don't do it. It might appear to maximise traffic
flow, but since this zipping process does not operate perfectly, if you're
not crawling it results in collisions.

Those self important, unco-operative types, who race down the empty
lane, cause the collisions.

The uncooperative types are the ones who merge too soon, then worry
about others gaining an advantage over them.

Only uncooperative to your interpretation of the rules?

If they merge when or soon after the first warning tells them, THEY
are doing the right thing.



Those in the full lane, will be distracted
spending lots of time watching their mirrors for those trying to beat
the queue, trying to prevent them pushing in.

With sensible, responsible people they will spend no time at all trying
to prevent anyone else from doing anything. Just driving safely and
cooperating with other drivers.

Except 'welcome to the real world'. ;-(

Once you have spent any journeys effectively going backwards because
some selfish cnuts thinks it's 'perfectly ok' to push in front of you,
you will soon get the idea. I have seen people driving off a motorway
in a hold up and straight back down onto it again (and forcing their
way in), meaning I go backwards another cars length. Try that in a
Cinema or McDonalds queue and see how far you get.

With an orderly zip, you
can relax concentrate on what is happening ahead and relax.

A steady speed merge can work perfectly. The merge point should should
move back as speed increases and move nearer the obstruction as speed
falls. All it needs for a steady flow, is each to position themselves
alongside a gap in the adjacent lane, then gradually move into the gap.

Unless there is a queue the whole problem will not arise,

Except when people under / overtake those happily merging to then try
to increase the restriction throughput to Max+1 and then it all
starts to snarl up.

as there will
be no slow traffic for people conscientiously trying to use both lanes
to overtake.

Because in many cases those still trying to under / overtake right up
to the restriction will *also* be speeding. If I have dropped back
from 70 to 50 because it tells me there is a lane closed ahead, no one
should be able to under/overtake me?

Or those going slightly more slowly if there is no queue
will respect the right of others to drive faster and overtake, without
any dog in the manger attitudes.

See above. Ignoring 'mimzers' which we all hate, 'most people' will be
still going at whatever the speed limit is for that restriction. It's
those who don't obey the limits, or the HC, or how to behave on the
public highway (cinema queue) who are causing all the trouble.

Just as those who don't 'get on with it' at lights / junctions that
are known to only give you a few seconds or people turning right from
a straight on only lane who then pull into the space you would have
occupied, had they not sped / undertaken you to get there.

It's all fair in love and war, till you get the ticket for causing an
obstruction / stopping on a yellow box etc.

I have no issue with those simply making a mistake, I've done so
myself at an unknown junction where a lane is left turn only and you
have to politely sneak back in (match the speed of the existing
traffic, indicate, make eye contact, thank them etc), but that's not
what an arrogant minority are doing.


I go around a roundabout near here to skip the jam in the inside
lane...the outside lane is always clear and I have right of way into the
inside lane coming off the roundabout....fly or what ? ....and perfectly
legal ?????

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 19:13:10 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 02/08/2019 13:35, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 10:30:32 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.
wrote:

snip

Sometimes, you get the heavies driving side by side co-operating to
force a zip merge.

I've seen an instance of that round here on a dual carriageway where
the right lane was closed ahead and a car went up onto the grass
central reservation with two wheels to overtake the lorry (who was
doing said 'sleazy advantage' moderation).

Cheers, T i m


Its actually called obstruction and is illegal.

What, what the lorry did re 'protecting' the diminishing lane from the
**** takers?

They only do it to gain advantage themselves.

The people illegally driving on the central reservation, yes, agreed.

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 20:20:11 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , Harry Bloomfield
writes
NY has brought this to us :
Any fool can make zip merging safe, but it takes *skill* to make it
work without imposing a very severe bottleneck on traffic flow, when
with a bit of advance warning, everyone can get into one lane without
having to slow down much and then the single stream can keep moving
through the roadworks.

That just moves the merge point further back and reduces the capacity
of the road to store waiting vehicles. Merging just in time allows more
vehicles to be in the queue, when a queue forms.

I don't like queues, do you? When the traffic merges well before it
absolutely has to, there's a far better chance of it being able to
maintain speed, and no queue forms. If left until it has to merge, there
is more chance a bottleneck occurring, and everything grinding to a
halt. And as I said, I don't like queues!

Exactly.

I bet the same people voted for Brexit and don't realise they are the
cause of the queues themselves. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

In message , Jim GM4DHJ ...
writes
On 02/08/2019 17:27, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 14:14:16 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Harry wrote:

laid this down on his screen :
Zip at point of closure is dangerous to the point of stupid unless at a
crawl, that's why people don't do it. It might appear to maximise traffic
flow, but since this zipping process does not operate perfectly, if you're
not crawling it results in collisions.

