On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 08:15:17 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 11:11:19 UTC+1, MM wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 09:40:07 +0100, Nightjar
wrote:

On 25/09/2018 09:14, Brian Gaff wrote:
We need to define democracy. It seems to mean whatever gets them back into
power as many politicians like many rock stars start to believe they are the
saviour of society and cannot possibly be wrong.

To the Athenians, who invented it, democracy meant giving every citizen*
the right to vote on every issue - effectively a referendum on every
decision.

* Citizens had to be male, property owners and have completed military
training.

To my mind, democracy means having the right to change one's mind when
the facts change. Already half the lifetime of a normal session of
government (five years) has elapsed and we know a *heck* of a lot more
now about the ramifications of leaving. A new poll of Labour Party
members shows that over 80% want now to remain in the EU. Business
Insider UK reported on 4 September that 2.6 million voters have
switched support from leave to remain.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/this-p...18-9?r=US&IR=T

MM

The facts have not changed since the referendum..

But the fact is, many more voters are now aware of the facts.

Any future changes will be for the worse.
Eg, EUSSR army.

Why is that a change for the worse, given the threat Putin poses?

Is that the best reason you can come up with for voting to leave?

MM

"MM" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 08:15:17 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 11:11:19 UTC+1, MM wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 09:40:07 +0100, Nightjar
wrote:

On 25/09/2018 09:14, Brian Gaff wrote:
We need to define democracy. It seems to mean whatever gets them back
into
power as many politicians like many rock stars start to believe they
are the
saviour of society and cannot possibly be wrong.

To the Athenians, who invented it, democracy meant giving every
citizen*
the right to vote on every issue - effectively a referendum on every
decision.

* Citizens had to be male, property owners and have completed military
training.

To my mind, democracy means having the right to change one's mind when
the facts change. Already half the lifetime of a normal session of
government (five years) has elapsed and we know a *heck* of a lot more
now about the ramifications of leaving. A new poll of Labour Party
members shows that over 80% want now to remain in the EU. Business
Insider UK reported on 4 September that 2.6 million voters have
switched support from leave to remain.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/this-p...18-9?r=US&IR=T

MM

The facts have not changed since the referendum..

But the fact is, many more voters are now aware of the facts.

Any future changes will be for the worse.
Eg, EUSSR army.

Why is that a change for the worse, given the threat Putin poses?

Putin is no threat to the EU and NATO is a much more
viable deterrent to Putin than any EU army can ever be.

Is that the best reason you can come up with for voting to leave?

No,. the best reasons are that the UK no longer has to
allow any EUian that decides to move to the UK to do
that, and no longer has to allow any unelected EU
bureaucrat to have any say what so ever on UK policy.

On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 19:28:22 +1000, 543dsa, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rot Speed, wrote:


But the fact is, many more voters are now aware of the facts.

Any future changes will be for the worse.
Eg, EUSSR army.

Why is that a change for the worse, given the threat Putin poses?

Putin is no threat to the EU and NATO is a much more
viable deterrent to Putin than any EU army can ever be.

Ozzie "Brexiteer" Rot doesn't like the idea of a European army! LOL

Is that the best reason you can come up with for voting to leave?

No,. the best reasons are that the UK no longer has to
allow any EUian that decides to move to the UK to do
that, and no longer has to allow any unelected EU
bureaucrat to have any say what so ever on UK policy.

Driveling senile Ozzie "Brexiteer" doesn't have to bear the consequences of
his "voting" for leave! LMAO

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , MM
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 08:15:17 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 11:11:19 UTC+1, MM wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 09:40:07 +0100, Nightjar
wrote:

On 25/09/2018 09:14, Brian Gaff wrote:
We need to define democracy. It seems to mean whatever gets them
back
into
power as many politicians like many rock stars start to believe they
are
the
saviour of society and cannot possibly be wrong.

To the Athenians, who invented it, democracy meant giving every
citizen* the right to vote on every issue - effectively a referendum
on every decision.

* Citizens had to be male, property owners and have completed military
training.

