As per title, the latest in an alarmingly and depressingly long list of
household item that have died or malfunctionned recently is a Siemens
WD14H421GB Washer-Dryer which was last used about a week and a half ago
and worked fine. Turned it on this morning to wash some sheets, and
it's not spinning, further during normal agitation the drum only turns
anti-clockwise, whereas it should alternate directions, and AFAICR
spinning is clockwise.

Fortunately, unlike the late fridge/freezer, whose saga has already been
told, it's still comfortably within its 2 year warranty, but until I
have time to read the instructions, etc - just now I have to go out
unexpectedly to buy a new clothes line to hang my dripping sheets on -
and/or can arrange for it to be repaired, has anybody who has
experienced similar have any suggestions?

On 20/05/2019 13:22, Java Jive wrote:
As per title, the latest in an alarmingly and depressingly long list of
household item that have died or malfunctionned recently is a Siemens
WD14H421GB Washer-Dryer which was last used about a week and a half ago
and worked fine.Â* Turned it on this morning to wash some sheets, and
it's not spinning, further during normal agitation the drum only turns
anti-clockwise, whereas it should alternate directions, and AFAICR
spinning is clockwise.

Fortunately, unlike the late fridge/freezer, whose saga has already been
told, it's still comfortably within its 2 year warranty, but until I
have time to read the instructions, etcÂ* -Â* just now I have to go out
unexpectedly to buy a new clothes line to hang my dripping sheets onÂ* -
and/or can arrange for it to be repaired, has anybody who has
experienced similar have any suggestions?

My first thought is that there's probably some sort of triac or
thyristor drive circuit. One blown power semiconductor out of four would
allow power to the motor in one direction, but not in the other. It
could also be the circuit driving the power devices instead.

If a power semiconductor has blown, you'd usually be able to see the
physical damage to it.

SteveW

On 20/05/2019 13:36, Steve Walker wrote:
On 20/05/2019 13:22, Java Jive wrote:
As per title, the latest in an alarmingly and depressingly long list
of household item that have died or malfunctionned recently is a
Siemens WD14H421GB Washer-Dryer which was last used about a week and a
half ago and worked fine.Â* Turned it on this morning to wash some
sheets, and it's not spinning, further during normal agitation the
drum only turns anti-clockwise, whereas it should alternate
directions, and AFAICR spinning is clockwise.

Fortunately, unlike the late fridge/freezer, whose saga has already
been told, it's still comfortably within its 2 year warranty, but
until I have time to read the instructions, etcÂ* -Â* just now I have to
go out unexpectedly to buy a new clothes line to hang my dripping
sheets onÂ* - and/or can arrange for it to be repaired, has anybody who
has experienced similar have any suggestions?

My first thought is that there's probably some sort of triac or
thyristor drive circuit. One blown power semiconductor out of four would
allow power to the motor in one direction, but not in the other. It
could also be the circuit driving the power devices instead.

If a power semiconductor has blown, you'd usually be able to see the
physical damage to it.


I'd read the OP as wanting suggestions on what to check before making a
warranty claim. If so, I wonder if opening it up to look at such things
might be said to have invalidated the warranty.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 20/05/2019 13:22, Java Jive wrote:
has anybody who has
experienced similar have any suggestions?

I haven't got a Siemens machine (mine is a Bosch washer) but I have
noticed on rare occasions that whatever is in the machine is still
sopping wet at the end of the programme. If that happens I select
"Rinse and Spin" and it does another rinse then a spin and everything
comes out spun dry.

The Bosch machine has a Rinse Hold capability and I have a suspicion
that perhaps this can be accidentally set by someone brushing past the
programme modification buttons during the wash cycle, though I have
never investigated this.

I did do a quick look at the Siemens write-up for the model you quote
and I found "If (Rinse stop = without final drain/spin cycle) was
selected, press Start/Reload button to start the final drain/spin
cycle". So it is vaguely possible that your wash may have accidentally
been started with Rinse stop, in which case the above advice might fix it.

Alternatively, you may genuinely have a fault. I leave you to decide
whether to experiment a bit first or whether to get it looked at under
guarantee straight away.

Jim

On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 2:22:45 PM UTC+2, Java Jive wrote:
As per title, the latest in an alarmingly and depressingly long list of
household item that have died or malfunctionned recently is a Siemens
WD14H421GB Washer-Dryer which was last used about a week and a half ago
and worked fine. Turned it on this morning to wash some sheets, and
it's not spinning, further during normal agitation the drum only turns
anti-clockwise, whereas it should alternate directions, and AFAICR
spinning is clockwise.

Fortunately, unlike the late fridge/freezer, whose saga has already been
told, it's still comfortably within its 2 year warranty, but until I
have time to read the instructions, etc - just now I have to go out
unexpectedly to buy a new clothes line to hang my dripping sheets on -
and/or can arrange for it to be repaired, has anybody who has
experienced similar have any suggestions?

Have you tried turning it off (at the socket) and on again? With many appliances these days it's always worth a short.

Tim

On 20/05/2019 13:22, Java Jive wrote:
As per title, the latest in an alarmingly and depressingly long list of
household item that have died or malfunctionned recently is a Siemens
WD14H421GB Washer-Dryer which was last used about a week and a half ago
and worked fine.Â* Turned it on this morning to wash some sheets, and
it's not spinning, further during normal agitation the drum only turns
anti-clockwise, whereas it should alternate directions, and AFAICR
spinning is clockwise.

Try running it empty in case it detected 'out of balance' and therefore
inhibited spin.