Those self important, unco-operative types, who race down the empty
lane, cause the collisions.

The uncooperative types are the ones who merge too soon, then worry
about others gaining an advantage over them.
Only uncooperative to your interpretation of the rules?
If they merge when or soon after the first warning tells them, THEY
are doing the right thing.



Those in the full lane, will be distracted
spending lots of time watching their mirrors for those trying to beat
the queue, trying to prevent them pushing in.

With sensible, responsible people they will spend no time at all trying
to prevent anyone else from doing anything. Just driving safely and
cooperating with other drivers.
Except 'welcome to the real world'. ;-(
Once you have spent any journeys effectively going backwards because
some selfish cnuts thinks it's 'perfectly ok' to push in front of you,
you will soon get the idea. I have seen people driving off a motorway
in a hold up and straight back down onto it again (and forcing their
way in), meaning I go backwards another cars length. Try that in a
Cinema or McDonalds queue and see how far you get.

With an orderly zip, you
can relax concentrate on what is happening ahead and relax.

A steady speed merge can work perfectly. The merge point should should
move back as speed increases and move nearer the obstruction as speed
falls. All it needs for a steady flow, is each to position themselves
alongside a gap in the adjacent lane, then gradually move into the gap.

Unless there is a queue the whole problem will not arise,
Except when people under / overtake those happily merging to then
try
to increase the restriction throughput to Max+1 and then it all
starts to snarl up.

as there will
be no slow traffic for people conscientiously trying to use both lanes
to overtake.
Because in many cases those still trying to under / overtake right
up
to the restriction will *also* be speeding. If I have dropped back
from 70 to 50 because it tells me there is a lane closed ahead, no one
should be able to under/overtake me?

Or those going slightly more slowly if there is no queue
will respect the right of others to drive faster and overtake, without
any dog in the manger attitudes.
See above. Ignoring 'mimzers' which we all hate, 'most people' will
be
still going at whatever the speed limit is for that restriction. It's
those who don't obey the limits, or the HC, or how to behave on the
public highway (cinema queue) who are causing all the trouble.
Just as those who don't 'get on with it' at lights / junctions that
are known to only give you a few seconds or people turning right from
a straight on only lane who then pull into the space you would have
occupied, had they not sped / undertaken you to get there.
It's all fair in love and war, till you get the ticket for causing
an
obstruction / stopping on a yellow box etc.
I have no issue with those simply making a mistake, I've done so
myself at an unknown junction where a lane is left turn only and you
have to politely sneak back in (match the speed of the existing
traffic, indicate, make eye contact, thank them etc), but that's not
what an arrogant minority are doing.


I go around a roundabout near here to skip the jam in the inside
lane...the outside lane is always clear and I have right of way

On the roads, the idea of 'Right Of Way' does not exist. NO one has
'Right Of Way'.

into the inside lane coming off the roundabout.

If you're changing lanes, you don't even have PRIORITY.

...fly or what ?

Only if you're not screwing up other traffic - otherwise try 'foolish'.

....and perfectly legal ?????

Only, if by doing so, you are not driving dangerously, or without due
care and attention.



--
Ian

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 20:30:40 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , T i m
writes



Good drivers seem to understand other good drivers (good as in
communication, not necessarily following the letter of the HC etc).

While I'm really not saying "I know better",

No, quite, nor was I. Just that it's very difficult not be better than
many drivers out there for all sorts of reasons. ;-)

there are many situations
where the HC information is essentially the 'lowest common denominator',
and it doesn't necessarily tell you the best way to drive.

True.

Very
occasionally, the information is questionable - or even wrong.

I'm sure you are right.

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 20:51:07 +0100, "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

snip

I have no issue with those simply making a mistake, I've done so
myself at an unknown junction where a lane is left turn only and you
have to politely sneak back in (match the speed of the existing
traffic, indicate, make eye contact, thank them etc), but that's not
what an arrogant minority are doing.


I go around a roundabout near here to skip the jam in the inside
lane...the outside lane is always clear and I have right of way into the
inside lane coming off the roundabout....fly or what ? ....and perfectly
legal ?????

Are you going left or straight on at that roundabout?

Cheers, T i m

On 02/08/2019 21:07, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Jim GM4DHJ ...
writes
On 02/08/2019 17:27, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 14:14:16 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Harry wrote:

laid this down on his screen :
Zip at point of closure is dangerous to the point of stupid unless
at a
crawl, that's why people don't do it. It might appear to maximise
traffic
flow, but since this zipping process does not operate perfectly,
if you're
not crawling it results in collisions.

