Can the panel cast their eye over the following circuit order for a 15-
way high integrity split CU in a 3-storey house and make any suggestions
for improvement?

100A MAIN SWITCH
6A 30mA RCBO Smoke Alarms
spare
80A 30mA RCD covering:
32A Oven
32A Hob
32A Middle and Top Floor Sockets
6A Ground Floor Lighting
spare
spare
80A 30mA RCD covering:
32A Kitchen Sockets + Appliances
32A Downstairs Sockets
16A Immersion Heater
6A Middle Floor Lighting
6A Top Floor Lighting
spare
spare

The more independent RCBOs the better.
Nice to have freezer on its own RCBO.
[g]

On Sunday, February 17, 2019 at 4:19:09 PM UTC, Jeff Phillips wrote:
Can the panel cast their eye over the following circuit order for a 15-
way high integrity split CU in a 3-storey house and make any suggestions
for improvement?

100A MAIN SWITCH
6A 30mA RCBO Smoke Alarms
spare
80A 30mA RCD covering:
32A Oven
32A Hob
32A Middle and Top Floor Sockets
6A Ground Floor Lighting
spare
spare
80A 30mA RCD covering:
32A Kitchen Sockets + Appliances
32A Downstairs Sockets
16A Immersion Heater
6A Middle Floor Lighting
6A Top Floor Lighting
spare
spare

On 17/02/2019 16:19, Jeff Phillips wrote:
Can the panel cast their eye over the following circuit order for a 15-
way high integrity split CU in a 3-storey house and make any suggestions
for improvement?

100A MAIN SWITCH
6A 30mA RCBO Smoke Alarms
spare
80A 30mA RCD covering:
32A Oven
32A Hob
32A Middle and Top Floor Sockets
6A Ground Floor Lighting
spare
spare
80A 30mA RCD covering:
32A Kitchen Sockets + Appliances
32A Downstairs Sockets
16A Immersion Heater
6A Middle Floor Lighting
6A Top Floor Lighting
spare
spare


Any gotchas or is this a genuine question?

--
Adam

On Sunday, 17 February 2019 16:19:09 UTC, Jeff Phillips wrote:
Can the panel cast their eye over the following circuit order for a 15-
way high integrity split CU in a 3-storey house and make any suggestions
for improvement?

100A MAIN SWITCH
6A 30mA RCBO Smoke Alarms

I would always put them on a lights circuit, then you'll notice if that circuit trips fairly quickly (and get it fixed). Similarly for a freezer.

80A 30mA RCD covering:
32A Oven
32A Hob

Will they not go on one circuit?

6A Ground Floor Lighting

I put my lounge and main bedroom have ceiling and wall lights on different circuits/RCDs

Owain

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 16:33:41 +0000, ARW wrote:

Any gotchas or is this a genuine question?

Apologies; genuine question! :-)

Doing a fair bit of DIY (including wiring) and have decided to replace
the current whole-house RCD'd CU and so with everything out thought I'd
ask for suggestions.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 08:55:53 -0800, spuorgelgoog wrote:

6A 30mA RCBO Smoke Alarms

I would always put them on a lights circuit, then you'll notice if that
circuit trips fairly quickly (and get it fixed). Similarly for a
freezer.

Hmm... yes - that sounds a good idea. The smoke alarms have battery
backup but of course that would only become apparent after some time, and
the missing power LED would unlikely be noticed.

80A 30mA RCD covering:
32A Oven 32A Hob

Will they not go on one circuit?

I did wonder that. There's a new kitchen going in with a new - as yet
unspecified - electric oven and induction hob (to replace a gas hob). To
maximise choice, both now and in the future, I was planning on running
two circuits, but perhaps that's overkill?

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 08:23:10 -0800, George Miles wrote:

The more independent RCBOs the better.
Nice to have freezer on its own RCBO.

That makes sense, but then so does Owain's suggestion of having them tied
in with a lighting circuit to make it obvious if they trip! I suppose
there's no perfect way.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 11:59:25 -0600, Jeff Phillips wrote:

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 08:55:53 -0800, spuorgelgoog wrote:

6A 30mA RCBO Smoke Alarms

I would always put them on a lights circuit, then you'll notice if that
circuit trips fairly quickly (and get it fixed). Similarly for a
freezer.