Bill

On 20/05/2019 14:26, Indy Jess John wrote:
On 20/05/2019 13:22, Java Jive wrote:
has anybody who has
experienced similar have any suggestions?

I haven't got a Siemens machine (mine is a Bosch washer) but I have
noticed on rare occasions that whatever is in the machine is still
sopping wet at the end of the programme.Â* If that happens I select
"Rinse and Spin" and it does another rinse then a spin and everything
comes out spun dry.

The Bosch machine has a Rinse Hold capability and I have a suspicion
that perhaps this can be accidentally set by someone brushing past the
programme modification buttons during the wash cycle, though I have
never investigated this.

I did do a quick look at the Siemens write-up for the model you quote
and I found "If (Rinse stop = without final drain/spin cycle) was
selected, press Start/Reload button to start the final drain/spin
cycle". So it is vaguely possible that your wash may have accidentally
been started with Rinse stop, in which case the above advice might fix it.

Alternatively, you may genuinely have a fault.Â* I leave you to decide
whether to experiment a bit first or whether to get it looked at under
guarantee straight away.

Jim


The other (fixable) thing which leaves you with wet sheets is a pound
coin in the impeller of the drain pump. Sensors tell it that draining
has failed and that locks out the spin cycle.

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On 20/05/2019 15:10, newshound wrote:

The other (fixable) thing which leaves you with wet sheets is a pound
coin in the impeller of the drain pump. Sensors tell it that draining
has failed and that locks out the spin cycle.

Sometimes the coin gets stuck in the outlet pipe.

Bill

Could try a complete disconnect and restart, it is probably one of these new
intelligent ones. For intelligent substitute confusable.
Brian

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"Java Jive" wrote in message
...
As per title, the latest in an alarmingly and depressingly long list of
household item that have died or malfunctionned recently is a Siemens
WD14H421GB Washer-Dryer which was last used about a week and a half ago
and worked fine. Turned it on this morning to wash some sheets, and it's
not spinning, further during normal agitation the drum only turns
anti-clockwise, whereas it should alternate directions, and AFAICR
spinning is clockwise.

Fortunately, unlike the late fridge/freezer, whose saga has already been
told, it's still comfortably within its 2 year warranty, but until I have
time to read the instructions, etc - just now I have to go out
unexpectedly to buy a new clothes line to hang my dripping sheets on -
and/or can arrange for it to be repaired, has anybody who has experienced
similar have any suggestions?

Well don't about that but if all his appliances that have failed in a
relatively short space of time are connected I'd suggest that some weird
event on the mains may be to blame. I normally find these triacs go short
and then things do go very peculiar indeed even emitting smoke.
I'd just try to prove its not finger trouble of confused software and then
shove it back to the suppliers.
Brian

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"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 20/05/2019 13:22, Java Jive wrote:
As per title, the latest in an alarmingly and depressingly long list of
household item that have died or malfunctionned recently is a Siemens
WD14H421GB Washer-Dryer which was last used about a week and a half ago
and worked fine. Turned it on this morning to wash some sheets, and it's
not spinning, further during normal agitation the drum only turns
anti-clockwise, whereas it should alternate directions, and AFAICR
spinning is clockwise.

Fortunately, unlike the late fridge/freezer, whose saga has already been
told, it's still comfortably within its 2 year warranty, but until I have
time to read the instructions, etc - just now I have to go out
unexpectedly to buy a new clothes line to hang my dripping sheets on -
and/or can arrange for it to be repaired, has anybody who has experienced
similar have any suggestions?

My first thought is that there's probably some sort of triac or thyristor
drive circuit. One blown power semiconductor out of four would allow power
to the motor in one direction, but not in the other. It could also be the
circuit driving the power devices instead.

If a power semiconductor has blown, you'd usually be able to see the
physical damage to it.

SteveW

On 20/05/2019 15:10, newshound wrote:
On 20/05/2019 14:26, Indy Jess John wrote:
On 20/05/2019 13:22, Java Jive wrote:
has anybody who has
experienced similar have any suggestions?

I haven't got a Siemens machine (mine is a Bosch washer) but I have
noticed on rare occasions that whatever is in the machine is still
sopping wet at the end of the programme.Â* If that happens I select
"Rinse and Spin" and it does another rinse then a spin and everything
comes out spun dry.

The Bosch machine has a Rinse Hold capability and I have a suspicion
that perhaps this can be accidentally set by someone brushing past the
programme modification buttons during the wash cycle, though I have
never investigated this.

I did do a quick look at the Siemens write-up for the model you quote
and I found "If (Rinse stop = without final drain/spin cycle) was
selected, press Start/Reload button to start the final drain/spin
cycle". So it is vaguely possible that your wash may have accidentally
been started with Rinse stop, in which case the above advice might fix
it.

Alternatively, you may genuinely have a fault.Â* I leave you to decide
whether to experiment a bit first or whether to get it looked at under
guarantee straight away.

Jim


The other (fixable) thing which leaves you with wet sheets is a pound
coin in the impeller of the drain pump. Sensors tell it that draining
has failed and that locks out the spin cycle.

Machines usually raise an alarm and indicate a fault for something like
that though.

SteveW

Yes I'd not want to do that, but some very odd things can be made to occur
with dodgy software.
Brian

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"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 20/05/2019 13:36, Steve Walker wrote:
On 20/05/2019 13:22, Java Jive wrote:
As per title, the latest in an alarmingly and depressingly long list of
household item that have died or malfunctionned recently is a Siemens
WD14H421GB Washer-Dryer which was last used about a week and a half ago
and worked fine. Turned it on this morning to wash some sheets, and it's
not spinning, further during normal agitation the drum only turns
anti-clockwise, whereas it should alternate directions, and AFAICR
spinning is clockwise.

