On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 06:03:13 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the senile asshole troll's latest troll****

--
Keema Nam addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You are now exposed as a liar, as well as an ignorant troll."
"MID: .com"

I thought so too particularly with:

1. Ensuring that voltage drop along L and N was less than 4% of supply voltage at maximum design current of the ring final circuit at the furthest most socket to the RCD/RCBO.

2. achieving below a maximum earth loop impedance to guarantee the required trip performance of the RCD or RCBO.

I have never seen a stated limit on the cable length, only on area.

As there is no stated limit on volume, in theory you could have a ten story house with a footprint of 100m2 and wire all ten rooms sockets all on one ring main(!).

Hopefully Adam will be along to comment further.....

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

Don't have any RCDs here because the house was built in the very
early 70s by me. Didn’t get even a visible burn.

I think I would always get a whole-supply RCD fitted if the house didn't
have one. Even better is a separate RCD for each circuit so a failed light
fitting doesn't trip all the 3-pin plugs as well.

I don't think any of the shocks that I have had (various 240V mains, and one
of about 400 V from a transformer that powered a valve amplifier in a tape
recorder) gave me burns, just "dead" arms/fingers for a while afterwards.
All except one were without RCD protection.

The most recent one (a few weeks ago) was with RCD, and though it gave me a
bit of a jolt, there was no lasting effect. Just as well considering I think
it was arm to arm (across the heart) and my heart may be less tolerant after
I had a heart attack eight years ago. The circumstances were about as stupid
as you can imagine - I'm ashamed to say that I made the elementary mistake
of seeing that the light bulbs were off and thinking that that meant the
wall switch was off - forgetting that the bulbs are all Philips Hue which
are left permanently powered but the LEDs can be turned off. I'd been so
good about turning off both wall switch and lighting circuit MCB, apart from
that one time when I needed to make yet another change to the wiring between
one ceiling spotlight and another, and couldn't be arsed to go downstairs to
the circuit breaker and thought I'd rely on the wall switch.

On 30/07/2019 23:08, wrote:
I thought so too particularly with:

1. Ensuring that voltage drop along L and N was less than 4% of supply voltage at maximum design current of the ring final circuit at the furthest most socket to the RCD/RCBO.

2. achieving below a maximum earth loop impedance to guarantee the required trip performance of the RCD or RCBO.

I have never seen a stated limit on the cable length, only on area.

As there is no stated limit on volume, in theory you could have a ten story house with a footprint of 100m2 and wire all ten rooms sockets all on one ring main(!).

I have always presumed that the area of each floor served was added up,
not just the single footprint.

SteveW

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
wrote:

a radial is only rated to 20a whereas a ring main is rated to 32a which
is a better choice for high load areas

I could understand either a 32A ring (or 4mm^2 radial) for
kitchen/utility, but high current for TV kit?

Could be useful for emergency fan heaters on boiler failure.

I thought high integrity earthing was only required where multiple
appliances with greater than 10mA leakage were expected?

You have not seen my loft....

4 multiswitches with 5 quattro lnbs powered from them
2 off Netgear 48 port switches
4 masthead amplifiers
4 televes avant 5's
8 NASes
Virgin media router
Smooth wall
Pihole
Several APC UPSes

Etc. Etc.

NY wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Don't have any RCDs here because the house was built in the very early
70s by me. Didn’t get even a visible burn.

I think I would always get a whole-supply RCD fitted if the house didn't
have one.

I don’t bother because I have seen those
events be no more than a minor nuisance.
There is very little chance of getting across
the mains and neutral or mains to earth
with a low enough resistance to be a
problem even tho I spend the entire spring
summer and winter inside the house with
bare feet on a bare concrete floor.

That tripping on an appliance fault is likely
to be much more of a damned nuisance.

I do have one of those portable RCDs with
an extension cord plug and a set of sockets
on the box and so have just electric chainsaws
but never bother to use it for that. The chainsaws
do have plastic bodys where you hold them when
using them.

I don’t even use it with the hand held circular saw
either and the oldest one that I used to build the
house has a metal body entirely, no plastic at all.

Even better is a separate RCD for each circuit so a failed light fitting
doesn't trip all the 3-pin plugs as well.

My house is 2 phase with the lights and socket circuits
spread between the two phases so a single phase failure
with the street mains doesn’t see everything go off, so
one RCD per phase wouldn’t see that happen.

I don't think any of the shocks that I have had (various 240V mains, and
one of about 400 V from a transformer that powered a valve amplifier in a
tape recorder) gave me burns, just "dead" arms/fingers for a while
afterwards. All except one were without RCD protection.

I've never see that dead arm/finger result. I did get one sort
of hole in the hand somewhere, forget what produced that.

The most recent one (a few weeks ago) was with RCD, and though it gave me
a bit of a jolt, there was no lasting effect. Just as well considering I
think it was arm to arm (across the heart) and my heart may be less
tolerant after I had a heart attack eight years ago.

Not clear if that risk does increase, spose it might given that yours did
stop.

The circumstances were about as stupid as you can imagine - I'm ashamed to
say that I made the elementary mistake of seeing that the light bulbs were
off and thinking that that meant the wall switch was off - forgetting that
the bulbs are all Philips Hue which
are left permanently powered but the LEDs can be turned off. I'd been so
good about turning off both wall switch and lighting circuit MCB, apart
from that one time when I needed to make yet another change to the wiring
between one ceiling spotlight and another, and couldn't be arsed to go
downstairs to the circuit breaker and thought I'd rely on the wall switch.

All my lights have always been on mains sockets. Mostly with non
switched sockets at the socket itself in the ceiling accessed thru
4'x1' drop in sections in the ceiling which can take a full double
fluoro fitting. Most of them only have a stop in multi section
piece of what we call fibro, rigid wall sheet that at one time
used to have asbestos in them but now doesn’t.

Had any regrets with the Hues ? I havent and mine is almost all
Hue now. Not cheap but work brilliantly. I don’t have any physical
switches at all, just movement sensors and use a voice command
to tell the system to turn all the lights off when in bed. With all
of iphones, google home minis and an echo box able to control
everything and some stuff done on time of day/ sunrise and sunset.

Love it except for the price. Don’t think that I have ever paid full
price for any of it, buy the amazon discounts and get 10% off
that as well at Bunnings with their price match if you are quick
enough so they havent noticed the latest amazon discount offer yet.

Well with all the laptops, phone chargers, tablet chargers, computers, NASes, televisions, dvd players, PVRs etc all using Switch mode PSUs, once you add up all their leakage currents, you will be well over 10mA....

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Had any regrets with the Hues ? I havent and mine is almost all
Hue now. Not cheap but work brilliantly. I don’t have any physical
switches at all, just movement sensors and use a voice command
to tell the system to turn all the lights off when in bed. With all
of iphones, google home minis and an echo box able to control
everything and some stuff done on time of day/ sunrise and sunset.

Love it except for the price. Don’t think that I have ever paid full
price for any of it, buy the amazon discounts and get 10% off
that as well at Bunnings with their price match if you are quick
enough so they havent noticed the latest amazon discount offer yet.

Hue bulbs are certainly very good. The only problem we had with one bulb was
a mechanical one and nothing to do with the technology: one of the little
lugs that stick out from the bayonet fitting (UK uses bayonet not Edison
screw) on one bulb has come off, so the bulb doesn't lock into the fitting
on one side. I've never had it happen with any other bulb, so maybe it's a
slightly weak point on Hue bulbs - or maybe the larger size/weight of the
bulbs makes them more vulnerable if a table lamp gets knocked over (we
suspect it may have happened while some friends were staying).

It's great to be able to turn lights on or off by switch, movement sensor or
Alexa voice control, and to be able to dim them or time them to come on in
the evening.

Philips *urgently* need to lift that 50-odd bulbs per hub restriction. Our
new house has *lots* of GU10 ceiling spotlights, fitted by the previous
owners, and in any room on a given light switch, all those need to be
changed to Hue. We are very close to the limit, and there are still two
rooms that are not yet Hue. As far as I know, the restriction is per hub,
but you can't control more than one hub from the same user account on the
app and on Alexa, so getting an extra hub isn't the solution.

It's a shame also that Hue bulbs have a minimum brightness and can't be
dimmed further (as night lights) without turning them right off.

But they are a great idea. Now Philips need to bring the price down
dramatically. Like you, we only buy them when Amazon have them on special
offer.