Hmm... yes - that sounds a good idea. The smoke alarms have battery
backup but of course that would only become apparent after some time,
and the missing power LED would unlikely be noticed.

I put them on a dedicated circuit, but also include a non-maintained
emergency light halfway down the stairs (at eye level as you descend, on
the edge of the landing floor if you see what I mean).

That will give some light to the stairs, and both floors, in case of a
power failure, while also alerting you to a trip at other times.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

I actually put my intruder alarm, smoke detectors, carbon monoxide and cctv system all on a 6A rcbo.

All of the alarm keypads start beeping in the event of a power cut or if the rcbo trips so you get audible warning.

It also happens to be the case that one of the interlinked smoke alarms has an interface box which is then connected to a spare zone on the alarm panel.

Ditto for the carbon monoxide detectors which is on another zone.

So the main alarm panel goes off too if the smoke or CO detectors sound.

My cctv Recorder has a set of alarm interface terminals so if the recorder detects a fault such as loss of video or loss of hard disc drive, the keypads also pick it up as another additional zone.

I had to buy a UPS for the cctv and for the cable modem as neither has battery back up like the smokes or co or alarm system.

The alarm panel is also able to send me me text messages and the cctv system can send me emails.

It's all down to appropriate well thought out system design.

On 17/02/2019 16:19, Jeff Phillips wrote:
Can the panel cast their eye over the following circuit order for a 15-
way high integrity split CU in a 3-storey house and make any suggestions
for improvement?

100A MAIN SWITCH
6A 30mA RCBO Smoke Alarms
spare
80A 30mA RCD covering:
32A Oven
32A Hob
32A Middle and Top Floor Sockets
6A Ground Floor Lighting
spare
spare
80A 30mA RCD covering:
32A Kitchen Sockets + Appliances
32A Downstairs Sockets
16A Immersion Heater
6A Middle Floor Lighting
6A Top Floor Lighting
spare
spare

I would swap the middle and ground floor lighting, so you can't lose
lighting on two adjacent floors from one RCD trip.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

P.s my consumer unit is an all rcbo design which means:

More room for more circuits as you can get 4rcbos in the same space as two RCDs

Improved circuit fault discrimination so you don't lose half the house circuits should a rcd trip.

I have also separated all outside stuff onto its own rcbo so nothing on the inside is affected should something go wrong outside. So I have a rcbo for outside lighting and another rcbo for outdoor sockets

The combi boiler is also on its own 6a rcbo so I minimise a chance of a burst pipe due to a trip caused by anything else connected to the same rcbo developing a fault condition.

Another point is that an rcd had a trip current of 30mA and with several downstream mcbs, they will all contribute that trip current via things such as switch mode PSUs. With a split load cu, nuisance trips are common.

I have 16 rcbos in my cu so each circuit has all of that 30mA trip current threshold each. Ever since I installed it, I have not had one single nuisance trip on any of my 16 circuits.

On 17/02/2019 17:59, Jeff Phillips wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 08:55:53 -0800, spuorgelgoog wrote:

6A 30mA RCBO Smoke Alarms

I would always put them on a lights circuit, then you'll notice if that
circuit trips fairly quickly (and get it fixed). Similarly for a
freezer.

Hmm... yes - that sounds a good idea. The smoke alarms have battery
backup but of course that would only become apparent after some time, and
the missing power LED would unlikely be noticed.

Better with the freezers to have Brennan freezer alarms. Then you are
notified immediately.

Bill

P.s. the burst pipe I mentioned is for winter where I rely on the central heating with the thermostats set to frost protection or to ensure maximum availability of central heating and hot water.

I found that the cost of 16 rcbos was not much more than the cost of two RCDs and 16 mcbs....

I have a 18 way consumer unit where 16 Rcbos would fit leaving me with two spare ways but 16 mcbs and 2 RCDs would not fit as that would require a 20 way cu.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 19:32:44 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

I put them on a dedicated circuit, but also include a non-maintained
emergency light

Thanks Bob, that sounds like a great idea. I see you can get recessed LED
downlighter versions which should work well on our middle lighting for
providing some illumination for both stairwells whilst not presenting any
aesthetic issues.