Fortunately, unlike the late fridge/freezer, whose saga has already been
told, it's still comfortably within its 2 year warranty, but until I
have time to read the instructions, etc - just now I have to go out
unexpectedly to buy a new clothes line to hang my dripping sheets on -
and/or can arrange for it to be repaired, has anybody who has
experienced similar have any suggestions?

My first thought is that there's probably some sort of triac or thyristor
drive circuit. One blown power semiconductor out of four would allow
power to the motor in one direction, but not in the other. It could also
be the circuit driving the power devices instead.

If a power semiconductor has blown, you'd usually be able to see the
physical damage to it.


I'd read the OP as wanting suggestions on what to check before making a
warranty claim. If so, I wonder if opening it up to look at such things
might be said to have invalidated the warranty.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 20/05/2019 14:21, Robin wrote:

On 20/05/2019 13:36, Steve Walker wrote:

If a power semiconductor has blown, you'd usually be able to see the
physical damage to it.

I'd read the OP as wanting suggestions on what to check before making a
warranty claim. If so, I wonder if opening it up to look at such things
might be said to have invalidated the warranty.

Yes. I suspect that Steve's suggestion is either correct or very close,
because it explains both the symptoms, the one-way agitation and the
failure to spin, but you are correct in that I was looking for things to
check before chasing the warranty.

As suggested by others, I checked the filter, which, perhaps
surprisingly, was very clean, not quite pristine, but not far off.
However I didn't expect that to be the problem, because it didn't
explain the one-way agitation.

The suggestion of an unbalanced load also doesn't explain the one-way
agitation.

I've rung John Lewis, who passed me on to Siemens, and I await their
maintenance partners to call to arrange a visit.

Thanks all.

You are not one of these people like Kate Bush who prefers to watch the
clothes going around in the machine than what is on the telly are you?
Brian

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"Java Jive" wrote in message
...
As per title, the latest in an alarmingly and depressingly long list of
household item that have died or malfunctionned recently is a Siemens
WD14H421GB Washer-Dryer which was last used about a week and a half ago
and worked fine. Turned it on this morning to wash some sheets, and it's
not spinning, further during normal agitation the drum only turns
anti-clockwise, whereas it should alternate directions, and AFAICR
spinning is clockwise.

Fortunately, unlike the late fridge/freezer, whose saga has already been
told, it's still comfortably within its 2 year warranty, but until I have
time to read the instructions, etc - just now I have to go out
unexpectedly to buy a new clothes line to hang my dripping sheets on -
and/or can arrange for it to be repaired, has anybody who has experienced
similar have any suggestions?

Actually on the other group this was posted to my real first thought was to
knock on the neighbours door smile like a useless bloke and ask her to put
them in the spinner for you.
Brian

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Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 20/05/2019 13:22, Java Jive wrote:
As per title, the latest in an alarmingly and depressingly long list of
household item that have died or malfunctionned recently is a Siemens
WD14H421GB Washer-Dryer which was last used about a week and a half ago
and worked fine. Turned it on this morning to wash some sheets, and it's
not spinning, further during normal agitation the drum only turns
anti-clockwise, whereas it should alternate directions, and AFAICR
spinning is clockwise.

Fortunately, unlike the late fridge/freezer, whose saga has already been
told, it's still comfortably within its 2 year warranty, but until I have
time to read the instructions, etc - just now I have to go out
unexpectedly to buy a new clothes line to hang my dripping sheets on -
and/or can arrange for it to be repaired, has anybody who has experienced
similar have any suggestions?

My first thought is that there's probably some sort of triac or thyristor
drive circuit. One blown power semiconductor out of four would allow power
to the motor in one direction, but not in the other. It could also be the
circuit driving the power devices instead.

If a power semiconductor has blown, you'd usually be able to see the
physical damage to it.

SteveW

Java Jive wrote:

the latest in an alarmingly and depressingly long list of household item
that have died or malfunctionned recently is a Siemens WD14H421GB
Washer-Dryer which was last used about a week and a half ago and worked
fine.Â* Turned it on this morning to wash some sheets, and it's not spinning

Have you tried a factory reset, unplug the aerial and do a full retune?

On 20/05/2019 16:38, Steve Walker wrote:
On 20/05/2019 15:10, newshound wrote:
On 20/05/2019 14:26, Indy Jess John wrote:
On 20/05/2019 13:22, Java Jive wrote:
has anybody who has
experienced similar have any suggestions?

I haven't got a Siemens machine (mine is a Bosch washer) but I have
noticed on rare occasions that whatever is in the machine is still
sopping wet at the end of the programme.Â* If that happens I select
"Rinse and Spin" and it does another rinse then a spin and everything
comes out spun dry.

The Bosch machine has a Rinse Hold capability and I have a suspicion
that perhaps this can be accidentally set by someone brushing past
the programme modification buttons during the wash cycle, though I
have never investigated this.

I did do a quick look at the Siemens write-up for the model you quote
and I found "If (Rinse stop = without final drain/spin cycle) was
selected, press Start/Reload button to start the final drain/spin
cycle". So it is vaguely possible that your wash may have
accidentally been started with Rinse stop, in which case the above
advice might fix it.

Alternatively, you may genuinely have a fault.Â* I leave you to decide
whether to experiment a bit first or whether to get it looked at
under guarantee straight away.

Jim


The other (fixable) thing which leaves you with wet sheets is a pound
coin in the impeller of the drain pump. Sensors tell it that draining
has failed and that locks out the spin cycle.