"Swer" wrote in message
...


"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
wrote:

a radial is only rated to 20a whereas a ring main is rated to 32a which
is a better choice for high load areas

I could understand either a 32A ring (or 4mm^2 radial) for
kitchen/utility, but high current for TV kit?

Could be useful for emergency fan heaters on boiler failure.

Yes, all 3-pin sockets have to be able to supply the full 13 A in case an
appliance with the maximum allowed power is plugged in. You can't have
sockets that are physically capable of accepting a high power appliance but
which cannot supply it without the cables heating up: even if you label the
socket "low power devices only", someone will ignore it.

On 30/07/2019 23:08, wrote:
I thought so too particularly with:

1. Ensuring that voltage drop along L and N was less than 4% of
supply voltage at maximum design current of the ring final circuit at
the furthest most socket to the RCD/RCBO.

2. achieving below a maximum earth loop impedance to guarantee the
required trip performance of the RCD or RCBO.

I have never seen a stated limit on the cable length, only on area.

As there is no stated limit on volume, in theory you could have a ten
story house with a footprint of 100m2 and wire all ten rooms sockets
all on one ring main(!).

Hopefully Adam will be along to comment further.....


Its the area per room added together.

So they would be very small rooms.

In article , NY wrote:
"Swer" wrote in message
...


"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
wrote:

a radial is only rated to 20a whereas a ring main is rated to 32a
which is a better choice for high load areas

I could understand either a 32A ring (or 4mm^2 radial) for
kitchen/utility, but high current for TV kit?

Could be useful for emergency fan heaters on boiler failure.

Yes, all 3-pin sockets have to be able to supply the full 13 A in case an
appliance with the maximum allowed power is plugged in. You can't have
sockets that are physically capable of accepting a high power appliance
but which cannot supply it without the cables heating up: even if you
label the socket "low power devices only", someone will ignore it.

BUT, you could feed such a socket off a fused spur where the fuse in the
spur is, say. 5A. Yes, I know it could be repaced by a bigger one, but
that's silly.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

NY wrote:
"Swer" wrote in message
...


"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
wrote:

a radial is only rated to 20a whereas a ring main is rated to 32a
which is a better choice for high load areas

I could understandÂ* either a 32A ring (or 4mm^2 radial) for
kitchen/utility, but high current for TV kit?

Could be useful for emergency fan heaters on boiler failure.

Yes, all 3-pin sockets have to be able to supply the full 13 A

I wasn't suggesting anything lower than 20A

On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 16:34:18 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the two senile idiots' usual endless drivel

--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
your particular prowess at it every day."
MID:

On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:07:34 +1000, Swer, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:


I thought

Good one, senile idiot! LOL

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

"NY" wrote in message
...
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Had any regrets with the Hues ? I havent and mine is almost all
Hue now. Not cheap but work brilliantly. I don’t have any physical
switches at all, just movement sensors and use a voice command
to tell the system to turn all the lights off when in bed. With all
of iphones, google home minis and an echo box able to control
everything and some stuff done on time of day/ sunrise and sunset.

Love it except for the price. Don’t think that I have ever paid full
price for any of it, buy the amazon discounts and get 10% off
that as well at Bunnings with their price match if you are quick
enough so they havent noticed the latest amazon discount offer yet.

Hue bulbs are certainly very good. The only problem we had with one bulb
was a mechanical one and nothing to do with the technology: one of the
little lugs that stick out from the bayonet fitting (UK uses bayonet not
Edison screw) on one bulb has come off, so the bulb doesn't lock into the
fitting on one side. I've never had it happen with any other bulb, so
maybe it's a slightly weak point on Hue bulbs - or maybe the larger
size/weight of the bulbs makes them more vulnerable if a table lamp gets
knocked over (we suspect it may have happened while some friends were
staying).

It's great to be able to turn lights on or off by switch, movement sensor
or Alexa voice control, and to be able to dim them or time them to come on
in the evening.

Philips *urgently* need to lift that 50-odd bulbs per hub restriction. Our
new house has *lots* of GU10 ceiling spotlights, fitted by the previous
owners, and in any room on a given light switch, all those need to be
changed to Hue. We are very close to the limit, and there are still two
rooms that are not yet Hue. As far as I know, the restriction is per hub,
but you can't control more than one hub from the same user account on the
app and on Alexa, so getting an extra hub isn't the solution.

