Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this
is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign saying
the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside lane
thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the
empty inside lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting
them...Or...like in Australia where things are more sensible do I stay
in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and expect those in the
outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting down tailbacks and
making better use of the available road space ?....

On 01/08/2019 21:15, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this
is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign saying
the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside lane
thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the
empty inside lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting
them...Or...like in Australia where things are more sensible do I stay
in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and expect those in the
outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting down tailbacks and
making better use of the available road space ?....

Do you mean the big red cross on an overhead gantry, or a "conventional"
signboard on the hard shoulder? My belief is that it is illegal to go
under a red cross although obviously you might claim some lee-way for
the first one, if it only lights up as you are approaching. On the most
modern gantries I would say it would be unwise to drive under a cross
because I'd expect them to have cameras.

On 01/08/2019 21:21, newshound wrote:
On 01/08/2019 21:15, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if
this is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign
saying the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the
outside lane thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man
rushing up the empty inside lane and trying to push in even though
nobody is letting them...Or...like in Australia where things are more
sensible do I stay in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and
expect those in the outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting
down tailbacks and making better use of the available road space ?....

Do you mean the big red cross on an overhead gantry, or a "conventional"
signboard on the hard shoulder? My belief is that it is illegal to go
under a red cross although obviously you might claim some lee-way for
the first one, if it only lights up as you are approaching. On the most
modern gantries I would say it would be unwise to drive under a cross
because I'd expect them to have cameras.

no just a normal sign....I always wondered why the motorway ones said
the red x is mandatory.....I mean where can you get a shot of upper
cylinder lubricant these days......?

Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this
is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign saying
the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside lane
thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the
empty inside lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting
them...Or...like in Australia where things are more sensible do I stay
in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and expect those in the
outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting down tailbacks and
making better use of the available road space ?....

The Highway Code advises the latter, but people still tend to do the
former, creating resentment and inefficiency. Where road layout or long
term roadworks make lane merging necessary there tend to be notices
advising use of both lanes and merging in turn.


--

Roger Hayter

On 01/08/2019 21:58, Roger Hayter wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this
is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign saying
the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside lane
thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the
empty inside lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting
them...Or...like in Australia where things are more sensible do I stay
in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and expect those in the
outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting down tailbacks and
making better use of the available road space ?....

The Highway Code advises the latter, but people still tend to do the
former, creating resentment and inefficiency. Where road layout or long
term roadworks make lane merging necessary there tend to be notices
advising use of both lanes and merging in turn.

The trouble is that the eventual merge usually does involve one lane
merging into the other and those that have queued patiently get annoyed
that others have nipped into the mostly empty lane instead of queuing.

It would be better if the cones were laid out to merge the two lanes
equally, promoting zip merging.

SteveW

On 01/08/2019 22:18, Steve Walker wrote:
On 01/08/2019 21:58, Roger Hayter wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this
is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign saying
the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside lane
thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the
empty inside lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting
them...Or...like in Australia where things are more sensible do I stay
in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and expect those in the
outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting down tailbacks and
making better use of the available road space ?....

The Highway Code advises the latter, but people still tend to do the
former, creating resentment and inefficiency.Â* Where road layout or long
term roadworks make lane merging necessary there tend to be notices
advising use of both lanes and merging in turn.

The trouble is that the eventual merge usually does involve one lane
merging into the other and those that have queued patiently get annoyed
that others have nipped into the mostly empty lane instead of queuing.

It would be better if the cones were laid out to merge the two lanes
equally, promoting zip merging.

Zip merging is just about the only thing American drivers do better.

UK traffic stalls repeatedly as people refuse to let other people in.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In message , Martin Brown
writes
On 01/08/2019 22:18, Steve Walker wrote:
On 01/08/2019 21:58, Roger Hayter wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this
is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign saying
the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside lane
thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the
empty inside lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting
them...Or...like in Australia where things are more sensible do I stay
in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and expect those in the
outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting down tailbacks and
making better use of the available road space ?....

The Highway Code advises the latter, but people still tend to do the
former, creating resentment and inefficiency.* Where road layout or long
term roadworks make lane merging necessary there tend to be notices
advising use of both lanes and merging in turn.
The trouble is that the eventual merge usually does involve one lane
merging into the other and those that have queued patiently get
annoyed that others have nipped into the mostly empty lane instead of
queuing.
It would be better if the cones were laid out to merge the two lanes
equally, promoting zip merging.

Zip merging is just about the only thing American drivers do better.

UK traffic stalls repeatedly as people refuse to let other people in.

The problem that drivers have with merging is that they slow down.
Congestion is least when they zip merge in plenty of time - and if this
doesn't result in vehicle separation becoming too close, they maintain
speed (or, if possible, even speed up). In practice, there's always some
silly bugger who tries to zoom up the lane which is closing (passing as
many as possible) - and then, at the last moment, force their way into
the already merged traffic.
--
Ian

Ian Jackson wrote:

In message , Martin Brown
writes
On 01/08/2019 22:18, Steve Walker wrote:
On 01/08/2019 21:58, Roger Hayter wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this
is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign saying
the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside lane
thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the
empty inside lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting
them...Or...like in Australia where things are more sensible do I stay
in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and expect those in the
outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting down tailbacks and
making better use of the available road space ?....

