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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
They've lost 5 minutes worth of cycles since mid-January
https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx |
#2
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On 06/03/2018 13:46, Andy Burns wrote:
They've lost 5 minutes worth of cycles since mid-January https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx Seems surprising. I'm not sure if the continental grid is kept synchronised across all countries. In the UK, any daily lag is usually fixed overnight. |
#3
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On 06/03/2018 13:52, newshound wrote:
On 06/03/2018 13:46, Andy Burns wrote: They've lost 5 minutes worth of cycles since mid-January https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx Seems surprising. I'm not sure if the continental grid is kept synchronised across all countries. In the UK, any daily lag is usually fixed overnight. Good job the interconnctors are DC! |
#4
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:06:24 +0000, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 06/03/2018 13:52, newshound wrote: On 06/03/2018 13:46, Andy Burns wrote: They've lost 5 minutes worth of cycles since mid-January https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx Seems surprising. I'm not sure if the continental grid is kept synchronised across all countries. In the UK, any daily lag is usually fixed overnight. Good job the interconnctors are DC! I didn't know / imagine that (or guess why)? Cheers, T i m |
#5
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
Andy Bennet wrote:
On 06/03/2018 13:52, newshound wrote: On 06/03/2018 13:46, Andy Burns wrote: They've lost 5 minutes worth of cycles since mid-January https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx Seems surprising. I'm not sure if the continental grid is kept synchronised across all countries. In the UK, any daily lag is usually fixed overnight. Good job the interconnctors are DC! It's exactly *why* they're DC as I understand it, the difficulty of synchronising our grid with the French grid. For longer cables DC makes sense for other reasons but for the 25 odd miles across the channel I'm pretty sure it was the synchronisation issue that was the reason for using DC. Weren't they originally huge mercury arc rectifiers or is that just my wierd imagination? :-) -- Chris Green · |
#6
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On 06/03/2018 14:32, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:06:24 +0000, Andy Bennet wrote: On 06/03/2018 13:52, newshound wrote: On 06/03/2018 13:46, Andy Burns wrote: They've lost 5 minutes worth of cycles since mid-January https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx Seems surprising. I'm not sure if the continental grid is kept synchronised across all countries. In the UK, any daily lag is usually fixed overnight. I am a bit surprised they have let it drift quite so far though. I guess it must have been very cold everywhere and they lacked any spare capacity to catch up even in the quiet hours of early morning. Good job the interconnctors are DC! I didn't know / imagine that (or guess why)? It is even more important in Japan where the east half the island is on UK 50Hz mains and the west half on US kit at 60Hz. The voltage is also non-standard at 100v which makes it marginal for real US kit to work. -- Regards, Martin Brown |
#7
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On 06/03/18 13:52, newshound wrote:
On 06/03/2018 13:46, Andy Burns wrote: They've lost 5 minutes worth of cycles since mid-January https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx Seems surprising. I'm not sure if the continental grid is kept synchronised across all countries. In the UK, any daily lag is usually fixed overnight. It is. -- "If you dont read the news paper, you are un-informed. If you read the news paper, you are mis-informed." Mark Twain |
#8
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On 06/03/18 14:41, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 14:32:24 +0000, T i m wrote: On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:06:24 +0000, Andy Bennet wrote: On 06/03/2018 13:52, newshound wrote: On 06/03/2018 13:46, Andy Burns wrote: They've lost 5 minutes worth of cycles since mid-January https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx Seems surprising. I'm not sure if the continental grid is kept synchronised across all countries. In the UK, any daily lag is usually fixed overnight. Good job the interconnctors are DC! I didn't know / imagine that (or guess why)? AIUI short-distance undersea interconnectors are sometimes AC, but long-distance ones are almost always DC, because they experience significant capacitance* losses if AC due to being surrounded by an earthed conductor, i.e. salt water. *but might be inductance. IANAE Not usre there are ANY undersea AC links It is capaacitance that kills - power factor is vile and that leads to large out of phase currents which heat the cable up -- "If you dont read the news paper, you are un-informed. If you read the news paper, you are mis-informed." Mark Twain |
#9
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On 06/03/18 14:57, Chris Green wrote:
Andy Bennet wrote: On 06/03/2018 13:52, newshound wrote: On 06/03/2018 13:46, Andy Burns wrote: They've lost 5 minutes worth of cycles since mid-January https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx Seems surprising. I'm not sure if the continental grid is kept synchronised across all countries. In the UK, any daily lag is usually fixed overnight. Good job the interconnctors are DC! It's exactly *why* they're DC as I understand it, the difficulty of synchronising our grid with the French grid. For longer cables DC makes sense for other reasons but for the 25 odd miles across the channel I'm pretty sure it was the synchronisation issue that was the reason for using DC. No, it is losses. Weren't they originally huge mercury arc rectifiers or is that just my wierd imagination? :-) Yes. -- "If you dont read the news paper, you are un-informed. If you read the news paper, you are mis-informed." Mark Twain |
#10
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote: They've lost 5 minutes worth of cycles since mid-January https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx We've not maintained our average either - if the mains locked digital clock I have here is to be believed. It is now further out than at any time since I've had it. -- *We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#11
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On 06/03/2018 16:46, Martin wrote:
On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 13:46:31 +0000, Andy Burns wrote: They've lost 5 minutes worth of cycles since mid-January https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx How much has UK paid for French electricity and foreign gas. What happens if Russia turns off the flow of gas to UK? Something a bit more relevant to worry about in UK. Not much because we don't get much gas from Russia. Now if Russia turned off its gas to the rest of its customers the price would rocket. |
#12
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
Yes well, I whenever convinced it was that accurate since I saw hum bars
rolling down tv screens in the 1960s. I blame the solar inputs from invertors myself. Brian -- ----- - This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please! "Andy Burns" wrote in message ... They've lost 5 minutes worth of cycles since mid-January https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx |
#14
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 14:41:39 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:
snip Good job the interconnctors are DC! I didn't know / imagine that (or guess why)? AIUI short-distance undersea interconnectors are sometimes AC, but long-distance ones are almost always DC, because they experience significant capacitance* losses if AC due to being surrounded by an earthed conductor, i.e. salt water. *but might be inductance. IANAE Thanks Chris, it makes sense. Cheers, T i m |
#15
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On 06/03/2018 16:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/03/18 14:57, Chris Green wrote: Andy Bennet wrote: On 06/03/2018 13:52, newshound wrote: On 06/03/2018 13:46, Andy Burns wrote: They've lost 5 minutes worth of cycles since mid-January https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx Seems surprising. I'm not sure if the continental grid is kept synchronised across all countries. In the UK, any daily lag is usually fixed overnight. Good job the interconnctors are DC! It's exactly *why* they're DC as I understand it, the difficulty of synchronising our grid with the French grid. For longer cables DC makes sense for other reasons but for the 25 odd miles across the channel I'm pretty sure it was the synchronisation issue that was the reason for using DC. No, it is losses. Weren't they originally huge mercury arc rectifiers or is that just my wierd imagination? :-) Yes. Indeed. According to Wikipedia, the largest were rated at 270 MW (the main French interconnector is 2000 MW "However, starting about 1975, silicon devices have made mercury-arc rectifiers largely obsolete, even in HVDC applications. The largest ever mercury-arc rectifiers, built by English Electric, were rated at 150-kV, 1800 A and were used until 2004 at the Nelson River DC Transmission System high-voltage DC-power-transmission project." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercur..._Gillam_MB.jpg |
#16
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes: On 06/03/18 13:52, newshound wrote: On 06/03/2018 13:46, Andy Burns wrote: They've lost 5 minutes worth of cycles since mid-January https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx Seems surprising. I'm not sure if the continental grid is kept synchronised across all countries. In the UK, any daily lag is usually fixed overnight. It is. Before the Berlin wall came down, there were two continental Europe synchronisation zones, Western Europe run from Switzerland, and Eastern Europe run from Moscow. The first was +/- 0.1Hz, the second was +/- 1Hz, IIRC. The western side was actually very short on spare capacity (particularly Germany), and the east had lots, but from highly poluting sources. When the wall came down, Germany was in a dilema at the time on using power from the east which Western German industry desperately needed, but seriously pumping up the resulting polution. I haven't seen a good write-up since the political geography changed. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#17
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 16:05:33 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote: Not usre there are ANY undersea AC links Isle of Man to Bispham near Blackpool 40MW at 90kV 104km (longest in the world) Spain to Morocco 600MW @ 400kV 27km -- |
#18
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 14:57:56 +0000, Chris Green wrote:
Andy Bennet wrote: On 06/03/2018 13:52, newshound wrote: On 06/03/2018 13:46, Andy Burns wrote: They've lost 5 minutes worth of cycles since mid-January https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx Seems surprising. I'm not sure if the continental grid is kept synchronised across all countries. In the UK, any daily lag is usually fixed overnight. Good job the interconnctors are DC! It's exactly *why* they're DC as I understand it, the difficulty of synchronising our grid with the French grid. Isolating the grids into separate frequency regions is useful with a relatively weak connection but it's not just for system stability and frequency purposes, the losses are lower and above all you have the ability to alter power transfer. If the UK agrees with France for a 500MW export from our end that is nothing more than a few key presses away. They can set a specific export level almost regardless of the prevailing conditions on the AC network with small balancing adjustments in the order of 10's of MW's easy to make. The effect of that transfer will be to make the UK frequency and voltage to drop and the continental frequency and voltage to rise. That will be corrected by the generator governors responding throttling back the continent and raising in the UK. Reverting to a fully floating state and reversing flow without physically breaking the connection is also extremely rapid. That transfer adjustment can be done on an AC network with quadrature boosters, but then the losses end to end would be significantly higher and there would be no separation of frequency region. For longer cables DC makes sense for other reasons but for the 25 odd miles across the channel I'm pretty sure it was the synchronisation issue that was the reason for using DC. Weren't they originally huge mercury arc rectifiers or is that just my wierd imagination? :-) The original link built back in the 60's did, the 2GW link from the 80's uses thyristors. Fully updated and refitted a few years ago with a new control scheme and uprated power electronics. -- |
#19
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On 07/03/18 09:46, The Other Mike wrote:
Isolating the grids into separate frequency regions is useful with a relatively weak connection but it's not just for system stability and frequency purposes, the losses are lower and above all you have the ability to alter power transfer. Yes. The propagation delay across the USA mandates that at 60Hz you really dont wannna be THAT big..ortherwise your i8nphasde geretair is out of phase at the other side of the country. I suspect that the European grid may yet fragment a little more into chinks with DC interconnectirs. about 2000km is as big as I think you want to be -- Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do! |
#20
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
In article , briang1
@blueyonder.co.uk says... Yes well, I whenever convinced it was that accurate since I saw hum bars rolling down tv screens in the 1960s. Ah yes, I remember them well - bit our mains driven Smiths Sectric clock was always right to the second at 8am the following day! -- Terry --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com |
#21
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
In article ,
Terry Casey wrote: In article , briang1 @blueyonder.co.uk says... Yes well, I whenever convinced it was that accurate since I saw hum bars rolling down tv screens in the 1960s. Ah yes, I remember them well - bit our mains driven Smiths Sectric clock was always right to the second at 8am the following day! I've just adjusted my mains locked large LED digital clock by a minute - for the second time this year. First time I've had to bother - except when the hour changes. -- *The man who fell into an upholstery machine is fully recovered* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#22
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 14:49:19 +0000, Terry Casey wrote:
In article , briang1 @blueyonder.co.uk says... Yes well, I whenever convinced it was that accurate since I saw hum bars rolling down tv screens in the 1960s. Ah yes, I remember them well - but our mains driven Smiths Sectric clock was always right to the second at 8am the following day! Hum bars would have only become apparent with the advent of colour TV broadcasting which started mid 1967 in the UK. Prior to that, the monochrome broadcasts (both 405 and 625 line) were locked to the national grid. I remember admiring the frequent adjustments being made (about every 15 seconds or so) by the national grid when watching the barely perceivable hum bars roll up and down the mid grey, "after hours" raster display on our TV set in the late 70s when it was obvious the master power station (s) was (were) being controlled from a crystal/atomic clock reference source to retain the grid's state of hard won resynchronisation with 'real time' during the wee small hours. -- Johnny B Good |
#23
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote: On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 14:49:19 +0000, Terry Casey wrote: In article , briang1 @blueyonder.co.uk says... Yes well, I whenever convinced it was that accurate since I saw hum bars rolling down tv screens in the 1960s. Ah yes, I remember them well - but our mains driven Smiths Sectric clock was always right to the second at 8am the following day! Hum bars would have only become apparent with the advent of colour TV broadcasting which started mid 1967 in the UK. Prior to that, the monochrome broadcasts (both 405 and 625 line) were locked to the national grid. I'm pretty sure the BBC went off mains lock once BBC2 turned up. I remember admiring the frequent adjustments being made (about every 15 seconds or so) by the national grid when watching the barely perceivable hum bars roll up and down the mid grey, "after hours" raster display on our TV set in the late 70s when it was obvious the master power station (s) was (were) being controlled from a crystal/atomic clock reference source to retain the grid's state of hard won resynchronisation with 'real time' during the wee small hours. -- from KT24 in Surrey, England |
