On 05/02/2018 13:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
If we stopped people refusing work offers, stopped benefits etc,

I agree, all state benefits should stop.

Apart from the ones you and your family get, obviously.

Naturally, of course.

On 05/02/2018 12:24, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Brian Reay has brought this to us :
We have a serious problem with people who expect to be carried by
others and/or paid more than their skills etc justify.

If we stopped people refusing work offers, stopped benefits etc,
stamped down on those who have one identity for benefits and another
for a 'side line', we could reduce welfare spending and force our lazy
scroungers to do the jobs migrants do. The latter would reduce the
attraction of the UK to migrants.

+1 !!!

Do you work? Perhaps state benefits should be withheld from you too.

I'm sure there's some work in Cornwall for you, sorry no accommodation,
bring a tent, cheap pitch fees. Oh and you have to provide your own
train fare.

On 05/02/2018 14:25, Ash Burton wrote:
On 04/02/2018 22:11, dennis@home wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-engl...bs-in-cornwall


Fruit and vegetable picking is a mainly seasonal job which used to be
traditionlly done by students/young people during their generous holiday
periods.

It seems the modern younger generations eschewed this work and left it
to migrants which is ironic as we are led to believe the snowflakes now
find this work too onerous and hard.

Your forefathers said the same about your generation, that was probably
something like "lazy, good for nothing". Tends to be directed to anyone
who don't yet think policemen look young.

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 05/02/2018 13:40, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
GB wrote:
On 05/02/2018 10:57, T i m wrote:
Some people really don't have any drive. Most of the EU
migrant workers do (as most people I have spoken to seem to agree).

It's self-selecting. It takes drive just to migrate, let alone to do the
work.

Quite. It would seem many UK born unemployed won't travel a few miles for
work - let alone several hundred.

Some of us, we just need an incentive.

And just what would that be?

For someone who doesn't work, it's a little two faced to complain when
others choose not to.

I'm retired, pet. And never out of work during my working life.

It doesn't help having a tax and benefit system that disincentives
casual work.

Are you of the 'let's force the unemployed to take any work' loony view,
then?

--
*Just remember...if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Fredxx submitted this idea :
Do you work? Perhaps state benefits should be withheld from you too.

Nope, I'm retired, taking a well deserved pension which I have paid
into for my entire working life. I have more than done my bit.

Fredxx brought next idea :
Perhaps state benefits should be withheld from you too.

That might be difficult, because I don't get any at all, not a penny
:-)

On 05/02/2018 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
which was done
by school children, but paid for.

I think you'll find that to employ someone under a certain
age, the employer has to be CRB checked which isn't cheap.

Blame todays nanny state.

On 05/02/2018 16:00, Fredxx wrote:
On 05/02/2018 14:25, Ash Burton wrote:
On 04/02/2018 22:11, dennis@home wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-engl...bs-in-cornwall


Fruit and vegetable picking is a mainly seasonal job which used to be
traditionlly done by students/young people during their generous
holiday periods.

It seems the modern younger generations eschewed this work and left it
to migrants which is ironic as we are led to believe the snowflakes
now find this work too onerous and hard.

Your forefathers said the same about your generation, that was probably
something like "lazy, good for nothing". Tends to be directed to anyone
who don't yet think policemen look young.

Not sot, when i was young (mid 1960's and b4 we joind the EEC) ) this
work was done by mainly young british workers. It is the modern day
'snowflakes' who don't seem to want to do it.

On Monday, 5 February 2018 12:23:26 UTC, Bob Eager wrote:
On Mon, 05 Feb 2018 04:18:16 -0800, whisky-dave wrote:

Yes big business wanting slave labour I';m suprired we don't go back to
the days of slavery it was certainly better for the country and
empoyers,
perhaps T i m can explain why slavery came to an end. It does seem that
some want to bring this sort of workforce back.

The workers I saw being interviewed said that if they worked hard, they
were getting £800 a week.

I saw a program where strawberry pickers earnt 10-£15 per hour.
Bugt you had to get to the fields first.

On Monday, 5 February 2018 13:42:09 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
GB wrote:
On 05/02/2018 10:57, T i m wrote:
Some people really don't have any drive. Most of the EU
migrant workers do (as most people I have spoken to seem to agree).

It's self-selecting. It takes drive just to migrate, let alone to do the
work.

Quite. It would seem many UK born unemployed won't travel a few miles for
work - let alone several hundred.

