My '03 Discovery has begun a sporadic fault. Symptom being the engine
management fault light comes on and the accelerator pedal has no effect
although the engine continues to run at tick over. This has happened
twice now at about two weeks apart. First time just before Christmas on
a busy dual carriageway during peak period. I managed to coast up onto
the grass right out of the way of the traffic fortunately or some loon
would no doubt have come to a sudden stop in my rear end. I called the
RAC out and on arrival the fault had disappeared. the engine started
and ran ok so we travelled to a nearby car park where the RAC guy
plugged his "universal" comms laptop into the link but the Land Rover
system would not talk to his set.
He theorised that the fault was transient but would be in the engine
management memory and a Land Rover agency could interrogate it.
Having tried and failed to make an appointment at a reasonable time
before Christmas the problem recurred on boxing day but I found simply
turning off then on again was sufficient to reset the unit again. I am
now due to take the vehicle into an agency next week but they were not
confident the memory would still hold the fault.
Have we anyone in our numbers who have knowledge of the engine
management system on a Discovery 2.5 Diesel and is it feasible to get
hold of the commes interrogation software to run on my own laptop?

cynic formulated the question :

Have we anyone in our numbers who have knowledge of the engine
management system on a Discovery 2.5 Diesel and is it feasible to get
hold of the commes interrogation software to run on my own laptop?

Best source for information would be a Land Rover specialist group web
site.

You can get the adaptor and software for most cars, but you would be
best to find out which of the many works best with your model.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

cynic wrote:

My '03 Discovery has begun a sporadic fault. Symptom being the engine
management fault light comes on and the accelerator pedal has no effect
although the engine continues to run at tick over. This has happened
twice now at about two weeks apart. First time just before Christmas on
a busy dual carriageway during peak period. I managed to coast up onto
the grass right out of the way of the traffic fortunately or some loon
would no doubt have come to a sudden stop in my rear end. I called the
RAC out and on arrival the fault had disappeared. the engine started
and ran ok so we travelled to a nearby car park where the RAC guy
plugged his "universal" comms laptop into the link but the Land Rover
system would not talk to his set.
He theorised that the fault was transient but would be in the engine
management memory and a Land Rover agency could interrogate it.
Having tried and failed to make an appointment at a reasonable time
before Christmas the problem recurred on boxing day but I found simply
turning off then on again was sufficient to reset the unit again. I am
now due to take the vehicle into an agency next week but they were not
confident the memory would still hold the fault.
Have we anyone in our numbers who have knowledge of the engine
management system on a Discovery 2.5 Diesel and is it feasible to get
hold of the commes interrogation software to run on my own laptop?

A reasonable starting point would be the throttle potentiometer, assuming
the disco uses such a thing as its throttle position sensor.

Might be an intermittent wiring fault or a dodgey pot (or a million other
things, but you have to start somewhere). Try reseating the connectors. If
you can ascertain that it is a simple pot, disconnect it and use a
multimeter to see if it's giving sane and stable readings as you move the
throttle over the operating range.

As you mention, the ECU *should* record its last error at least and Land
Rover should be able to read this out. However, they might try to charge a
full hour's fee (like 80 pounds or whatever) so another approach is to try
a small garage or tuning specialist - such folk have offered to do a diag
dump for me for as little as 15 pounds, until they found out their kit
wasn't compatible with my mouldy old '98 Daewoo.

Don't know if that's of any help or not...

Cheers

Tim

Huge wrote:
On 2007-01-06, cynic wrote:
My '03 Discovery has begun a sporadic fault. Symptom being the engine
management fault light comes on and the accelerator pedal has no effect
although the engine continues to run at tick over.

"Fly by wire" throttle.

They have those? MM. I suppose they would have. Diesels don't vary air,
just the amount of fuel injected. Used to be a mechanical cam on the
injection. I guess a pot makes more sense.

I'd hazard a quess at corroded connections to the throttle potentiometer.

That, going OC would generally give you a warning light. Its about
equivalent to a snapped throttle cable..

The ONLY major faults I have had with my defender - broadly the same
guts as a disco - have been due to wire corrosion type things.

- water in fuel light stayed on. Replaced sensor
- fuel gauge packed up. replace sensor
- sometimes doesn't start. Wiggle leads on starter motor.
- lights inside sometimes don;t come on. Wiggle door switches.