The Highway Code advises the latter, but people still tend to do the
former, creating resentment and inefficiency. Where road layout or long
term roadworks make lane merging necessary there tend to be notices
advising use of both lanes and merging in turn.
The trouble is that the eventual merge usually does involve one lane
merging into the other and those that have queued patiently get
annoyed that others have nipped into the mostly empty lane instead of
queuing.
It would be better if the cones were laid out to merge the two lanes
equally, promoting zip merging.

Zip merging is just about the only thing American drivers do better.

UK traffic stalls repeatedly as people refuse to let other people in.

The problem that drivers have with merging is that they slow down.
Congestion is least when they zip merge in plenty of time - and if this
doesn't result in vehicle separation becoming too close, they maintain
speed (or, if possible, even speed up). In practice, there's always some
silly bugger who tries to zoom up the lane which is closing (passing as
many as possible) - and then, at the last moment, force their way into
the already merged traffic.

I'm afraid I disagree. If there is so little traffic that speed can be
maintained after the merge then probably it doesn't matter either way,
but in slowing traffic it is best to make use of all the road by not
"panic" merging in advance but leaving it until the roads merge. This
also avoids the problem of resenting those who don't panic merge.
--

Roger Hayter

On 01/08/2019 22:25, Martin Brown wrote:
On 01/08/2019 22:18, Steve Walker wrote:
On 01/08/2019 21:58, Roger Hayter wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this
is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign
saying
the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside
lane
thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the
empty inside lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting
them...Or...like in Australia where things are more sensible do I stay
in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and expect those in the
outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting down tailbacks and
making better use of the available road space ?....

The Highway Code advises the latter, but people still tend to do the
former, creating resentment and inefficiency.Â* Where road layout or long
term roadworks make lane merging necessary there tend to be notices
advising use of both lanes and merging in turn.

The trouble is that the eventual merge usually does involve one lane
merging into the other and those that have queued patiently get
annoyed that others have nipped into the mostly empty lane instead of
queuing.

It would be better if the cones were laid out to merge the two lanes
equally, promoting zip merging.

Zip merging is just about the only thing American drivers do better.

UK traffic stalls repeatedly as people refuse to let other people in.


Germans do it very well. They even have a special word for it -

Reißverschlusssystem, I believe.

On 02/08/2019 10:29, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 01 Aug 2019 22:25:24 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:

On 01/08/2019 22:18, Steve Walker wrote:
On 01/08/2019 21:58, Roger Hayter wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if
this is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a
sign saying the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into
the outside lane thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly
man rushing up the empty inside lane and trying to push in even
though nobody is letting them...Or...like in Australia where things
are more sensible do I stay in the inside lane right up to the closed
lane and expect those in the outside lane instigate the zip effect
thus cutting down tailbacks and making better use of the available
road space ?....

The Highway Code advises the latter, but people still tend to do the
former, creating resentment and inefficiency.Â* Where road layout or
long term roadworks make lane merging necessary there tend to be
notices advising use of both lanes and merging in turn.

The trouble is that the eventual merge usually does involve one lane
merging into the other and those that have queued patiently get annoyed
that others have nipped into the mostly empty lane instead of queuing.

It would be better if the cones were laid out to merge the two lanes
equally, promoting zip merging.

Zip merging is just about the only thing American drivers do better.

UK traffic stalls repeatedly as people refuse to let other people in.

It can be OK where it's a fixed part of the road. There's one road near
(going uphill) where cars seem to know to merge in turn. Occasionally
you'll get a **** straddling the lane thinking they're clever. And I will
die happy having once see a car do that with a police car up it's back,
and get pulled over

We do roundabouts better though

Actually, straddling the lane as you get closer to the merge point is a
good way to deter the queue jumpers. I totally agree with using both
lanes where appropriate, but it does all depend on traffic density. We
have a good example inside our local tip, where there are huge signs
saying Use Both Lanes to try to stop traffic tailing back out on to the
access road when it is busy, but most people stick in the right hand
lane. That is one place where I take some pleasure in passing ten cars
"ahead" of me.

On 02/08/2019 13:02, newshound wrote:
On 02/08/2019 10:29, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 01 Aug 2019 22:25:24 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:

On 01/08/2019 22:18, Steve Walker wrote:
On 01/08/2019 21:58, Roger Hayter wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if
this is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a
sign saying the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into
the outside lane thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly
man rushing up the empty inside lane and trying to push in even
though nobody is letting them...Or...like in Australia where things
are more sensible do I stay in the inside lane right up to the closed
lane and expect those in the outside lane instigate the zip effect
thus cutting down tailbacks and making better use of the available
road space ?....

