More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.
With all the implications that has on the many small companies who supply
then with parts.

Just how much more 'good' news can we stand?

--
*Gravity is a myth, the earth sucks *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

You've overlooked the "if" in their statement, nobody knows how that
will end up, so just sit tight?

The aussies (who have more recent experience at negotiating trade deals
than us) claim you should ignore everything that's said before the final
three weeks to the deadline as posturing ...

On 11/09/2018 17:58, Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

You've overlooked the "if" in their statement, nobody knows how that
will end up, so just sit tight?

The aussies (who have more recent experience at negotiating trade deals
than us) claim you should ignore everything that's said before the final
three weeks to the deadline as posturing ...


Sounds about right.

--
Cheers, Rob

On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 17:58:39 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as
now.

You've overlooked the "if" in their statement, nobody knows how that
will end up, so just sit tight?

The aussies (who have more recent experience at negotiating trade deals
than us) claim you should ignore everything that's said before the final
three weeks to the deadline as posturing ...

I think we should adopt a bit of Trumpian guile here with all these liars
that claim they're going to **** off abroad: just quietly inform them
that once we are out, we will be free to place tariffs or impose quotas
on imported goods from suppliers who attempted to do the dirty on us by
signing up with Project Fear. It's only fair after all. ****-weak Theresa
the Appeaser hasn't got the balls for such tactics, but there are others
waiting in the wings who will not shy away from doing what needs to be
done. Sooner she pulls up her knickers and ****s off, the better.




--
NO DEAL! NO SURRENDER TO THE EUSSR!

On 11/09/18 17:58, Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

You've overlooked the "if" in their statement, nobody knows how that
will end up, so just sit tight?

The aussies (who have more recent experience at negotiating trade deals
than us) claim you should ignore everything that's said before the final
three weeks to the deadline as posturing ...


That's alright then. We will have a bit more total uncertainty, that's
all. Just keep loading the freezer with food and medicine and hope not
to lose your job. No worries there?

It's become a complete joke. I hear the people of North Somerset are
going to form a mob of sans-cullottes to scale the walls of the
Reely-Smug estate and burn his chateau.

Tim w

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on the 20%
that they export back to the UK instead of the 20% that they export to
Europe, after having paid out hundreds of millions to move their factory

They are BLUFFING

tim

On 11/09/18 18:20, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 17:58:39 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as
now.

You've overlooked the "if" in their statement, nobody knows how that
will end up, so just sit tight?

The aussies (who have more recent experience at negotiating trade deals
than us) claim you should ignore everything that's said before the final
three weeks to the deadline as posturing ...

I think we should adopt a bit of Trumpian guile here with all these liars
that claim they're going to **** off abroad: just quietly inform them
that once we are out, we will be free to place tariffs or impose quotas
on imported goods from suppliers who attempted to do the dirty on us by
signing up with Project Fear. It's only fair after all. ****-weak Theresa
the Appeaser hasn't got the balls for such tactics, but there are others
waiting in the wings who will not shy away from doing what needs to be
done. Sooner she pulls up her knickers and ****s off, the better.


It doesn't matter who tells you does it? they are all liars and elitists
and it's just project fear. Stick your fingers in your ears, shut your
eyes and sing 'God Save the Queen' as loudly as you can and maybe it
will all go away.

Tim W

On 11/09/2018 20:43, tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on the
20% that they export back to the UK instead of the 20% that they export
to Europe, after having paid out hundreds of millions to move their factory

They are BLUFFING

tim





You are stupid if you believe that.

They have told you the extra costs they will suffer from if they don't
get a free trade deal and what is likely to happen.

If you want to produce figures about how much they will lose as a result
of no trade deal feel free to post some facts.

Remember its not just tariffs on cars its all the extra costs of customs
clearance and tariffs on the bits moving around before the cars get
built. You don't think that the cars are built in Britain from British
parts do you?

"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on the
20% that they export back to the UK

You havent established that there will be any tariff
on EU cars imported into the UK after BRexit or that
it will be at the same rate as the EU charges either.

instead of the 20% that they export to
Europe, after having paid out hundreds of millions to move their factory

They are BLUFFING

Yes.