Those self important, unco-operative types, who race down the empty
lane, cause the collisions.

The uncooperative types are the ones who merge too soon, then worry
about others gaining an advantage over them.
Â*Only uncooperative to your interpretation of the rules?
Â*If they merge when or soon after the first warning tells them, THEY
are doing the right thing.



Those in the full lane, will be distracted
spending lots of time watching their mirrors for those trying to beat
the queue, trying to prevent them pushing in.

With sensible, responsible people they will spend no time at all trying
to prevent anyone else from doing anything.Â*Â* Just driving safely and
cooperating with other drivers.
Â*Except 'welcome to the real world'. ;-(
Â*Once you have spent any journeys effectively going backwards because
some selfish cnuts thinks it's 'perfectly ok' to push in front of you,
you will soon get the idea. I have seen people driving off a motorway
in a hold up and straight back down onto it again (and forcing their
way in), meaning I go backwards another cars length. Try that in a
Cinema or McDonalds queue and see how far you get.

With an orderly zip, you
can relax concentrate on what is happening ahead and relax.

A steady speed merge can work perfectly. The merge point should should
move back as speed increases and move nearer the obstruction as speed
falls. All it needs for a steady flow, is each to position themselves
alongside a gap in the adjacent lane, then gradually move into the
gap.

Unless there is a queue the whole problem will not arise,
Â*Except when people under / overtake those happily mergingÂ* to then try
to increase the restriction throughput to Max+1 and then it all
starts to snarl up.

as there will
be no slow traffic for people conscientiously trying to use both lanes
to overtake.
Â*Because in many cases those still trying to under / overtake right up
to the restriction will *also* be speeding. If I have dropped back
from 70 to 50 because it tells me there is a lane closed ahead, no one
should be able to under/overtake me?

Or those going slightly more slowly if there is no queue
will respect the right of others to drive faster and overtake, without
any dog in the manger attitudes.
Â*See above. Ignoring 'mimzers' which we all hate, 'most people' will be
still going at whatever the speed limit is for that restriction. It's
those who don't obey the limits, or the HC, or how to behave on the
public highway (cinema queue) who are causing all the trouble.
Â*Just as those who don't 'get on with it' at lights / junctions that
are known to only give you a few seconds or people turning right from
a straight on only lane who then pull into the space you would have
occupied, had they not sped / undertaken you to get there.
Â*It's all fair in love and war, till you get the ticket for causing an
obstruction / stopping on a yellow box etc.
Â*I have no issue with those simply making a mistake, I've done so
myself at an unknown junction where a lane is left turn only and you
have to politely sneak back in (match the speed of the existing
traffic, indicate, make eye contact, thank them etc), but that's not
what an arrogant minority are doing.


I go around a roundabout near here to skip the jam in the inside
lane...the outside lane is always clear and I have right of way

On the roads, the idea of 'Right Of Way' does not exist. NO one has
'Right Of Way'.

into the inside lane coming off the roundabout.

If you're changing lanes, you don't even have PRIORITY.

...fly or what ?

Only if you're not screwing up other traffic - otherwise try 'foolish'.

....and perfectly legal ?????

Only, if by doing so, you are not driving dangerously, or without due
care and attention.



yip

On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 18:48:07 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.
wrote:

Ian Jackson explained :
As I've said, there are times when it is lot better if drivers merge early,
and try to maintain the maximum possible safe/legal speed.

I disagree, an orderly merge done with good cooperation at the actual
pinch point maximises the road capacity, whilst still getting the
maximum number of vehicles through.

How can it? One car every two seconds at 30mph v what at 0-10 mph?

No one can easily take advantage,
if both lanes are fully occupied to around the same level,

No one should take advantage if they had any level of social
responsibility.

the merge
flows smoothly,

Yes, at walking speed or start stop.

everyone gets there proper turn,

See above.

no timid drivers are
disadvantaged.

Different issue.

Cheers, T i m

On 02/08/2019 21:13, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 20:51:07 +0100, "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

snip

I have no issue with those simply making a mistake, I've done so
myself at an unknown junction where a lane is left turn only and you
have to politely sneak back in (match the speed of the existing
traffic, indicate, make eye contact, thank them etc), but that's not
what an arrogant minority are doing.


I go around a roundabout near here to skip the jam in the inside
lane...the outside lane is always clear and I have right of way into the
inside lane coming off the roundabout....fly or what ? ....and perfectly
legal ?????

Are you going left or straight on at that roundabout?