The Highway Code advises the latter, but people still tend to do the
former, creating resentment and inefficiency.Â* Where road layout or
long term roadworks make lane merging necessary there tend to be
notices advising use of both lanes and merging in turn.

The trouble is that the eventual merge usually does involve one lane
merging into the other and those that have queued patiently get annoyed
that others have nipped into the mostly empty lane instead of queuing.

It would be better if the cones were laid out to merge the two lanes
equally, promoting zip merging.

Zip merging is just about the only thing American drivers do better.

UK traffic stalls repeatedly as people refuse to let other people in.

It can be OK where it's a fixed part of the road. There's one road near
(going uphill) where cars seem to know to merge in turn. Occasionally
you'll get a **** straddling the lane thinking they're clever. And I will
die happy having once see a car do that with a police car up it's back,
and get pulled over

We do roundabouts better though

Actually, straddling the lane as you get closer to the merge point is a
good way to deter the queue jumpers. I totally agree with using both
lanes where appropriate, but it does all depend on traffic density. We
have a good example inside our local tip, where there are huge signs
saying Use Both Lanes to try to stop traffic tailing back out on to the
access road when it is busy, but most people stick in the right hand
lane. That is one place where I take some pleasure in passing ten cars
"ahead" of me.
good man...one must follow instructions...

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 13:02:35 +0100, newshound
wrote:

snip

Actually, straddling the lane as you get closer to the merge point is a
good way to deter the queue jumpers.

Agreed. It generally only has to be by a bit (other than for the most
extreme of them), just enough to not make it easy to jump the entire
queue (especially if you are still moving at a reasonable speed)?

But then I've seen cars (even, not just motorbikes / scooters) go down
the outside of a queue of single file traffic, round the wrong side of
a bollard / island, over the crosshatching's to get to the few feet of
twin lane at the traffic lights. Like everyone waiting to turn right
didn't think of doing the same but preferred to obey the rules and
respect other drivers.

And then when you do get to the lights yourself, you don't make it by
one (their) car. ;-(

If only I drove a grab lorry ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Steve Walker wrote:

On 01/08/2019 21:58, Roger Hayter wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this
is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign saying
the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside lane
thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the
empty inside lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting
them...Or...like in Australia where things are more sensible do I stay
in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and expect those in the
outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting down tailbacks and
making better use of the available road space ?....

The Highway Code advises the latter, but people still tend to do the
former, creating resentment and inefficiency. Where road layout or long
term roadworks make lane merging necessary there tend to be notices
advising use of both lanes and merging in turn.

The trouble is that the eventual merge usually does involve one lane
merging into the other and those that have queued patiently get annoyed
that others have nipped into the mostly empty lane instead of queuing.

The solution to that is for both lanes to be used equally, so new
arrivals have no significant advantage to using either lane. This is
what the notices usually advise.



It would be better if the cones were laid out to merge the two lanes
equally, promoting zip merging.

SteveW


--

Roger Hayter

"Roger Hayter" wrote in message
...
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this
is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign saying
the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside lane
thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the
empty inside lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting
them...Or...like in Australia where things are more sensible do I stay
in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and expect those in the
outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting down tailbacks and
making better use of the available road space ?....

The Highway Code advises the latter, but people still tend to do the
former, creating resentment and inefficiency. Where road layout or long
term roadworks make lane merging necessary there tend to be notices
advising use of both lanes and merging in turn.

I *prefer* to merge early, while everyone is still moving at a reasonable
speed and there are still gaps appropriate for that speed that you can slot
into. If you have to merge in turn, that tends to imply both lanes have to
slow to a crawl to make it safe to do, since it requires coordination
between alternate drivers.

The delay in roadworks is often the slowing everyone to a crawl so they can
merge; once they have merged, the resulting single lane can often accelerate
again and move through the roadworks at a sensible speed for the proximity
of the workmen, rather then at a crawl. I wonder whether queues would be as
bad if traffic all merged early, without needing to slow to a zip-merge
speed.

On 02/08/2019 09:43, NY wrote:
"Roger Hayter" wrote in message
...
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this
is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign saying
the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside lane
thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the
empty inside lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting
them...Or...like in Australia where things are more sensible do I stay
in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and expect those in the
outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting down tailbacks and
making better use of the available road space ?....

The Highway Code advises the latter, but people still tend to do the
former, creating resentment and inefficiency.* Where road layout or long
term roadworks make lane merging necessary there tend to be notices
advising use of both lanes and merging in turn.

I *prefer* to merge early, while everyone is still moving at a
reasonable speed and there are still gaps appropriate for that speed
that you can slot into. If you have to merge in turn, that tends to
imply both lanes have to slow to a crawl to make it safe to do, since it
requires coordination between alternate drivers.