#24
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
Andrew Gabriel
Before the Berlin wall came down, there were two continental Europe synchronisation zones, Western Europe run from Switzerland, and Eastern Europe run from Moscow. The first was +/- 0.1Hz, the second was +/- 1Hz, IIRC. The western side was actually very short on spare capacity (particularly Germany), and the east had lots, but from highly poluting sources. When the wall came down, Germany was in a dilema at the time on using power from the east which Western German industry desperately needed, but seriously pumping up the resulting Germany and Austria also have a separate grid to distribute power for their railways,due to the electrification commencing in the 1900s and the characteristics of motors of the era a low frequency of 16 and two thirds was adopted. This low frequency is also used in Switzerland and Scandinavia but they tend to generate from nearby hydro or convert from the 50hz grid where required. GH |
#25
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On 08/03/2018 23:14, Marland wrote:
Andrew Gabriel Before the Berlin wall came down, there were two continental Europe synchronisation zones, Western Europe run from Switzerland, and Eastern Europe run from Moscow. The first was +/- 0.1Hz, the second was +/- 1Hz, IIRC. The western side was actually very short on spare capacity (particularly Germany), and the east had lots, but from highly poluting sources. When the wall came down, Germany was in a dilema at the time on using power from the east which Western German industry desperately needed, but seriously pumping up the resulting Germany and Austria also have a separate grid to distribute power for their railways,due to the electrification commencing in the 1900s and the characteristics of motors of the era a low frequency of 16 and two thirds was adopted. This low frequency is also used in Switzerland and Scandinavia but they tend to generate from nearby hydro or convert from the 50hz grid where required. They must have 'normous transformers. -- Max Demian |
#26
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote: Hum bars would have only become apparent with the advent of colour TV broadcasting which started mid 1967 in the UK. Prior to that, the monochrome broadcasts (both 405 and 625 line) were locked to the national grid. Not so. They went off mains lock some time before colour. I think it may have been not long after BBC2 started. -- *I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#27
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On Fri, 09 Mar 2018 00:14:28 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Johnny B Good wrote: Hum bars would have only become apparent with the advent of colour TV broadcasting which started mid 1967 in the UK. Prior to that, the monochrome broadcasts (both 405 and 625 line) were locked to the national grid. Not so. They went off mains lock some time before colour. I think it may have been not long after BBC2 started. Interesting, I wasn't aware that they'd divorced the system from the mains frequency ahead of time. Prior to the start of actual colour broadcasting, the 625 line system could have remained locked to the national grid frequency. It was only when the PAL colour system came into use that they were obliged to synchronise everything to the colour burst frequency and run independently of the national grid reference which was no longer stable enough in the short term to be of any use in the PAL system. Presumably, this change was implemented early on in readiness for colour transmissions, perhaps to ease the final transition to a system that could no longer be locked to the mains frequency. -- Johnny B Good |
#28
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
In article ,
Max Demian writes: On 08/03/2018 23:14, Marland wrote: Andrew Gabriel Before the Berlin wall came down, there were two continental Europe synchronisation zones, Western Europe run from Switzerland, and Eastern Europe run from Moscow. The first was +/- 0.1Hz, the second was +/- 1Hz, IIRC. The western side was actually very short on spare capacity (particularly Germany), and the east had lots, but from highly poluting sources. When the wall came down, Germany was in a dilema at the time on using power from the east which Western German industry desperately needed, but seriously pumping up the resulting Germany and Austria also have a separate grid to distribute power for their railways,due to the electrification commencing in the 1900s and the characteristics of motors of the era a low frequency of 16 and two thirds was adopted. This low frequency is also used in Switzerland and Scandinavia but they tend to generate from nearby hydro or convert from the 50hz grid where required. They must have 'normous transformers. 3 times the size, and they have to be carried by the train. However, they couldn't make large powerful motors which ran on 50Hz at the time, because the winding inductance would be too high to get the necessary power in without the windings having to operate at voltages which winding insulation couldn't withstand. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#29