That’s not correct.

It's a shame also that Hue bulbs have a minimum brightness and can't be
dimmed further (as night lights) without turning them right off.

But they are a great idea. Now Philips need to bring the price down
dramatically. Like you, we only buy them when Amazon have them on special
offer.

On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 20:10:10 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


but you can't control more than one hub from the same user account on the
app and on Alexa, so getting an extra hub isn't the solution.

That¢s not correct.

I wonder how long it will still take that NY fool to find out what's wrong
with you, senile Rodent? Don't you wonder too? G

--
Norman Wells addressing senile Rot:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
NY wrote:
"Swer" wrote in message
...


"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
wrote:

a radial is only rated to 20a whereas a ring main is rated to 32a
which is a better choice for high load areas

I could understand either a 32A ring (or 4mm^2 radial) for
kitchen/utility, but high current for TV kit?

Could be useful for emergency fan heaters on boiler failure.

Yes, all 3-pin sockets have to be able to supply the full 13 A

I wasn't suggesting anything lower than 20A

But that wont work with more than one fan heater per spur.

Swer wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

I wasn't suggesting anything lower than 20A

But that wont work with more than one fan heater per spur.

In practice, a 20A MCB will allow two 3kW heaters per circuit more or
less indefinitely, especially if they're cycling independently on their
thermostats, and assuming you don't live in a gaping barn.

On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 20:28:52 +1000, Swer, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

Could be useful for emergency fan heaters on boiler failure.

Yes, all 3-pin sockets have to be able to supply the full 13 A

I wasn't suggesting anything lower than 20A

But that wont work with more than one fan heater per spur.

Shove your fan heaters up your senile arse, senile asshole!

--
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp addressing Rot Speed:
"You really are a clueless pillock."
MID:

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Philips *urgently* need to lift that 50-odd bulbs per hub restriction.
Our new house has *lots* of GU10 ceiling spotlights, fitted by the
previous owners, and in any room on a given light switch, all those need
to be changed to Hue. We are very close to the limit, and there are still
two rooms that are not yet Hue. As far as I know, the restriction is per
hub, but you can't control more than one hub from the same user account
on the app and on Alexa, so getting an extra hub isn't the solution.

That’s not correct.

Which bit is incorrect: the 50+ bulb per hub limit or the one hub per Hue
app account? Keeping up with all the restrictions is not easy, and it's
possible that some of the restrictions may have been lifted/modified since
we last checked.

On 31/07/2019 09:43, NY wrote:
"Swer" wrote in message
...


"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
wrote:

a radial is only rated to 20a whereas a ring main is rated to 32a
which is a better choice for high load areas

I could understandÂ* either a 32A ring (or 4mm^2 radial) for
kitchen/utility, but high current for TV kit?

Could be useful for emergency fan heaters on boiler failure.

Yes, all 3-pin sockets have to be able to supply the full 13 A in case
an appliance with the maximum allowed power is plugged in. You can't
have sockets that are physically capable of accepting a high power
appliance but which cannot supply it without the cables heating up: even
if you label the socket "low power devices only", someone will ignore it.

Shame that it can also overheat if you plug all the appliances at one
end and that the householder doesn't usually know the rule or where the
cables run.

But enough of that lets put brexit into the thread!

On 31/07/2019 11:48, Andy Burns wrote:
Swer wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:
I wasn't suggesting anything lower than 20A

But that wont work with more than one fan heater per spur.

In practice, a 20A MCB will allow two 3kW heaters per circuit more or
less indefinitely, especially if they're cycling independently on their
thermostats, and assuming you don't live in a gaping barn.

And it doesn't matter if they are both at one end of a ring with a 20A
breaker.

On 31/07/2019 11:48, Andy Burns wrote:
Swer wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:
I wasn't suggesting anything lower than 20A

But that wont work with more than one fan heater per spur.

In practice, a 20A MCB will allow two 3kW heaters per circuit more or
less indefinitely, especially if they're cycling independently on their
thermostats, and assuming you don't live in a gaping barn.

With all that kit in the loft, all he needs is some ducting to
circulate the heat around the house, surely ?.

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Swer wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:
I wasn't suggesting anything lower than 20A

But that wont work with more than one fan heater per spur.