Do you have any idea of the cost of transport for even a few miles.
A friends niece only lived 8 miles from where she was going to be employed but there was no public transport so had to take out a loan to buy a car for her first job, this was up north in staffordshire.

Why dio you think employers supply sheds for fruit pickers ?

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fredxx brought next idea :
Perhaps state benefits should be withheld from you too.

That might be difficult, because I don't get any at all, not a penny
:-)

Thought you said you get a pension?

--
*Horn broken. - Watch for finger.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
On 05/02/2018 11:01, tim... wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 02:59:13 +0000, Bill Wright
wrote:

On 04/02/2018 23:11, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 22:11:12 +0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-engl...bs-in-cornwall

I saw a program a while back where they ran teams of British and EU
workers side by side (crop picking, building etc) and the Europeans
won out in every case.

Maybe when the current good ones go, we don't want to do it ourselves
and they get the second level Europeans in, the Brexiteers will
realise the extent of the damage they have inflicted on all of us.

There's no reason why we shouldn't import workers from anywhere in the
world if it suits us, once we regain our sovereignty.

Why don't we do that now then? The split of people coming here because
of the free movement of people and workers within the EU and those
already coming into this country via the std immigration / customers
controls are about the same (180k/a I think).

the difference is that 80% of the EU immigrants a
"unemployed seeking work" (with an entitlement to in-work benefits if
they find one)
and 80% of the ROW immigrants a
Highly skilled worker with a guaranteed job to go to
or
family member who will be financially supported by their family already
here
(with no entitlement to any benefits.)

in both cases having had to jump through multiple hoops to qualify for
that status.

tim





Well that may cause a problem as 2017 figures say 4% of EU born migrants
are on unemployment benefits while over 6% of immigrants from elsewhere
are on unemployment benefits so your 80% is probably another brexiteer
lie.

the problem is in work benefits

not unemployment benefit

tim

On 05/02/2018 13:20, Fredxx wrote:
On 05/02/2018 12:44, dennis@home wrote:
On 05/02/2018 11:15, Fredxx wrote:
On 05/02/2018 09:42, Brian Reay wrote:
On 04/02/2018 22:11, dennis@home wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-engl...bs-in-cornwall





Hardly a surprise.

We have a serious problem with people who expect to be carried by
others and/or paid more than their skills etc justify.

Do you work as much as those lazy people who are carried by those who
do?

If we stopped people refusing work offers, stopped benefits etc,

I agree, all state benefits should stop.

I am not sure that anyone wants ~40% of the population starving.
It would be very difficult to control once people start to rebel.

Maybe you should build the gas chambers first?

I was merely agreeing with you, are you the sort to have gas chambers in
mind?


You aren't agreeing with me even though you replied to me.

On 04/02/2018 22:11, dennis@home wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-engl...bs-in-cornwall


If they're in reasonable physical condition, they could do it. Even I
used to work in a factory over the summer, unloading pop from conveyor
belt to pallet. The only rest breaks were when the machine jammed. So by
that yardstick . . . :-)

I'd think the biggest issues for a lot of British people would be
housing (where they live in-season, and what happens to their permanent
home), social networks, and uncertainty of temporary work. For
relatively poor migrant workers these relatively basic needs are
compromised.


--
Cheers, Rob

On 05/02/2018 16:23, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fredxx brought next idea :
Perhaps state benefits should be withheld from you too.

That might be difficult, because I don't get any at all, not a penny :-)

The NHS and pensions are state benefits.

On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 5:20:20 PM UTC, RJH wrote:
On 04/02/2018 22:11, dennis@home wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-engl...bs-in-cornwall


If they're in reasonable physical condition, they could do it. Even I
used to work in a factory over the summer, unloading pop from conveyor
belt to pallet. The only rest breaks were when the machine jammed. So by
that yardstick . . . :-)

I'd think the biggest issues for a lot of British people would be
housing (where they live in-season, and what happens to their permanent
home), social networks, and uncertainty of temporary work. For
relatively poor migrant workers these relatively basic needs are
compromised.


--
Cheers, Rob

I was either 11 or 12 when I learned that there were rules coming in that you had to be 13 to pick potatoes, I remember the disappointment.
Still got a couple days work for the two years I was under age though.

On 05/02/2018 17:21, dennis@home wrote:
On 05/02/2018 16:23, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fredxx brought next idea :
Perhaps state benefits should be withheld from you too.

That might be difficult, because I don't get any at all, not a penny :-)

The NHS and pensions are state benefits.


They may be state benefits but most people will have contributed for a
minimum of 30 years to get the state pension and the NHS is also funded
from National insurance.