To my mind, democracy means having the right to change one's mind when
the facts change. Already half the lifetime of a normal session of
government (five years) has elapsed and we know a *heck* of a lot more
now about the ramifications of leaving. A new poll of Labour Party
members shows that over 80% want now to remain in the EU. Business
Insider UK reported on 4 September that 2.6 million voters have
switched support from leave to remain.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/this-p...it-voters-now-
want-to-remain-in-the-eu-2018-9?r=US&IR=T

MM

The facts have not changed since the referendum..

But the fact is, many more voters are now aware of the facts.

Any future changes will be for the worse.
Eg, EUSSR army.

Why is that a change for the worse, given the threat Putin poses?

We already have NATO. What we don't have, are that many countries other
than the US and the UK who are ready to put their defence money where
their mouth is. So you might be entitled to wonder what the "EU Army"
is for.

So the EU doesnt have to get the US to agree with what its used for.
It did in fact take a long time before NATO got involved in the fiasco
in Bosnia when Clinton was Prez. And Ike made Britain and France
back off militarily in Suez.

On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 23:40:39 +1000, 543dsa, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rot Speed, wrote:


Why is that a change for the worse, given the threat Putin poses?

We already have NATO. What we don't have, are that many countries other
than the US and the UK who are ready to put their defence money where
their mouth is. So you might be entitled to wonder what the "EU Army"
is for.

So the EU doesn¢t have to get the US to agree with what its used for.

Senile idiot always has ALL the answers, off the cuff! LOL

--
pamela about Rot Speed:
"His off the cuff expertise demonstrates how little he knows..."
MID:

On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 19:28:22 +1000, "543dsa" wrote:



"MM" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 08:15:17 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 11:11:19 UTC+1, MM wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 09:40:07 +0100, Nightjar
wrote:

On 25/09/2018 09:14, Brian Gaff wrote:
We need to define democracy. It seems to mean whatever gets them back
into
power as many politicians like many rock stars start to believe they
are the
saviour of society and cannot possibly be wrong.

To the Athenians, who invented it, democracy meant giving every
citizen*
the right to vote on every issue - effectively a referendum on every
decision.

* Citizens had to be male, property owners and have completed military
training.

To my mind, democracy means having the right to change one's mind when
the facts change. Already half the lifetime of a normal session of
government (five years) has elapsed and we know a *heck* of a lot more
now about the ramifications of leaving. A new poll of Labour Party
members shows that over 80% want now to remain in the EU. Business
Insider UK reported on 4 September that 2.6 million voters have
switched support from leave to remain.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/this-p...18-9?r=US&IR=T

MM

The facts have not changed since the referendum..

But the fact is, many more voters are now aware of the facts.

Any future changes will be for the worse.
Eg, EUSSR army.

Why is that a change for the worse, given the threat Putin poses?

Putin is no threat to the EU and NATO is a much more
viable deterrent to Putin than any EU army can ever be.

And you know this how, exactly? Especially since you have no idea how
an EU army would be constructed.

Plus, if Putin is not a threat to the EU as you claim, despite his
continual meddling militarily in other nations' affairs, why have we
now established a presence in the Baltic states?

"Operation CABRIT is the codename for the British Army’s operational
deployment to Eastern Europe as part of NATO’s Enhanced Forward
Presence (Spearhead Force)."


Is that the best reason you can come up with for voting to leave?

No,. the best reasons are that the UK no longer has to
allow any EUian that decides to move to the UK to do
that, and no longer has to allow any unelected EU
bureaucrat to have any say what so ever on UK policy.

That is not what the Chequers proposal gives you. The European Court
of Justice will very much still be involved in regulating the Common
Rulebook that Theresa May has come up with.

Do you still not understand what you were voting for?

MM

On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 12:20:27 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , MM
wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 08:15:17 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 11:11:19 UTC+1, MM wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 09:40:07 +0100, Nightjar
wrote:

On 25/09/2018 09:14, Brian Gaff wrote:
We need to define democracy. It seems to mean whatever gets them back
into
power as many politicians like many rock stars start to believe they are
the
saviour of society and cannot possibly be wrong.