I would be strongly tempted to see if you can find the pot and simply
remove its wires, clean the connections and put some contact spray and
silicone grease on them and plug it all back together.

I doubt the pot itself is defective..you would get irregular throttle
response, not a complete cut.



Have we anyone in our numbers who have knowledge of the engine
management system on a Discovery 2.5 Diesel and is it feasible to get
hold of the commes interrogation software to run on my own laptop?

You need a "TestBook";


I don't think you need anything more than common sense and a bit of
logic and understanding.


UNLESS there is a wiring loom fault or a fault in the central EMS, only
one thing fits the symptoms. An open circuit (or POSSIBLY a short) in
the throttle pot circuit.

The fact that its intermittent as well fits that scenario 100%.

Simply find what the accelerator connects to, - should be some kind of
electrical lump with two or three wires going to it - and pull off clean
and replace the connectors.

It MIGHT be the other end of the wires that go from their to the ECU. Or
in the loom between, but I doubt it.

Tim S wrote:
cynic wrote:

My '03 Discovery has begun a sporadic fault. Symptom being the engine
management fault light comes on and the accelerator pedal has no effect
although the engine continues to run at tick over. This has happened
twice now at about two weeks apart. First time just before Christmas on
a busy dual carriageway during peak period. I managed to coast up onto
the grass right out of the way of the traffic fortunately or some loon
would no doubt have come to a sudden stop in my rear end. I called the
RAC out and on arrival the fault had disappeared. the engine started
and ran ok so we travelled to a nearby car park where the RAC guy
plugged his "universal" comms laptop into the link but the Land Rover
system would not talk to his set.
He theorised that the fault was transient but would be in the engine
management memory and a Land Rover agency could interrogate it.
Having tried and failed to make an appointment at a reasonable time
before Christmas the problem recurred on boxing day but I found simply
turning off then on again was sufficient to reset the unit again. I am
now due to take the vehicle into an agency next week but they were not
confident the memory would still hold the fault.
Have we anyone in our numbers who have knowledge of the engine
management system on a Discovery 2.5 Diesel and is it feasible to get
hold of the commes interrogation software to run on my own laptop?

A reasonable starting point would be the throttle potentiometer, assuming
the disco uses such a thing as its throttle position sensor.


Agreed. It *has* to use such..since the ECU fully controls the
injectors. And therefire the throttle pedal must talk to the ECU and not
anything in the engine direct.


Might be an intermittent wiring fault or a dodgey pot (or a million other
things, but you have to start somewhere).


I think not a million other things.

Consider. The engine went to idle (default safety setting) but otherwise
ran perfectly. A light came on. Now that pretty much tells you that the
ECU said 'I have an out of spec condition, I don't know what to do, and
this is my best response'.

Since the engine didn't misfire, go smokey or in fact do anything
untoward, one may conclude that by and large the fault wasn't with any
other sensors like temperature and so in, or with an injector or the
injector system. I.e. it wasn't with the feedback part of the engine
control at all, it was with the primary input to the ECU.

Couple that with my experience that the worts feature of that era and
type of landrover is crappy electrical connections, and I feel there is
very strong evidence that its a corroded connector to the pot.

Now it gets speculative, because I am not intimately aware of the
software in that ECU.

It is pretty standard practice to monitor all the resistances of the
sensors (and they are all by and large variable resistors/thermistors
etc) and to generate a fault condition when they go outside range.
However whether this will result in a single instance of the fault, that
then goes away causing the system to go into failsafe, or whether it
will note the fault, light the lamp and *carry on* is a moot point.

I know that my Jaguar used to go into 'limp home' mode (50mph max and no
bloody power) on a variety of faults - high gearbox temp was one. But
stopping and restarting cleared the fault.

It may be that ANY instance of dodgy throttle pot on the Disco results
in 'go to idle and stay there' it being deemed that to drive with a
throttle sensor problem is potentially too dangerous.

Again, I am not sure whether the pot is wired AS a pot, or just as a
variable resistor, but I suspect, motor manufacturers being what they
are, that its as a resistor. Saves a wire dunnit?. Inspection would show
whether its two wire or three, anyway. I would ALSO ssdupect that 'high
resitsance=low throttle' is the way any sane person would do it, so that
high resistance in contacts results in low throttle..we don't want the
thing to kick into full chat if a wire falls off - even momentarily.
Shorts are far less likely..

So, logic suggests its a two wire system, that is monitored for
resistance that is too low, or too high. Mostly the latter.

And it went too high,. That MIGHT be a faulty/worn pot track, but 03 is
a young car, and it seems fairly unlikely to have worn in that time.
Alasos a worn track is FAR more repeatble..go to that throttle posuitin
and it WILL show a problem in a large number ofcases. Its not doing that.

OTOH MY experience of the Defender 2.5 tdi, which shares most of the
engine parts with the Disco is that dodgy connections are mandatory on
these vehicles, It's their weakest link frankly.

I suspect that ALL that plugging in a diagnostic will do, is tell you
that a high out of range throttle pot resistance was detected. That
takes you nowhere. It just means that the garage can do what I have done
and intuit a problem in that circuit. And charge you £80 for the
privilege. All they will then do is simply replace the throttle pot
anyway, because that is a guarantee that it's not that as a problem,
clean up the connectors and stuff it all back together and hope that the
£400 quid cheque doesn't bounce.

If it is an intermittent connection, and if as I suspect it takes but
one instance to blue screen the ECU till its rebooted, as it were, then
my pragmatic advice is to find the connections, do a thorough job of
cleaning and putting water repellent stuff on them, and then run the car
a bit .. it will always get you home, if you simply switch off and
restart, until the time it doesn't, at which point the fault will be a
lot easier to find.

Now, anyone know why my defender suddenly has got a long soft brake
pedal? Just been serviced (always a mistake) by the very expensive
dealers..who have in the long past under previous management managed to
introduce expensive faults..its got plenty of fluid in it..so can't see
how air got in..














Try reseating the connectors. If
you can ascertain that it is a simple pot, disconnect it and use a
multimeter to see if it's giving sane and stable readings as you move the
throttle over the operating range.

As you mention, the ECU *should* record its last error at least and Land
Rover should be able to read this out. However, they might try to charge a
full hour's fee (like 80 pounds or whatever) so another approach is to try
a small garage or tuning specialist - such folk have offered to do a diag
dump for me for as little as 15 pounds, until they found out their kit
wasn't compatible with my mouldy old '98 Daewoo.

Don't know if that's of any help or not...

Cheers

Tim

The Natural Philosopher was thinking very hard :
However whether this will result in a single instance of the fault, that then
goes away causing the system to go into failsafe, or whether it will note the
fault, light the lamp and *carry on* is a moot point.

Most do have a fall back of carrying on, if this is a possibility and
logging the fault.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

Thanks for the pointers from everyone. I'm goiing to take a look for
the throttle pot this afternoon whilst its still fine weather. I had
suspicions that it might be pot as I "think" it is developing a
slightly non linear response to my foot position although once you get
an idea in your head its all to easy to convince yourself of something
:-(
The logic about high resistance is good thinking - if the vehicle
designers are logical people?

In article om,
cynic wrote:
My '03 Discovery has begun a sporadic fault. Symptom being the engine
management fault light comes on and the accelerator pedal has no effect
although the engine continues to run at tick over. This has happened
twice now at about two weeks apart. First time just before Christmas on
a busy dual carriageway during peak period. I managed to coast up onto
the grass right out of the way of the traffic fortunately or some loon
would no doubt have come to a sudden stop in my rear end. I called the
RAC out and on arrival the fault had disappeared. the engine started
and ran ok so we travelled to a nearby car park where the RAC guy
plugged his "universal" comms laptop into the link but the Land Rover
system would not talk to his set.
He theorised that the fault was transient but would be in the engine
management memory and a Land Rover agency could interrogate it.
Having tried and failed to make an appointment at a reasonable time
before Christmas the problem recurred on boxing day but I found simply
turning off then on again was sufficient to reset the unit again. I am
now due to take the vehicle into an agency next week but they were not
confident the memory would still hold the fault.
Have we anyone in our numbers who have knowledge of the engine
management system on a Discovery 2.5 Diesel and is it feasible to get
hold of the commes interrogation software to run on my own laptop?