Machines usually raise an alarm and indicate a fault for something like
that though.

SteveW

Some do, some don't. Mine just stops.

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Andy Burns a formulé ce lundi :
Java Jive wrote:

the latest in an alarmingly and depressingly long list of household item
that have died or malfunctionned recently is a Siemens WD14H421GB
Washer-Dryer which was last used about a week and a half ago and worked
fine.* Turned it on this morning to wash some sheets, and it's not spinning

Have you tried a factory reset, unplug the aerial and do a full retune?

+1
If you can grasp what you see it is not a digital-tv .
Probably a washing machine or a microwave oven.
HTH lol

For the record most modern machines use a stepping motor which makes it
much easier to control direction and speed of rotation. However because
it is doing part of the wash it is unlikely to be that at fault.

In practice the commonest fault is that the machine has failed to drain
as it will not continue if it thinks there is still water in the tub. As
has been suggested it could be a coin in the pump or a sock stuck in the
outer drum that is blocking the pump inlet - fingers will usually find
if it is.

The other question, is the OP using liquid wash at lower temps rather
than powder? Liquid can cause horrendous gunging up of the pump, the
outlet pipe of the machine, and especially the fixed pipe into the
drainage system. We have a Miele and they recommend that if you use
liquid you should do a long high temp powder wash with the machine empty
about once a month or so to remove the gunge. We find it is very
effective. Generally if there is gunge it will stink.


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

On 22/05/2019 15:53, Woody wrote:
For the record most modern machines use a stepping motor which makes it
much easier to control direction and speed of rotation. However because
it is doing part of the wash it is unlikely to be that at fault.

In practice the commonest fault is that the machine has failed to drain
as it will not continue if it thinks there is still water in the tub. As
has been suggested it could be a coin in the pump or a sock stuck in the
outer drum that is blocking the pump inlet - fingers will usually find
if it is.

The other question, is the OP using liquid wash at lower temps rather
than powder? Liquid can cause horrendous gunging up of the pump, the
outlet pipe of the machine, and especially the fixed pipe into the
drainage system. We have a Miele and they recommend that if you use
liquid you should do a long high temp powder wash with the machine empty
about once a month or so to remove the gunge. We find it is very
effective. Generally if there is gunge it will stink.


Interesting.

Bill

Woody wrote:

most modern machines use a stepping motor which makes it
much easier to control direction and speed of rotation.

The engineer said my hotpoint washer/dryer (post indesit/ariston
takeover) uses a 3-ph motor driven by a VFD.

On 23/05/2019 08:01, Andy Burns wrote:
Woody wrote:

most modern machines use a stepping motor which makes it much easier
to control direction and speed of rotation.

The engineer said my hotpoint washer/dryer (post indesit/ariston
takeover) uses a 3-ph motor driven by a VFD.

almost the same. Its a very moot point as to when a multipole 3 phase
motors ceases to be a 3 phase motor and becomes a stepper motor.



--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

Bill Wright wrote:
On 22/05/2019 15:53, Woody wrote:
For the record most modern machines use a stepping motor which makes it
much easier to control direction and speed of rotation. However because
it is doing part of the wash it is unlikely to be that at fault.

In practice the commonest fault is that the machine has failed to drain
as it will not continue if it thinks there is still water in the tub. As
has been suggested it could be a coin in the pump or a sock stuck in the
outer drum that is blocking the pump inlet - fingers will usually find
if it is.

The other question, is the OP using liquid wash at lower temps rather
than powder? Liquid can cause horrendous gunging up of the pump, the
outlet pipe of the machine, and especially the fixed pipe into the
drainage system. We have a Miele and they recommend that if you use
liquid you should do a long high temp powder wash with the machine empty
about once a month or so to remove the gunge. We find it is very
effective. Generally if there is gunge it will stink.


Interesting.

Bill


My Miele washing machine, being Germanic, lights a €œhygiene€� indicator if
it has done too many low temperature washes without a hot wash. My old
Bosch washer ended up getting black mould being imbedded in the door seal
which would never shift. So with my Miele I now run it occasionally at 90
degrees C with a bottle of Aldi washing machine cleaner. The machine is as
shiny and clean as the day it was purchased.

On Thu, 23 May 2019 17:55:51 +0000 (UTC) Tweed
posted:

Bill Wright wrote:
On 22/05/2019 15:53, Woody wrote:
For the record most modern machines use a stepping motor which makes it
much easier to control direction and speed of rotation. However because
it is doing part of the wash it is unlikely to be that at fault.

In practice the commonest fault is that the machine has failed to drain
as it will not continue if it thinks there is still water in the tub. As
has been suggested it could be a coin in the pump or a sock stuck in the
outer drum that is blocking the pump inlet - fingers will usually find
if it is.

The other question, is the OP using liquid wash at lower temps rather
than powder? Liquid can cause horrendous gunging up of the pump, the
outlet pipe of the machine, and especially the fixed pipe into the
drainage system. We have a Miele and they recommend that if you use
liquid you should do a long high temp powder wash with the machine empty
about once a month or so to remove the gunge. We find it is very
effective. Generally if there is gunge it will stink.


Interesting.

Bill


My Miele washing machine, being Germanic, lights a ?hygiene? indicator if
it has done too many low temperature washes without a hot wash. My old
Bosch washer ended up getting black mould being imbedded in the door seal
which would never shift. So with my Miele I now run it occasionally at 90
degrees C with a bottle of Aldi washing machine cleaner. The machine is as
shiny and clean as the day it was purchased.

Wiping the seal and rinsing the soap drawer, especially of fabric
conditional, after every day's use pays dividends too.

