I have added a summary of some of the changes in the 18th edition he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...story#18th_edn

(not exhaustive - just a quick flick through!)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 28/07/18 22:49, John Rumm wrote:
I have added a summary of some of the changes in the 18th edition he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...story#18th_edn

(not exhaustive - just a quick flick through!)




"So cables supported in plastic trunking or in plastic conduit will also
need additional metal clips."


How does that work with conduit?

On Sunday, 29 July 2018 13:49:32 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
"So cables supported in plastic trunking or in plastic conduit will also
need additional metal clips."
How does that work with conduit?

bent nail over the conduit

Owain

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:27 +0100
Tim Watts wrote:

On 28/07/18 22:49, John Rumm wrote:
I have added a summary of some of the changes in the 18th edition
he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...story#18th_edn

(not exhaustive - just a quick flick through!)




"So cables supported in plastic trunking or in plastic conduit will
also need additional metal clips."


How does that work with conduit?


Saddle clips, I guess.

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:27 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 28/07/18 22:49, John Rumm wrote:
I have added a summary of some of the changes in the 18th edition he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...story#18th_edn

(not exhaustive - just a quick flick through!)




"So cables supported in plastic trunking or in plastic conduit will also
need additional metal clips."


How does that work with conduit?

Clip the conduit then even if the plastic gets melted away at least
the cable (or what's left of it) will be held in the general proximity
of the wall.

On 29/07/2018 13:49, Tim Watts wrote:
On 28/07/18 22:49, John Rumm wrote:
I have added a summary of some of the changes in the 18th edition he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...story#18th_edn

(not exhaustive - just a quick flick through!)




"So cables supported in plastic trunking or in plastic conduit will also
need additional metal clips."


How does that work with conduit?

The saddle clamps which fix the conduit to the surface can be metal.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
On 28/07/18 22:49, John Rumm wrote:
I have added a summary of some of the changes in the 18th edition he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...story#18th_edn

(not exhaustive - just a quick flick through!)




"So cables supported in plastic trunking or in plastic conduit will also
need additional metal clips."


How does that work with conduit?


this applies when the cables are over a doorway or similar exit way. Those
trying to exit don't want to fight there way through dangling cables

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 29/07/18 14:09, Steve wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:27 +0100
Tim Watts wrote:

On 28/07/18 22:49, John Rumm wrote:
I have added a summary of some of the changes in the 18th edition
he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...story#18th_edn

(not exhaustive - just a quick flick through!)




"So cables supported in plastic trunking or in plastic conduit will
also need additional metal clips."


How does that work with conduit?


Saddle clips, I guess.



That does seem to be the only viable method...

To be honest I hate the plastic clips anyway so this would be an
improvement.

But overall, I feel the 18th is just looking for things to change
without any real justification or cost/benefit.

Yes, RCDs on lights is OK - but was effectively there anyway.

Losing the exception of a non RCD socket is dumb - at least they should
have said "you can, but with a non standard (eg Walsall gauge) outlet" -
which would have stopped it being blithely used for lawnmowers.

On 29/07/18 14:17, John Rumm wrote:
On 29/07/2018 13:49, Tim Watts wrote:
On 28/07/18 22:49, John Rumm wrote:
I have added a summary of some of the changes in the 18th edition he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...story#18th_edn

(not exhaustive - just a quick flick through!)




"So cables supported in plastic trunking or in plastic conduit will
also need additional metal clips."


How does that work with conduit?

The saddle clamps which fix the conduit to the surface can be metal.



I guess that's the only viable method...

On 29/07/18 14:25, charles wrote:
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
On 28/07/18 22:49, John Rumm wrote:
I have added a summary of some of the changes in the 18th edition he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...story#18th_edn

(not exhaustive - just a quick flick through!)




"So cables supported in plastic trunking or in plastic conduit will also
need additional metal clips."


How does that work with conduit?


this applies when the cables are over a doorway or similar exit way. Those
trying to exit don't want to fight there way through dangling cables


I thought that was already covered.

This is "everywhere".

On 29/07/2018 14:31, Tim Watts wrote:
On 29/07/18 14:09, Steve wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:27 +0100
Tim Watts wrote:

On 28/07/18 22:49, John Rumm wrote:
I have added a summary of some of the changes in the 18th edition
he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...story#18th_edn

(not exhaustive - just a quick flick through!)



"So cables supported in plastic trunking or in plastic conduit will
also need additional metal clips."


How does that work with conduit?


Saddle clips, I guess.



That does seem to be the only viable method...


Metal P clips?



