From another newsgroup...

Rob
22:16 (34 minutes ago)
- show quoted text -
It may matter. When the current is far from sinusoidal, the computed
power may be much more when the calculation is not done carefully, or
when there are problems with the filtering.

A while ago there was some local coverage here in the Netherlands on a
consumer tv programme about the fact that so many customers observe an
increased energy consumption when they have a "smart meter" installed.
Usually before that, they had an electromechanical meter of the
"Ferraris" type, and now it is replaced with an electronic meter with
remote readout capabilties (called "smart meter" here).

Of course the difference is not related to the remote readout but to
the electronic measurement technology.

I studied the relevant regulations for an electricity meter and also
mailed with the responsible person at the authority. It turns out that
nowhere in the regulations the non-sinusoidal current problem is
discussed. The only thing appearing in the standards is the handling
of Cos-Phi. The meter should indicate kWh, not kVAh.

However, in today's households there tends to be a non-sinusoidal
current due to small switchmode powersupplies (that are not mandatory
to have powerfactor correction), LED lamps, etc.
The result is that the electronic meter registers more than the Ferraris
meter. How much more, that depends on the exact make and model of meter.

But that is all within spec, because THERE IS NO SPEC.
When you claim the meter is wrong, it is being checked with a resistive
load and of course that is metered correctly...

The difficult problem of course is: what is reasonable. One could also
argue that the Ferraris meter displayed a too-low value, as the
electricity companies have to deal with the non-sinusoidal current
which causes them all kinds of problems. The customer should pay for
that or stop doing it.

The last word has not been said about it, but for now I have deferred
the change to a smart meter, and so have many others.

wrote:

A while ago there was some local coverage here in the Netherlands on a
consumer tv programme about the fact that so many customers observe an
increased energy consumption when they have a "smart meter" installed.

Not related to smart meters as such, but all electronic meters
(including smart meters).

Old news we covered it here back in the day

https://www.utwente.nl/en/news/!/2017/3/313543/electronic-energy-meters-false-readings-almost-six-times-higher-than-actual-energy-consumption

On Monday, 7 January 2019 04:37:54 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

A while ago there was some local coverage here in the Netherlands on a
consumer tv programme about the fact that so many customers observe an
increased energy consumption when they have a "smart meter" installed.

Not related to smart meters as such, but all electronic meters
(including smart meters).

Old news we covered it here back in the day

https://www.utwente.nl/en/news/!/2017/3/313543/electronic-energy-meters-false-readings-almost-six-times-higher-than-actual-energy-consumption

Entirely spurious.
Which household had 47 LED light bulbs for a start?

What proportion of the load is electronically switched? (Negligable).

So any inccuracies would be negligable too.

ALL electricity meters are inaccurate on very small loads.

Nothing to do with the meters being "smart" anyway.

You only have to look at the setup. The meters are wired with "bell wire". Clearly only been tested on light loads.

On 07/01/2019 07:33, harry wrote:
On Monday, 7 January 2019 04:37:54 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

A while ago there was some local coverage here in the Netherlands on a
consumer tv programme about the fact that so many customers observe an
increased energy consumption when they have a "smart meter" installed.

Not related to smart meters as such, but all electronic meters
(including smart meters).

Old news we covered it here back in the day

https://www.utwente.nl/en/news/!/2017/3/313543/electronic-energy-meters-false-readings-almost-six-times-higher-than-actual-energy-consumption

Entirely spurious.
Which household had 47 LED light bulbs for a start?

What proportion of the load is electronically switched? (Negligable).

So any inccuracies would be negligable too.

ALL electricity meters are inaccurate on very small loads.

Nothing to do with the meters being "smart" anyway.

You only have to look at the setup. The meters are wired with "bell wire". Clearly only been tested on light loads.


Round objects.

I suggest that - as so often - the truth is neither "the sky is falling"
nor "we live in the best of all possible worlds". The standards for
(and testing of) meters need to change but the risks of big errors in
practice are (so far) small.

See eg review paper last year (with one author at NPL):

https://pure.strath.ac.uk/portal/files/72407621/Quijano_Cetina_etal_IUPEC_2017_A_review_of_electri cal_metering_accuracy_standards_in_the_context_of_ dynamic_power_quality.pdf

conclusion

"The Power Quality of the Electrical Grid, due to the effect of diverse
emerging technologies and devices, are constantly changing the waveform
conditions of voltage and current. These changes are more significant in
the low-voltage electrical systems.