My Bosch is 4 years old and sparkles for that 2 minutes of attention.

On Thu 23/05/2019 18:55, Tweed wrote:
Bill Wright wrote:
On 22/05/2019 15:53, Woody wrote:
For the record most modern machines use a stepping motor which makes it
much easier to control direction and speed of rotation. However because
it is doing part of the wash it is unlikely to be that at fault.

In practice the commonest fault is that the machine has failed to drain
as it will not continue if it thinks there is still water in the tub. As
has been suggested it could be a coin in the pump or a sock stuck in the
outer drum that is blocking the pump inlet - fingers will usually find
if it is.

The other question, is the OP using liquid wash at lower temps rather
than powder? Liquid can cause horrendous gunging up of the pump, the
outlet pipe of the machine, and especially the fixed pipe into the
drainage system. We have a Miele and they recommend that if you use
liquid you should do a long high temp powder wash with the machine empty
about once a month or so to remove the gunge. We find it is very
effective. Generally if there is gunge it will stink.


Interesting.

Bill


My Miele washing machine, being Germanic, lights a €œhygiene€� indicator if
it has done too many low temperature washes without a hot wash. My old
Bosch washer ended up getting black mould being imbedded in the door seal
which would never shift. So with my Miele I now run it occasionally at 90
degrees C with a bottle of Aldi washing machine cleaner. The machine is as
shiny and clean as the day it was purchased.

The hot wash does, to some extent at least, alleviate the
'black-spots-on-the-door-seal' problem, but not completely. HG do a
mould remover which is very effective. There is also a powder product
that you use to do an empty hot wash and it not only removes the black
spots, it also shifts all that gunge that liquid washes at low temps
produce (see my earlier.) Magic stuff but I can't remember the name of
the **** stuff!

--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

On 23/05/2019 05:10, Bill Wright wrote:
On 22/05/2019 15:53, Woody wrote:
For the record most modern machines use a stepping motor which makes
it much easier to control direction and speed of rotation. However
because it is doing part of the wash it is unlikely to be that at fault.

In practice the commonest fault is that the machine has failed to
drain as it will not continue if it thinks there is still water in the
tub. As has been suggested it could be a coin in the pump or a sock
stuck in the outer drum that is blocking the pump inlet - fingers will
usually find if it is.

The other question, is the OP using liquid wash at lower temps rather
than powder? Liquid can cause horrendous gunging up of the pump, the
outlet pipe of the machine, and especially the fixed pipe into the
drainage system. We have a Miele and they recommend that if you use
liquid you should do a long high temp powder wash with the machine
empty about once a month or so to remove the gunge. We find it is very
effective. Generally if there is gunge it will stink.


Interesting.

Bill

So, a bit like rural broadband delivered by overhead lines,
where the phone is never actually used. Ringing the landline
number every so often, sends the ?60 volt ringing pulse down
the line and helps to prevent cable joints going high-resistance.

On Fri 24/05/2019 15:06, Andrew wrote:
On 23/05/2019 05:10, Bill Wright wrote:
On 22/05/2019 15:53, Woody wrote:
For the record most modern machines use a stepping motor which makes
it much easier to control direction and speed of rotation. However
because it is doing part of the wash it is unlikely to be that at fault.

In practice the commonest fault is that the machine has failed to
drain as it will not continue if it thinks there is still water in
the tub. As has been suggested it could be a coin in the pump or a
sock stuck in the outer drum that is blocking the pump inlet -
fingers will usually find if it is.

The other question, is the OP using liquid wash at lower temps rather
than powder? Liquid can cause horrendous gunging up of the pump, the
outlet pipe of the machine, and especially the fixed pipe into the
drainage system. We have a Miele and they recommend that if you use
liquid you should do a long high temp powder wash with the machine
empty about once a month or so to remove the gunge. We find it is
very effective. Generally if there is gunge it will stink.


Interesting.

Bill

So, a bit like rural broadband delivered by overhead lines,
where the phone is never actually used. Ringing the landline
number every so often, sends the ?60 volt ringing pulse down
the line and helps to prevent cable joints going high-resistance.



Usually 50V 25Hz a.c.

--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

In article ,
Woody wrote:
On Fri 24/05/2019 15:06, Andrew wrote:
On 23/05/2019 05:10, Bill Wright wrote:
On 22/05/2019 15:53, Woody wrote:
For the record most modern machines use a stepping motor which makes
it much easier to control direction and speed of rotation. However
because it is doing part of the wash it is unlikely to be that at fault.

In practice the commonest fault is that the machine has failed to
drain as it will not continue if it thinks there is still water in
the tub. As has been suggested it could be a coin in the pump or a
sock stuck in the outer drum that is blocking the pump inlet -
fingers will usually find if it is.

The other question, is the OP using liquid wash at lower temps rather
than powder? Liquid can cause horrendous gunging up of the pump, the
outlet pipe of the machine, and especially the fixed pipe into the
drainage system. We have a Miele and they recommend that if you use
liquid you should do a long high temp powder wash with the machine
empty about once a month or so to remove the gunge. We find it is
very effective. Generally if there is gunge it will stink.


Interesting.

Bill

So, a bit like rural broadband delivered by overhead lines,
where the phone is never actually used. Ringing the landline
number every so often, sends the ?60 volt ringing pulse down
the line and helps to prevent cable joints going high-resistance.



Usually 50V 25Hz a.c.

no. usually 33Hz and less that 100v. The safety elf doesn't like 240v,,

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Thu, 23 May 2019 08:52:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 23/05/2019 08:01, Andy Burns wrote:
Woody wrote:

most modern machines use a stepping motor which makes it much easier
to control direction and speed of rotation.