On 11/09/18 20:51, TimW wrote:
It doesn't matter who tells you does it? they are all liars and elitists
and it's just project fear. Stick your fingers in your ears, shut your
eyes and sing 'God Save the Queen' as loudly as you can and maybe it
will all go away.

It doesn't matter who tells you does it? they are all liars and elitists
and it's just project fear. Stick your fingers in your ears, shut your
eyes and sing 'the EU is wonderful' as loudly as you can and maybe it
will all go away.


--
How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.

Adolf Hitler

On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 20:43:34 +0100, tim... wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as
now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on the
20%
that they export back to the UK instead of the 20% that they export to
Europe, after having paid out hundreds of millions to move their factory

They are BLUFFING

And they will also be able to use the existing EU export agreements to
many countries - which the UK hasn't started thinking about negotiating.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 12/09/18 00:36, Bob Eager wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 20:43:34 +0100, tim... wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as
now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on the
20%
that they export back to the UK instead of the 20% that they export to
Europe, after having paid out hundreds of millions to move their factory

They are BLUFFING

And they will also be able to use the existing EU export agreements to
many countries - which the UK hasn't started thinking about negotiating.

Which the UK has not publicly announced for fear of upsetting the EU and
sending it into another temper tantrum.


--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

On 11/09/2018 22:29, dennis@home wrote:
On 11/09/2018 20:43, tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK
to the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on
the 20% that they export back to the UK instead of the 20% that they
export to Europe, after having paid out hundreds of millions to move
their factory

They are BLUFFING

tim





You are stupid if you believe that.

They have told you the extra costs they will suffer from if they don't
get a free trade deal and what is likely to happen.

If you want to produce figures about how much they will lose as a result
of no trade deal feel free to post some facts.

Remember its not just tariffs on cars its all the extra costs of customs
clearance and tariffs on the bits moving around before the cars get
built. You don't think that the cars are built in Britain from British
parts do you?



You don't believe that all these parts current travel across borders
without paperwork and EU bureaucracy taking place in back offices do
you? Many parts are sourced outside of the EU even though they may be
branded with a company name that is associated with a EU country.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
On 11/09/2018 20:43, tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on the
20% that they export back to the UK instead of the 20% that they export
to Europe, after having paid out hundreds of millions to move their
factory

They are BLUFFING

tim





You are stupid if you believe that.

They have told you the extra costs they will suffer from if they don't get
a free trade deal and what is likely to happen.

If you want to produce figures about how much they will lose as a result
of no trade deal feel free to post some facts.

Remember its not just tariffs on cars its all the extra costs of customs
clearance and tariffs on the bits moving around before the cars get built.

which also go both ways,

some of the parts are currently imported from rEU

some will be exported from the UK, if they move.

You don't think that the cars are built in Britain from British parts do
you?

we have a significant automotive parts "industry"

And the point is that they will have to suffer those costs in one direction
OR the other, they either pay the additional costs of selling in the EU from
the UK, or the PAY the costs of selling to the UK from the EU.

If a company does 90% of its business in rEU and 10% in the UK then it makes
sense to move, as they will effectively save the costs on 80% of their sales

but if the UK/EU sales are the same the costs saving from moving will be
ZERO

tim

"Josh Nack" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on the
20% that they export back to the UK

You havent established that there will be any tariff
on EU cars imported into the UK after BRexit or that
it will be at the same rate as the EU charges either.

but it will be

It's a nonsense for it to be otherwise, as we will have no negotiation chips
to entice ROW to enter into an FTA if we don't charge those tariffs.

tim

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 20:43:34 +0100, tim... wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as
now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on the
20%
that they export back to the UK instead of the 20% that they export to
Europe, after having paid out hundreds of millions to move their factory

They are BLUFFING

And they will also be able to use the existing EU export agreements to
many countries - which the UK hasn't started thinking about negotiating.

we've HAVE started to think about it

It's just that we cannot sign the deals until we know what the future
arrangements with the EU will be

but it's pretty moot. JLR doesn't sell many cars to the countries on the
list

tim

"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Josh Nack" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on the
20% that they export back to the UK

You havent established that there will be any tariff
on EU cars imported into the UK after BRexit or that
it will be at the same rate as the EU charges either.

but it will be

You don't know that.