The delay in roadworks is often the slowing everyone to a crawl so they
can merge; once they have merged, the resulting single lane can often
accelerate again and move through the roadworks at a sensible speed for
the proximity of the workmen, rather then at a crawl. I wonder whether
queues would be as bad if traffic all merged early, without needing to
slow to a zip-merge speed.

very true it depends on the circumstances I think .....

In message , Jim GM4DHJ ...
writes
On 02/08/2019 09:43, NY wrote:
"Roger Hayter" wrote in message
.. .
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this
is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign saying
the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside lane
thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the
empty inside lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting
them...Or...like in Australia where things are more sensible do I stay
in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and expect those in the
outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting down tailbacks and
making better use of the available road space ?....

The Highway Code advises the latter, but people still tend to do the
former, creating resentment and inefficiency.* Where road layout or long
term roadworks make lane merging necessary there tend to be notices
advising use of both lanes and merging in turn.
I *prefer* to merge early, while everyone is still moving at a
reasonable speed and there are still gaps appropriate for that speed
that you can slot into. If you have to merge in turn, that tends to
imply both lanes have to slow to a crawl to make it safe to do, since
it requires coordination between alternate drivers.
The delay in roadworks is often the slowing everyone to a crawl so
they can merge; once they have merged, the resulting single lane can
often accelerate again and move through the roadworks at a sensible
speed for the proximity of the workmen, rather then at a crawl. I
wonder whether queues would be as bad if traffic all merged early,
without needing to slow to a zip-merge speed.

very true it depends on the circumstances I think .....

As I've said, there are times when it is lot better if drivers merge
early, and try to maintain the maximum possible safe/legal speed.

In my experience, when there's a 5-mile tailback before the point of
merger, it's usually caused by sillybuggers trying to steal a march on
the 'lesser mortals', and trying to merge in the last possible
microsecond (which also often leads to a prang, making things worse).
--
Ian

Ian Jackson explained :
As I've said, there are times when it is lot better if drivers merge early,
and try to maintain the maximum possible safe/legal speed.

I disagree, an orderly merge done with good cooperation at the actual
pinch point maximises the road capacity, whilst still getting the
maximum number of vehicles through. No one can easily take advantage,
if both lanes are fully occupied to around the same level, the merge
flows smoothly, everyone gets there proper turn, no timid drivers are
disadvantaged.

NY formulated on Friday :
The delay in roadworks is often the slowing everyone to a crawl so they can
merge; once they have merged, the resulting single lane can often accelerate
again and move through the roadworks at a sensible speed for the proximity of
the workmen, rather then at a crawl. I wonder whether queues would be as bad
if traffic all merged early, without needing to slow to a zip-merge speed.

No it would not help. Once both lanes are into one lane at the official
merge point, individual vehicles will do twice the speed because the
speed before had been shared equally between the two lanes.

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 21:15:54 +0100, "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this
is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign saying
the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside lane
thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the
empty inside lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting
them...Or...like in Australia where things are more sensible do I stay
in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and expect those in the
outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting down tailbacks and
making better use of the available road space ?....

You shouldn't be in the outside lane of a dual carriageway unless you
were overtaking slower cars in the inside lane.

'Merging in turn is recommended but only if safe and appropriate when
vehicles are traveling at a very low speed, e.g. when approaching road
works or a road traffic incident. It is not recommended at high
speed.'

The chances are there would be a speed restriction before the closed
lane.

So, if traffic throughput was less than the slower limit then all cars
would move out of the closed lane at the first warning sign and all go
though the restriction with no issue.

'You should follow the signs and road markings and get into the lane
as directed.'

If the throughput was temporarily more than the restriction could
carry unhindered then a buildup would start and depending on the
environment, traffic would either just queue in the open lane (given
an open road leading up to the restriction) or, if said (short even)
queue cause some other issue (spilling onto the exit of a roundabout)
then you might slowly use the inside lane to clear the problem and
slowly merge with the outside lane.

'In congested road conditions do not change lanes unnecessarily.'

If the throughput was persistently more than the restriction allowed
then you would probably make use of both lanes equally.

Making the call when however can be difficult to judge.

https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/mult...iageways.html#

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 21:15:54 +0100, "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this
is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign saying
the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside lane
thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the
empty inside lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting
them...Or...like in Australia where things are more sensible do I stay
in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and expect those in the
outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting down tailbacks and
making better use of the available road space ?....

You shouldn't be in the outside lane of a dual carriageway unless you
were overtaking slower cars in the inside lane.

'Merging in turn is recommended but only if safe and appropriate when
vehicles are traveling at a very low speed, e.g. when approaching road
works or a road traffic incident. It is not recommended at high
speed.'

We have two instances here one where a dotted line continues to the end
and the left have no rights and one where the dotted line finishes early
where each take turns (zippers)

The chances are there would be a speed restriction before the closed
lane.

So, if traffic throughput was less than the slower limit then all cars
would move out of the closed lane at the first warning sign and all go
though the restriction with no issue.

'You should follow the signs and road markings and get into the lane
as directed.'