The engineer said my hotpoint washer/dryer (post indesit/ariston
takeover) uses a 3-ph motor driven by a VFD.

almost the same. Its a very moot point as to when a multipole 3 phase
motors ceases to be a 3 phase motor and becomes a stepper motor.

There's a very strong distinction between those two motor types. I
believe what you may have had in mind was the very fine distinction
between permanent magnet BLDC and three phase synchronous motors where
the distinction *is* very much finer.

A three phase synchronous motor (regardless of pole pair number) when
carefully designed, should ideally exhibit no 'cogging effect' as it is
manually rotated. Perfection in this regard is hard to achieve so some
cogging effect is still likely to be observed with such a test.

The endearing characteristic of a true three (or poly-phase) motor
(whether of induction or synchronous type) is the constant torque output
throughout each revolution once up to speed (no torque ripple).

Three phase motors designed to be driven directly from a 50 or 60 Hz
supply run at just the one fixed speed which is fine for most industrial
processes and those domestic applications where variable speed is not
required (fan motors or pumps).

Of course, this leaves the issue of getting them up to speed on
application of mains power which is solved by star to delta switching of
the windings in large industrial machines along with current limiting
resistors (smaller domestic sized machines forego the complexity of star
to delta switching, relying on current limiting resistors alone).

Such starter gear complexity only has to deal with the relatively
infrequent nought to 3000rpm speed changes, allowing the current limiting
resistors used to be rated for a short term, non repetitive duty cycle.

Until semiconductors became available that could cost effectively use
high frequency switching of the voltages and currents required to drive a
high voltage DC to three phase variable voltage and frequency inverter,
it hadn't been practical to use three phase motors for variable speed
applications such as domestic washing machine drum drives.

Today, such VFD control modules and associated sub HP rated three phase
multi-pole pair drum motors are becoming an ever more common feature of
the modern domestic washing machine.

Whilst even today, after a decade or more since they first started to
appear in high end white goods, they are still an expensive option.
However, they're beginning to become more commonly featured in high end
fridge freezers as ultra quiet, high efficiency surge free starting
compressor motors (which is useful for anyone looking to provide power
from a small emergency genset during a power blackout - what's not to
like about a VFD motor, other than their rather high price premium?).

Getting back to the VFD three phase motor's close cousin, the permanent
magnet (is there any other type?) BLDC motor driven by an ESC (electronic
speed controller) from a DC supply, torque delivery in this class lacks
the smoothness of a true three phase motor since only two of the three
phase windings are actually being driven at any one time by the
controller.

Obviously, this is no great detriment in their typical usage or else
they wouldn't be so widely deployed as high efficiency alternatives to
the classic DC brushed motor used in battery powered cordless drills,
screwdrivers, chainsaws and drone prop motors.

In the latter case, this allows each of the three windings to provide a
back emf zero crossing signal in turn to drive the commutation switching
circuit in the 'sensorless' ESCs used with drone propeller motors.

This 'sensorless' technique whilst fine with propeller or fan loads,
isn't suited to BLDC motors driving gross mechanical loads such as drills
and starter motors since it relies on the motor to actually be spinning
to generate the commutation sensing signal, the timing of which is
critical to the smooth and efficient operation of such motors.

To achieve the starting reliability and smooth running of a traditional
DC brushed motor, a BLDC motor's controller requires an accurate
mechanically synchronised signal independent of speed which works even
when at a standstill (startup or stalled by the load).

With the more traditional design of BLDC motor, this is achieved by the
extra complication of a trio of Hall Effect sensors, precisely aligned
for maximum efficiency during their manufacture, making them more
expensive.

However of late, AMS have produced a neat alternative solution[1] which
can trivially be retrofitted to any three phase alternator whether
permanent magnet type such as used by emergency inverter gensets or
separately excited as in an IC powered vehicle's alternator, neatly
converting them into a BLDC motor (a lightweight solution to upgrading a
pull cord only start emergency inverter genset to electric start for one
instance).

Although the BLDC motor has a 'cogging' characteristic more akin to that
of a stepper motor, the difference in this case is that it's an
undesirable side effect best minimised by design whilst in the stepper
motor case it's a desirable effect best maximised by design. Also, the
major difference between the two motor types is that stepper motors are
normally a two phase design and the BLDC motor is always a three phase
one, more akin to that of a traditional three phase AC motor.

[1] For the more curious amongst you, there's an in depth article
covering the subject of BLDC control at this web address:-

https://www.electronicproducts.com/A...l_ICs/Sensors/
Absolute_position_sensing_the_key_to_better_brushl ess_DC_motor_control.aspx

https://tinyurl.com/y2u5n9r9

HTH & HAND! :-)

--
Johnny B Good

On Fri 24/05/2019 17:43, charles wrote:
In article ,
Woody wrote:
On Fri 24/05/2019 15:06, Andrew wrote:
On 23/05/2019 05:10, Bill Wright wrote:
On 22/05/2019 15:53, Woody wrote:
For the record most modern machines use a stepping motor which makes
it much easier to control direction and speed of rotation. However
because it is doing part of the wash it is unlikely to be that at fault.

In practice the commonest fault is that the machine has failed to
drain as it will not continue if it thinks there is still water in
the tub. As has been suggested it could be a coin in the pump or a
sock stuck in the outer drum that is blocking the pump inlet -
fingers will usually find if it is.