It must have some form of TPS (throttle position sensor) even although a
diesel. It might be a pot or a rotary encoder. My first checks would be to
make sure the connections between it and the ECU are clean and secure. And
to look at its output with a scope.

The trouble with third party software and hardware to read *any* codes is
the makers deliberately change these at regular intervals simply to make
things difficult for independents - unless it is one of the OBC codes
which the US have insisted are universal. Or at least they have to be in
the US. And of course they don't really have diesel cars there yet.

--
*Why don't sheep shrink when it rains?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Tim S wrote:
A reasonable starting point would be the throttle potentiometer, assuming
the disco uses such a thing as its throttle position sensor.


Agreed. It *has* to use such..since the ECU fully controls the
injectors. And therefire the throttle pedal must talk to the ECU and not
anything in the engine direct.

Yep - what I really meant was as opposed to some sort of other fancy
position sensor (eg Hall senor and moving magnet or optical wotsit rather
than a pot) - I'm out of date on these things, so just making allowances


Might be an intermittent wiring fault or a dodgey pot (or a million other
things, but you have to start somewhere).


I think not a million other things.

I agree with you that the pot is most likely, like 99% likely, but given
it's a computer based system, always worth keeping an open mind - never
underestimate the ability of a computer to fail in some weird-arsed way
based on an unlikely combination of edge cases - I've been caught out
before (not often mind) where the obvious cause of the fault wasn't
actually the cause.

snip

Couple that with my experience that the worts feature of that era and
type of landrover is crappy electrical connections, and I feel there is
very strong evidence that its a corroded connector to the pot.

Do they still use "Lucas, Prince or Darkness" components?

snip

Cheers,

Tim

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Natural Philosopher was thinking very hard :
However whether this will result in a single instance of the fault,
that then goes away causing the system to go into failsafe, or whether
it will note the fault, light the lamp and *carry on* is a moot point.

Most do have a fall back of carrying on, if this is a possibility and
logging the fault.

Thanks for that snippet.

cynic wrote:
Thanks for the pointers from everyone. I'm goiing to take a look for
the throttle pot this afternoon whilst its still fine weather. I had
suspicions that it might be pot as I "think" it is developing a
slightly non linear response to my foot position although once you get
an idea in your head its all to easy to convince yourself of something
:-(
The logic about high resistance is good thinking - if the vehicle
designers are logical people?

ECU designers are in general pretty sane.

Its the overall production engineers who will insist on replacing e.g.
gold plated contacts or proper screw terminals with the thinnest and
nastiest of silver plating, or worse still brass, and expecting that
salt laden winter spray won't affect anything at wall.

MY dodgy starter motor connection SEEMS to be the the line to the
contactor. Push fit spade.

An intermittent high resistance is what you would get from a dodgy
variable resistor..likely to give you the odd bout of low throttle when
you least expect it, or ultimately not enough throttle at all.

In article ,
Tim S wrote:
Do they still use "Lucas, Prince or Darkness" components?

Lucas ceased trading years ago. They were bought out - by of all things -
a US company. Don't think they are now in the automotive field. The spares
supply is taken care of by IIRC CAV.

--
*The hardness of the butter is proportional to the softness of the bread *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Tim S wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Tim S wrote:
A reasonable starting point would be the throttle potentiometer, assuming
the disco uses such a thing as its throttle position sensor.

Agreed. It *has* to use such..since the ECU fully controls the
injectors. And therefire the throttle pedal must talk to the ECU and not
anything in the engine direct.

Yep - what I really meant was as opposed to some sort of other fancy
position sensor (eg Hall senor and moving magnet or optical wotsit rather
than a pot) - I'm out of date on these things, so just making allowances

Might be an intermittent wiring fault or a dodgey pot (or a million other
things, but you have to start somewhere).

I think not a million other things.

I agree with you that the pot is most likely, like 99% likely, but given
it's a computer based system, always worth keeping an open mind - never
underestimate the ability of a computer to fail in some weird-arsed way
based on an unlikely combination of edge cases - I've been caught out
before (not often mind) where the obvious cause of the fault wasn't
actually the cause.

snip
Couple that with my experience that the worts feature of that era and
type of landrover is crappy electrical connections, and I feel there is
very strong evidence that its a corroded connector to the pot.

Do they still use "Lucas, Prince or Darkness" components?


Almost certainly.

The latest defender STILL has switches intstantly recognisable to those
of you who grew up with Morris 1100's and Marinas..

I think the disco is a bit better, and the freelander certainly is..the
one we have is almost all 'BMW' including the engine..a very different
beast altogether.

The 2.5TDI though is a really great engine. Slogs on for ever.


snip

Cheers,

Tim

Well I took a look but the promised rain came on almost immediately so
I've called it off for the day. I think I found the throttle
potentiometer - a shiny round metal component on the pedal axis.
Problem now is going to be actually getting to it without taking the
drivers seat out. Its tucked up tight into the corner of the drivers
footwell behind various obstructions. There isn't any obvious signs of
dampness or corrosion from what very restricted view I did have so I
might have a search round for a local small firm diagnosis service
since the agency were talking £80 plus VAT. At that price I could
justify a connection lead and some software if its anything like
reasonably priced.

cynic wrote:
Well I took a look but the promised rain came on almost immediately so
I've called it off for the day. I think I found the throttle
potentiometer - a shiny round metal component on the pedal axis.
Problem now is going to be actually getting to it without taking the
drivers seat out. Its tucked up tight into the corner of the drivers
footwell behind various obstructions. There isn't any obvious signs of
dampness or corrosion from what very restricted view I did have so I
might have a search round for a local small firm diagnosis service
since the agency were talking £80 plus VAT. At that price I could
justify a connection lead and some software if its anything like
reasonably priced.

It isn't.

I had some dealings with a company that does third party software and
diagnostic help for ECU's and so on.. the manuals are thick and heavy,
and so is the kit, and they owed their existence to the fact that very
very few garages actually knew how to use it.

In the one case where I had an injection issue, they and I were correct
in our diagnosis. The garage I took it to were not.

The info is closely guarded by the manufacturers, and they tend to
release it (they have to under EEC rulings) in as terse and unreadable a
form as possible.

I am 99.99% certain that diagnostics will not tell you what you don't
know already. It's that shiny round component on the pedal axis..or
rather the wires attaching to it in all probability.

You won't see any obvious signs of corrosion. That will all be inside
the spade terminals or whatever it uses to attach to the wiring.

A good blast of contact cleaner and a wiggle may fix it even if you cant
get the wires off. A good wiggle with the engine running may well induce
the fault too.

Huge wrote:
On 2007-01-06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Huge wrote:
On 2007-01-06, cynic wrote:
My '03 Discovery has begun a sporadic fault. Symptom being the engine
management fault light comes on and the accelerator pedal has no effect
although the engine continues to run at tick over.
"Fly by wire" throttle.
They have those?

If it's a Td5, yes.

Later 300 TDis are also fly by wire....

cynic wrote:
My '03 Discovery has begun a sporadic fault. Symptom being the engine
management fault light comes on and the accelerator pedal has no effect
although the engine continues to run at tick over. This has happened
twice now at about two weeks apart. First time just before Christmas on
a busy dual carriageway during peak period. I managed to coast up onto
the grass right out of the way of the traffic fortunately or some loon
would no doubt have come to a sudden stop in my rear end. I called the
RAC out and on arrival the fault had disappeared. the engine started
and ran ok so we travelled to a nearby car park where the RAC guy
plugged his "universal" comms laptop into the link but the Land Rover
system would not talk to his set.
He theorised that the fault was transient but would be in the engine
management memory and a Land Rover agency could interrogate it.
Having tried and failed to make an appointment at a reasonable time
before Christmas the problem recurred on boxing day but I found simply
turning off then on again was sufficient to reset the unit again. I am
now due to take the vehicle into an agency next week but they were not
confident the memory would still hold the fault.
Have we anyone in our numbers who have knowledge of the engine
management system on a Discovery 2.5 Diesel and is it feasible to get
hold of the commes interrogation software to run on my own laptop?


Try posting on alt.fan.landrover - there are heaps of experts there. Some even
know what they are talking about

K

--
Karen

If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.'
Catherine Aird

On Sun, 07 Jan 2007 11:01:42 +1000, Duracell Bunny wrote:


Try posting on alt.fan.landrover - there are heaps of experts there.

I think you'll find that most of them are experts on heaps.