If the throughput was temporarily more than the restriction could
carry unhindered then a buildup would start and depending on the
environment, traffic would either just queue in the open lane (given
an open road leading up to the restriction) or, if said (short even)
queue cause some other issue (spilling onto the exit of a roundabout)
then you might slowly use the inside lane to clear the problem and
slowly merge with the outside lane.

'In congested road conditions do not change lanes unnecessarily.'

If the throughput was persistently more than the restriction allowed
then you would probably make use of both lanes equally.

Making the call when however can be difficult to judge.

https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/mult...iageways.html#

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 15:19:51 +1000, FMurtz wrote:

T i m wrote:
On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 21:15:54 +0100, "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this
is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign saying
the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside lane
thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the
empty inside lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting
them...Or...like in Australia where things are more sensible do I stay
in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and expect those in the
outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting down tailbacks and
making better use of the available road space ?....

You shouldn't be in the outside lane of a dual carriageway unless you
were overtaking slower cars in the inside lane.

'Merging in turn is recommended but only if safe and appropriate when
vehicles are traveling at a very low speed, e.g. when approaching road
works or a road traffic incident. It is not recommended at high
speed.'

We have two instances here one where a dotted line continues to the end
and the left have no rights

Like a slip lane joining a road?

and one where the dotted line finishes early
where each take turns (zippers)

Where you have permanent two-into-one's there is normally an arrow in
the lane with least / no priority indicating which lane (the
secondary) is merging with the other (the primary).

Round here there is a two lane roundabout where one main route
(specifically) exits onto a single carriageway and 'most people' use
the zip thing.

This still seems to be accepted when a vehicle has gained some
advantage by under/overtaking vehicles queuing (the main traffic track
if it was / when it was free flowing) to exit the roundabout as it
means the roundabout is kept clear when the lights change in favour of
traffic trying to cross the roundabout.

And when the lights are off it all flows much better, in all but the
busiest parts of the rush hour.

Cheers, T i m

Jim GM4DHJ ... formulated the question :
Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this is
covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign saying the
inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside lane thus
building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the empty inside
lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting them...Or...like in
Australia where things are more sensible do I stay in the inside lane right
up to the closed lane and expect those in the outside lane instigate the zip
effect thus cutting down tailbacks and making better use of the available
road space ?....

With proper co-operation, zip at the point of closure works best -
everyone is forced to take their turn with a zip merge and it prevents
those who rush down the one lane which is closed, to gain a few yards.

On 02/08/2019 08:54, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... formulated the question :
Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if
this is covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign
saying the inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the
outside lane thus building up the tail back and cursing the fly man
rushing up the empty inside lane and trying to push in even though
nobody is letting them...Or...like in Australia where things are more
sensible do I stay in the inside lane right up to the closed lane and
expect those in the outside lane instigate the zip effect thus cutting
down tailbacks and making better use of the available road space ?....

With proper co-operation, zip at the point of closure works best -
everyone is forced to take their turn with a zip merge and it prevents
those who rush down the one lane which is closed, to gain a few yards.

agreed but how do you get everybody to do it and not be looked upon as
the fly man if you are the only one doing it ? ....

Jim GM4DHJ ... formulated on Friday :
agreed but how do you get everybody to do it and not be looked upon as the
fly man if you are the only one doing it ? ....

I try to be the one in the least occupied lane, but matching position
with the more occupied lane.

Sometimes, you get the heavies driving side by side co-operating to
force a zip merge.

Co-operation in filling both lanes for an orderly zip, does seem to
vary a lot. I used to have a regular visit to make early morning at
Halifax, so M62 then down the dual carriageway, which becomes a single
lane crawl at its end near town. That road was very congested, but
oddly - I was impressed by just how many co-operated with a zip merge
there.

Down south, they seemed much less co-operative.

On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 10:30:32 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.
wrote:

snip

Sometimes, you get the heavies driving side by side co-operating to
force a zip merge.

I've seen an instance of that round here on a dual carriageway where
the right lane was closed ahead and a car went up onto the grass
central reservation with two wheels to overtake the lorry (who was
doing said 'sleazy advantage' moderation).

Cheers, T i m

On 02/08/2019 13:35, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 10:30:32 +0100, Harry Bloomfield, Esq.
wrote:

snip

Sometimes, you get the heavies driving side by side co-operating to
force a zip merge.

I've seen an instance of that round here on a dual carriageway where
the right lane was closed ahead and a car went up onto the grass
central reservation with two wheels to overtake the lorry (who was
doing said 'sleazy advantage' moderation).

Cheers, T i m


Its actually called obstruction and is illegal.

They only do it to gain advantage themselves.

On Friday, 2 August 2019 08:54:50 UTC+1, wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... formulated the question :

Have to say I haven't read my higway code since 1968 so no idea if this is
covered......going down the dual carriage way I come to a sign saying the
inside lane is closed...Do I....immediately go into the outside lane thus
building up the tail back and cursing the fly man rushing up the empty inside
lane and trying to push in even though nobody is letting them...Or...like in
Australia where things are more sensible do I stay in the inside lane right
up to the closed lane and expect those in the outside lane instigate the zip
effect thus cutting down tailbacks and making better use of the available
road space ?....