It's a nonsense for it to be otherwise, as we will have no negotiation
chips to entice ROW to enter into an FTA if we don't charge those tariffs.

Australia has in fact chosen to scrap its tariffs on cars
and had previously scrapped its tariffs on all sorts of
other stuff and didn't see the need for any bargaining
chips and continued to pursue free trade agreements
with various other countrys like Japan, Korea etc and
has just signed another with Indonesia too.

And the UK car industry is mostly foreign owned now anyway.

On 12/09/18 08:34, tim... wrote:


"Josh Nack" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK
to the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on
the 20% that they export back to the UK

You havent established that there will be any tariff
on EU cars imported into the UK after BRexit or that
it will be at the same rate as the EU charges either.

but it will be

It's a nonsense for it to be otherwise, as we will have no negotiation
chips to entice ROW to enter into an FTA if we don't charge those tariffs.

Perhaps that doesnt matter if the EU is not that imnportmnt an export
market.

Briatin might save a huge amount of red tape by simply declaring that it
is a free trade country and will apply no tarriffs to anyone.

And it will be low on corporation tax.

If the EU then puts up tarriffs to the UK, as a member of the WTO the EU
has to put up tariffs for EVERYONE it doesn't have a trade deal with...
..Maybe not what is desirable.


The point is under WTO rules britain can't be made a special case,
unless the EU does a trade deal with us. Abd why would we do a worse
deal than WTO?


Trading with the EU under WTO rules is not a bad deal at all.




tim





--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

On 12/09/18 08:36, tim... wrote:


"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 20:43:34 +0100, tim... wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as
now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on the
20%
that they export back to the UK instead of the 20% that they export to
Europe, after having paid out hundreds of millions to move their factory

They are BLUFFING

And they will also be able to use the existing EU export agreements to
many countries - which the UK hasn't started thinking about negotiating.

we've HAVE started to think about it

It's just that we cannot sign the deals until we know what the future
arrangements with the EU will be

but it's pretty moot.Â* JLR doesn't sell many cars to the countries on
the list

tim



"China was the companys largest sales region in 2017 with annual sales
of 146,399, up 23 per cent year-on-year. North America reported a
calendar year record with sales of 128,097, 9 per cent up on the
previous high in 2016.'

Jaguar Land Rovers retail sales were 138,643 in Europe which it said
was 'in line with the previous year despite difficult market conditions
in the region'. Sales were down 0.5 per cent down in other Overseas
markets."


"Expansion is global, not just domestic, he said. JLR is building the
E-Pace and all-electric I-Pace under licence in Graz in Austria.

It built 80,000 cars in China last year and will build the new E-Pace
there for the growing Chinese market: Weve been really pleased with
our bounce-back in China, said Mr Goss. €˜Theres huge optimism there.

JLR is about to open this year a vast new factory in Slovakia, with an
initial capacity of 150,000 vehicles. The first vehicle off the line is
the new Land Rover Discovery. It also builds 5,000 vehicles a year in
India and 7,000 in Brazil.

Currently it does not build vehicles in North America €“ its second
biggest market.

Mr Goss said: We always say €˜never say never. But at the moment there
are no plans to build cars in the USA. "

--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

On 11/09/2018 20:43, tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on the
20% that they export back to the UK instead of the 20% that they export
to Europe, after having paid out hundreds of millions to move their factory

Final sales are only a small part of the picture. On average, only 41%
of the parts used in UK built cars are made in the UK. It may well make
sense for a manufacturer to move to Europe after Brexit, if most of
their supplies come from there.


--
--

Colin Bignell

On Wed, 12 Sep 2018 18:08:05 +1000, Josh Nack wrote:

And the UK car industry is mostly foreign owned now anyway.