Cheers, T i m

straight ahead in the second but inside lane marked for doing so
....sorry a77 south........

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 21:24:17 +0100, "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

snip

....and perfectly legal ?????

Only, if by doing so, you are not driving dangerously, or without due
care and attention.



yip

So if 'perfectly legal' (and you might not be the person who will
finally judge that), why doesn't everyone do it, removing your
'special' advantage? You can't be the brightest person on there at any
time?

Round here there is a short dual carriageway leading up to a smallish
roundabout and I have observed several accidents where people have
approached the roundabout in the outside lane, gone round the inside
of the roundabout 90 degrees to exit left (their second exit) and been
scooped up by people intending to go straight on from the same entry
point (and they are correct).

Left lane for turning left or going straight on.
Right lane for going straight on or turning right.
Anything else and you are an accident waiting to happen.

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 21:27:05 +0100, "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

snip

straight ahead in the second but inside lane marked for doing so
...sorry a77 south........



So if it's legit it's not really 'fly' is it?

Are you sure all the others aren't queuing to go elsewhere?

Cheers, T i m

charles explained on 02/08/2019 :
On the Island of Jersey there is a pointb where two main roads join. There
is a sign "Merge in Turn". It seems to work

Perhaps its the sign that makes the difference. That dual carriageway
in Halifax has such a sign too.

Ian Jackson presented the following explanation :
I don't like queues, do you?

No, but I can cope with them without becoming too upset.

When the traffic merges well before it
absolutely has to, there's a far better chance of it being able to maintain
speed, and no queue forms. If left until it has to merge, there is more
chance a bottleneck occurring, and everything grinding to a halt. And as I
said, I don't like queues!

The merge happens at full speed with a little cooperation and everyone
behaving at the point where it has to merge.

If everyone merges early, it is too much of a temptation for someone to
not go steaming down the outside lane, to bully there way in. That
causes things to grind to a halt, whilst extra space is made for the
intruder.

Ian Jackson explained on 02/08/2019 :
While I'm really not saying "I know better", there are many situations where
the HC information is essentially the 'lowest common denominator', and it
doesn't necessarily tell you the best way to drive. Very occasionally, the
information is questionable - or even wrong.

I agree with that!

On 02/08/2019 21:42, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 21:27:05 +0100, "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

snip

straight ahead in the second but inside lane marked for doing so
...sorry a77 south........



So if it's legit it's not really 'fly' is it?

Are you sure all the others aren't queuing to go elsewhere?

Cheers, T i m

no they q to go left ot straight on .....

On 02/08/2019 21:58, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 02/08/2019 21:42, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 21:27:05 +0100, "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

snip

straight ahead in the second but inside lane marked for doing so
...sorry a77 south........




So if it's legit it's not really 'fly' is it?

Are you sure all the others aren't queuing to go elsewhere?

Cheers, T i m

no they q to go left or straight on .....

the snag is if you go into the outer lane to go straight on you meet
this coming off the roundabout....just what we have been talking about! ...

On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 21:52:12 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.
wrote:

Ian Jackson presented the following explanation :
I don't like queues, do you?

No, but I can cope with them without becoming too upset.

When the traffic merges well before it
absolutely has to, there's a far better chance of it being able to maintain
speed, and no queue forms. If left until it has to merge, there is more
chance a bottleneck occurring, and everything grinding to a halt. And as I
said, I don't like queues!

The merge happens at full speed with a little cooperation and everyone
behaving at the point where it has to merge.

Until it doesn't. Until someone misjudges it and it all ends in tears.
That's why they get you to do it far away from the problem and 'most
people' do just that.

If everyone merges early, it is too much of a temptation for someone to
not go steaming down the outside lane, to bully there way in.

Quite, but not the same issue as the merging at speed one.

That
causes things to grind to a halt, whilst extra space is made for the
intruder.

Or not ... when they are up inside some HGV who isn't going to be
bullied.

Cheers, T i m

"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
In message , NY writes


I never got the hang of 4-way-stop junctions in the US because I could
never remember what order we had arrived in

The best answer I got was "The first one there has priority to move off
first".

That's fine as long as everyone has the same perception of who was there
first. If not, two cars set off simultaneously, both back off and wait for
the other, and then they both retry at about the same time - rinse and
repeat!

and resented having to stop even if I was the only car.

The Americans seem to love having to stop unnecessarily - (which might
explain their attachment to traffic lights, and why roundabouts are still
a bit of a novelty.