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote: Presumably, this change was implemented early on in readiness for colour transmissions, perhaps to ease the final transition to a system that could no longer be locked to the mains frequency. It may have been to do with the increasing use of outside broadcasts and so on as inserts to programmes. Think things like Nationwide. Where those might use their own generator or battery supply. You could lock the studio to a pulse generator anywhere, allowing pictures to be mixed between the two. Terms like genlock and natlock were bandied about at the time. And of course a VTR needs a stable 50 Hz reference too. Which mains simply isn't. If a VTR is locked to mains, its playing time will vary with that mains frequency. Not exactly ideal. -- *I speak fluent patriarchy but it's not my mother tongue Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#30
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On 09/03/2018 10:15, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article , Max Demian writes: On 08/03/2018 23:14, Marland wrote: Andrew Gabriel Before the Berlin wall came down, there were two continental Europe synchronisation zones, Western Europe run from Switzerland, and Eastern Europe run from Moscow. The first was +/- 0.1Hz, the second was +/- 1Hz, IIRC. The western side was actually very short on spare capacity (particularly Germany), and the east had lots, but from highly poluting sources. When the wall came down, Germany was in a dilema at the time on using power from the east which Western German industry desperately needed, but seriously pumping up the resulting Germany and Austria also have a separate grid to distribute power for their railways,due to the electrification commencing in the 1900€„¢s and the characteristics of motors of the era a low frequency of 16 and two thirds was adopted. This low frequency is also used in Switzerland and Scandinavia but they tend to generate from nearby hydro or convert from the 50hz grid where required. They must have 'normous transformers. 3 times the size, and they have to be carried by the train. However, they couldn't make large powerful motors which ran on 50Hz at the time, because the winding inductance would be too high to get the necessary power in without the windings having to operate at voltages which winding insulation couldn't withstand. They could have used DC generation, or rectified the AC (if there were suitable rectifiers in those days). -- Max Demian |
#31
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On Friday, 9 March 2018 11:26:05 UTC, Max Demian wrote:
On 09/03/2018 10:15, Andrew Gabriel wrote: In article , Max Demian writes: On 08/03/2018 23:14, Marland wrote: Andrew Gabriel Before the Berlin wall came down, there were two continental Europe synchronisation zones, Western Europe run from Switzerland, and Eastern Europe run from Moscow. The first was +/- 0.1Hz, the second was +/- 1Hz, IIRC. The western side was actually very short on spare capacity (particularly Germany), and the east had lots, but from highly poluting sources. When the wall came down, Germany was in a dilema at the time on using power from the east which Western German industry desperately needed, but seriously pumping up the resulting Germany and Austria also have a separate grid to distribute power for their railways,due to the electrification commencing in the 1900€„¢s and the characteristics of motors of the era a low frequency of 16 and two thirds was adopted. This low frequency is also used in Switzerland and Scandinavia but they tend to generate from nearby hydro or convert from the 50hz grid where required. They must have 'normous transformers. 3 times the size, and they have to be carried by the train. However, they couldn't make large powerful motors which ran on 50Hz at the time, because the winding inductance would be too high to get the necessary power in without the windings having to operate at voltages which winding insulation couldn't withstand. They could have used DC generation, or rectified the AC (if there were suitable rectifiers in those days). 16Hz is better able to overcome stiction due to its (physically) pulsing nature. NT |
#32
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On 09/03/2018 00:21, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 13:46:31 -0000, Andy Burns wrote: They've lost 5 minutes worth of cycles since mid-January https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx Why the **** are we trying to synch the whole ****ing grid instead of just.... stop using outdated piece of **** clocks that actually use the mains to keep time!!! There may not be many synchronous *clocks* around nowadays, but there must be *millions* of synchronous *timeswitches" in use for various purposes, from Economy 7 metering to the ones used to fool burglars into thinking there are people at home by switching the lights on and off at arbitrary intervals. (The cops used to give away the latter; I've never known quite how to use them: do you only use them when going out for the evening, or, also, when you go away on holiday? If the latter, do you open, or close the curtains? If you leave them closed it would make the house look unoccupied; if open, people would be able to see inside at night when the lights come on. And are they even effective in deterring burglars, or are they just to make people /feel/ safer?) -- Max Demian |
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
In article ,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote: I just don't worry about burglars. If you want to, then own two cars. Always leave one in the driveway. Way too risky to burgle a house with a car present. They'd just nick the car instead... -- *If all is not lost, where the hell is it? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#34