The other question, is the OP using liquid wash at lower temps rather
than powder? Liquid can cause horrendous gunging up of the pump, the
outlet pipe of the machine, and especially the fixed pipe into the
drainage system. We have a Miele and they recommend that if you use
liquid you should do a long high temp powder wash with the machine
empty about once a month or so to remove the gunge. We find it is
very effective. Generally if there is gunge it will stink.


Interesting.

Bill

So, a bit like rural broadband delivered by overhead lines,
where the phone is never actually used. Ringing the landline
number every so often, sends the ?60 volt ringing pulse down
the line and helps to prevent cable joints going high-resistance.



Usually 50V 25Hz a.c.

no. usually 33Hz and less that 100v. The safety elf doesn't like 240v,,

Sorry Charles, wrong.

In the UK in the days of Strowger the ringing frequency was 17Hz but
when Crossbar and electronics came into the arena it went to 25Hz where
it stays to this day. Voltage is nominally 50Vac but it is quite normal
for this to be as high as 70V - indeed that is the voltage offered by
most VoIP ATA units.

--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

On Fri 24/05/2019 18:06, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Thu, 23 May 2019 08:52:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 23/05/2019 08:01, Andy Burns wrote:
Woody wrote:

most modern machines use a stepping motor which makes it much easier
to control direction and speed of rotation.

The engineer said my hotpoint washer/dryer (post indesit/ariston
takeover) uses a 3-ph motor driven by a VFD.

almost the same. Its a very moot point as to when a multipole 3 phase
motors ceases to be a 3 phase motor and becomes a stepper motor.

There's a very strong distinction between those two motor types. I
believe what you may have had in mind was the very fine distinction
between permanent magnet BLDC and three phase synchronous motors where
the distinction *is* very much finer.

A three phase synchronous motor (regardless of pole pair number) when
carefully designed, should ideally exhibit no 'cogging effect' as it is
manually rotated. Perfection in this regard is hard to achieve so some
cogging effect is still likely to be observed with such a test.

The endearing characteristic of a true three (or poly-phase) motor
(whether of induction or synchronous type) is the constant torque output
throughout each revolution once up to speed (no torque ripple).

Three phase motors designed to be driven directly from a 50 or 60 Hz
supply run at just the one fixed speed which is fine for most industrial
processes and those domestic applications where variable speed is not
required (fan motors or pumps).

Of course, this leaves the issue of getting them up to speed on
application of mains power which is solved by star to delta switching of
the windings in large industrial machines along with current limiting
resistors (smaller domestic sized machines forego the complexity of star
to delta switching, relying on current limiting resistors alone).

Such starter gear complexity only has to deal with the relatively
infrequent nought to 3000rpm speed changes, allowing the current limiting
resistors used to be rated for a short term, non repetitive duty cycle.

Until semiconductors became available that could cost effectively use
high frequency switching of the voltages and currents required to drive a
high voltage DC to three phase variable voltage and frequency inverter,
it hadn't been practical to use three phase motors for variable speed
applications such as domestic washing machine drum drives.

Today, such VFD control modules and associated sub HP rated three phase
multi-pole pair drum motors are becoming an ever more common feature of
the modern domestic washing machine.

Whilst even today, after a decade or more since they first started to
appear in high end white goods, they are still an expensive option.
However, they're beginning to become more commonly featured in high end
fridge freezers as ultra quiet, high efficiency surge free starting
compressor motors (which is useful for anyone looking to provide power
from a small emergency genset during a power blackout - what's not to
like about a VFD motor, other than their rather high price premium?).

Getting back to the VFD three phase motor's close cousin, the permanent
magnet (is there any other type?) BLDC motor driven by an ESC (electronic
speed controller) from a DC supply, torque delivery in this class lacks
the smoothness of a true three phase motor since only two of the three
phase windings are actually being driven at any one time by the
controller.

Obviously, this is no great detriment in their typical usage or else
they wouldn't be so widely deployed as high efficiency alternatives to
the classic DC brushed motor used in battery powered cordless drills,
screwdrivers, chainsaws and drone prop motors.

In the latter case, this allows each of the three windings to provide a
back emf zero crossing signal in turn to drive the commutation switching
circuit in the 'sensorless' ESCs used with drone propeller motors.

This 'sensorless' technique whilst fine with propeller or fan loads,
isn't suited to BLDC motors driving gross mechanical loads such as drills
and starter motors since it relies on the motor to actually be spinning
to generate the commutation sensing signal, the timing of which is
critical to the smooth and efficient operation of such motors.

To achieve the starting reliability and smooth running of a traditional
DC brushed motor, a BLDC motor's controller requires an accurate
mechanically synchronised signal independent of speed which works even
when at a standstill (startup or stalled by the load).

With the more traditional design of BLDC motor, this is achieved by the
extra complication of a trio of Hall Effect sensors, precisely aligned
for maximum efficiency during their manufacture, making them more
expensive.

However of late, AMS have produced a neat alternative solution[1] which
can trivially be retrofitted to any three phase alternator whether
permanent magnet type such as used by emergency inverter gensets or
separately excited as in an IC powered vehicle's alternator, neatly
converting them into a BLDC motor (a lightweight solution to upgrading a
pull cord only start emergency inverter genset to electric start for one
instance).

Although the BLDC motor has a 'cogging' characteristic more akin to that
of a stepper motor, the difference in this case is that it's an
undesirable side effect best minimised by design whilst in the stepper
motor case it's a desirable effect best maximised by design. Also, the
major difference between the two motor types is that stepper motors are
normally a two phase design and the BLDC motor is always a three phase
one, more akin to that of a traditional three phase AC motor.