Having only performed a cursory search for options it seems that they
often only provide a 3hr illumination time. This would be fine for an
alarm but perhaps not that useful for power failure notification. Perhaps
I just need to do further searching?

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 20:16:44 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

Better with the freezers to have Brennan freezer alarms. Then you are
notified immediately.

And I suppose would also cover other (non-power) faults too.

On 17/02/2019 17:47, Jeff Phillips wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 16:33:41 +0000, ARW wrote:

Any gotchas or is this a genuine question?

Apologies; genuine question! :-)

Doing a fair bit of DIY (including wiring) and have decided to replace
the current whole-house RCD'd CU and so with everything out thought I'd
ask for suggestions.


My suggestion is to put the kitchen sockets on their own RCBO and
consider doubling up the smokes with a lighting circuit of your choice.



--
Adam

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 21:07:54 +0000, ARW wrote:

My suggestion is to put the kitchen sockets on their own RCBO and
consider doubling up the smokes with a lighting circuit of your choice.

Thanks Adam. Can you elaborate on the RCBO for the kitchen? Is it the
likelihood of nuisance trips from likely leakage in that area?

One thing I have heard is that an 32A rcbo is used for under counter appliances like washing machine, dishwasher, fridges and freezers. A 2nd rcbo is used for the wall sockets that are used for kettles, toasters, hand mixers etc.

The kitchen is easily the highest electrical load room in the whole house!

If you have a utility room, I would consider a separate rcbo for that room too.

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
On 17/02/2019 17:59, Jeff Phillips wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 08:55:53 -0800, spuorgelgoog wrote:

6A 30mA RCBO Smoke Alarms

I would always put them on a lights circuit, then you'll notice if that
circuit trips fairly quickly (and get it fixed). Similarly for a
freezer.

Hmm... yes - that sounds a good idea. The smoke alarms have battery
backup but of course that would only become apparent after some time, and
the missing power LED would unlikely be noticed.

Better with the freezers to have Brennan freezer alarms. Then you are
notified immediately.

Bit low tech tho, I'd prefer a wifi one that tells my phone when there is a
problem.

On Sunday, 17 February 2019 19:32:46 UTC, Bob Eager wrote:
I put them on a dedicated circuit, but also include a non-maintained
emergency light halfway down the stairs ...
That will give some light to the stairs, and both floors, in case of a
power failure, while also alerting you to a trip at other times.

But *won't* give you emergency light if your ordinary light circuit fails but the dedicated circuit is still on.

It is a useful indicator though, and emergency lights are also good. On my list is one for the (internal) bathroom which is completely dark without power.

Owain

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 13:39:59 -0800, spuorgelgoog wrote:

On Sunday, 17 February 2019 19:32:46 UTC, Bob Eager wrote:
I put them on a dedicated circuit, but also include a non-maintained
emergency light halfway down the stairs ...
That will give some light to the stairs, and both floors, in case of a
power failure, while also alerting you to a trip at other times.

But *won't* give you emergency light if your ordinary light circuit
fails but the dedicated circuit is still on.

True. I should also have said that each floor has lighting on separate
circuits, in separate CUs.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 14:42:18 -0600, Jeff Phillips wrote:

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 19:32:44 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

I put them on a dedicated circuit, but also include a non-maintained
emergency light

Thanks Bob, that sounds like a great idea. I see you can get recessed
LED downlighter versions which should work well on our middle lighting
for providing some illumination for both stairwells whilst not
presenting any aesthetic issues.

Having only performed a cursory search for options it seems that they
often only provide a 3hr illumination time. This would be fine for an
alarm but perhaps not that useful for power failure notification.
Perhaps I just need to do further searching?

That's true. A complete power failure is obvious in our house. Three
separate UPS units start beeping wildly. This happened recently at 4 a.m.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 13:39:59 -0800, spuorgelgoog wrote:

It is a useful indicator though, and emergency lights are also good. On
my list is one for the (internal) bathroom which is completely dark
without power.

Another good idea. One of our bathrooms is internal and it really shows
that rooms with windows nearly always have at least some light making it
round curtains at night.