In practice, a 20A MCB will allow two 3kW heaters per circuit more or less
indefinitely, especially if they're cycling independently on their
thermostats, and assuming you don't live in a gaping barn.

They are unlikely to be cycling if you are using them
as a workaround while the boiler gets fixed.

Swer wrote:

They are unlikely to be cycling if you are using them
as a workaround while the boiler gets fixed.

A 3kW fan heater used in my uninsulated garage reaches equilibrium in a
reasonable time.

"NY" wrote in message
...
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Philips *urgently* need to lift that 50-odd bulbs per hub restriction.
Our new house has *lots* of GU10 ceiling spotlights, fitted by the
previous owners, and in any room on a given light switch, all those need
to be changed to Hue. We are very close to the limit, and there are
still two rooms that are not yet Hue. As far as I know, the restriction
is per hub, but you can't control more than one hub from the same user
account on the app and on Alexa, so getting an extra hub isn't the
solution.

That’s not correct.

Which bit is incorrect: the 50+ bulb per hub limit or the one hub per Hue
app account?

The second.

Keeping up with all the restrictions is not easy, and it's
possible that some of the restrictions may have been lifted/modified since
we last checked.

They havent changed. Its always been possible to have more than
one hub per Hue app account. Just not as easy to setup.

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 03:38:09 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


They havent changed. Its always been possible to have more than
one hub per Hue app account. Just not as easy to setup.

You can shove your Alexa and your Hue bulbs up yours, senile Ozzie cretin!

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 03:13:10 +1000, Swer, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:


In practice, a 20A MCB will allow two 3kW heaters per circuit more or less
indefinitely, especially if they're cycling independently on their
thermostats, and assuming you don't live in a gaping barn.

They are unlikely to be cycling if you are using them
as a workaround while the boiler gets fixed.

They are more likely to be cycling than you shutting your stupid senile gob,
senile Ozzie pest!

Website dedicated to the trolling senile Australian asshole since 2007:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
your particular prowess at it every day."
MID:

Brian Gaff presented the following explanation :
Yes even in the 1970s you could by fairy lights all wired in series across
the mains, usually 20 bulbs with one fusible bulb which had bayonet connector
on one end.

You bought the replacement lamps by describing the base and the total
number of lamps in the set. I guess they were all the same wattage,
just the intended voltage which varied.

On 31/07/2019 01:07, Swer wrote:


"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
wrote:

a radial is only rated to 20a whereas a ring main is rated to 32a
which is a better choice for high load areas

I could understandÂ* either a 32A ring (or 4mm^2 radial) for
kitchen/utility, but high current for TV kit?

Could be useful for emergency fan heaters on boiler failure.

Perhaps he has one of those 4.5 kW audio systems that was discussed
earlier (perhaps in uk.rec.audio)

I thought high integrity earthing was only required where multiple
appliances with greater than 10mA leakage were expected?

On 31/07/2019 18:28, Andy Burns wrote:
Swer wrote:

They are unlikely to be cycling if you are using them
as a workaround while the boiler gets fixed.

A 3kW fan heater used in my uninsulated garage reaches equilibrium in a
reasonable time.

By which time the plug emits as much heat as the fire :-)

In article ,
scribeth thus
You have not seen my loft....

4 multiswitches with 5 quattro lnbs powered from them
2 off Netgear 48 port switches
4 masthead amplifiers
4 televes avant 5's
8 NASes
Virgin media router
Smooth wall
Pihole
Several APC UPSes

Etc. Etc.

How do they cope on very hot days like when its 30 odd outside?..

--
Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

The Netgear switch did hang when the temperature got excessive.

The symptom was that the even numbered ports just "froze" with the activity lights permanently on.

I got a uprated fan kit and fitted that and the problem went away. Even in the hottest day of the year a week or so ago, all the kit in the loft was fine.

However, when I bought the televes Avant 5's, two of them failed soon after where the power led started flashing.

Googling for common faults revealed that a single 16uF electrolytic cap was prone to drying out and going high ESR and they were rated to 85 Deg C within the power supply section.

So I got a pack of Panasonic FM series 105 degree extra low ESR capacitors and replaced the problem prone capacitor on all 4 televes avants.

Not had any more problems since.