Current standards related to the accuracy of Electricity meters for
revenue allows a measurement error up to ±2.0%, with a waveform
distortion factor less than 3%. Such conditions are not representatives
of the real working conditions.

Some Static meters, exposed to unlikely (but still possible) extreme
working conditions, have presented high measurement errors in the
presence of distorted waveforms.

New accuracy requirements should ensure Electricity meters never exceeds
the MPE at any working condition. Regulatory bodies should promptly
agree in how standards will include accuracy tests for existing and
emerging distorted waveform conditions for an Electricity fair trade. "


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Yes this strange issue came up many years ago when I worked at a factory
making colour tvs. Back in those days valves were the main active device and
all the sets tended to use autotransformers so the chassis was live in
effect.
We had a policy of burning in tvs before shipping as this tended to weed
out the faulty ones. The CEGB as it was then complained about big hits on
one mains supply which made the load 'difficult'
The company had to move the racks to different mains phases on different
supplies. It cost a packet!
Then there were all the tubes of lighting to be considered which of course
were the cheapest crappyest they could get, these also had power factor
issues as well.

I had not realised that switch mode supplies had similar problems, and heck
there are a lot of those in almost everything these days.
Brian

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From another newsgroup...

Rob
22:16 (34 minutes ago)
- show quoted text -
It may matter. When the current is far from sinusoidal, the computed
power may be much more when the calculation is not done carefully, or
when there are problems with the filtering.

A while ago there was some local coverage here in the Netherlands on a
consumer tv programme about the fact that so many customers observe an
increased energy consumption when they have a "smart meter" installed.
Usually before that, they had an electromechanical meter of the
"Ferraris" type, and now it is replaced with an electronic meter with
remote readout capabilties (called "smart meter" here).

Of course the difference is not related to the remote readout but to
the electronic measurement technology.

I studied the relevant regulations for an electricity meter and also
mailed with the responsible person at the authority. It turns out that
nowhere in the regulations the non-sinusoidal current problem is
discussed. The only thing appearing in the standards is the handling
of Cos-Phi. The meter should indicate kWh, not kVAh.

However, in today's households there tends to be a non-sinusoidal
current due to small switchmode powersupplies (that are not mandatory
to have powerfactor correction), LED lamps, etc.
The result is that the electronic meter registers more than the Ferraris
meter. How much more, that depends on the exact make and model of meter.

But that is all within spec, because THERE IS NO SPEC.
When you claim the meter is wrong, it is being checked with a resistive
load and of course that is metered correctly...

The difficult problem of course is: what is reasonable. One could also
argue that the Ferraris meter displayed a too-low value, as the
electricity companies have to deal with the non-sinusoidal current
which causes them all kinds of problems. The customer should pay for
that or stop doing it.

The last word has not been said about it, but for now I have deferred
the change to a smart meter, and so have many others.

On 07/01/2019 07:33, harry wrote:
On Monday, 7 January 2019 04:37:54 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

A while ago there was some local coverage here in the Netherlands on a
consumer tv programme about the fact that so many customers observe an
increased energy consumption when they have a "smart meter" installed.

Not related to smart meters as such, but all electronic meters
(including smart meters).

Old news we covered it here back in the day

https://www.utwente.nl/en/news/!/2017/3/313543/electronic-energy-meters-false-readings-almost-six-times-higher-than-actual-energy-consumption

Entirely spurious.
Which household had 47 LED light bulbs for a start?

I have a small house in Spain. I think I have 32 LED light bulbs in it
not counting the kitchen counter lights. In my house in the UK there are
11 GU12s all now LED in the kitchen alone, 4 LED floods outside plus
five garden lights.

I many rooms we have "up lighters" which have multiple "bulbs" in the,
So in total we have somewhere around 45-50 LED bulbs in the whole house.
We don't put

We don't switch them all on at once of course!.

Also note that the meters were made no later than 2014 and most have
been re-designed since.


What proportion of the load is electronically switched? (Negligable).

So any inccuracies would be negligable too.

ALL electricity meters are inaccurate on very small loads.

Nothing to do with the meters being "smart" anyway.

You only have to look at the setup. The meters are wired with "bell wire". Clearly only been tested on light loads.

wrote on 06/01/2019 :
The difficult problem of course is: what is reasonable. One could also
argue that the Ferraris meter displayed a too-low value, as the
electricity companies have to deal with the non-sinusoidal current
which causes them all kinds of problems. The customer should pay for
that or stop doing it.

The last word has not been said about it, but for now I have deferred
the change to a smart meter, and so have many others.

No meter, Smart or dumb, will ever give an absolutely precise
consumption figure, so the points made are entirely spurious.

All types are designed so as to give an 'accurate enough' charge on a
typical load, rather than the exceptional loads. Which basically means
some load types will be undercharged for, some overcharged for. Make an
effort to deliberately run the 'over charged for' load types and you
will be over charged, no surprise there.

wrote on 06/01/2019 :
The difficult problem of course is: what is reasonable. One could also
argue that the Ferraris meter displayed a too-low value, as the
electricity companies have to deal with the non-sinusoidal current
which causes them all kinds of problems. The customer should pay for
that or stop doing it.

The last word has not been said about it, but for now I have deferred
the change to a smart meter, and so have many others.


That's probably meant to be a 'Ferranti' meter type referred to above. Not
aware of a Ferraris meter type

Andrew

On Monday, 7 January 2019 08:43:56 UTC, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes this strange issue came up many years ago when I worked at a factory
making colour tvs. Back in those days valves were the main active device and
all the sets tended to use autotransformers so the chassis was live in
effect.
Would that have been the Decca factory? I thought they used half-wave
rectification for the HT and series connected filaments.
Half-wave rectification would certainly have caused problems at the
substation if they were all connected up with chassis to neutral.
John

Andrew Mawson wrote:
wrote on 06/01/2019 :
The difficult problem of course is: what is reasonable. One could also
argue that the Ferraris meter displayed a too-low value, as the
electricity companies have to deal with the non-sinusoidal current
which causes them all kinds of problems.* The customer should pay for
that or stop doing it.

The last word has not been said about it, but for now I have deferred
the change to a smart meter, and so have many others.


That's probably meant to be a 'Ferranti' meter type referred to above.
Not aware of a Ferraris meter type

Andrew

They go faster.

On Mon, 07 Jan 2019 11:45:55 GMT, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

wrote on 06/01/2019 :
The difficult problem of course is: what is reasonable. One could also
argue that the Ferraris meter displayed a too-low value, as the
electricity companies have to deal with the non-sinusoidal current
which causes them all kinds of problems. The customer should pay for
that or stop doing it.

The last word has not been said about it, but for now I have deferred
the change to a smart meter, and so have many others.

No meter, Smart or dumb, will ever give an absolutely precise
consumption figure, so the points made are entirely spurious.

All types are designed so as to give an 'accurate enough' charge on a
typical load, rather than the exceptional loads. Which basically means
some load types will be undercharged for, some overcharged for. Make an
effort to deliberately run the 'over charged for' load types and you
will be over charged, no surprise there.

Trouble is, if the overcharging is on SMPSUs and the like, I have about 35 -
40 LEDs (only about 125W total load though), TV, PVR, AVR PC etc., microwave
oven, fluorescent tubes in places (little used - not worth swapping for
LED). Resistive loads are kettle and shower unit; cooker has spiders and
moths in it; washing machine; all intermittent for short periods.
Motors: pump in boiler.
So the bias is towards SMPSUs - difficult to do anything about that.
Most LED lamps seem to have a PF similar to CFLs - about 0.5.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

PeterC wrote on 07/01/2019 :
So the bias is towards SMPSUs - difficult to do anything about that.
Most LED lamps seem to have a PF similar to CFLs - about 0.5.

--

At this moment, 19:30 on an evening - there are 5x LED's on, 2x switch
mode powered TV's and this laptop, SMPSU x3 for routers, various other
small SMPSU's with the CH pump cutting on and off frequently on the
stat. + the boilers SMPSU on constantly. No resistive loads at all that
I can think of.

A while ago I replaced all of the regular on lamps, with LED versions
and they made quite a difference to my bill in winter.

My bills are quite small, so why worry?