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On Friday, 9 March 2018 18:55:14 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , James Wilkinson Sword wrote: I just don't worry about burglars. If you want to, then own two cars. Always leave one in the driveway. Way too risky to burgle a house with a car present. They'd just nick the car instead... the majority of uk burglaries are hot prowl NT |
#35
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
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#36
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On 09/03/2018 15:33, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 09 Mar 2018 11:59:21 -0000, Max Demian wrote: On 09/03/2018 00:21, James Wilkinson Sword wrote: On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 13:46:31 -0000, Andy Burns wrote: They've lost 5 minutes worth of cycles since mid-January https://www.entsoe.eu/news-events/announcements/announcements-archive/Pages/News/Frequency-deviations-in-Continental-Europe-including-impact-on-electric-clocks-steered-by-frequency.aspx Why the **** are we trying to synch the whole ****ing grid instead of just.... stop using outdated piece of **** clocks that actually use the mains to keep time!!! There may not be many synchronous *clocks* around nowadays, but there must be *millions* of synchronous *timeswitches" in use for various purposes, from Economy 7 metering The economy 7 ones must be cleverer than that as they don't lose time if there's a 2 hour powercut. The traditional electromechanical timeswitches used for Economy 7 have a "clockwork reserve": if the power goes off they switch to a clockwork mechanism, which is wound up when the power comes back. About once a day they switch to clockwork to keep the mechanism going and the oil liquid - the last place I lived it started ticking for a couple of minutes every 6:30 pm. to the ones used to fool burglars into thinking there are people at home by switching the lights on and off at arbitrary intervals. Why on earth would those need to know the time?* They turn the lights on and off when it's dark. Not those kind of lights; re-read the paragraph. (The cops used to give away the latter; I've never known quite how to use them: do you only use them when going out for the evening, or, also, when you go away on holiday? If the latter, do you open, or close the curtains? If you leave them closed it would make the house look unoccupied; if open, people would be able to see inside at night when the lights come on. And are they even effective in deterring burglars, or are they just to make people /feel/ safer?) I just don't worry about burglars.* If you want to, then own two cars. Always leave one in the driveway.* Way too risky to burgle a house with a car present. They may be burglarising (very quietly) to get your car keys. -- Max Demian |
#37
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On 09/03/18 19:27, Max Demian wrote:
On 09/03/2018 11:32, wrote: On Friday, 9 March 2018 11:26:05 UTC, Max DemianÂ* wrote: On 09/03/2018 10:15, Andrew Gabriel wrote: In article , Â*Â*Â*Â*Max Demian writes: On 08/03/2018 23:14, Marland wrote: Germany and Austria also have a separate grid to distribute power for their railways,due to the electrification commencing in the 1900€„¢s and the characteristics of motors of the era a low frequency of 16 and two thirds was adopted. This low frequency is also used in Switzerland and Scandinavia but they tend to generate from nearby hydro or convert from the 50hz grid where required. They must have 'normous transformers. 3 times the size, and they have to be carried by the train. However, they couldn't make large powerful motors which ran on 50Hz at the time, because the winding inductance would be too high to get the necessary power in without the windings having to operate at voltages which winding insulation couldn't withstand. They could have used DC generation, or rectified the AC (if there were suitable rectifiers in those days). 16Hz is better able to overcome stiction due to its (physically) pulsing nature. I thought electric trains connect(ed) their motors in parallel mode to start off, which is why they always (used to) start with a jerk. Series, more like, to limit current. Jerk is just the inability to reduce it ENOUGH. Modern trains start with a chopped buzziness. -- "I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently. This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and all women" |
#38
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
"Max Demian" wrote in message
... They may be burglarising (very quietly) to get your car keys. I keep my keys in my trouser pocket (and my trousers are beside my bed) so I always have house and car keys if I need to get up and leave the house urgently in the middle of the night. I don't remove them at night and hang them up downstairs on a hook labelled "burglars - here are my keys" ;-) Mind you, today's burglars would probably wake me up and torture me to get the keys... |
#39
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On 09/03/2018 19:42, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 09 Mar 2018 19:18:53 -0000, wrote: On Friday, 9 March 2018 18:55:14 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)* wrote: In article , ** James Wilkinson Sword wrote: I just don't worry about burglars.* If you want to, then own two cars. Always leave one in the driveway.* Way too risky to burgle a house with a car present. They'd just nick the car instead... the majority of uk burglaries are hot prowl That sounds kinky, what does it mean? GIYF. -- Max Demian |
#40
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Continental europe having problems with 50Hz
On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 23:37:18 +0000, Max Demian wrote:
GIYF. GFY, idiot! |
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