Not really relevant to tariff issues -
QUOTE the average car made in the UK purchases 44% of its
components from UK suppliers. But the proportion of this actually
made in the UK ¡§is somewhere between 20% and 25%¡¨, which is a long
way from the 55¡V60% threshold needed to qualify for any FTA.
/QUOTE

https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...s/rules-origin

"mechanic" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Sep 2018 18:08:05 +1000, Josh Nack wrote:

And the UK car industry is mostly foreign owned now anyway.

Not really relevant to tariff issues -

Yes it is given that tariffs are about protecting local industry.

QUOTE the average car made in the UK purchases 44% of its
components from UK suppliers. But the proportion of this actually
made in the UK ¡§is somewhere between 20% and 25%¡¨, which is a long
way from the 55¡V60% threshold needed to qualify for any FTA.
/QUOTE

Irrelevant to whether the UK will choose to have tariffs on
car imports after BRexit.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...s/rules-origin

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news
On 12/09/18 08:34, tim... wrote:


"Josh Nack" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on the
20% that they export back to the UK

You havent established that there will be any tariff
on EU cars imported into the UK after BRexit or that
it will be at the same rate as the EU charges either.

but it will be

It's a nonsense for it to be otherwise, as we will have no negotiation
chips to entice ROW to enter into an FTA if we don't charge those
tariffs.

Perhaps that doesnt matter if the EU is not that imnportmnt an export
market.

but it is

Don't be silly

Briatin might save a huge amount of red tape by simply declaring that it
is a free trade country and will apply no tarriffs to anyone.

And it will be low on corporation tax.


You've been sniffing too much ERG pixy dust

If the EU then puts up tarriffs to the UK, as a member of the WTO the EU
has to put up tariffs for EVERYONE it doesn't have a trade deal with...

I know

.Maybe not what is desirable.


The point is under WTO rules britain can't be made a special case,

I know

unless the EU does a trade deal with us.

which is exactly why we are seeking to do this, except for snorters of ERG
pixy dust.

Abd why would we do a worse deal than WTO?

where did anyone suggest that we would?

Trading with the EU under WTO rules is not a bad deal at all.

But there ARE much better deals

tim

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

You've overlooked the "if" in their statement, nobody knows how that
will end up, so just sit tight?

Err, Brexiteers positively thrive on 'ifs'. Why do you expect others not
to do the same? But when it come from one in charge of a company rather
than the likes of Farage etc in charge of nothing, perhaps more credible?


The aussies (who have more recent experience at negotiating trade deals
than us) claim you should ignore everything that's said before the final
three weeks to the deadline as posturing ...

But it was all going to be so easy, we were promised by Bexiteers. The
whole world just gagging for trade deals with the UK.

--
*Women like silent men; they think they're listening.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 11/09/2018 20:43, tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on the
20% that they export back to the UK instead of the 20% that they export
to Europe, after having paid out hundreds of millions to move their
factory

Final sales are only a small part of the picture. On average, only 41% of
the parts used in UK built cars are made in the UK.

so that's at worse 60/40 to the EU, perhaps

but what about those parts that are made in ROW?

It may well make sense for a manufacturer to move to Europe after Brexit,
if most of their supplies come from there.

but 60/40 is hardly a game changer for a factory that going to cost 100s of
millions to move

and where, when the dust has settled, the EU will very likely come to their
senses and realise that they have to do a deal with us anyway.

If we weren't in the EU today you would be overwhelmed in the rush of the EU
trying to make a deal with the 5th largest economy in the world and the
single largest external market for its exports.

If we do leave "without a deal" because of their nonsensical argument that
the only acceptable solution to the Irish problem is a border down the Irish
Sea, once we have left (with no border down the Irish Sea and hence one with
RoI instead) they will be screaming for a deal so that they can do what they
should be doing now - solving the Irish border problem by a mutually
acceptable trade arrangement with the UK.

tim

In article ,
Cursitor Doom wrote:
I think we should adopt a bit of Trumpian guile here with all these liars
that claim they're going to **** off abroad: just quietly inform them
that once we are out, we will be free to place tariffs or impose quotas
on imported goods from suppliers who attempted to do the dirty on us by
signing up with Project Fear.

Yup. Trumps trade wars has been oh so successful. According to Trump. Only.

--
*If you ate pasta and anti-pasta, would you still be hungry?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 11/09/2018 20:43, tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on the
20% that they export back to the UK instead of the 20% that they export
to Europe, after having paid out hundreds of millions to move their
factory

Final sales are only a small part of the picture. On average, only 41% of
the parts used in UK built cars are made in the UK.

so that's at worse 60/40 to the EU, perhaps

but what about those parts that are made in ROW?

It may well make sense for a manufacturer to move to Europe after Brexit,
if most of their supplies come from there.

but 60/40 is hardly a game changer for a factory that going to cost 100s
of millions to move

and where, when the dust has settled, the EU will very likely come to
their senses and realise that they have to do a deal with us anyway.

Unlikely given that its in their interest to make it look
hard for EU members to leave the EU.

If we weren't in the EU today you would be overwhelmed in the rush of the
EU trying to make a deal with the 5th largest economy in the world and the
single largest external market for its exports.

More likely that they would prefer that that country in europe
joined the EU.

If we do leave "without a deal" because of their nonsensical argument that
the only acceptable solution to the Irish problem is a border down the
Irish Sea,

That isnt the EU's primary motivation. That is just their ambit
claim in an attempt to monster the UK into ending up with
something like what Norway has.

once we have left (with no border down the Irish Sea and hence one with
RoI instead) they will be screaming for a deal so that they can do what
they should be doing now - solving the Irish border problem by a mutually
acceptable trade arrangement with the UK.

The EU doesnt work like that.

"Josh Nack" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 11/09/2018 20:43, tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on the
20% that they export back to the UK instead of the 20% that they export
to Europe, after having paid out hundreds of millions to move their
factory

Final sales are only a small part of the picture. On average, only 41%
of the parts used in UK built cars are made in the UK.

so that's at worse 60/40 to the EU, perhaps

but what about those parts that are made in ROW?

It may well make sense for a manufacturer to move to Europe after
Brexit, if most of their supplies come from there.

but 60/40 is hardly a game changer for a factory that going to cost 100s
of millions to move

and where, when the dust has settled, the EU will very likely come to
their senses and realise that they have to do a deal with us anyway.

Unlikely given that its in their interest to make it look
hard for EU members to leave the EU.

ITYF that that have already archived that

Chequers is pants. No other county will go through this agrro for a
"chequers" deal

OTOH no other county has the NI problem to solve, so they will actually get
a better deal from an FTA than we would.

But in any case, it's a complete fiction that they are any other countries
likely to even consider it.

If we weren't in the EU today you would be overwhelmed in the rush of the
EU trying to make a deal with the 5th largest economy in the world and
the single largest external market for its exports.

More likely that they would prefer that that country in europe
joined the EU.

Not within their gift though, is it. An FTA is

If we do leave "without a deal" because of their nonsensical argument
that the only acceptable solution to the Irish problem is a border down
the Irish Sea,

That isnt the EU's primary motivation.

well it certainly seems like it

despite being told in no uncertain teems that "no UK Government could ever
agree to such a deal", it is the offer on the table that they continually
implore the UK to accept.

That is just their ambit
claim in an attempt to monster the UK into ending up with
something like what Norway has.

but Norway is unacceptable, as it requires FoM and paying into the EU budget

Not going to happen either.

and if the only way that they are going to learn that is by us actually
leaving without a deal

They WILL be crawling back to make the deal that they should be making now.

once we have left (with no border down the Irish Sea and hence one with
RoI instead) they will be screaming for a deal so that they can do what
they should be doing now - solving the Irish border problem by a mutually
acceptable trade arrangement with the UK.

The EU doesnt work like that.

but global trade does

Why are they rushing to make a deal with the 40th (ish) largest country in
the world with which they do bugger all trade, if trade deals aren't worth
having?

And in any case they really really really don't want a border with NI, and
no deal gets them exactly that.

tim

"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Josh Nack" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 11/09/2018 20:43, tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK
to the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as
now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on
the 20% that they export back to the UK instead of the 20% that they
export to Europe, after having paid out hundreds of millions to move
their factory

Final sales are only a small part of the picture. On average, only 41%
of the parts used in UK built cars are made in the UK.

so that's at worse 60/40 to the EU, perhaps

but what about those parts that are made in ROW?

It may well make sense for a manufacturer to move to Europe after
Brexit, if most of their supplies come from there.

but 60/40 is hardly a game changer for a factory that going to cost 100s
of millions to move

and where, when the dust has settled, the EU will very likely come to
their senses and realise that they have to do a deal with us anyway.

Unlikely given that its in their interest to make it look
hard for EU members to leave the EU.

ITYF that that have already archived that

Not if they are actually stupid enough to end up with
an agreement with the UK that sees the UK with no
penalty for leaving the EU.

Chequers is pants. No other county will go through this agrro for a
"chequers" deal

There is no cheques deal, Barnier has made that very clear.

OTOH no other county has the NI problem to solve, so they will actually
get a better deal from an FTA than we would.

NI is just the EU playing silly buggers.

But in any case, it's a complete fiction that they are any other countries
likely to even consider it.

Wrong.

If we weren't in the EU today you would be overwhelmed in the rush of
the EU trying to make a deal with the 5th largest economy in the world
and the single largest external market for its exports.

More likely that they would prefer that that country in europe
joined the EU.

Not within their gift though, is it. An FTA is

If we do leave "without a deal" because of their nonsensical argument
that the only acceptable solution to the Irish problem is a border down
the Irish Sea,

That isnt the EU's primary motivation.

well it certainly seems like it

despite being told in no uncertain teems that "no UK Government could ever
agree to such a deal", it is the offer on the table that they continually
implore the UK to accept.

That is just their ambit
claim in an attempt to monster the UK into ending up with
something like what Norway has.

but Norway is unacceptable, as it requires FoM and paying into the EU
budget

Not going to happen either.

and if the only way that they are going to learn that is by us actually
leaving without a deal

They WILL be crawling back to make the deal that they should be making
now.

once we have left (with no border down the Irish Sea and hence one with
RoI instead) they will be screaming for a deal so that they can do what
they should be doing now - solving the Irish border problem by a
mutually acceptable trade arrangement with the UK.

The EU doesnt work like that.

but global trade does

Irrelevant to what the EU will agree to.

Why are they rushing to make a deal with the 40th (ish) largest country in
the world with which they do bugger all trade,

There is no rushing.

if trade deals aren't worth having?

Of course they are with countries that aren't part of the EU.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...ade_agreements

But those arent involved in making it hard to leave the EU.

And in any case they really really really don't want a border with NI, and
no deal gets them exactly that.

NI is irrelevant, its just another EU ambit claim.

On 12/09/18 09:24, Nightjar wrote:
On 11/09/2018 20:43, tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK
to the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on
the 20% that they export back to the UK instead of the 20% that they
export to Europe, after having paid out hundreds of millions to move
their factory

Final sales are only a small part of the picture. On average, only 41%
of the parts used in UK built cars are made in the UK. It may well make
sense for a manufacturer to move to Europe after Brexit, if most of
their supplies come from there.


I guess that's why they are moving to china.

The greatest cost is transport of the final vehicle and labour.

So you site your plant as close to the target market as you can where
there is cheap skilled labour.

European labour isn't cheap and it's not a particularly large market for
jaguar.



--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

"Josh Nack" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Josh Nack" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 11/09/2018 20:43, tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK
to the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as
now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe

moving to Europe would simply mean that they have to pay tariffs on
the 20% that they export back to the UK instead of the 20% that they
export to Europe, after having paid out hundreds of millions to move
their factory

Final sales are only a small part of the picture. On average, only 41%
of the parts used in UK built cars are made in the UK.

so that's at worse 60/40 to the EU, perhaps

but what about those parts that are made in ROW?

It may well make sense for a manufacturer to move to Europe after
Brexit, if most of their supplies come from there.

but 60/40 is hardly a game changer for a factory that going to cost
100s of millions to move

and where, when the dust has settled, the EU will very likely come to
their senses and realise that they have to do a deal with us anyway.