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:27 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On 28/07/18 22:49, John Rumm wrote:
I have added a summary of some of the changes in the 18th edition he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...story#18th_edn

(not exhaustive - just a quick flick through!)


"So cables supported in plastic trunking or in plastic conduit will also
need additional metal clips."

How does that work with conduit?

Is that for cables that could fall across escape routes?
Most cables in vertical mini-trunking will just hang close to the wall - and
it'll take longer for the trunking to melt - that on a ceiling is in the
worst place.

As for RCD on lighting circuits: great - get a shock from a mains tool,
lights go off, fall off stepladder! Separate RCDs/RCBOs would be OK, so long
as the whole board doesn't go off.

No unprotected sockets: there goes the freezer!
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On Monday, 30 July 2018 08:11:38 UTC+1, PeterC wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:27 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:
On 28/07/18 22:49, John Rumm wrote:
I have added a summary of some of the changes in the 18th edition he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...story#18th_edn

(not exhaustive - just a quick flick through!)


"So cables supported in plastic trunking or in plastic conduit will also
need additional metal clips."

How does that work with conduit?

Is that for cables that could fall across escape routes?
Most cables in vertical mini-trunking will just hang close to the wall - and
it'll take longer for the trunking to melt - that on a ceiling is in the
worst place.

As for RCD on lighting circuits: great - get a shock from a mains tool,
lights go off, fall off stepladder! Separate RCDs/RCBOs would be OK, so long
as the whole board doesn't go off.

No unprotected sockets: there goes the freezer!

I suppose it's at least still legal to plug in an isolating transformer, which has much the same effect by de-RCDing the supply to the freezer. It does all seem rather questionable.


NT

On 30/07/2018 08:11, PeterC wrote:

No unprotected sockets: there goes the freezer!

That's why I put in a dedicated RCDBO protected circuit for the freezer
when we refitted the kitchen.

--
Mike Clarke

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 14:31:41 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 29/07/18 14:09, Steve wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:27 +0100
Tim Watts wrote:

On 28/07/18 22:49, John Rumm wrote:
I have added a summary of some of the changes in the 18th edition
he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...story#18th_edn

(not exhaustive - just a quick flick through!)




"So cables supported in plastic trunking or in plastic conduit will
also need additional metal clips."


How does that work with conduit?


Saddle clips, I guess.



That does seem to be the only viable method...

To be honest I hate the plastic clips anyway so this would be an
improvement.

But overall, I feel the 18th is just looking for things to change
without any real justification or cost/benefit.

Yes, RCDs on lights is OK - but was effectively there anyway.

Losing the exception of a non RCD socket is dumb - at least they should
have said "you can, but with a non standard (eg Walsall gauge) outlet" -
which would have stopped it being blithely used for lawnmowers.

I don't think Walsall Gauge is a concept that is well understood by
the public. I have a Schuko socket in my utility room and a lot of
people don't know that that is.

All that would happen is that someone would put an adaptor on eBay to
allow standard plugs to fit non-standard sockets. Or people would
swap it over for something more useful. Is the distance between the
screws also non-standard to prevent this?

In article ,
says...

I have a Schuko socket in my utility room and a lot of
people don't know that that is.

All that would happen is that someone would put an adaptor on eBay to
allow standard plugs to fit non-standard sockets.

Well, they already exist for Schuko to 13A and widely
available!



--

Terry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 30/07/2018 08:11, PeterC wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:27 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On 28/07/18 22:49, John Rumm wrote:
I have added a summary of some of the changes in the 18th edition he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...story#18th_edn

(not exhaustive - just a quick flick through!)


"So cables supported in plastic trunking or in plastic conduit will also
need additional metal clips."

How does that work with conduit?

Is that for cables that could fall across escape routes?

It for all cables in any location now...

Most cables in vertical mini-trunking will just hang close to the wall - and
it'll take longer for the trunking to melt - that on a ceiling is in the
worst place.

As for RCD on lighting circuits: great - get a shock from a mains tool,
lights go off, fall off stepladder!

This is why even on basic installations to share out circuits between
more than one RCD such that you don't kill lighting in the same area as
the sockets etc.

Separate RCDs/RCBOs would be OK, so long
as the whole board doesn't go off.

"whole house" RCDs went out with the 16th edition.

No unprotected sockets: there goes the freezer!

Dedicated RCBO.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 30/07/18 17:33, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ,
says...

I have a Schuko socket in my utility room and a lot of
people don't know that that is.

All that would happen is that someone would put an adaptor on eBay to
allow standard plugs to fit non-standard sockets.