I was staying with my sister who lived near Boston, and one day we went to
Cape Cod. I was driving (having got my confidence in around-town driving).
As you enter the "armpit" of the peninsular of Cape Cod, there is a big
roundabout with about six of eight roads joining - one of the very few
"rotaries" in the part of America (at least in the late 90s). I took it in
my stride, applying normal UK rules apart from doing everything as a
mirror-image, and when we stopped a bit further along the Cape, a guy came
up to me and said he'd been behind me and had been gobsmacked at the way I'd
managed to go round this "thing", changing lanes effortlessly without
missing my turning and having to go round again. He was even more gobsmacked
when he heard my English accent and realised I was driving on what, for me,
was the wrong side of the road. He made me feel slightly superhuman - I'm
not sure whether it was flattering or cringeworthy ;-)


I was interested by the differences between UK and US driving:

- All distances on signs on minor roads are measured in feet ("roadworks for
3000 feet", "restrooms - 1000 feet" etc); we're used to miles, fractions of
a mile and yards, but then Americans do like expressing things as a large
numbers of small units (eg people's weights in pounds rather than stones and
pounds)

- Painted stop/give way lines at junctions are often non-existent; if the
road you are joining is straight, it's easy enough to extrapolate the kerb
line across your road to work out where to stop, but it's bloody difficult
where there is a side road that joins on the outside of a bend

- Drivers in small towns are unbelievably benevolent to pedestrians: on
several occasions I was walking along a pavement (sorry, sidewalk) and
turned my head to look at a building on the other side of the road as I
carried on walking along the road - immediately cars would stop (not at a
pedestrian crossing) thinking I wanted to cross

- All road signs have words, though those "words" may not make sense: it
took me a long time to work out that a sign "PED XING" meant "pedestrian
crossing" (what we'd call a zebra crossing)

- Motorway/freeway/expressway junctions often have a lane-drop so if you are
in the extreme right-hand lane and you approach a junction, you need to move
to Lane 2 in advance otherwise you find yourself being taken off at the
junction; having left the through route on a slip road, there is sometimes a
VERY sharp bend (an elbow rather than a constant-radius curve) - plan to
slow down a LOT if you are coming off :-(

- A lot of speed limits end in 5: 15, 25, 35 mph

- School buses are a PITA because they drive too fast to be able to overtake
when there's oncoming traffic, but you are NOT ALLOWED to overtake them when
they are stationary and displaying their flashing red lights, because that's
when children are getting on or off: moral - if you get behind one, you are
there for the duration and must stop behind it whenever it stops

- Lane discipline on motorways etc is non-existent: they overtake equally
frequently either side: this scares the **** out of me - maybe I'm too used
to driving on British motorways where overtaking on the left is fairly rare
so you get intot he bad habit of not checking every time you move from Lane
3 to 2 or 2 to 1

- Road atlases (at least the one my sister bought of Massachusetts) are
bizar instead of having maps laid out in a regular grid in the order west
to east and then north to south, the pages are organised by "town", and each
town's map is at a different scale (WTF?) so it is very difficult to follow
your route as you go east to west or north to south because you are not
going from one page to the next one or the next+(some increment), but
instead are jumping around at random, and because of the difference in scale
and therefore level of detail, it is difficult to find any common ground
between one map and the next to work out where you are on the new map. How
many magic mushrooms do you need to eat/smoke/mainline before you come up
with the idea of a map with random page ordering (well, alphabetic by
"town") and non-uniform scale? This was before the days of satnav; nowadays
you've got satnav devices and phone apps which make paper maps almost
redundant (I still keep one in my car as a backup - but I've never needed to
use it in the last 10 years or so). ("Town" really means "small region"
rather than built-up area that ends when the housing ends - there can be
lots of small "village-type" communities which are all in the same town, so
you can't predict (and don't really care!) which "town" you are currently
in.)

On 02/08/2019 18:07, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
NY has brought this to us :
Any fool can make zip merging safe, but it takes *skill* to make it
work without imposing a very severe bottleneck on traffic flow, when
with a bit of advance warning, everyone can get into one lane without
having to slow down much and then the single stream can keep moving
through the roadworks.

That just moves the merge point further back and reduces the capacity of
the road to store waiting vehicles. Merging just in time allows more
vehicles to be in the queue, when a queue forms.

Except that you can merge when there is a gap, with little adjustment of
speed and so not slow everything down, whereas merging at the
pinch-point often means cutting into a small gap, causing those behind
to brake and the ripple effect to bring the whole road to a halt or
slowing to a stop yourself and holding up the traffic behind.

SteveW

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 22:44:25 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 02/08/2019 18:07, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
NY has brought this to us :
Any fool can make zip merging safe, but it takes *skill* to make it
work without imposing a very severe bottleneck on traffic flow, when
with a bit of advance warning, everyone can get into one lane without
having to slow down much and then the single stream can keep moving
through the roadworks.

That just moves the merge point further back and reduces the capacity of
the road to store waiting vehicles. Merging just in time allows more
vehicles to be in the queue, when a queue forms.

Except that you can merge when there is a gap, with little adjustment of
speed and so not slow everything down, whereas merging at the
pinch-point often means cutting into a small gap, causing those behind
to brake and the ripple effect

‘backward traveling wave’ ;-)

to bring the whole road to a halt or
slowing to a stop yourself and holding up the traffic behind.

Bingo. It's as if Harry has never actually driven! ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 02/08/2019 22:30, NY wrote:

- Lane discipline on motorways etc is non-existent: they overtake
equally frequently either side: this scares the **** out of me - maybe
I'm too used to driving on British motorways where overtaking on the
left is fairly rare so you get intot he bad habit of not checking every
time you move from Lane 3 to 2 or 2 to 1

And hit the car that was indicating to move from lane 1 to lane 2 and
not undertaking at all.

Nice that you admit your mistakes but doing something about it is necessary.

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 22:30:04 +0100
"NY" wrote:

- Lane discipline on motorways etc is non-existent: they overtake
equally frequently either side: this scares the **** out of me -
maybe I'm too used to driving on British motorways where overtaking
on the left is fairly rare so you get intot he bad habit of not
checking every time you move from Lane 3 to 2 or 2 to 1


I was once driving from LA to San Francisco using the freeway, with
visitors from the UK on board, and as I approached a joining road, I
saw another car on the on-ramp, so I moved out to the left lane to
give it room. But it not only joined the freeway, but kept on going
into my lane, until application of horn and severe braking woke the
driver up to the fact that other vehicles use the road as well. The
scourge of 'left-lane bandits' is common all over the country.

--
Davey.

In message , T i m
writes
On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 20:20:11 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , Harry Bloomfield
writes
NY has brought this to us :
Any fool can make zip merging safe, but it takes *skill* to make it
work without imposing a very severe bottleneck on traffic flow, when
with a bit of advance warning, everyone can get into one lane without
having to slow down much and then the single stream can keep moving
through the roadworks.

That just moves the merge point further back and reduces the capacity
of the road to store waiting vehicles. Merging just in time allows more
vehicles to be in the queue, when a queue forms.

I don't like queues, do you? When the traffic merges well before it
absolutely has to, there's a far better chance of it being able to
maintain speed, and no queue forms. If left until it has to merge, there
is more chance a bottleneck occurring, and everything grinding to a
halt. And as I said, I don't like queues!

Exactly.

I bet the same people voted for Brexit and don't realise they are the
cause of the queues themselves. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

What I would like to see are signs saying:
"Carriageways merge in 400 yards - Merge now"
followed by
"Carriageways merge in 200 yards - Merge NOW"
followed by
"Carriageways merge in 100 yards - If YOU haven't merged by now, you're
NICKED!"
--
Ian

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 07:40:45 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

snip

I bet the same people voted for Brexit and don't realise they are the
cause of the queues themselves. ;-)



What I would like to see are signs saying:
"Carriageways merge in 400 yards - Merge now"
followed by
"Carriageways merge in 200 yards - Merge NOW"
followed by
"Carriageways merge in 100 yards - If YOU haven't merged by now, you're
NICKED!"

That would be good, supported by a lane camera (like they use on bus
lanes).

Unless the fine was accompanied by points on yer licence, I suspect
many of those who abuse the system regularly (when the traffic is
moving freely) will carry on doing it and pay the fine (looking at the
cost of the cars they drive).

Cheers, T i m

In message , NY writes
"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
In message , NY writes


I never got the hang of 4-way-stop junctions in the US because I
could never remember what order we had arrived in

The best answer I got was "The first one there has priority to move
off first".

That's fine as long as everyone has the same perception of who was
there first. If not, two cars set off simultaneously, both back off and
wait for the other, and then they both retry at about the same time -
rinse and repeat!

and resented having to stop even if I was the only car.

The Americans seem to love having to stop unnecessarily - (which
might explain their attachment to traffic lights, and why roundabouts
are still a bit of a novelty.

I was staying with my sister who lived near Boston, and one day we went
to Cape Cod. I was driving (having got my confidence in around-town
driving). As you enter the "armpit" of the peninsular of Cape Cod,
there is a big roundabout with about six of eight roads joining - one
of the very few "rotaries" in the part of America (at least in the late
90s). I took it in my stride, applying normal UK rules apart from doing
everything as a mirror-image, and when we stopped a bit further along
the Cape, a guy came up to me and said he'd been behind me and had been
gobsmacked at the way I'd managed to go round this "thing", changing
lanes effortlessly without missing my turning and having to go round
again. He was even more gobsmacked when he heard my English accent and
realised I was driving on what, for me, was the wrong side of the road.
He made me feel slightly superhuman - I'm not sure whether it was
flattering or cringeworthy ;-)


I was interested by the differences between UK and US driving:

- All distances on signs on minor roads are measured in feet
("roadworks for 3000 feet", "restrooms - 1000 feet" etc); we're used to
miles, fractions of a mile and yards, but then Americans do like
expressing things as a large numbers of small units (eg people's
weights in pounds rather than stones and pounds)

- Painted stop/give way lines at junctions are often non-existent; if
the road you are joining is straight, it's easy enough to extrapolate
the kerb line across your road to work out where to stop, but it's
bloody difficult where there is a side road that joins on the outside
of a bend

- Drivers in small towns are unbelievably benevolent to pedestrians: on
several occasions I was walking along a pavement (sorry, sidewalk) and
turned my head to look at a building on the other side of the road as I
carried on walking along the road - immediately cars would stop (not at
a pedestrian crossing) thinking I wanted to cross

- All road signs have words, though those "words" may not make sense:
it took me a long time to work out that a sign "PED XING" meant
"pedestrian crossing" (what we'd call a zebra crossing)

- Motorway/freeway/expressway junctions often have a lane-drop so if
you are in the extreme right-hand lane and you approach a junction, you
need to move to Lane 2 in advance otherwise you find yourself being
taken off at the junction; having left the through route on a slip
road, there is sometimes a VERY sharp bend (an elbow rather than a
constant-radius curve) - plan to slow down a LOT if you are coming off :-(

- A lot of speed limits end in 5: 15, 25, 35 mph

- School buses are a PITA because they drive too fast to be able to
overtake when there's oncoming traffic, but you are NOT ALLOWED to
overtake them when they are stationary and displaying their flashing
red lights, because that's when children are getting on or off: moral -
if you get behind one, you are there for the duration and must stop
behind it whenever it stops

- Lane discipline on motorways etc is non-existent: they overtake
equally frequently either side: this scares the **** out of me - maybe
I'm too used to driving on British motorways where overtaking on the
left is fairly rare so you get intot he bad habit of not checking every
time you move from Lane 3 to 2 or 2 to 1

- Road atlases (at least the one my sister bought of Massachusetts) are
bizar instead of having maps laid out in a regular grid in the order
west to east and then north to south, the pages are organised by
"town", and each town's map is at a different scale (WTF?) so it is
very difficult to follow your route as you go east to west or north to
south because you are not going from one page to the next one or the
next+(some increment), but instead are jumping around at random, and
because of the difference in scale and therefore level of detail, it is
difficult to find any common ground between one map and the next to
work out where you are on the new map. How many magic mushrooms do you
need to eat/smoke/mainline before you come up with the idea of a map
with random page ordering (well, alphabetic by "town") and non-uniform
scale? This was before the days of satnav; nowadays you've got satnav
devices and phone apps which make paper maps almost redundant (I still
keep one in my car as a backup - but I've never needed to use it in the
last 10 years or so). ("Town" really means "small region" rather than
built-up area that ends when the housing ends - there can be lots of
small "village-type" communities which are all in the same town, so you
can't predict (and don't really care!) which "town" you are currently in.)

I can't disagree with any of what you say. Some of the USA is very
well-organised, but some doesn't quite seem to be 'joined up' (but I
suppose it IS a big place). I do like those speed limits that end in 5,
most of which are far more appropriate to the actual situation than our
'zeros', and are therefore more likely to be obeyed.
--
Ian

In message , Davey
writes
On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 22:30:04 +0100
"NY" wrote:

- Lane discipline on motorways etc is non-existent: they overtake
equally frequently either side: this scares the **** out of me -
maybe I'm too used to driving on British motorways where overtaking
on the left is fairly rare so you get intot he bad habit of not
checking every time you move from Lane 3 to 2 or 2 to 1


I was once driving from LA to San Francisco using the freeway, with
visitors from the UK on board, and as I approached a joining road, I
saw another car on the on-ramp, so I moved out to the left lane to
give it room. But it not only joined the freeway, but kept on going
into my lane, until application of horn and severe braking woke the
driver up to the fact that other vehicles use the road as well. The
scourge of 'left-lane bandits' is common all over the country.