With proper co-operation, zip at the point of closure works best -
everyone is forced to take their turn with a zip merge and it prevents
those who rush down the one lane which is closed, to gain a few yards.

Zip at point of closure is dangerous to the point of stupid unless at a crawl, that's why people don't do it. It might appear to maximise traffic flow, but since this zipping process does not operate perfectly, if you're not crawling it results in collisions.


NT

wrote in message
...
Zip at point of closure is dangerous to the point of stupid unless at a
crawl, that's why people don't do it. It might appear to maximise traffic
flow, but since this zipping process does not operate perfectly, if you're
not crawling it results in collisions.

I agree. Anything which requires two streams of traffic to do something
alternately, one car from each stream, is tedious and dangerous. Better to
give one stream exclusive access for a period of time then give the other
stream exclusive access for a period of time, or else get them to merge
while road conditions are still normal. Any fool can make zip merging safe,
but it takes *skill* to make it work without imposing a very severe
bottleneck on traffic flow, when with a bit of advance warning, everyone can
get into one lane without having to slow down much and then the single
stream can keep moving through the roadworks.

It's one of those things (like right-turning cars at traffic lights having
to pass driver's side to driver's side *) where I think the Highway Code has
got it wrong or has not kept pace with modern traffic levels.


(*) Doing it the "wrong" way does potentially mean that you don't have such
good visibility of oncoming traffic, but this is far outweighed by the fact
that the two streams of traffic can then act independently of each other,
without each blocking the other's ability to clear the junction so they have
to both move at the same time or not at all. If you do it the wrong way, one
car can turn because of a gap in his oncoming traffic even if the other car
is blocked because there's no gap in his oncoming traffic. Fortunately many
roads now have right-filter lane markings that force you to do it the
"wrong" way, while allowing both cars to pull far enough forward to the stop
line that the drivers each have a good view behind the other car.

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 10:33:31 +0100, "NY" wrote:

snip

Any fool can make zip merging safe,
but it takes *skill* to make it work without imposing a very severe
bottleneck on traffic flow, when with a bit of advance warning, everyone can
get into one lane without having to slow down much and then the single
stream can keep moving through the roadworks.

Bingo.

In many cases, especially on fast / dual carriageways they generally
give you *plenty* of warning about 1) the speed limit being reduced
and 2) the lane being closed. I rarely have any problem obeying both
at the first warning sign to 'get ready' for the restriction.

This isn't the case for some though (and generally a minority in a
roadwork situation) who totally ignore the signs and continue at speed
(say up the inside, effectively undertaking 'at speed') right to the
last second, forcing their way into the traffic that *has* behaved
correctly / respectfully.

I saw that happen on the M25 the other day were all the traffic was
being pushed off at a junction and the Police were waiting in good
quantity and scooping up *everyone* who didn't think they should have
to join the queue in the single exit lane and hope to push in at the
last second.

I would have been equally happy with a flipper arrangement that sent
them and their car straight into a crusher. ;-)

The reason I think that is because I've seen people trying to do that
down the outside of first one then two lines of traffic queing to get
off a motorway, only to find they were unable to force their way in at
the last knockings and end up stationary on a live lane of a busy
motorway. If it were a foreigner or someone lost you might have more
sympathy but it is obvious from their vehicle, the number and age /
gender of the occupants and the make / model of vehicle that they were
just trying it on.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Anyone not realising in time that there was the single line of
queuing traffic would do the 'gentlemanly thing' (as mentioned
elsewhere) and indicate their wish to pull in asap (by matching the
speed of the queuing traffic) and so demonstrate they weren't
*intentionally* trying to gain any real advantage.

NY has brought this to us :
Any fool can make zip merging safe, but it takes *skill* to make it work
without imposing a very severe bottleneck on traffic flow, when with a bit of
advance warning, everyone can get into one lane without having to slow down
much and then the single stream can keep moving through the roadworks.

That just moves the merge point further back and reduces the capacity
of the road to store waiting vehicles. Merging just in time allows more
vehicles to be in the queue, when a queue forms.

In message , Harry Bloomfield
writes
NY has brought this to us :
Any fool can make zip merging safe, but it takes *skill* to make it
work without imposing a very severe bottleneck on traffic flow, when
with a bit of advance warning, everyone can get into one lane without
having to slow down much and then the single stream can keep moving
through the roadworks.

That just moves the merge point further back and reduces the capacity
of the road to store waiting vehicles. Merging just in time allows more
vehicles to be in the queue, when a queue forms.