Well, they already exist for Schuko to 13A and widely
available!



got one on the ferry to france


--
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent
renewable energy.

On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 17:33:47 +0100, Terry Casey
wrote:

In article ,
says...

I have a Schuko socket in my utility room and a lot of
people don't know that that is.

All that would happen is that someone would put an adaptor on eBay to
allow standard plugs to fit non-standard sockets.

Well, they already exist for Schuko to 13A and widely
available!

This is true. There is no limit to the ingenuity of mankind.

On Mon, 30 Jul 2018 17:50:47 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

As for RCD on lighting circuits: great - get a shock from a mains tool,
lights go off, fall off stepladder!

This is why even on basic installations to share out circuits between
more than one RCD such that you don't kill lighting in the same area as
the sockets etc.

Mine has 30mA for the sockets etc. and 100mA for lighting and a few other
things.
The shed is fed from the 100mA RCD, then 30Ma for the sockets and only a 6A
MCB for the lights.

Separate RCDs/RCBOs would be OK, so long
as the whole board doesn't go off.

"whole house" RCDs went out with the 16th edition.

Mine's about 1990, so 16th., I assume.
No unprotected sockets: there goes the freezer!

Dedicated RCBO.

Yes, I like the principle of RCBOs but that would need some rewiring and the
board probably wouldn't take them.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On Saturday, 28 July 2018 22:49:18 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
I have added a summary of some of the changes in the 18th edition he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...story#18th_edn

(not exhaustive - just a quick flick through!)

Useful. Page http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Regulations will need one or more small updates.

--
SL

In article , lid
says...

On 30/07/18 17:33, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ,
says...

I have a Schuko socket in my utility room and a lot of
people don't know that that is.

All that would happen is that someone would put an adaptor on eBay to
allow standard plugs to fit non-standard sockets.

Well, they already exist for Schuko to 13A and widely
available!



got one on the ferry to france

In which case you probably paid a premium price for it!

Plenty in the High Street from £1 upwards.

Quality does vary, though, so a visual examination is a good
idea.

Some don't accomodate the French earth pin, which means they
are useless in France/Belgium and a few other countries,
others have very thin brass pins and/or only connect to one
Schuko earth contact

The best ones have full size plated 16A pins [1] and a full
modified Schuko earthing arrangement [2], yet are often
cheaper than the poor ones!

[1] But fused at no more than 13A, obviously!

[2] Note that the 13A earth pin is used for one Schuko earth
contact.

--

Terry

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https://www.avg.com

On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:02:43 +0100, Terry Casey
wrote:

In article , lid
says...

On 30/07/18 17:33, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ,
says...

I have a Schuko socket in my utility room and a lot of
people don't know that that is.

All that would happen is that someone would put an adaptor on eBay to
allow standard plugs to fit non-standard sockets.

Well, they already exist for Schuko to 13A and widely
available!



got one on the ferry to france

In which case you probably paid a premium price for it!

Plenty in the High Street from £1 upwards.

Quality does vary, though, so a visual examination is a good
idea.

Some don't accomodate the French earth pin, which means they
are useless in France/Belgium and a few other countries,
others have very thin brass pins and/or only connect to one
Schuko earth contact

Okay for anything double insulated, which includes many appliances.

The best ones have full size plated 16A pins [1] and a full
modified Schuko earthing arrangement [2], yet are often
cheaper than the poor ones!

Is it necessary to make contact with both side earths? After all, one
earth pin is all it would get in the UK for which the appliance is
presumably designed.

[1] But fused at no more than 13A, obviously!

[2] Note that the 13A earth pin is used for one Schuko earth
contact.

On 31/07/18 12:27, Scott wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:02:43 +0100, Terry Casey
wrote:

In article , lid
says...

On 30/07/18 17:33, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ,
says...

I have a Schuko socket in my utility room and a lot of
people don't know that that is.

All that would happen is that someone would put an adaptor on eBay to
allow standard plugs to fit non-standard sockets.

Well, they already exist for Schuko to 13A and widely
available!



got one on the ferry to france

In which case you probably paid a premium price for it!

£2.99 IIRC


Plenty in the High Street from £1 upwards.


Saw one in boots today £2.99 IIRC

Quality does vary, though, so a visual examination is a good
idea.

Some don't accomodate the French earth pin, which means they
are useless in France/Belgium and a few other countries,
others have very thin brass pins and/or only connect to one
Schuko earth contact

Okay for anything double insulated, which includes many appliances.

The best ones have full size plated 16A pins [1] and a full
modified Schuko earthing arrangement [2], yet are often
cheaper than the poor ones!