On 05/02/2018 17:20, RJH wrote:
On 04/02/2018 22:11, dennis@home wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-engl...bs-in-cornwall


If they're in reasonable physical condition, they could do it. Even I
used to work in a factory over the summer, unloading pop from conveyor
belt to pallet. The only rest breaks were when the machine jammed. So by
that yardstick . . . :-)

I'd think the biggest issues for a lot of British people would be
housing (where they live in-season, and what happens to their permanent
home), social networks, and uncertainty of temporary work. For
relatively poor migrant workers these relatively basic needs are
compromised.


Not if you recruit in the locality. When i did crop picking a lorry
collected us from the town and took us to the farm location, no
accomodation required.

Dave Plowman (News) was thinking very hard :
Thought you said you get a pension?

That is hardly the same thing at all, now is it?

Ash Burton formulated on Monday :
They may be state benefits but most people will have contributed for a
minimum of 30 years to get the state pension and the NHS is also funded from
National insurance.

Exactly!

whisky-dave formulated the question :
A friends niece only lived 8 miles from where she was going to be employed
but there was no public transport so had to take out a loan to buy a car for
her first job, this was up north in staffordshire.

My first job was a similar distance from home. There was public
transport, but I bought a bike, then a moped, then a motorbike to get
me there - to save the cost. A car would have been far to expensive.

On 05/02/2018 18:01, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) was thinking very hard :
Thought you said you get a pension?

That is hardly the same thing at all, now is it?

The state pension is a benefit provided by the state.
The pension top is another benefit provided by the state.
The NHS, dentists, police, fire service, etc. are all benefits provided
by the state.

Which ones don't you use?

On 05/02/2018 17:04, tim... wrote:


"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
On 05/02/2018 11:01, tim... wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 02:59:13 +0000, Bill Wright
wrote:

On 04/02/2018 23:11, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 22:11:12 +0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-engl...bs-in-cornwall


I saw a program a while back where they ran teams of British and EU
workers side by side (crop picking, building etc) and the Europeans
won out in every case.

Maybe when the current good ones go, we don't want to do it ourselves
and they get the second level Europeans in, the Brexiteers will
realise the extent of the damage they have inflicted on all of us.

There's no reason why we shouldn't import workers from anywhere in the
world if it suits us, once we regain our sovereignty.

Why don't we do that now then? The split of people coming here because
of the free movement of people and workers within the EU and those
already coming into this country via the std immigration / customers
controls are about the same (180k/a I think).

the difference is that 80% of the EU immigrants a
"unemployed seeking work" (with an entitlement to in-work benefits if
they find one)
and 80% of the ROW immigrants a
Highly skilled worker with a guaranteed job to go to
or
family member who will be financially supported by their family
already here
(with no entitlement to any benefits.)

in both cases having had to jump through multiple hoops to qualify
for that status.

tim





Well that may cause a problem as 2017 figures say 4% of EU born
migrants are on unemployment benefits while over 6% of immigrants from
elsewhere are on unemployment benefits so your 80% is probably another
brexiteer lie.

the problem is in work benefits

Which have exploded through suppression of wages through immigrant labour.

not unemployment benefit

So it's not a problem when someone says "it's not worth my while working".

A bit like yourself I might expect?

On 05/02/2018 16:22, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fredxx submitted this idea :
Do you work? Perhaps state benefits should be withheld from you too.

Nope, I'm retired, taking a well deserved pension which I have paid into
for my entire working life. I have more than done my bit.

Deserved? Paid by others who do work?

Everyone can say they "have done more than my bit".

And you expect others to retire at a much later age than yourself and
still say you've "done your bit".

Its always someone else can pick cabbages in Cornwall for peanuts rather
than a living wage.

On 05/02/2018 16:23, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fredxx brought next idea :
Perhaps state benefits should be withheld from you too.

That might be difficult, because I don't get any at all, not a penny :-)

Do you not get a state pension?

Perhaps people who are on the dole might say the same as you too.

On 05/02/2018 17:52, Ash Burton wrote:
On 05/02/2018 17:21, dennis@home wrote:
On 05/02/2018 16:23, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fredxx brought next idea :
Perhaps state benefits should be withheld from you too.

That might be difficult, because I don't get any at all, not a penny :-)

The NHS and pensions are state benefits.


They may be state benefits but most people will have contributed for a
minimum of 30 years to get the state pension and the NHS is also funded
from National insurance.

Other benefits are funded by the same things.
national insurance just goes into the general tax fund like income tax
and VAT.
Many women have never contributed to their pensions as they didn't have
to when they were married.