I don't like queues, do you? When the traffic merges well before it
absolutely has to, there's a far better chance of it being able to
maintain speed, and no queue forms. If left until it has to merge, there
is more chance a bottleneck occurring, and everything grinding to a
halt. And as I said, I don't like queues!
--
Ian

On 02/08/2019 18:07, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
NY has brought this to us :
Any fool can make zip merging safe, but it takes *skill* to make it
work without imposing a very severe bottleneck on traffic flow, when
with a bit of advance warning, everyone can get into one lane without
having to slow down much and then the single stream can keep moving
through the roadworks.

That just moves the merge point further back and reduces the capacity of
the road to store waiting vehicles. Merging just in time allows more
vehicles to be in the queue, when a queue forms.

Except that you can merge when there is a gap, with little adjustment of
speed and so not slow everything down, whereas merging at the
pinch-point often means cutting into a small gap, causing those behind
to brake and the ripple effect to bring the whole road to a halt or
slowing to a stop yourself and holding up the traffic behind.

SteveW

laid this down on his screen :
Zip at point of closure is dangerous to the point of stupid unless at a
crawl, that's why people don't do it. It might appear to maximise traffic
flow, but since this zipping process does not operate perfectly, if you're
not crawling it results in collisions.

Those self important, unco-operative types, who race down the empty
lane, cause the collisions. Those in the full lane, will be distracted
spending lots of time watching their mirrors for those trying to beat
the queue, trying to prevent them pushing in. With an orderly zip, you
can relax concentrate on what is happening ahead and relax.

A steady speed merge can work perfectly. The merge point should should
move back as speed increases and move nearer the obstruction as speed
falls. All it needs for a steady flow, is each to position themselves
alongside a gap in the adjacent lane, then gradually move into the gap.

"Harry Bloomfield"; "Esq." wrote in
message ...
laid this down on his screen :
Zip at point of closure is dangerous to the point of stupid unless at a
crawl, that's why people don't do it. It might appear to maximise traffic
flow, but since this zipping process does not operate perfectly, if
you're not crawling it results in collisions.

Those self important, unco-operative types, who race down the empty lane,
cause the collisions. Those in the full lane, will be distracted spending
lots of time watching their mirrors for those trying to beat the queue,
trying to prevent them pushing in. With an orderly zip, you can relax
concentrate on what is happening ahead and relax.

A steady speed merge can work perfectly. The merge point should should
move back as speed increases and move nearer the obstruction as speed
falls. All it needs for a steady flow, is each to position themselves
alongside a gap in the adjacent lane, then gradually move into the gap.

It all depends on people leaving a bit enough gap from the car in front that
a car on the left or right can move into.

What usually happens is that everyone approaches the slowing traffic and
brakes to leave a minuscule gap ahead which no-one can move into. A lot of
it is down to lane markings: people tend to think "I'm staying in the same
lane so I have priority over people trying to join this lane from another
one".

NY wrote:

"Harry Bloomfield"; "Esq." wrote in
message ...
laid this down on his screen :
Zip at point of closure is dangerous to the point of stupid unless at a
crawl, that's why people don't do it. It might appear to maximise traffic
flow, but since this zipping process does not operate perfectly, if
you're not crawling it results in collisions.

Those self important, unco-operative types, who race down the empty lane,
cause the collisions. Those in the full lane, will be distracted spending
lots of time watching their mirrors for those trying to beat the queue,
trying to prevent them pushing in. With an orderly zip, you can relax
concentrate on what is happening ahead and relax.

A steady speed merge can work perfectly. The merge point should should
move back as speed increases and move nearer the obstruction as speed
falls. All it needs for a steady flow, is each to position themselves
alongside a gap in the adjacent lane, then gradually move into the gap.

It all depends on people leaving a bit enough gap from the car in front that
a car on the left or right can move into.

What usually happens is that everyone approaches the slowing traffic and
brakes to leave a minuscule gap ahead which no-one can move into. A lot of
it is down to lane markings: people tend to think "I'm staying in the same
lane so I have priority over people trying to join this lane from another
one".

I agree. This selfishness is much of the cause of people merging too
soon.


--

Roger Hayter

NY formulated on Friday :
It all depends on people leaving a bit enough gap from the car in front that
a car on the left or right can move into.

Which I do.

What usually happens is that everyone approaches the slowing traffic and
brakes to leave a minuscule gap ahead which no-one can move into. A lot of it
is down to lane markings: people tend to think "I'm staying in the same lane
so I have priority over people trying to join this lane from another one".

Not me, I look where I am going so can come to a gentle well planned
stop with a gap ahead of me. If in a more urgent stop, you can always
make room once the vehicles ahead move do move off.

Harry wrote:

laid this down on his screen :
Zip at point of closure is dangerous to the point of stupid unless at a
crawl, that's why people don't do it. It might appear to maximise traffic
flow, but since this zipping process does not operate perfectly, if you're
not crawling it results in collisions.

Those self important, unco-operative types, who race down the empty
lane, cause the collisions.
The uncooperative types are the ones who merge too soon, then worry
about others gaining an advantage over them.



Those in the full lane, will be distracted
spending lots of time watching their mirrors for those trying to beat
the queue, trying to prevent them pushing in.