Is it necessary to make contact with both side earths? After all, one
earth pin is all it would get in the UK for which the appliance is
presumably designed.

[1] But fused at no more than 13A, obviously!

[2] Note that the 13A earth pin is used for one Schuko earth
contact.


--
€œIt is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.€�

Thomas Sowell

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:02:43 +0100, Terry Casey
wrote:

Some don't accomodate the French earth pin, which means they
are useless in France/Belgium and a few other countries,
others have very thin brass pins and/or only connect to one
Schuko earth contact

Okay for anything double insulated, which includes many appliances.

No. Because the earth pin in the French style connector
protrudes from the socket, a connector not designed to accept
the earth pin won't fit the socket, thus rendering the adaptor
useless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F...wer-socket.jpg


Is it necessary to make contact with both side earths? After all, one
earth pin is all it would get in the UK for which the appliance is
presumably designed.


Probably not but I think that the extra attention to detail
indicates that serious thought has gone into producing a
better quality device. (The construction standards of first
few I saw was very cheap and nasty.)


--

Terry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

In article , lid
says...

On 31/07/18 12:27, Scott wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:02:43 +0100, Terry Casey
wrote:

In article , lid
says...

got one on the ferry to france

In which case you probably paid a premium price for it!

£2.99 IIRC


If you are right, you did very well. Which ferry company?

Whenever I've looked at such items on ferries and the 'Travel
Accessories' displays in chemists, etc., they've usually been
anywhere between £7 and £11.


Plenty in the High Street from £1 upwards.


Saw one in boots today £2.99 IIRC


Interesting. I've got enough for my own needs so don't go
specifically looking for them these days but, just out of
interest, I must start looking again!

--

Terry

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https://www.avg.com

On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 14:10:54 +0100, Terry Casey
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:02:43 +0100, Terry Casey
wrote:

Some don't accomodate the French earth pin, which means they
are useless in France/Belgium and a few other countries,
others have very thin brass pins and/or only connect to one
Schuko earth contact

Okay for anything double insulated, which includes many appliances.

No. Because the earth pin in the French style connector
protrudes from the socket, a connector not designed to accept
the earth pin won't fit the socket, thus rendering the adaptor
useless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F...wer-socket.jpg

I had forgotten about that. That's why a lot of 'hybrid' plugs have a
hole in them.

Is it necessary to make contact with both side earths? After all, one
earth pin is all it would get in the UK for which the appliance is
presumably designed.


Probably not but I think that the extra attention to detail
indicates that serious thought has gone into producing a
better quality device. (The construction standards of first
few I saw was very cheap and nasty.)

I would agree with that reasoning.

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 14:10:54 +0100, Terry Casey
wrote:


No. Because the earth pin in the French style connector
protrudes from the socket, a connector not designed to accept
the earth pin won't fit the socket, thus rendering the adaptor
useless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F...wer-socket.jpg

I had forgotten about that. That's why a lot of 'hybrid' plugs have a
hole in them.

What do you call a 'hybrid' plug? If you mean the modified
Schuko, more correctly known as a CEE 7/7 plug:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_pow..._sockets#/medi
a/File:CEE_7-7.jpg

or https://tinyurl.com/CEE-7-7-plug

you can clearly see the socket for the French earth pin and
the contacts for it.

However, I've also seen 13A adaptors which have a hole but it
in not in the correct place to suit the earth pin or even too
small!

With the better quality devices there will be no uncertainty
that (a) it will fit both types of socket and {b} will provide
a proper earth connection if necessary.


--

Terry

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On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 14:46:20 +0100, Terry Casey
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 14:10:54 +0100, Terry Casey
wrote:


No. Because the earth pin in the French style connector
protrudes from the socket, a connector not designed to accept
the earth pin won't fit the socket, thus rendering the adaptor
useless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F...wer-socket.jpg

I had forgotten about that. That's why a lot of 'hybrid' plugs have a
hole in them.

What do you call a 'hybrid' plug? If you mean the modified
Schuko, more correctly known as a CEE 7/7 plug:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_pow..._sockets#/medi
a/File:CEE_7-7.jpg

or https://tinyurl.com/CEE-7-7-plug

you can clearly see the socket for the French earth pin and
the contacts for it.

That's the one. I think I have seen is described as 'hybrid'
elsewhere.

However, I've also seen 13A adaptors which have a hole but it
in not in the correct place to suit the earth pin or even too
small!

With the better quality devices there will be no uncertainty
that (a) it will fit both types of socket and {b} will provide
a proper earth connection if necessary.

I would agree with that also.