So stopping all state benefits is going to result in riots and death as
well as a military coup as the government that does it needs removing.

On 05/02/2018 18:01, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) was thinking very hard :
Thought you said you get a pension?

That is hardly the same thing at all, now is it?

It is very much the same thing. The state fund is empty, those who work
pay your pension.

On 05/02/2018 17:52, Ash Burton wrote:
On 05/02/2018 17:21, dennis@home wrote:
On 05/02/2018 16:23, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fredxx brought next idea :
Perhaps state benefits should be withheld from you too.

That might be difficult, because I don't get any at all, not a penny :-)

The NHS and pensions are state benefits.


They may be state benefits but most people will have contributed for a
minimum of 30 years to get the state pension and the NHS is also funded
from National insurance.

So there is an entitlement, that doesn't stop it being a state benefit.

On 05/02/2018 18:02, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Ash Burton formulated on Monday :
They may be state benefits but most people will have contributed for a
minimum of 30 years to get the state pension and the NHS is also
funded from National insurance.

Exactly!

Which is broke, and kept afloat by current payments from those who work.

People like you never paid enough into the fund. Perhaps you should look
up how long the fund would be able to pay your pension if contributions
stopped tomorrow.

On 05/02/2018 16:50, Ash Burton wrote:
On 05/02/2018 16:00, Fredxx wrote:
On 05/02/2018 14:25, Ash Burton wrote:
On 04/02/2018 22:11, dennis@home wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-engl...bs-in-cornwall


Fruit and vegetable picking is a mainly seasonal job which used to be
traditionlly done by students/young people during their generous
holiday periods.

It seems the modern younger generations eschewed this work and left
it to migrants which is ironic as we are led to believe the
snowflakes now find this work too onerous and hard.

Your forefathers said the same about your generation, that was
probably something like "lazy, good for nothing". Tends to be directed
to anyone who don't yet think policemen look young.

Not sot, when i was young (mid 1960's and b4 we joind the EEC) ) this
work was done by mainly young british workers. It is the modern day
'snowflakes' who don't seem to want to do it.

QED

On 05/02/2018 16:35, Andrew wrote:
On 05/02/2018 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
which was done
by school children, but paid for.

I think you'll find that to employ someone under a certain
age, the employer has to be CRB checked which isn't cheap.

And an employer might not want risk having his youthful indiscretions
exposed.

Blame todays nanny state.

Blame Esther Rantzen.

Or Michael Bichard, who, possibly wilfully, misinterpreted what happened
in Soham in 2002. (If CRB checks had existed then the murders would
likely still have happened as Huntley's access to the girls was through
his girlfriend and was nothing to do with his employment at the
*secondary* school.)

--
Max Demian

On 05/02/2018 10:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
When I was at school I picked potatoes. The first day was hard, but you got used to it. The BBC clip was a pointless exercise, perhaps if they had done it for a week they would have got into the swing of it.

Speak for yourself!

I didn't last a week.

In the part of Scotland where I was born and educated, country areas had
different school summer holidays to cover 'tattie houwking' which was done
by school children, but paid for. The majority who did this seemed to
manage OK.

I too was brought up in Scotland but I suspect in a much more 'citified'
area (Burdiehouse utskirts of Edinburgh) .
Our classroom looked out onto fields .
"Has anyone seen Joe Stewart"? "Yes miss there he is there, working
in that field

On 05/02/2018 10:57, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 22:48:33 -0800 (PST), misterroy
wrote:

snip

When I was at school I picked potatoes.

Was this a class? ;-)

The first day was hard, but you got used to it.

Yup, the human body is pretty good / quick to adapt to such things but
the human mind / spirit less so.

It's the same logic as for people on benefits where if they did work
they would end up *much* worse off, even to the extent of having to
pay for dental treatment etc.

The BBC clip was a pointless exercise, perhaps if they had done it for a week they would have got into the swing of it.

I'd have to agree that they didn't look like what you would typically
consider to be 'land workers' and so are unlikely to have the right
disposition for that sort of work.

So, even if they were given the choice of going without food or doing
that sort of work full time, I'm sure some of them would simply starve
to death. Some people really don't have any drive. Most of the EU
migrant workers do (as most people I have spoken to seem to agree).

I also saw a program where they were talking of putting long term
benefit people in the Army and the Army was saying 'why should they be
their problem'.

It would be the same thing with getting prison inmates to do such
work, like the days of sewing up mailbags or printing number plates
(or breaking rocks before that).