Steve Firth wrote:
On Sun, 07 Jan 2007 11:01:42 +1000, Duracell Bunny wrote:


Try posting on alt.fan.landrover - there are heaps of experts there.

I think you'll find that most of them are experts on heaps.

I resemble that remark ...

--
Karen

If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.'
Catherine Aird

In article ,
Huge wrote:

On 2007-01-06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Lucas ceased trading years ago. They were bought out - by of
all things - a US company.

TRW, AFAIK.

Bought out by a Canadian company afair, who only
wanted the car parts side, so later sold the
aerospace business to TRW.

Don't think they are now in the automotive field.

"Lucas Aerospace". Be afraid. Be very afraid.

TRW then sold it to the US aerospace company, Goodrich.

http://www.goodrich.com

I used to do work for Lucas Aerospace, Hemel, and then
for Goodrich when they moved to Pitstone Green. Say
what you like about the old Lucas Industries but some
of their recent aerospace kit (the A380 generators and
control electronics for example) is impressive by any
standards.

--
Tony Williams.

In article ,
Huge wrote:
On 2007-01-06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim S wrote:
Do they still use "Lucas, Prince or Darkness" components?

Lucas ceased trading years ago. They were bought out - by of all
things - a US company.

TRW, AFAIK.

Don't think they are now in the automotive field.

"Lucas Aerospace". Be afraid. Be very afraid.

They were Lucas Aerospace before being sold.

I know it's fashionable (and has been for years) to knock Lucas, but I
don't really see the modern 'equivalents' being so much better. Or indeed
the majority of the contemporary and comparable alternatives. They are all
constrained by the same factors that made some Lucas products unreliable -
extremely tight budgeting car by makers being the main one.

The very worst electrics I had on any car was the Delco installation on a
Bedford van. Just about anything that could go wrong did. ;-)

--
He who laughs last, thinks slowest*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 7 Jan 2007 11:53:19 GMT, Huge wrote:

TBH, it's just a joke. The worst electrics I ever had on a car were the
Bosch ones on my Porsche 924.

Ducellier - produced the only alernator that I have known to crumble into
green dust within two years.

In message , Huge
writes
On 2007-01-07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I know it's fashionable (and has been for years) to knock Lucas, but I
don't really see the modern 'equivalents' being so much better.

TBH, it's just a joke. The worst electrics I ever had on a car were the
Bosch ones on my Porsche 924.


Neither of you ever owned a bantam in your youth then


--
geoff

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
raden wrote:

In message , Huge
writes

TBH, it's just a joke. The worst electrics I ever had on a car were
the Bosch ones on my Porsche 924.


Neither of you ever owned a bantam in your youth then

What sort of *car* was that?
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

In message , Roger Mills
writes
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
raden wrote:

In message , Huge
writes

TBH, it's just a joke. The worst electrics I ever had on a car were
the Bosch ones on my Porsche 924.


Neither of you ever owned a bantam in your youth then

What sort of *car* was that?

One with half the wheels missing, why ?

--
geoff

raden wrote in message
TBH, it's just a joke. The worst electrics I ever had on a car were the
Bosch ones on my Porsche 924.


Neither of you ever owned a bantam in your youth then

geoff

I still own and regularly use a Bantam
Electrics would be the last thing any owner would complain about.


-

In message , Mark
writes

raden wrote in message
TBH, it's just a joke. The worst electrics I ever had on a car were the
Bosch ones on my Porsche 924.


Neither of you ever owned a bantam in your youth then

geoff

I still own and regularly use a Bantam
Electrics would be the last thing any owner would complain about.

Mine used to turn every TV screen to snow for 500 metres

--
geoff

Tim S wrote in message news:459fa370$0


Do they still use "Lucas, Prince or Darkness" components?

Tim

Oh you must need one of these then
http://i14.tinypic.com/2lj03gl.gif



-

On 7 Jan 2007 16:01:22 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2007-01-07, Steve Firth wrote:
On 7 Jan 2007 11:53:19 GMT, Huge wrote:

TBH, it's just a joke. The worst electrics I ever had on a car were the
Bosch ones on my Porsche 924.

Ducellier - produced the only alernator that I have known to crumble into
green dust within two years.

French?

Indeed, on a Citroen as well to make things worse.