That sort of thing happens in the UK too. It's not uncommon to see a car
joining a motorway, and regardless of the amount of traffic, it simply
continues diagonally across Lane 1 and Lane 2, to Lane 3.
--
Ian

In message , Jim GM4DHJ ...
writes
On 02/08/2019 21:58, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 02/08/2019 21:42, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 21:27:05 +0100, "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

snip

straight ahead in the second but inside lane marked for doing so
...sorry a77 south........


.
45t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sX643pVTIQGHPmHXCUiixoA!2e0!6s% 2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht
.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DX643pVTIQGHPmHXCUiixoA%2 6output%3Dthumbnail%26c
b_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w %3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%
3D260%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6 656

So if it's legit it's not really 'fly' is it?

Are you sure all the others aren't queuing to go elsewhere?

Cheers, T i m

no they q to go left or straight on .....

the snag is if you go into the outer lane to go straight on you meet
this coming off the roundabout....just what we have been talking about!
...


ta=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szw9uAdlbApn_bx1s0imlMw!2e0!7i16 384!8i8192

What's the problem, Jim? It looks like there's plenty of warning to get
merged with the nearside lane.
--
Ian

Steve Walker brought next idea :
whereas merging at the pinch-point often means cutting into a small gap,
causing those behind to brake and the ripple effect to bring the whole road
to a halt or slowing to a stop yourself and holding up the traffic behind.

Not if the merge is orderly and with cooperation from both lanes, which
is what you get as a result of no one being able to bypass the queue.

Early merges, leave one lane less than fully occupied and space for the
impatient to bypass the queue.

In message , Harry Bloomfield
writes
Steve Walker brought next idea :
whereas merging at the pinch-point often means cutting into a small
gap, causing those behind to brake and the ripple effect to bring the
whole road to a halt or slowing to a stop yourself and holding up the
traffic behind.

Not if the merge is orderly and with cooperation from both lanes, which
is what you get as a result of no one being able to bypass the queue.

Early merges, leave one lane less than fully occupied and space for the
impatient to bypass the queue.

What you're saying is that late, 'co-operative' mergers force the
'unco-operative' would-be queue-jumpers to 'co-operate'. Well, this is
true - but it often leads to a log-jam at the pinch-point, and that
creates tail-backs that probably would not have happened if everyone had
merged early, and (if possible) maintained speed.
--
Ian

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 07:40:45 +0100
Ian Jackson wrote:

snip


Exactly.

I bet the same people voted for Brexit and don't realise they are the
cause of the queues themselves. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

What I would like to see are signs saying:
"Carriageways merge in 400 yards - Merge now"
followed by
"Carriageways merge in 200 yards - Merge NOW"
followed by
"Carriageways merge in 100 yards - If YOU haven't merged by now,
you're NICKED!"

The original Suicide Hill on The Alaska Highway had signs on the
high-side approach, of the form:

"Change to Low Gear ahead"

"Change to Low Gear Now"

"If you are not in Low gear NOW, prepare to meet thy Maker".

I knew someone, an ex-Brit, who drove trucks along the route after the
war.

--
Davey.

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 10:44:04 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , Harry Bloomfield
writes
Steve Walker brought next idea :
whereas merging at the pinch-point often means cutting into a small
gap, causing those behind to brake and the ripple effect to bring the
whole road to a halt or slowing to a stop yourself and holding up the
traffic behind.

Not if the merge is orderly and with cooperation from both lanes, which
is what you get as a result of no one being able to bypass the queue.

Early merges, leave one lane less than fully occupied and space for the
impatient to bypass the queue.

What you're saying is that late, 'co-operative' mergers force the
'unco-operative' would-be queue-jumpers to 'co-operate'. Well, this is
true - but it often leads to a log-jam at the pinch-point, and that
creates tail-backs that probably would not have happened if everyone had
merged early, and (if possible) maintained speed.

We did this very thing earlier, merged (pretty well) *at* the
long-standing pinch point because it is generally relatively slow
moving traffic (30-40 mph), the ramp up to the point quite short and
traffic light enough for it to continue to work well.

Well, in actual fact we were on the inside and 'priority' lane and
those in the outside lane have to merge (and so 'co-operate') with us.

Today they did, in the rush hour it's yer basic zip (respected by all
but the odd van and some flash boys (typically) trying to take the p)
and a mix of effectiveness at speeds / loads in-between. The bunching
only generally occurs when people in the outside lane try to overtake
into the pinch point, where is blatantly nowhere for them to go. To
resist that (for the benefit of all, even the w&nkers, if only they
could see it), many will start to straddle the line early.

Cheers, T i m