Unlikely given that its in their interest to make it look
hard for EU members to leave the EU.

ITYF that that have already archived that

Not if they are actually stupid enough to end up with
an agreement with the UK that sees the UK with no
penalty for leaving the EU.

but we have (will) suffered a penalty for leaving


Chequers is pants. No other county will go through this agrro for a
"chequers" deal

There is no cheques deal, Barnier has made that very clear.

it's a bluff

he's knows it that or no deal, and he doesn't want no deal.

OTOH no other county has the NI problem to solve, so they will actually
get a better deal from an FTA than we would.

NI is just the EU playing silly buggers.

Yep

but it's working

But in any case, it's a complete fiction that they are any other
countries likely to even consider it.

Wrong.

come on them

who's in the queue

If we weren't in the EU today you would be overwhelmed in the rush of
the EU trying to make a deal with the 5th largest economy in the world
and the single largest external market for its exports.

More likely that they would prefer that that country in europe
joined the EU.

Not within their gift though, is it. An FTA is

If we do leave "without a deal" because of their nonsensical argument
that the only acceptable solution to the Irish problem is a border down
the Irish Sea,

That isnt the EU's primary motivation.

well it certainly seems like it

despite being told in no uncertain teems that "no UK Government could
ever agree to such a deal", it is the offer on the table that they
continually implore the UK to accept.

That is just their ambit
claim in an attempt to monster the UK into ending up with
something like what Norway has.

but Norway is unacceptable, as it requires FoM and paying into the EU
budget

Not going to happen either.

and if the only way that they are going to learn that is by us actually
leaving without a deal

They WILL be crawling back to make the deal that they should be making
now.

once we have left (with no border down the Irish Sea and hence one with
RoI instead) they will be screaming for a deal so that they can do what
they should be doing now - solving the Irish border problem by a
mutually acceptable trade arrangement with the UK.

The EU doesnt work like that.

but global trade does

Irrelevant to what the EU will agree to.

Of course it's not

Why are they rushing to make a deal with the 40th (ish) largest country
in the world with which they do bugger all trade,

There is no rushing.

yes they are.

if trade deals aren't worth having?

Of course they are with countries that aren't part of the EU.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...ade_agreements

but we wont be part of the EU

But those arent involved in making it hard to leave the EU.

I repeat they have passed that point already

tim



And in any case they really really really don't want a border with NI,
and no deal gets them exactly that.

NI is irrelevant, its just another EU ambit claim.

In article ,
tim... wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe


Really?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...egional-sales/

--
*Parenthetical remarks (however relevant) are (usually) unnecessary *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
tim... wrote:
If a company does 90% of its business in rEU and 10% in the UK then it
makes sense to move, as they will effectively save the costs on 80% of
their sales

What an odd if. The biggest customer for JLR products is China. Add that
to NA sales makes it about double the sales to the EU.

Just what tariffs NA and China may apply to good from the UK after we
leave the EU isn't known. Whereas JLR already know the conditions they
export under while the UK is in the EU.

but if the UK/EU sales are the same the costs saving from moving will be
ZERO

But surely we were told leaving the EU would push up workers wages? By
vastly reducing the supply of them? Which is going to increase JLR's
costs? Or was that just another empty promise to get the working class to
vote Brexit?

--
*Why do overlook and oversee mean opposite things?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Briatin might save a huge amount of red tape by simply declaring that it
is a free trade country and will apply no tarriffs to anyone.

Given the state of our trade balance at the moment, a direct route to
bankruptcy. Which it would seem is many Brexiteer's aim.

--
*The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK to
the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe


Really?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...egional-sales/

all I could see was a web site trying to charge me 49 dollars per month

my numbers came from here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_Land_Rover

the exact numbers were 21.6 and 19.3%

tim

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:
If a company does 90% of its business in rEU and 10% in the UK then it
makes sense to move, as they will effectively save the costs on 80% of
their sales

What an odd if. The biggest customer for JLR products is China. Add that
to NA sales makes it about double the sales to the EU.

yes

and as the EU does NOT have a trade deal with either of these countries
moving to the EU will not change their costs of supply to those countries

Just what tariffs NA and China may apply to good from the UK after we
leave the EU isn't known.

yes it is

they will, because they MUST charge the same as they do to the EU.