Wasn't the breaking rocks thing, just busy work? The 'making gravel' for
construction projects ,even, in Victorian times could be done quicker
and better by machines.

On Mon, 05 Feb 2018 17:01:55 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fredxx brought next idea :
Perhaps state benefits should be withheld from you too.

That might be difficult, because I don't get any at all, not a penny
:-)

Thought you said you get a pension?

Pensions aren't 'benefits', although many try to claim they are.

They are paid into (even the state one) and then they are paid out.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 5 February 2018 13:42:09 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
GB wrote:
On 05/02/2018 10:57, T i m wrote:
Some people really don't have any drive. Most of the EU
migrant workers do (as most people I have spoken to seem to agree).

It's self-selecting. It takes drive just to migrate, let alone to do
the work.

Quite. It would seem many UK born unemployed won't travel a few miles
for work - let alone several hundred.

Do you have any idea of the cost of transport for even a few miles. A
friends niece only lived 8 miles from where she was going to be employed
but there was no public transport so had to take out a loan to buy a car
for her first job, this was up north in staffordshire.

Why dio you think employers supply sheds for fruit pickers ?

No need to tell me, Dave. Tell those who think any old unemployed from
anywhere should be forced to take those jobs.
Except their family and friends. Obviously.


--
*If one synchronized swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown too?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
On 05/02/2018 16:23, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fredxx brought next idea :
Perhaps state benefits should be withheld from you too.

That might be difficult, because I don't get any at all, not a penny :-)

The NHS and pensions are state benefits.

Yes. But wanting benefits stopped only applies to others. Those on here
who get them will say they are entitled to them.

--
*My wife and I had words. But I didn't get to use mine.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Ash Burton wrote:
On 05/02/2018 17:21, dennis@home wrote:
On 05/02/2018 16:23, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fredxx brought next idea :
Perhaps state benefits should be withheld from you too.

That might be difficult, because I don't get any at all, not a penny :-)

The NHS and pensions are state benefits.


They may be state benefits but most people will have contributed for a
minimum of 30 years to get the state pension and the NHS is also funded
from National insurance.

And you might need the NHS for something serious at any time in your life.
Regardless of how much you have paid in. If you are unlucky. So absolutely
no different from unemployment benefit.

--
*It doesn't take a genius to spot a goat in a flock of sheep *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) was thinking very hard :
Thought you said you get a pension?

That is hardly the same thing at all, now is it?

Of course it is. A state pension is paid out of current NI contributions
and taxes. In exactly the same way as unemployment benefit or universal
credit.

--
*Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 05/02/2018 19:45, Bob Eager wrote:
On Mon, 05 Feb 2018 17:01:55 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fredxx brought next idea :
Perhaps state benefits should be withheld from you too.

That might be difficult, because I don't get any at all, not a penny
:-)

Thought you said you get a pension?

Pensions aren't 'benefits', although many try to claim they are.

They are paid into (even the state one) and then they are paid out.

Not enough has been paid in, and workers wages pay your pension.

It is a state benefit, even if you don't like it called one.

I think you will find all taxes are paid in, and then paid out again,
usually more than the monies paid in.

On 05/02/2018 11:15, Fredxx wrote:
On 05/02/2018 09:42, Brian Reay wrote:
On 04/02/2018 22:11, dennis@home wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-engl...bs-in-cornwall





Hardly a surprise.

We have a serious problem with people who expect to be carried by
others and/or paid more than their skills etc justify.

Do you work as much as those lazy people who are carried by those who do?

I've claimed unemployment benefit etc. Worked in summer hols at Uni. Got
a job when I left, worked until I retired- admittedly early but then
I'd work to do that.


If we stopped people refusing work offers, stopped benefits etc,

I agree, all state benefits should stop.

My issue is with wasters who refuse to work etc. and/or abuse the system.



stamped down on those who have one identity for benefits and another
for a 'side line', we could reduce welfare spending and force our
lazy scroungers to do the jobs migrants do. The latter would reduce
the attraction of the UK to migrants.

A national wage would be the obvious solution, to those who have lived
here for say 10 years. Then tax without any tax allowance.


Combine the NI and tax system- the current dual system is both pointless
and wasteful.

Tighten up some benefits on contributions/work record. Obviously some
need to be universal- some people can't ever work due to health /
disability and they shouldn't be penalised. The aim should be to ensure
that those who can work/contribute do.

'Importing' (so called) cheap labour in the form of migrants when we
have people claiming they can't find work is crazy.