This type seems ideal at only 45mm diameter so ought to be subtle:

https://www.lampshoponline.com/circu...ing-ac-dc.html

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 12:34:06 -0800, stephenten wrote:

I found that the cost of 16 rcbos was not much more than the cost of two
RCDs and 16 mcbs....

Thanks for your thoughts Stephen. Will consider the RCBO route a bit
further.

On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 08:30:47 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:



Bit low tech tho, I'd prefer a wifi one that tells my phone when there is a
problem.

Yeah, you ARE that kind of brainless, godless, consuming sheep, senile Rot!

--
FredXX to Rot Speed:
"You are still an idiot and an embarrassment to your country. No wonder
we shippe the likes of you out of the British Isles. Perhaps stupidity
and criminality is inherited after all?"
Message-ID:

On 17/02/2019 21:18, Jeff Phillips wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 21:07:54 +0000, ARW wrote:

My suggestion is to put the kitchen sockets on their own RCBO and
consider doubling up the smokes with a lighting circuit of your choice.

Thanks Adam. Can you elaborate on the RCBO for the kitchen? Is it the
likelihood of nuisance trips from likely leakage in that area?

Yup - you have lots of appliances that have a reputation for being a
source of high leakage currents (i.e. lots of things with metal clad,
mineral insulated heating elements in damp environments)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 17/02/2019 21:18, Jeff Phillips wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 21:07:54 +0000, ARW wrote:

My suggestion is to put the kitchen sockets on their own RCBO and
consider doubling up the smokes with a lighting circuit of your choice.

Thanks Adam. Can you elaborate on the RCBO for the kitchen? Is it the
likelihood of nuisance trips from likely leakage in that area?


No need to apologise. I was just a little surprised that someone had
bothered to put the time and effort into doing a decent job.

It seems that John Rumm has answered your question for me:-)

There will always be a cumulative leakage to earth from class I
appliances and the kitchen is the no one place to find them.

I was also thinking that that circuit powers your fridge/freezer.
Ideally it would have it's own RCBO but as that is probably not possible
in your case then go for the best alternative.

All the best with it.

--
Adam

On 17/02/2019 19:32, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 11:59:25 -0600, Jeff Phillips wrote:

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 08:55:53 -0800, spuorgelgoog wrote:

6A 30mA RCBO Smoke Alarms

I would always put them on a lights circuit, then you'll notice if that
circuit trips fairly quickly (and get it fixed). Similarly for a
freezer.

Hmm... yes - that sounds a good idea. The smoke alarms have battery
backup but of course that would only become apparent after some time,
and the missing power LED would unlikely be noticed.

I put them on a dedicated circuit, but also include a non-maintained
emergency light halfway down the stairs (at eye level as you descend, on
the edge of the landing floor if you see what I mean).

I wonder how Brian Gaff manages to get down his stairs?

I can get down my stairs without falling over in a power cut.



--
Adam

On 17/02/2019 20:34, wrote:
I found that the cost of 16 rcbos was not much more than the cost of two RCDs and 16 mcbs....

I have a 18 way consumer unit where 16 Rcbos would fit leaving me with two spare ways but 16 mcbs and 2 RCDs would not fit as that would require a 20 way cu.


It's worth noting that some CU manufacturers include the main switch as
part of the number of ways.

--
Adam

On Monday, 18 February 2019 20:47:53 UTC, ARW wrote:
I wonder how Brian Gaff manages to get down his stairs?
I can get down my stairs without falling over in a power cut.

I can too, but get disorientated if the light suddenly fails and I have to move from visual to tactile navigation.

Actually I walked into the bus stop this morning. Just because I can see something doesn't mean I can see how far away it is.

Owain

On 18/02/2019 21:59, wrote:
On Monday, 18 February 2019 20:47:53 UTC, ARW wrote:
I wonder how Brian Gaff manages to get down his stairs?
I can get down my stairs without falling over in a power cut.

I can too, but get disorientated if the light suddenly fails and I have to move from visual to tactile navigation.


This newsgroup seems to have a lot of posters that seem to be obsessed
with power cuts that occur just as they are about to use or half way
down their stairs.