Have you been asleep when ever WTO rules are discussed?

Whereas JLR already know the conditions they
export under while the UK is in the EU.

but if the UK/EU sales are the same the costs saving from moving will be
ZERO

But surely we were told leaving the EU would push up workers wages?

only at the bottom end.

On 12/09/2018 15:50, tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Â* tim... wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
More good news from Brexit. Jaguar will move production from the UK
to the
EU if we end up with less than the same free movement of goods as now.

as JLR sell 20% of their cars in the UK

and 20% of their cars in Europe


Really?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...egional-sales/


all I could see was a web site trying to charge me 49 dollars per month

my numbers came from here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_Land_Rover

the exact numbers were 21.6 and 19.3%


They're out of date - sales have pretty much doubled since then. But the
proportions are not that different today from what I can see.

The thing is: what will happen to the 80% (or so) exported once we're
out of the the EU? What will the tariffs be? What will happen to parts
logistics? At very best - simply unknown. I can't see how JLR can plan
on that basis.

--
Cheers, Rob

In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:
If a company does 90% of its business in rEU and 10% in the UK then it
makes sense to move, as they will effectively save the costs on 80% of
their sales

What an odd if. The biggest customer for JLR products is China. Add that
to NA sales makes it about double the sales to the EU.

yes

and as the EU does NOT have a trade deal with either of these countries
moving to the EU will not change their costs of supply to those countries

We don't have a trade deal with them either. However, we do with the EU,
and more JLR products are sold there than in the UK - and with far more
chance of expanding sales there than in the UK when the poorer countries
in the EU get richer. If leaving the EU means more expensive JLR products
in the EU, I'd say they would be silly not to move there.

Just what tariffs NA and China may apply to good from the UK after we
leave the EU isn't known.

yes it is

they will, because they MUST charge the same as they do to the EU.

Tell that nice Mr Trump that.

Have you been asleep when ever WTO rules are discussed?

That nice Mr Trump obviously was. As were the Chinese and Canadians and
Mexicans etc. Who apply tariffs to what they want on a random basis. As
happens in trade wars.

Whereas JLR already know the conditions they
export under while the UK is in the EU.

but if the UK/EU sales are the same the costs saving from moving will be
ZERO

But surely we were told leaving the EU would push up workers wages?

only at the bottom end.

Now we have it. So much for the 'better for all'. Now it would be better
only for the very lowest paid. And Rees Mogg, of course.



--
*(on a baby-size shirt) "Party -- my crib -- two a.m

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
RJH wrote:
The thing is: what will happen to the 80% (or so) exported once we're
out of the the EU? What will the tariffs be? What will happen to parts
logistics? At very best - simply unknown. I can't see how JLR can plan
on that basis.

Quite. It's been said often business doesn't like uncertainty. And rightly
so. Now Brexiteers rather obviously like a gamble - but mad to assume
everyone does.

--
*Never kick a cow pat on a hot day *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 12/09/2018 11:19, tim... wrote:


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 11/09/2018 20:43, tim... wrote:
....
Final sales are only a small part of the picture. On average, only 41%
of the parts used in UK built cars are made in the UK.

so that's at worse 60/40 to the EU, perhaps...

Except that even the parts made in the UK probably use at least some raw
materials from the EU, while components may make several trips across
the Channel as they go through different stages of manufacture. Without
free movement of goods, each crossing adds a delay into the supply
chain, which is of more concern to the industry than the tariffs involved.

....
but 60/40 is hardly a game changer for a factory that going to cost 100s
of millions to move

It is more likely that it will affect the choice of where a plant is
going to be built to make a new model. Like most of the consequences of
Brexit, it won't happen overnight, but will eventually result in us
being a poorer country.

.....
If we weren't in the EU today you would be overwhelmed in the rush of
the EU trying to make a deal with the 5th largest economy in the world
and the single largest external market for its exports...

If we weren't in the EU, those figures probably wouldn't apply.



--
--

Colin Bignell