With sensible, responsible people they will spend no time at all trying
to prevent anyone else from doing anything. Just driving safely and
cooperating with other drivers.


With an orderly zip, you
can relax concentrate on what is happening ahead and relax.

A steady speed merge can work perfectly. The merge point should should
move back as speed increases and move nearer the obstruction as speed
falls. All it needs for a steady flow, is each to position themselves
alongside a gap in the adjacent lane, then gradually move into the gap.

Unless there is a queue the whole problem will not arise, as there will
be no slow traffic for people conscientiously trying to use both lanes
to overtake. Or those going slightly more slowly if there is no queue
will respect the right of others to drive faster and overtake, without
any dog in the manger attitudes.



--

Roger Hayter

On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 14:14:16 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

Harry wrote:

laid this down on his screen :
Zip at point of closure is dangerous to the point of stupid unless at a
crawl, that's why people don't do it. It might appear to maximise traffic
flow, but since this zipping process does not operate perfectly, if you're
not crawling it results in collisions.

Those self important, unco-operative types, who race down the empty
lane, cause the collisions.

The uncooperative types are the ones who merge too soon, then worry
about others gaining an advantage over them.

Only uncooperative to your interpretation of the rules?

If they merge when or soon after the first warning tells them, THEY
are doing the right thing.



Those in the full lane, will be distracted
spending lots of time watching their mirrors for those trying to beat
the queue, trying to prevent them pushing in.

With sensible, responsible people they will spend no time at all trying
to prevent anyone else from doing anything. Just driving safely and
cooperating with other drivers.

Except 'welcome to the real world'. ;-(

Once you have spent any journeys effectively going backwards because
some selfish cnuts thinks it's 'perfectly ok' to push in front of you,
you will soon get the idea. I have seen people driving off a motorway
in a hold up and straight back down onto it again (and forcing their
way in), meaning I go backwards another cars length. Try that in a
Cinema or McDonalds queue and see how far you get.

With an orderly zip, you
can relax concentrate on what is happening ahead and relax.

A steady speed merge can work perfectly. The merge point should should
move back as speed increases and move nearer the obstruction as speed
falls. All it needs for a steady flow, is each to position themselves
alongside a gap in the adjacent lane, then gradually move into the gap.

Unless there is a queue the whole problem will not arise,

Except when people under / overtake those happily merging to then try
to increase the restriction throughput to Max+1 and then it all
starts to snarl up.

as there will
be no slow traffic for people conscientiously trying to use both lanes
to overtake.

Because in many cases those still trying to under / overtake right up
to the restriction will *also* be speeding. If I have dropped back
from 70 to 50 because it tells me there is a lane closed ahead, no one
should be able to under/overtake me?

Or those going slightly more slowly if there is no queue
will respect the right of others to drive faster and overtake, without
any dog in the manger attitudes.

See above. Ignoring 'mimzers' which we all hate, 'most people' will be
still going at whatever the speed limit is for that restriction. It's
those who don't obey the limits, or the HC, or how to behave on the
public highway (cinema queue) who are causing all the trouble.

Just as those who don't 'get on with it' at lights / junctions that
are known to only give you a few seconds or people turning right from
a straight on only lane who then pull into the space you would have
occupied, had they not sped / undertaken you to get there.

It's all fair in love and war, till you get the ticket for causing an
obstruction / stopping on a yellow box etc.

I have no issue with those simply making a mistake, I've done so
myself at an unknown junction where a lane is left turn only and you
have to politely sneak back in (match the speed of the existing
traffic, indicate, make eye contact, thank them etc), but that's not
what an arrogant minority are doing.

Cheers, T i m

Roger Hayter expressed precisely :
With sensible, responsible people they will spend no time at all trying
to prevent anyone else from doing anything. Just driving safely and
cooperating with other drivers.

With cooperation the whole of the traffic flows much more smoothly,
more quickly, more safely and with much less stress all round.
Unfortunately some don't cooperate well and others are just oblivious
of traffic situations and wade in completely blind.

On Friday, 2 August 2019 10:38:48 UTC+1, wrote:
tabbypurr laid this down on his screen :

Zip at point of closure is dangerous to the point of stupid unless at a
crawl, that's why people don't do it. It might appear to maximise traffic
flow, but since this zipping process does not operate perfectly, if you're
not crawling it results in collisions.

Those self important, unco-operative types, who race down the empty
lane, cause the collisions. Those in the full lane, will be distracted
spending lots of time watching their mirrors for those trying to beat
the queue, trying to prevent them pushing in. With an orderly zip, you
can relax concentrate on what is happening ahead and relax.

A steady speed merge can work perfectly. The merge point should should
move back as speed increases and move nearer the obstruction as speed
falls. All it needs for a steady flow, is each to position themselves
alongside a gap in the adjacent lane, then gradually move into the gap.

Sometimes that happens. But counting on it to do so to avoid a collision is folly indeed.


NT