[1] For the more curious amongst you, there's an in depth article
covering the subject of BLDC control at this web address:-

https://www.electronicproducts.com/A...l_ICs/Sensors/
Absolute_position_sensing_the_key_to_better_brushl ess_DC_motor_control.aspx

https://tinyurl.com/y2u5n9r9

HTH & HAND! :-)

Hmmm.
In that case why does the motor of our Miele washer do 15000rpm when
spinning?

--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

On Fri, 24 May 2019 19:19:38 +0100, Woody wrote:

On Fri 24/05/2019 17:43, charles wrote:
In article ,
Woody wrote:
On Fri 24/05/2019 15:06, Andrew wrote:
On 23/05/2019 05:10, Bill Wright wrote:
On 22/05/2019 15:53, Woody wrote:
For the record most modern machines use a stepping motor which
makes it much easier to control direction and speed of rotation.
However because it is doing part of the wash it is unlikely to be
that at fault.

In practice the commonest fault is that the machine has failed to
drain as it will not continue if it thinks there is still water in
the tub. As has been suggested it could be a coin in the pump or a
sock stuck in the outer drum that is blocking the pump inlet -
fingers will usually find if it is.

The other question, is the OP using liquid wash at lower temps
rather than powder? Liquid can cause horrendous gunging up of the
pump, the outlet pipe of the machine, and especially the fixed pipe
into the drainage system. We have a Miele and they recommend that
if you use liquid you should do a long high temp powder wash with
the machine empty about once a month or so to remove the gunge. We
find it is very effective. Generally if there is gunge it will
stink.


Interesting.

Bill

So, a bit like rural broadband delivered by overhead lines, where the
phone is never actually used. Ringing the landline number every so
often, sends the ?60 volt ringing pulse down the line and helps to
prevent cable joints going high-resistance.



Usually 50V 25Hz a.c.

no. usually 33Hz and less that 100v. The safety elf doesn't like 240v,,

Sorry Charles, wrong.

In the UK in the days of Strowger the ringing frequency was 17Hz but
when Crossbar and electronics came into the arena it went to 25Hz where
it stays to this day. Voltage is nominally 50Vac but it is quite normal
for this to be as high as 70V - indeed that is the voltage offered by
most VoIP ATA units.

It is in fact nominally 70v for ISDN lines.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 24/05/2019 18:06, Johnny B Good wrote:
With the more traditional design of BLDC motor, this is achieved by the
extra complication of a trio of Hall Effect sensors, precisely aligned
for maximum efficiency during their manufacture, making them more
expensive.

Why can't the manufacturing process include a calibration step for the
actual location of the sensors?

In fact the controller ought to be able to self calibrate as soon as the
drum is spinning at any reasonable speed.

Andy

On 24/05/2019 19:21, Woody wrote:

Hmmm.
In that case why does the motor of our Miele washer do 15000rpm when
spinning?

It probably doesn't. Did you mean 1,500 rather than 15,000?

Andy

On 24/05/2019 17:43, charles wrote:
Usually 50V 25Hz a.c.
no. usually 33Hz and less that 100v. The safety elf doesn't like 240v,,

Lets see,

50v. Less than 100V. Check

25Hz well not far of 33Hz. Check

In fact in the UK its 20Hz and 90V RMS.



--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

In fact in the UK its 20Hz and 90V RMS.

BT SIN 351 says 20 to 26Hz at 40 to 100V

On Friday, 24 May 2019 21:07:52 UTC+1, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 24/05/2019 19:21, Woody wrote:

Hmmm.
In that case why does the motor of our Miele washer do 15000rpm when
spinning?

It probably doesn't. Did you mean 1,500 rather than 15,000?

Andy

I don't know any belt drive WM motor that does 1500rpm. 15k is more typical.


NT

On Fri 24/05/2019 21:07, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 24/05/2019 19:21, Woody wrote:

Hmmm.
In that case why does the motor of our Miele washer do 15000rpm when
spinning?

It probably doesn't. Did you mean 1,500 rather than 15,000?


No, confirmed from the senior tech who came to replace the belt under
warranty that it does 15000rpm - probably why it whistles. I would
believe it as well given the motor pulley is only about 3in across (if
that) but the drum pulley must be well over a foot and the machine will
spin at 1600rpm.


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

On 25/05/2019 09:17, Woody wrote:
On Fri 24/05/2019 21:07, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 24/05/2019 19:21, Woody wrote:

Hmmm.
In that case why does the motor of our Miele washer do 15000rpm when
spinning?

It probably doesn't. Did you mean 1,500 rather than 15,000?


No, confirmed from the senior tech who came to replace the belt under
warranty that it does 15000rpm - probably why it whistles. I would
believe it as well given the motor pulley is only about 3in across (if
that) but the drum pulley must be well over a foot and the machine will
spin at 1600rpm.


15,000 RPM is fairly low for small electric motors.

Some of the ones dentists use are over 100k.

In model planes, 15,000 wont even get a ducted fan out of bed.

And yes we are talking horsepower level motors



--
Theres a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons
that sound good.

Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)

On 24/05/2019 21:07, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 24/05/2019 19:21, Woody wrote:

Hmmm.
In that case why does the motor of our Miele washer do 15000rpm when
spinning?

It probably doesn't. Did you mean 1,500 rather than 15,000?

It is quite typical of a washing machine for the motor to have no pulley
and instead just have multi-v grooves machined into the motor shaft -
about 1/2" to 3/4" diameter.

The pulley on the back of the drum is typically about 18" diameter.

Using the larger drive shaft size, the ratio is: 18":3/4" which equals 24:1.

With a spin speed of 1600rpm, that means a motor speed of 38400 rpm.

SteveW