To the Athenians, who invented it, democracy meant giving every citizen*
the right to vote on every issue - effectively a referendum on every
decision.

* Citizens had to be male, property owners and have completed military
training.

To my mind, democracy means having the right to change one's mind when
the facts change. Already half the lifetime of a normal session of
government (five years) has elapsed and we know a *heck* of a lot more
now about the ramifications of leaving. A new poll of Labour Party
members shows that over 80% want now to remain in the EU. Business
Insider UK reported on 4 September that 2.6 million voters have
switched support from leave to remain.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/this-p...it-voters-now-
want-to-remain-in-the-eu-2018-9?r=US&IR=T

MM

The facts have not changed since the referendum..

But the fact is, many more voters are now aware of the facts.

Any future changes will be for the worse.
Eg, EUSSR army.

Why is that a change for the worse, given the threat Putin poses?

We already have NATO. What we don't have, are that many countries
other than the US and the UK who are ready to put their defence money
where their mouth is. So you might be entitled to wonder what the "EU Army" is for.

The reason you think government is the solution is because you think freedom
is the problem. But the truth is that government ensures that the most evil,
ruthless people end up in control, because the state is a single point of failure,
and a high-value target of corruption.

Alan Lovejoy

If government is NOT the solution, which form of anarchy are you
proposing?

MM

PS: Stop trying to make part of your posts disappear with a hyphen!

MM wrote:

PS: Stop trying to make part of your posts disappear with a hyphen!

It's a quote in his sig.

On 27/09/18 09:27, MM wrote:
If government is NOT the solution, which form of anarchy are you
proposing?

Well of course thereby hangs the whole tale of civilisation.

The move from the anarchic hunter-gatherer which is essentially the
doctrine of pure communism.


Civilisation needs to introduce specialisation and bureaucracy and some
form of hierarchy.


The problem is that government has ceased to be a solution to a problem,
and has become a solution that needs to create problems to solve in
order to justify itself.

The whole of modern socialism is in fact is just about creating a
reason to justify 'more government'

The whole of project fear is about creating a reason to justify 'more EU
government'.

Government is the solution to a little, but its the problem of a lot.

Government as a principle is fine, its the type and quantity of it that
is the issue.

Over governed civilisations are fragile and prone to collapse.

Am I opposed to a European Union?

No.

Just THIS European Union.



--
"If you dont read the news paper, you are un-informed. If you read the
news paper, you are mis-informed."

Mark Twain

"MM" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 19:28:22 +1000, "543dsa" wrote:



"MM" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 08:15:17 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 11:11:19 UTC+1, MM wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 09:40:07 +0100, Nightjar
wrote:

On 25/09/2018 09:14, Brian Gaff wrote:
We need to define democracy. It seems to mean whatever gets them
back
into
power as many politicians like many rock stars start to believe
they
are the
saviour of society and cannot possibly be wrong.

To the Athenians, who invented it, democracy meant giving every
citizen*
the right to vote on every issue - effectively a referendum on every
decision.

* Citizens had to be male, property owners and have completed
military
training.

To my mind, democracy means having the right to change one's mind when
the facts change. Already half the lifetime of a normal session of
government (five years) has elapsed and we know a *heck* of a lot more
now about the ramifications of leaving. A new poll of Labour Party
members shows that over 80% want now to remain in the EU. Business
Insider UK reported on 4 September that 2.6 million voters have
switched support from leave to remain.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/this-p...18-9?r=US&IR=T

MM

The facts have not changed since the referendum..

But the fact is, many more voters are now aware of the facts.

Any future changes will be for the worse.
Eg, EUSSR army.

Why is that a change for the worse, given the threat Putin poses?

Putin is no threat to the EU and NATO is a much more
viable deterrent to Putin than any EU army can ever be.

And you know this how, exactly?

Have a look at what happened in the second Gulf War.

Especially since you have no idea how
an EU army would be constructed.

We do know what is possible.

Plus, if Putin is not a threat to the EU as you claim, despite
his continual meddling militarily in other nations' affairs,
why have we now established a presence in the Baltic states?

Who is this 'we' ?

"Operation CABRIT is the codename for the British Army's
operational deployment to Eastern Europe as part of
NATO's Enhanced Forward Presence (Spearhead Force)."

Fat lot of good that ever did with the Crimea and the Ukraine.

Is that the best reason you can come up with for voting to leave?

No,. the best reasons are that the UK no longer has to
allow any EUian that decides to move to the UK to do
that, and no longer has to allow any unelected EU
bureaucrat to have any say what so ever on UK policy.

That is not what the Chequers proposal gives you.

Yes, but that is because that fool May is a remainer
who clearly wants a brexit in name only.

The European Court of Justice will very much
still be involved in regulating the Common
Rulebook that Theresa May has come up with.

Not if the EU tells May to shove Chequers where the sun don't shine.

Do you still not understand what you were voting for?

I didn't vote, stupid.

On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 19:22:34 +1000, 543dsa, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rot Speed, wrote:

FLUSH troll ****

....and much better air in here again!

--
"Anonymous" to trolling senile Rot Speed:
"You can **** off as you know less than pig **** you sad
little ignorant ****."
MID:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Why is that a change for the worse, given the threat Putin poses?

We already have NATO. What we don't have, are that many countries other
than the US and the UK who are ready to put their defence money where
their mouth is. So you might be entitled to wonder what the "EU Army"
is for.

And just how long do you think the US under Trump is going to continue
being the major contributor to NATO? After all, Putin is his pal.

--
*Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Why is that a change for the worse, given the threat Putin poses?

We already have NATO. What we don't have, are that many countries other
than the US and the UK who are ready to put their defence money where
their mouth is. So you might be entitled to wonder what the "EU Army"
is for.

And just how long do you think the US under Trump is going to continue
being the major contributor to NATO? After all, Putin is his pal.

That isnt a decision that Trump gets to make, that is decided by Congress.

On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 05:11:51 +1000, Andew Jones, better known as
cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot Speed, wrote:


And just how long do you think the US under Trump is going to continue
being the major contributor to NATO? After all, Putin is his pal.

That isnt a decision that Trump gets to make, that is decided by Congress.

Nym-shifting again, ****ed up senile desperate troll? LOL

--
Bill Wright to Rot Speed:
"That confirms my opinion that you are a despicable little ****."
MID:

MM wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 08:15:17 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Tuesday, 25 September 2018 11:11:19 UTC+1, MM wrote:
On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 09:40:07 +0100, Nightjar
wrote:

On 25/09/2018 09:14, Brian Gaff wrote:
We need to define democracy. It seems to mean whatever gets them back into
power as many politicians like many rock stars start to believe they are the
saviour of society and cannot possibly be wrong.

To the Athenians, who invented it, democracy meant giving every citizen*
the right to vote on every issue - effectively a referendum on every
decision.

* Citizens had to be male, property owners and have completed military
training.

To my mind, democracy means having the right to change one's mind when
the facts change. Already half the lifetime of a normal session of
government (five years) has elapsed and we know a *heck* of a lot more
now about the ramifications of leaving. A new poll of Labour Party
members shows that over 80% want now to remain in the EU. Business
Insider UK reported on 4 September that 2.6 million voters have
switched support from leave to remain.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/this-p...18-9?r=US&IR=T

MM

The facts have not changed since the referendum..

But the fact is, many more voters are now aware of the facts.

So they would vote to leave.


Any future changes will be for the worse.
Eg, EUSSR army.

Why is that a change for the worse, given the threat Putin poses?

Is that the best reason you can come up with for voting to leave?

MM

In article ,
FMurtz wrote:
But the fact is, many more voters are now aware of the facts.

So they would vote to leave.

Are you Trump?

--
*I like cats, too. Let's exchange recipes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.