--
Adam

On 18/02/2019 22:24, ARW wrote:
On 18/02/2019 21:59, wrote:
On Monday, 18 February 2019 20:47:53 UTC, ARWÂ* wrote:
I wonder how Brian Gaff manages to get down his stairs?
I can get down my stairs without falling over in a power cut.

I can too, but get disorientated if the light suddenly fails and I
have to move from visual to tactile navigation.


This newsgroup seems to have a lot of posters that seem to be obsessed
with power cuts that occur just as they are about to use or half way
down their stairs.


I reckon the best time for a power cut is when I'm on the stairs. The
non-maintained light over the CU under the stairs leaks enough light to
show me the way down - with the bonus that I don't have to try to
remember what I was going up/down for

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 13:59:57 -0800, spuorgelgoog wrote:

On Monday, 18 February 2019 20:47:53 UTC, ARW wrote:
I wonder how Brian Gaff manages to get down his stairs?
I can get down my stairs without falling over in a power cut.

I can too, but get disorientated if the light suddenly fails and I have
to move from visual to tactile navigation.

Actually I walked into the bus stop this morning. Just because I can see
something doesn't mean I can see how far away it is.

The point is also that it leaks enough light to both floors to make life
a little easier.


--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 18/02/2019 22:24, ARW wrote:
On 18/02/2019 21:59, wrote:
On Monday, 18 February 2019 20:47:53 UTC, ARWÂ* wrote:
I wonder how Brian Gaff manages to get down his stairs?
I can get down my stairs without falling over in a power cut.

I can too, but get disorientated if the light suddenly fails and I
have to move from visual to tactile navigation.


This newsgroup seems to have a lot of posters that seem to be obsessed
with power cuts that occur just as they are about to use or half way
down their stairs.

It doesn't worry me, but to be fair, I suppose that an electrical fault
leading to a fire could lead to power failure just when you need to see.

I have certainly had the lights trip just as I turned them on on a
number of occassions. Once when I came in in the early hours of the
morning, switched the hall/landing lights on and had a bulb blow and
trip the breaker, so I was stood in darkness, with the alarm beeping and
couldn't see the panel to turn it off! I couldn't do it by touch either,
as it was a membrane keyboard and totally flat.

I was sure that the neighbours wouldn't appreciate a middle of the night
alarm, but was luckily able to turn the kitchen light on and kick the
door open a few times while I entered the code, as the hall/landing
lights were on the upstairs circuit.

SteveW

On 17/02/2019 22:27, Jeff Phillips wrote:
One of our bathrooms is internal

The rest are out in the garden? g

Andy

In article ,
ARW writes:
On 17/02/2019 17:47, Jeff Phillips wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 16:33:41 +0000, ARW wrote:

Any gotchas or is this a genuine question?

Apologies; genuine question! :-)

Doing a fair bit of DIY (including wiring) and have decided to replace
the current whole-house RCD'd CU and so with everything out thought I'd
ask for suggestions.


My suggestion is to put the kitchen sockets on their own RCBO and
consider doubling up the smokes with a lighting circuit of your choice.

My general suggestions are that fridge, freezer, central heating
(frost protection), and life support systems (such as tropical fish)
should not share an RCD with anything (or even each other).
Outdoor circuits should not share an RCD with indoor circuits.

Personally, I only ever install RCBOs, never an RCD covering multiple
circuits. They're cheap enough now (and I did this even when they
were expensive).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
ARW writes:
On 17/02/2019 17:47, Jeff Phillips wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 16:33:41 +0000, ARW wrote:

Any gotchas or is this a genuine question?

Apologies; genuine question! :-)

Doing a fair bit of DIY (including wiring) and have decided to replace
the current whole-house RCD'd CU and so with everything out thought I'd
ask for suggestions.


My suggestion is to put the kitchen sockets on their own RCBO and
consider doubling up the smokes with a lighting circuit of your choice.

My general suggestions are that fridge, freezer, central heating
(frost protection), and life support systems (such as tropical fish)
should not share an RCD with anything (or even each other).
Outdoor circuits should not share an RCD with indoor circuits.

Personally, I only ever install RCBOs, never an RCD covering multiple
circuits. They're cheap enough now (and I did this even when they
were expensive).

40 years ago, when I put the CU in this house, I'm not sure RCBOs even
existed

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle