On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 07:34:06 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 14:44:19 UTC, wrote:
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 6:05:57 PM UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 04:07:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 10:08:54 AM UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 09:26, Andy Burns wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Thanks Andy
It does seem a bit strange.
I can buy me a little PAT tester (probably 2nd-hand) - and do a formal
test, and stick a sticker on the lamp - but then (to be strictly
correct) you're into the calibration thing, which carries additional costs.
Bit of a slippery slope, perhaps?

The more important part of a PAT test is the viaual inspection. Either way, to carry one out and for it to have any weight, you would need to have a City & Guilds in PAT testing (at least that was the requirement about 10 - 15 years ago when I did it (one day course (not even a day if I recall correctly).

Cheers

Chris

On the first point, correct. This will pick nearly every fault up in
most circumstances.

As far as the second goes, Weight with who?

Can you justify that statement?

AB

I can't justify it with chapter & verse, but the day something one has PAT tested catches fire the next week, HSE or someone might well come looking for your qualification(s)


No they will not. As explained by our PAT tester after an item has been tested all it means is that item was safe when tested it means NOTHING else.

If something happens to the item it does NOT mean the PAT tester is at fault, neither the machinary or the person doing the tests.
Which is why PAT testing is pretty much a waste of time, unless it picks up something that has failed, it can NOT tell you that an electrical product won't go faulty in the future.


An insurance company will clutch at straws to try to avoid a payout.
Although not a guarantee, a PAT test is normally understood to involve
the application of a label carrying the next inspection date. The
inspection date is defined by the environment the item is used in, the
device type and previous failiures of that type of equipment.

I would be very very surprised if the PAT tester wasn't held
accountable. I dont think anyone is beyond prosecution by the HSE if
they have injured themselves or others through negligence, and handing
over a dangerous bit of kit seems fairly negligent to me.


AB

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 15:53:45 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 07:34:06 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 14:44:19 UTC, wrote:
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 6:05:57 PM UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 04:07:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 10:08:54 AM UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 09:26, Andy Burns wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Thanks Andy
It does seem a bit strange.
I can buy me a little PAT tester (probably 2nd-hand) - and do a formal
test, and stick a sticker on the lamp - but then (to be strictly
correct) you're into the calibration thing, which carries additional costs.
Bit of a slippery slope, perhaps?

The more important part of a PAT test is the viaual inspection. Either way, to carry one out and for it to have any weight, you would need to have a City & Guilds in PAT testing (at least that was the requirement about 10 - 15 years ago when I did it (one day course (not even a day if I recall correctly).

Cheers

Chris

On the first point, correct. This will pick nearly every fault up in
most circumstances.

As far as the second goes, Weight with who?

Can you justify that statement?

AB

I can't justify it with chapter & verse, but the day something one has PAT tested catches fire the next week, HSE or someone might well come looking for your qualification(s)


No they will not. As explained by our PAT tester after an item has been tested all it means is that item was safe when tested it means NOTHING else..

If something happens to the item it does NOT mean the PAT tester is at fault, neither the machinary or the person doing the tests.
Which is why PAT testing is pretty much a waste of time, unless it picks up something that has failed, it can NOT tell you that an electrical product won't go faulty in the future.


An insurance company will clutch at straws to try to avoid a payout.

So what's new.

Although not a guarantee, a PAT test is normally understood to involve
the application of a label carrying the next inspection date.

But doesn;t have to infact ours no longer use this method and our place is the only client where he is told to include a next test date.
He agreed with me that this isnlt required by law.

Teh only requirement is that the device must be safe.


The
inspection date is defined by the environment the item is used in,

can be for those in rough envioments the item has to be tested more often.


device type and previous failiures of that type of equipment.

I would be very very surprised if the PAT tester wasn't held
accountable.

They aren't, unless of course they have caused the problem.

Suppose you test a soldering iron, 10 mins later a student or anyone
rests the iron on it's mains lead exposing the inner live, earth, nuetral cables.
That is a PAT test FAIL.
So is it really your fault if that student or anyone comes along plugs it in and electrocutes themself is that your fault ?
What happens if it happenes a week later, or a month or a year.....
Whenn do you think it becomes the PAT testers fault ?




I dont think anyone is beyond prosecution by the HSE if
they have injured themselves or others through negligence, and handing
over a dangerous bit of kit seems fairly negligent to me.

It would be if you handed over kit that faile dit's PAT test.

Interestingly we are having our computerc scince building closed down this weekend because of some electrical installation fault.

On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:25:10 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 15:53:45 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 07:34:06 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 14:44:19 UTC, wrote:
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 6:05:57 PM UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 04:07:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 10:08:54 AM UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 09:26, Andy Burns wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Thanks Andy
It does seem a bit strange.
I can buy me a little PAT tester (probably 2nd-hand) - and do a formal
test, and stick a sticker on the lamp - but then (to be strictly
correct) you're into the calibration thing, which carries additional costs.
Bit of a slippery slope, perhaps?

The more important part of a PAT test is the viaual inspection. Either way, to carry one out and for it to have any weight, you would need to have a City & Guilds in PAT testing (at least that was the requirement about 10 - 15 years ago when I did it (one day course (not even a day if I recall correctly).

Cheers

Chris

On the first point, correct. This will pick nearly every fault up in
most circumstances.

As far as the second goes, Weight with who?

Can you justify that statement?

AB

I can't justify it with chapter & verse, but the day something one has PAT tested catches fire the next week, HSE or someone might well come looking for your qualification(s)


No they will not. As explained by our PAT tester after an item has been tested all it means is that item was safe when tested it means NOTHING else.

If something happens to the item it does NOT mean the PAT tester is at fault, neither the machinary or the person doing the tests.
Which is why PAT testing is pretty much a waste of time, unless it picks up something that has failed, it can NOT tell you that an electrical product won't go faulty in the future.


An insurance company will clutch at straws to try to avoid a payout.

So what's new.

Although not a guarantee, a PAT test is normally understood to involve
the application of a label carrying the next inspection date.

But doesn;t have to infact ours no longer use this method and our place is the only client where he is told to include a next test date.
He agreed with me that this isnlt required by law.

Teh only requirement is that the device must be safe.


Testing isn't a legal requirement.

Testing is a nice easy option fo an MD for instance, to demonstate
that he did everything that was reasonable to ensure the safety of his
workforce.

The
inspection date is defined by the environment the item is used in,

can be for those in rough envioments the item has to be tested more often.


device type and previous failiures of that type of equipment.

I would be very very surprised if the PAT tester wasn't held
accountable.

They aren't, unless of course they have caused the problem.

Suppose you test a soldering iron, 10 mins later a student or anyone
rests the iron on it's mains lead exposing the inner live, earth, nuetral cables.
That is a PAT test FAIL.
So is it really your fault if that student or anyone comes along plugs it in and electrocutes themself is that your fault ?
What happens if it happenes a week later, or a month or a year.....
Whenn do you think it becomes the PAT testers fault ?

I think if there is an accident, the HSE will step in and identify
possible causes. In all likelyhood they will come to the conclusion
that a different iron or more supervision would be needed.

But if the earth connection in the iron was not making contact and a
film of oxide on the separated ends was present, I would imagine that
there would be repercussions. If it were a fatality and the company
had previous form, then I would certinly hope that the directors were
penalised at least.

Students have families who want them home safe too :-)




I dont think anyone is beyond prosecution by the HSE if
they have injured themselves or others through negligence, and handing
over a dangerous bit of kit seems fairly negligent to me.

It would be if you handed over kit that faile dit's PAT test.

Well if it passed and no serious errors of judgement occurred, I think
he did everything reasonable :-)



Interestingly we are having our computerc scince building closed down this weekend because of some electrical installation fault.

Nice to find the problem before the incident :-)


AB

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 16:52:42 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:25:10 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 15:53:45 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 07:34:06 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 14:44:19 UTC, wrote:
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 6:05:57 PM UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 04:07:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 10:08:54 AM UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 09:26, Andy Burns wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Thanks Andy
It does seem a bit strange.
I can buy me a little PAT tester (probably 2nd-hand) - and do a formal
test, and stick a sticker on the lamp - but then (to be strictly
correct) you're into the calibration thing, which carries additional costs.
Bit of a slippery slope, perhaps?

The more important part of a PAT test is the viaual inspection. Either way, to carry one out and for it to have any weight, you would need to have a City & Guilds in PAT testing (at least that was the requirement about 10 - 15 years ago when I did it (one day course (not even a day if I recall correctly).

Cheers

Chris

On the first point, correct. This will pick nearly every fault up in
most circumstances.

As far as the second goes, Weight with who?

Can you justify that statement?

AB

I can't justify it with chapter & verse, but the day something one has PAT tested catches fire the next week, HSE or someone might well come looking for your qualification(s)


No they will not. As explained by our PAT tester after an item has been tested all it means is that item was safe when tested it means NOTHING else.

If something happens to the item it does NOT mean the PAT tester is at fault, neither the machinary or the person doing the tests.
Which is why PAT testing is pretty much a waste of time, unless it picks up something that has failed, it can NOT tell you that an electrical product won't go faulty in the future.


An insurance company will clutch at straws to try to avoid a payout.

So what's new.

Although not a guarantee, a PAT test is normally understood to involve
the application of a label carrying the next inspection date.

But doesn;t have to infact ours no longer use this method and our place is the only client where he is told to include a next test date.
He agreed with me that this isnlt required by law.

Teh only requirement is that the device must be safe.


Testing isn't a legal requirement.

Yes I know.


Testing is a nice easy option fo an MD for instance, to demonstate
that he did everything that was reasonable to ensure the safety of his
workforce.

or any admin that haven't a clue about what they are responsible for.


The
inspection date is defined by the environment the item is used in,

can be for those in rough envioments the item has to be tested more often.

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 15:22:50 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

I can't justify it with chapter & verse, but the day something one has
PAT tested catches fire the next week, HSE or someone might well come
looking for your qualification(s) and evidence of (public liability??)
insurance (which dependiing on the size of the fire, you might need to
claim on (but perhaps only if you were held to be negligent?)

They would have to prove the item was faulty *at the time of the test*
which might prove tricky if destroyed by fire.

for some value of 'prove' as defined by a court, which be nearer a guess than real proof. CYA.


NT

On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 03:04:00 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 16:52:42 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:25:10 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 15:53:45 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 07:34:06 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 14:44:19 UTC, wrote:
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 6:05:57 PM UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 04:07:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 10:08:54 AM UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 09:26, Andy Burns wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Thanks Andy
It does seem a bit strange.
I can buy me a little PAT tester (probably 2nd-hand) - and do a formal
test, and stick a sticker on the lamp - but then (to be strictly
correct) you're into the calibration thing, which carries additional costs.
Bit of a slippery slope, perhaps?

The more important part of a PAT test is the viaual inspection. Either way, to carry one out and for it to have any weight, you would need to have a City & Guilds in PAT testing (at least that was the requirement about 10 - 15 years ago when I did it (one day course (not even a day if I recall correctly).

Cheers

Chris

On the first point, correct. This will pick nearly every fault up in
most circumstances.

As far as the second goes, Weight with who?

Can you justify that statement?

AB

I can't justify it with chapter & verse, but the day something one has PAT tested catches fire the next week, HSE or someone might well come looking for your qualification(s)


No they will not. As explained by our PAT tester after an item has been tested all it means is that item was safe when tested it means NOTHING else.

If something happens to the item it does NOT mean the PAT tester is at fault, neither the machinary or the person doing the tests.
Which is why PAT testing is pretty much a waste of time, unless it picks up something that has failed, it can NOT tell you that an electrical product won't go faulty in the future.


An insurance company will clutch at straws to try to avoid a payout.

So what's new.

Although not a guarantee, a PAT test is normally understood to involve
the application of a label carrying the next inspection date.

But doesn;t have to infact ours no longer use this method and our place is the only client where he is told to include a next test date.
He agreed with me that this isnlt required by law.

Teh only requirement is that the device must be safe.


Testing isn't a legal requirement.

Yes I know.


Testing is a nice easy option fo an MD for instance, to demonstate
that he did everything that was reasonable to ensure the safety of his
workforce.

or any admin that haven't a clue about what they are responsible for.


The
inspection date is defined by the environment the item is used in,

can be for those in rough envioments the item has to be tested more often.


device type and previous failiures of that type of equipment.

I would be very very surprised if the PAT tester wasn't held
accountable.

They aren't, unless of course they have caused the problem.

Suppose you test a soldering iron, 10 mins later a student or anyone
rests the iron on it's mains lead exposing the inner live, earth, nuetral cables.
That is a PAT test FAIL.
So is it really your fault if that student or anyone comes along plugs it in and electrocutes themself is that your fault ?
What happens if it happenes a week later, or a month or a year.....
Whenn do you think it becomes the PAT testers fault ?

I think if there is an accident, the HSE will step in and identify
possible causes. In all likelyhood they will come to the conclusion
that a different iron or more supervision would be needed.

I doubt that as it would be up the the H&S in the instituition.

Electrocution is a notifiable accident.



But if the earth connection in the iron was not making contact and a
film of oxide on the separated ends was present, I would imagine that
there would be repercussions. If it were a fatality and the company
had previous form, then I would certinly hope that the directors were
penalised at least.

Nothing to do with PAT testers though.

Everything of relevance would be under scruitiny, if the company had a
testing regime, the practice would be evaluated but still wouldn't
guarantee that the company wouldn't be penalised. If the company
didn't have a testing regime it would be up to them to say what they
did to prevent the death/ injury.


Students have families who want them home safe too :-)

I want the students to leave the lab as quickly and safely as possible.



I dont think anyone is beyond prosecution by the HSE if
they have injured themselves or others through negligence, and handing
over a dangerous bit of kit seems fairly negligent to me.

It would be if you handed over kit that failed it's PAT test.

Well if it passed and no serious errors of judgement occurred, I think
he did everything reasonable :-)
Just because something is passed it doesnlt make it safe by default, the user still has to know how to use it.
That is why I produced my H&S poster regarding soildering irons.


That's a totally different ball game, although the same things apply.
I'm not sure but are grinding wheels and the like inspected regularly?
Lifting tackle is.

Interestingly we are having our computerc scince building closed down this weekend because of some electrical installation fault.

Nice to find the problem before the incident :-)

Buildings been there about 15+ years.

As I said, if it's before the incident it's good.

We had a similar problem, wiring not carried out to spec around the
same time period too, it was found during a department refit.

I don't know the details, it was put right in a few days and
everything went quiet. The person overseeing the original contractors
is still in the company and part of the management team :-)

AB

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 14:33:15 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 03:04:00 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 16:52:42 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:25:10 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 15:53:45 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 07:34:06 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 14:44:19 UTC, wrote:
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 6:05:57 PM UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 04:07:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 10:08:54 AM UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 09:26, Andy Burns wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Thanks Andy
It does seem a bit strange.
I can buy me a little PAT tester (probably 2nd-hand) - and do a formal
test, and stick a sticker on the lamp - but then (to be strictly
correct) you're into the calibration thing, which carries additional costs.
Bit of a slippery slope, perhaps?

The more important part of a PAT test is the viaual inspection. Either way, to carry one out and for it to have any weight, you would need to have a City & Guilds in PAT testing (at least that was the requirement about 10 - 15 years ago when I did it (one day course (not even a day if I recall correctly).

Cheers

Chris

On the first point, correct. This will pick nearly every fault up in
most circumstances.

As far as the second goes, Weight with who?

Can you justify that statement?

AB

I can't justify it with chapter & verse, but the day something one has PAT tested catches fire the next week, HSE or someone might well come looking for your qualification(s)


No they will not. As explained by our PAT tester after an item has been tested all it means is that item was safe when tested it means NOTHING else.

If something happens to the item it does NOT mean the PAT tester is at fault, neither the machinary or the person doing the tests.
Which is why PAT testing is pretty much a waste of time, unless it picks up something that has failed, it can NOT tell you that an electrical product won't go faulty in the future.


An insurance company will clutch at straws to try to avoid a payout..

So what's new.

Although not a guarantee, a PAT test is normally understood to involve
the application of a label carrying the next inspection date.

But doesn;t have to infact ours no longer use this method and our place is the only client where he is told to include a next test date.
He agreed with me that this isnlt required by law.

Teh only requirement is that the device must be safe.


Testing isn't a legal requirement.

Yes I know.


Testing is a nice easy option fo an MD for instance, to demonstate
that he did everything that was reasonable to ensure the safety of his
workforce.

or any admin that haven't a clue about what they are responsible for.


The
inspection date is defined by the environment the item is used in,

can be for those in rough envioments the item has to be tested more often.


device type and previous failiures of that type of equipment.

I would be very very surprised if the PAT tester wasn't held
accountable.

They aren't, unless of course they have caused the problem.

Suppose you test a soldering iron, 10 mins later a student or anyone
rests the iron on it's mains lead exposing the inner live, earth, nuetral cables.
That is a PAT test FAIL.
So is it really your fault if that student or anyone comes along plugs it in and electrocutes themself is that your fault ?
What happens if it happenes a week later, or a month or a year.....
Whenn do you think it becomes the PAT testers fault ?

I think if there is an accident, the HSE will step in and identify
possible causes. In all likelyhood they will come to the conclusion
that a different iron or more supervision would be needed.

I doubt that as it would be up the the H&S in the instituition.

Electrocution is a notifiable accident.

Lots of things are, here any cut longer than 1cm HAS to be recorded.
But not everything has to be reported to the HSE, maybe a death has to be.




But if the earth connection in the iron was not making contact and a
film of oxide on the separated ends was present, I would imagine that
there would be repercussions. If it were a fatality and the company
had previous form, then I would certinly hope that the directors were
penalised at least.

Nothing to do with PAT testers though.

Everything of relevance would be under scruitiny, if the company had a
testing regime, the practice would be evaluated but still wouldn't
guarantee that the company wouldn't be penalised. If the company
didn't have a testing regime it would be up to them to say what they
did to prevent the death/ injury.

They'd have to do that even if they had PAT tested the device.

remmeber new stuff doesn't have to be PAT tested.



Students have families who want them home safe too :-)

I want the students to leave the lab as quickly and safely as possible.

I dont think anyone is beyond prosecution by the HSE if
they have injured themselves or others through negligence, and handing
over a dangerous bit of kit seems fairly negligent to me.

It would be if you handed over kit that failed it's PAT test.

Well if it passed and no serious errors of judgement occurred, I think
he did everything reasonable :-)
Just because something is passed it doesnlt make it safe by default, the user still has to know how to use it.
That is why I produced my H&S poster regarding soildering irons.


That's a totally different ball game, although the same things apply.
I'm not sure but are grinding wheels and the like inspected regularly?

I assume so, but I've no idea, not having one in the lab it doesn't really concern me.

Lifting tackle is.

Ours used to be too, every 10 years I think, and that's even though we didn't use it.



Interestingly we are having our computerc scince building closed down this weekend because of some electrical installation fault.

Nice to find the problem before the incident :-)

Buildings been there about 15+ years.

As I said, if it's before the incident it's good.

Yes but why hasn;t it been noticed before is what I'd like to know.

The line is :-
"The present configuration of the board is not only contravening health and safety but is a serious fire risk."

But Ive no idea how long it has been like this.


We had a similar problem, wiring not carried out to spec around the
same time period too, it was found during a department refit.

I think the same has happened here but can never be sure.


I don't know the details, it was put right in a few days and
everything went quiet. The person overseeing the original contractors
is still in the company and part of the management team :-)

That makes sense probbaly got promoted as soon as the problem was noticed, same sort of things happen here. if you have someone that can't do the job then promote them because it's easier than sacking them.

On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 07:16:29 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 14:33:15 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 03:04:00 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 16:52:42 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:25:10 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 15:53:45 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 07:34:06 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 14:44:19 UTC, wrote:
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 6:05:57 PM UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 04:07:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 10:08:54 AM UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 09:26, Andy Burns wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Thanks Andy
It does seem a bit strange.
I can buy me a little PAT tester (probably 2nd-hand) - and do a formal
test, and stick a sticker on the lamp - but then (to be strictly
correct) you're into the calibration thing, which carries additional costs.
Bit of a slippery slope, perhaps?

The more important part of a PAT test is the viaual inspection. Either way, to carry one out and for it to have any weight, you would need to have a City & Guilds in PAT testing (at least that was the requirement about 10 - 15 years ago when I did it (one day course (not even a day if I recall correctly).

Cheers

Chris

On the first point, correct. This will pick nearly every fault up in
most circumstances.

As far as the second goes, Weight with who?

Can you justify that statement?

AB

I can't justify it with chapter & verse, but the day something one has PAT tested catches fire the next week, HSE or someone might well come looking for your qualification(s)


No they will not. As explained by our PAT tester after an item has been tested all it means is that item was safe when tested it means NOTHING else.

If something happens to the item it does NOT mean the PAT tester is at fault, neither the machinary or the person doing the tests.
Which is why PAT testing is pretty much a waste of time, unless it picks up something that has failed, it can NOT tell you that an electrical product won't go faulty in the future.


An insurance company will clutch at straws to try to avoid a payout.

So what's new.

Although not a guarantee, a PAT test is normally understood to involve
the application of a label carrying the next inspection date.

But doesn;t have to infact ours no longer use this method and our place is the only client where he is told to include a next test date.
He agreed with me that this isnlt required by law.

Teh only requirement is that the device must be safe.


Testing isn't a legal requirement.

Yes I know.


Testing is a nice easy option fo an MD for instance, to demonstate
that he did everything that was reasonable to ensure the safety of his
workforce.

or any admin that haven't a clue about what they are responsible for.


The
inspection date is defined by the environment the item is used in,

can be for those in rough envioments the item has to be tested more often.


device type and previous failiures of that type of equipment.

I would be very very surprised if the PAT tester wasn't held
accountable.

They aren't, unless of course they have caused the problem.

Suppose you test a soldering iron, 10 mins later a student or anyone
rests the iron on it's mains lead exposing the inner live, earth, nuetral cables.
That is a PAT test FAIL.
So is it really your fault if that student or anyone comes along plugs it in and electrocutes themself is that your fault ?
What happens if it happenes a week later, or a month or a year.....
Whenn do you think it becomes the PAT testers fault ?

I think if there is an accident, the HSE will step in and identify
possible causes. In all likelyhood they will come to the conclusion
that a different iron or more supervision would be needed.

I doubt that as it would be up the the H&S in the instituition.

Electrocution is a notifiable accident.

Lots of things are, here any cut longer than 1cm HAS to be recorded.
But not everything has to be reported to the HSE, maybe a death has to be.

Apologies I was wrong. It no longer is listed as reportable. The fact
that the victims insn't operational anymore is though :-)




But if the earth connection in the iron was not making contact and a
film of oxide on the separated ends was present, I would imagine that
there would be repercussions. If it were a fatality and the company
had previous form, then I would certinly hope that the directors were
penalised at least.

Nothing to do with PAT testers though.

Everything of relevance would be under scruitiny, if the company had a
testing regime, the practice would be evaluated but still wouldn't
guarantee that the company wouldn't be penalised. If the company
didn't have a testing regime it would be up to them to say what they
did to prevent the death/ injury.

They'd have to do that even if they had PAT tested the device.

remmeber new stuff doesn't have to be PAT tested.

Neither does old stuff. In the event of a groundworker incident
involving his brand spanking new drill though, there may be questions
as to why it wasn't 110V.

A testing regime should spot this.



Students have families who want them home safe too :-)

I want the students to leave the lab as quickly and safely as possible.

I dont think anyone is beyond prosecution by the HSE if
they have injured themselves or others through negligence, and handing
over a dangerous bit of kit seems fairly negligent to me.

It would be if you handed over kit that failed it's PAT test.

Well if it passed and no serious errors of judgement occurred, I think
he did everything reasonable :-)
Just because something is passed it doesnlt make it safe by default, the user still has to know how to use it.
That is why I produced my H&S poster regarding soildering irons.


That's a totally different ball game, although the same things apply.
I'm not sure but are grinding wheels and the like inspected regularly?

I assume so, but I've no idea, not having one in the lab it doesn't really concern me.

Lifting tackle is.

Ours used to be too, every 10 years I think, and that's even though we didn't use it.



Interestingly we are having our computerc scince building closed down this weekend because of some electrical installation fault.

Nice to find the problem before the incident :-)

Buildings been there about 15+ years.

As I said, if it's before the incident it's good.

Yes but why hasn;t it been noticed before is what I'd like to know.

The line is :-
"The present configuration of the board is not only contravening health and safety but is a serious fire risk."

But Ive no idea how long it has been like this.


We had a similar problem, wiring not carried out to spec around the
same time period too, it was found during a department refit.

I think the same has happened here but can never be sure.


I don't know the details, it was put right in a few days and
everything went quiet. The person overseeing the original contractors
is still in the company and part of the management team :-)

That makes sense probbaly got promoted as soon as the problem was noticed, same sort of things happen here. if you have someone that can't do the job then promote them because it's easier than sacking them.


Sacking for incompetence is only applied to people like shelf stackers
and burger flippers. The insecurity of the incompetents job is
inversley proportional to status.

Theres a chap in Washington who is living proof!

AB

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 16:01:32 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 07:16:29 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 14:33:15 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 03:04:00 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 16:52:42 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:25:10 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 15:53:45 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 07:34:06 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 14:44:19 UTC, wrote:
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 6:05:57 PM UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 04:07:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 10:08:54 AM UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 09:26, Andy Burns wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Thanks Andy
It does seem a bit strange.
I can buy me a little PAT tester (probably 2nd-hand) - and do a formal
test, and stick a sticker on the lamp - but then (to be strictly
correct) you're into the calibration thing, which carries additional costs.
Bit of a slippery slope, perhaps?

The more important part of a PAT test is the viaual inspection. Either way, to carry one out and for it to have any weight, you would need to have a City & Guilds in PAT testing (at least that was the requirement about 10 - 15 years ago when I did it (one day course (not even a day if I recall correctly).

Cheers

Chris

On the first point, correct. This will pick nearly every fault up in
most circumstances.

As far as the second goes, Weight with who?

Can you justify that statement?

AB

I can't justify it with chapter & verse, but the day something one has PAT tested catches fire the next week, HSE or someone might well come looking for your qualification(s)


No they will not. As explained by our PAT tester after an item has been tested all it means is that item was safe when tested it means NOTHING else.

If something happens to the item it does NOT mean the PAT tester is at fault, neither the machinary or the person doing the tests.
Which is why PAT testing is pretty much a waste of time, unless it picks up something that has failed, it can NOT tell you that an electrical product won't go faulty in the future.


An insurance company will clutch at straws to try to avoid a payout.

So what's new.

Although not a guarantee, a PAT test is normally understood to involve
the application of a label carrying the next inspection date.

But doesn;t have to infact ours no longer use this method and our place is the only client where he is told to include a next test date.
He agreed with me that this isnlt required by law.

Teh only requirement is that the device must be safe.


Testing isn't a legal requirement.

Yes I know.


Testing is a nice easy option fo an MD for instance, to demonstate
that he did everything that was reasonable to ensure the safety of his
workforce.

or any admin that haven't a clue about what they are responsible for.


The
inspection date is defined by the environment the item is used in,

can be for those in rough envioments the item has to be tested more often.


device type and previous failiures of that type of equipment.

I would be very very surprised if the PAT tester wasn't held
accountable.

They aren't, unless of course they have caused the problem.

Suppose you test a soldering iron, 10 mins later a student or anyone
rests the iron on it's mains lead exposing the inner live, earth, nuetral cables.
That is a PAT test FAIL.
So is it really your fault if that student or anyone comes along plugs it in and electrocutes themself is that your fault ?
What happens if it happenes a week later, or a month or a year......
Whenn do you think it becomes the PAT testers fault ?

I think if there is an accident, the HSE will step in and identify
possible causes. In all likelyhood they will come to the conclusion
that a different iron or more supervision would be needed.

I doubt that as it would be up the the H&S in the instituition.

Electrocution is a notifiable accident.

Lots of things are, here any cut longer than 1cm HAS to be recorded.
But not everything has to be reported to the HSE, maybe a death has to be.

Apologies I was wrong. It no longer is listed as reportable. The fact
that the victims insn't operational anymore is though :-)

Some of them are, but they don't always know how damged they have become, an example is James Wilkinson Sword on here, he's imune form electric shocks and the cold or so he claims.




But if the earth connection in the iron was not making contact and a
film of oxide on the separated ends was present, I would imagine that
there would be repercussions. If it were a fatality and the company
had previous form, then I would certinly hope that the directors were
penalised at least.

Nothing to do with PAT testers though.

Everything of relevance would be under scruitiny, if the company had a
testing regime, the practice would be evaluated but still wouldn't
guarantee that the company wouldn't be penalised. If the company
didn't have a testing regime it would be up to them to say what they
did to prevent the death/ injury.

They'd have to do that even if they had PAT tested the device.

remmeber new stuff doesn't have to be PAT tested.

Neither does old stuff.

But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


In the event of a groundworker incident
involving his brand spanking new drill though, there may be questions
as to why it wasn't 110V.

It doesn't have to be 110V. And if it is new it is assumed to be safe to use.


A testing regime should spot this.

Yes it should depending on what was tested for. But it still wonlt stop the product becoming faulty the next day, and a sticker saying next test date will NOT change that, which is why I've said we shouldn't be using such things as next date.

Students have families who want them home safe too :-)

I want the students to leave the lab as quickly and safely as possible.

I dont think anyone is beyond prosecution by the HSE if
they have injured themselves or others through negligence, and handing
over a dangerous bit of kit seems fairly negligent to me.

It would be if you handed over kit that failed it's PAT test.

Well if it passed and no serious errors of judgement occurred, I think
he did everything reasonable :-)
Just because something is passed it doesnlt make it safe by default, the user still has to know how to use it.
That is why I produced my H&S poster regarding soildering irons.


That's a totally different ball game, although the same things apply.
I'm not sure but are grinding wheels and the like inspected regularly?

I assume so, but I've no idea, not having one in the lab it doesn't really concern me.

Lifting tackle is.

Ours used to be too, every 10 years I think, and that's even though we didn't use it.



Interestingly we are having our computerc scince building closed down this weekend because of some electrical installation fault.

Nice to find the problem before the incident :-)

Buildings been there about 15+ years.

As I said, if it's before the incident it's good.

Yes but why hasn;t it been noticed before is what I'd like to know.

The line is :-
"The present configuration of the board is not only contravening health and safety but is a serious fire risk."

But Ive no idea how long it has been like this.


We had a similar problem, wiring not carried out to spec around the
same time period too, it was found during a department refit.

I think the same has happened here but can never be sure.


I don't know the details, it was put right in a few days and
everything went quiet. The person overseeing the original contractors
is still in the company and part of the management team :-)

That makes sense probbaly got promoted as soon as the problem was noticed, same sort of things happen here. if you have someone that can't do the job then promote them because it's easier than sacking them.


Sacking for incompetence is only applied to people like shelf stackers
and burger flippers. The insecurity of the incompetents job is
inversley proportional to status.

Yes something like that. :-()


Theres a chap in Washington who is living proof!

AB

On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:26:38 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 16:01:32 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 07:16:29 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 14:33:15 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 03:04:00 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 16:52:42 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:25:10 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 15:53:45 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 07:34:06 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 6 February 2018 14:44:19 UTC, wrote:
On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 6:05:57 PM UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 04:07:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 10:08:54 AM UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 09:26, Andy Burns wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Thanks Andy
It does seem a bit strange.
I can buy me a little PAT tester (probably 2nd-hand) - and do a formal
test, and stick a sticker on the lamp - but then (to be strictly
correct) you're into the calibration thing, which carries additional costs.
Bit of a slippery slope, perhaps?

The more important part of a PAT test is the viaual inspection. Either way, to carry one out and for it to have any weight, you would need to have a City & Guilds in PAT testing (at least that was the requirement about 10 - 15 years ago when I did it (one day course (not even a day if I recall correctly).

Cheers

Chris

On the first point, correct. This will pick nearly every fault up in
most circumstances.

As far as the second goes, Weight with who?

Can you justify that statement?

AB

I can't justify it with chapter & verse, but the day something one has PAT tested catches fire the next week, HSE or someone might well come looking for your qualification(s)


No they will not. As explained by our PAT tester after an item has been tested all it means is that item was safe when tested it means NOTHING else.

If something happens to the item it does NOT mean the PAT tester is at fault, neither the machinary or the person doing the tests.
Which is why PAT testing is pretty much a waste of time, unless it picks up something that has failed, it can NOT tell you that an electrical product won't go faulty in the future.


An insurance company will clutch at straws to try to avoid a payout.

So what's new.

Although not a guarantee, a PAT test is normally understood to involve
the application of a label carrying the next inspection date.

But doesn;t have to infact ours no longer use this method and our place is the only client where he is told to include a next test date.
He agreed with me that this isnlt required by law.

Teh only requirement is that the device must be safe.


Testing isn't a legal requirement.

Yes I know.


Testing is a nice easy option fo an MD for instance, to demonstate
that he did everything that was reasonable to ensure the safety of his
workforce.

or any admin that haven't a clue about what they are responsible for.


The
inspection date is defined by the environment the item is used in,

can be for those in rough envioments the item has to be tested more often.


device type and previous failiures of that type of equipment.

I would be very very surprised if the PAT tester wasn't held
accountable.

They aren't, unless of course they have caused the problem.

Suppose you test a soldering iron, 10 mins later a student or anyone
rests the iron on it's mains lead exposing the inner live, earth, nuetral cables.
That is a PAT test FAIL.
So is it really your fault if that student or anyone comes along plugs it in and electrocutes themself is that your fault ?
What happens if it happenes a week later, or a month or a year.....
Whenn do you think it becomes the PAT testers fault ?

I think if there is an accident, the HSE will step in and identify
possible causes. In all likelyhood they will come to the conclusion
that a different iron or more supervision would be needed.

I doubt that as it would be up the the H&S in the instituition.

Electrocution is a notifiable accident.

Lots of things are, here any cut longer than 1cm HAS to be recorded.
But not everything has to be reported to the HSE, maybe a death has to be.

Apologies I was wrong. It no longer is listed as reportable. The fact
that the victims insn't operational anymore is though :-)

Some of them are, but they don't always know how damged they have become, an example is James Wilkinson Sword on here, he's imune form electric shocks and the cold or so he claims.




But if the earth connection in the iron was not making contact and a
film of oxide on the separated ends was present, I would imagine that
there would be repercussions. If it were a fatality and the company
had previous form, then I would certinly hope that the directors were
penalised at least.

Nothing to do with PAT testers though.

Everything of relevance would be under scruitiny, if the company had a
testing regime, the practice would be evaluated but still wouldn't
guarantee that the company wouldn't be penalised. If the company
didn't have a testing regime it would be up to them to say what they
did to prevent the death/ injury.

They'd have to do that even if they had PAT tested the device.

remmeber new stuff doesn't have to be PAT tested.

Neither does old stuff.

But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

:-)

Users must inspect items themselves. They may not have an Electrical
PHD or even a brain cell to spare after the basic life functional
needs are met, but they have a responsibility to themselves and
others.

In the event of a groundworker incident
involving his brand spanking new drill though, there may be questions
as to why it wasn't 110V.

It doesn't have to be 110V. And if it is new it is assumed to be safe to use.

No, but a double insulated appliance, while excellent in the dry
workshop can be lethal used at the top of a ladder in wet conditions.


A testing regime should spot this.

Yes it should depending on what was tested for. But it still wonlt stop the product becoming faulty the next day, and a sticker saying next test date will NOT change that, which is why I've said we shouldn't be using such things as next date.

Students have families who want them home safe too :-)

I want the students to leave the lab as quickly and safely as possible.

I dont think anyone is beyond prosecution by the HSE if
they have injured themselves or others through negligence, and handing
over a dangerous bit of kit seems fairly negligent to me.

It would be if you handed over kit that failed it's PAT test.

Well if it passed and no serious errors of judgement occurred, I think
he did everything reasonable :-)
Just because something is passed it doesnlt make it safe by default, the user still has to know how to use it.
That is why I produced my H&S poster regarding soildering irons.


That's a totally different ball game, although the same things apply.
I'm not sure but are grinding wheels and the like inspected regularly?

I assume so, but I've no idea, not having one in the lab it doesn't really concern me.

Lifting tackle is.

Ours used to be too, every 10 years I think, and that's even though we didn't use it.



Interestingly we are having our computerc scince building closed down this weekend because of some electrical installation fault.

Nice to find the problem before the incident :-)

Buildings been there about 15+ years.

As I said, if it's before the incident it's good.

Yes but why hasn;t it been noticed before is what I'd like to know.

The line is :-
"The present configuration of the board is not only contravening health and safety but is a serious fire risk."

But Ive no idea how long it has been like this.


We had a similar problem, wiring not carried out to spec around the
same time period too, it was found during a department refit.

I think the same has happened here but can never be sure.


I don't know the details, it was put right in a few days and
everything went quiet. The person overseeing the original contractors
is still in the company and part of the management team :-)

That makes sense probbaly got promoted as soon as the problem was noticed, same sort of things happen here. if you have someone that can't do the job then promote them because it's easier than sacking them.


Sacking for incompetence is only applied to people like shelf stackers
and burger flippers. The insecurity of the incompetents job is
inversley proportional to status.

Yes something like that. :-()


Theres a chap in Washington who is living proof!

AB

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 16:42:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:26:38 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

Argos has to sell stuff that is electrically safe amonst other things.
If something is unsafe they have to stop selling it.



:-)

Users must inspect items themselves.

They donl't have to by law.

They may not have an Electrical
PHD or even a brain cell to spare after the basic life functional
needs are met, but they have a responsibility to themselves and
others.

Only to a certain level and then it's only knowingly doing something wrong would be a problem.


In the event of a groundworker incident
involving his brand spanking new drill though, there may be questions
as to why it wasn't 110V.

It doesn't have to be 110V. And if it is new it is assumed to be safe to use.

No, but a double insulated appliance, while excellent in the dry
workshop can be lethal used at the top of a ladder in wet conditions.

Could do.

On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:06:45 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 16:42:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:26:38 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

Argos has to sell stuff that is electrically safe amonst other things.
If something is unsafe they have to stop selling it.

They are not an authourity.

They do not know what they are selling when it comes to technical/
legal requirements. Or at least those I have interacted with don't.






:-)

Users must inspect items themselves.

They donl't have to by law.

No, but try getting a payout from an insurance company if the plug top
was off.

And if you passed the faulty appliance on....................

They may not have an Electrical
PHD or even a brain cell to spare after the basic life functional
needs are met, but they have a responsibility to themselves and
others.

Only to a certain level and then it's only knowingly doing something wrong would be a problem.

Knowingly? The big let out. If knowingly was an excuse for not
following legal or safety practices, we may as well rip the rule books
up.


In the event of a groundworker incident
involving his brand spanking new drill though, there may be questions
as to why it wasn't 110V.

It doesn't have to be 110V. And if it is new it is assumed to be safe to use.

No, but a double insulated appliance, while excellent in the dry
workshop can be lethal used at the top of a ladder in wet conditions.

Could do.

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 22:23:54 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:06:45 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 16:42:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:26:38 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

Argos has to sell stuff that is electrically safe amonst other things.
If something is unsafe they have to stop selling it.

They are not an authourity.

They don't have to be, they just have to obay consumer law regarding selling stuff to the general public.

They do not know what they are selling when it comes to technical/
legal requirements.

'They' do.

Or at least those I have interacted with don't.

I doubt you've ever spoken to argos, you might have spoken to an assistant at the store who have to follow the rules argos set out in their employment contract.


Users must inspect items themselves.

They donl't have to by law.

No, but try getting a payout from an insurance company if the plug top
was off.

Why should they get an insurance pay off just because the plug top is off ?


And if you passed the faulty appliance on....................

Yes depending on who you are and the situation would be looked into.


They may not have an Electrical
PHD or even a brain cell to spare after the basic life functional
needs are met, but they have a responsibility to themselves and
others.

Only to a certain level and then it's only knowingly doing something wrong would be a problem.

Knowingly? The big let out. If knowingly was an excuse for not
following legal or safety practices, we may as well rip the rule books
up.

No the rule books will account for that. Try sticking your penis in an angle grinder and then claim it's not safe what pay off would you expect ?

On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 03:51:58 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 22:23:54 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:06:45 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 16:42:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:26:38 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

Argos has to sell stuff that is electrically safe amonst other things.
If something is unsafe they have to stop selling it.

They are not an authourity.

They don't have to be, they just have to obay consumer law regarding selling stuff to the general public.

They do not know what they are selling when it comes to technical/
legal requirements.

'They' do.

Or at least those I have interacted with don't.

I doubt you've ever spoken to argos, you might have spoken to an assistant at the store who have to follow the rules argos set out in their employment contract.

No, I followed their website links and went to the head office, I am
not stupid, I am fully aware that anyone on the end of a phone line or
working behind the counter is not likely to have a clue about the
product range.

Should I have felt strongly about the problem or if I thought the
public were at serious risk, then I would have persued the problem all
the way up.


I think you expect too much of a retailer. Professionally I have had
to inform companies that their products were not up to spec and these
ranged from switches to EX rated barrier assemblies through to
calibration data. All these were supplied by Internationally known
manufacturers who were specialists in their field.

All the points raised were serious quality or safety issues.

If errors from these people can hit the market, then I would not have
too much faith in Argos acting as a "gateway" for goods.




Users must inspect items themselves.

They donl't have to by law.

No, but try getting a payout from an insurance company if the plug top
was off.

Why should they get an insurance pay off just because the plug top is off ?

They wont. Thats why inspection is needed.


And if you passed the faulty appliance on....................

Yes depending on who you are and the situation would be looked into.


They may not have an Electrical
PHD or even a brain cell to spare after the basic life functional
needs are met, but they have a responsibility to themselves and
others.

Only to a certain level and then it's only knowingly doing something wrong would be a problem.

Knowingly? The big let out. If knowingly was an excuse for not
following legal or safety practices, we may as well rip the rule books
up.

No the rule books will account for that. Try sticking your penis in an angle grinder and then claim it's not safe what pay off would you expect ?


If there was no guard fitted to the angle grinder, or an employer
issued it to someone untrained in it's use there could well be
repercussions. The employer would without question be liable.

Likewise supplying a grinder to someone with mental problems would not
be a good idea.

It certainly isn't taking reasonable care.

If said penis was chopped off as opposed to eroded slightly, it would
be recordable.

AB

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 13:32:11 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 03:51:58 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 22:23:54 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:06:45 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 16:42:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:26:38 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

Argos has to sell stuff that is electrically safe amonst other things..
If something is unsafe they have to stop selling it.

They are not an authourity.

They don't have to be, they just have to obay consumer law regarding selling stuff to the general public.

They do not know what they are selling when it comes to technical/
legal requirements.

'They' do.

Or at least those I have interacted with don't.

I doubt you've ever spoken to argos, you might have spoken to an assistant at the store who have to follow the rules argos set out in their employment contract.

No, I followed their website links and went to the head office, I am
not stupid,

Ah ! so you were just wearing an excellent disguise.

I am fully aware that anyone on the end of a phone line or
working behind the counter is not likely to have a clue about the
product range.

So you're now refering to the CEO of argos that yuo spoke to ?


Should I have felt strongly about the problem or if I thought the
public were at serious risk, then I would have persued the problem all
the way up.

Yes and that could be painful ;-)
I didn't know argos sold anal probes.



I think you expect too much of a retailer.

I don't you do.


Professionally I have had
to inform companies that their products were not up to spec and these
ranged from switches to EX rated barrier assemblies through to
calibration data. All these were supplied by Internationally known
manufacturers who were specialists in their field.

Have you worked with grenfell tower ?


All the points raised were serious quality or safety issues.

So.
I thought you were talkming about argos.


If errors from these people can hit the market, then I would not have
too much faith in Argos acting as a "gateway" for goods.

I would until someone proved differnt.


Users must inspect items themselves.

They donl't have to by law.

No, but try getting a payout from an insurance company if the plug top
was off.

Why should they get an insurance pay off just because the plug top is off ?

They wont. Thats why inspection is needed.

That's part of quality contol and that is NOT part of the counter staffs job in argos.



No the rule books will account for that. Try sticking your penis in an angle grinder and then claim it's not safe what pay off would you expect ?


If there was no guard fitted to the angle grinder, or an employer
issued it to someone untrained in it's use there could well be
repercussions. The employer would without question be liable.

could be, but you're trying to say it's the angle grinders manufactiuers fault.


Likewise supplying a grinder to someone with mental problems would not
be a good idea.

But that wouldn;t be argos fault either. Those with mental problems are allowed to buy angle grinders from argos there;s no law against it, now if that person was say under 16 and argos were suppling knives to school children (as with glue and fag sales) yes that could cause them a problem.


It certainly isn't taking reasonable care.

dedending on what you call resonable.



If said penis was chopped off as opposed to eroded slightly, it would
be recordable.

anything can be recorded.


In fact a recent concren I had was a friend posted a video to yuotube and he did say contains flashing imagery or words to that affect.
Yes it's pretty bad towards the end (IMO) I find it difficult to watch, I'm not sure what would happen if someone suffred a fit after viewing.

On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 07:08:27 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 13:32:11 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 03:51:58 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 22:23:54 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:06:45 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 16:42:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:26:38 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

Argos has to sell stuff that is electrically safe amonst other things.
If something is unsafe they have to stop selling it.

They are not an authourity.

They don't have to be, they just have to obay consumer law regarding selling stuff to the general public.

They do not know what they are selling when it comes to technical/
legal requirements.

'They' do.

Or at least those I have interacted with don't.

I doubt you've ever spoken to argos, you might have spoken to an assistant at the store who have to follow the rules argos set out in their employment contract.

No, I followed their website links and went to the head office, I am
not stupid,

Ah ! so you were just wearing an excellent disguise.

I am fully aware that anyone on the end of a phone line or
working behind the counter is not likely to have a clue about the
product range.

So you're now refering to the CEO of argos that yuo spoke to ?


Should I have felt strongly about the problem or if I thought the
public were at serious risk, then I would have persued the problem all
the way up.

Yes and that could be painful ;-)
I didn't know argos sold anal probes.



I think you expect too much of a retailer.

I don't you do.


Professionally I have had
to inform companies that their products were not up to spec and these
ranged from switches to EX rated barrier assemblies through to
calibration data. All these were supplied by Internationally known
manufacturers who were specialists in their field.

Have you worked with grenfell tower ?


All the points raised were serious quality or safety issues.

So.
I thought you were talkming about argos.

You brought Argos up, they are your standards for safety, not mine.


If errors from these people can hit the market, then I would not have
too much faith in Argos acting as a "gateway" for goods.

I would until someone proved differnt.


Users must inspect items themselves.

They donl't have to by law.

No, but try getting a payout from an insurance company if the plug top
was off.

Why should they get an insurance pay off just because the plug top is off ?

They wont. Thats why inspection is needed.

That's part of quality contol and that is NOT part of the counter staffs job in argos.



No the rule books will account for that. Try sticking your penis in an angle grinder and then claim it's not safe what pay off would you expect ?


If there was no guard fitted to the angle grinder, or an employer
issued it to someone untrained in it's use there could well be
repercussions. The employer would without question be liable.

could be, but you're trying to say it's the angle grinders manufactiuers fault.

How you arrive at that gem is totally beyond me!


Likewise supplying a grinder to someone with mental problems would not
be a good idea.

But that wouldn;t be argos fault either. Those with mental problems are allowed to buy angle grinders from argos there;s no law against it, now if that person was say under 16 and argos were suppling knives to school children (as with glue and fag sales) yes that could cause them a problem.


It certainly isn't taking reasonable care.

dedending on what you call resonable.



If said penis was chopped off as opposed to eroded slightly, it would
be recordable.

anything can be recorded.


In fact a recent concren I had was a friend posted a video to yuotube and he did say contains flashing imagery or words to that affect.
Yes it's pretty bad towards the end (IMO) I find it difficult to watch, I'm not sure what would happen if someone suffred a fit after viewing.

Nothing I would think.

If your friend had very large amounts of money and someone, somewhere
thought it would be profitable to have a fit, I'm sure they could
raise a few pounds to try it on in court though.


Basically as far as testing goes, some people would not know how to
spot an unsafe item.

Some will know not to use an item, but will just put it to one side
and leave it for others to spot.



The chances of killing someone with duff electrical goods are low, in
fact I would be doubtful if the classic murder technique of dropping a
heater into the bath would be a great success at all, but I don't
really have the desire to try to prove it.



Regardless of the legal position, everyone has a duty of care to
ensure that no one is put at risk because of an action or indeed
inaction by that person.

If a PAT test is deemed to be an action that removes risk in certain
establishments, then they have my full support.


AB

On 07/02/2018 22:23, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:06:45 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 16:42:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:26:38 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

Argos has to sell stuff that is electrically safe amonst other things.
If something is unsafe they have to stop selling it.

They are not an authourity.

They do not know what they are selling when it comes to technical/
legal requirements. Or at least those I have interacted with don't.

you have interacted with the purchasing department?








:-)

Users must inspect items themselves.

They donl't have to by law.

No, but try getting a payout from an insurance company if the plug top
was off.

I just called trading standards and they came and took an iron away for
testing when I pulled the plug out and it left the live pin sticking out
of the socket.

The testing showed that it was probably a one off fault as the pins were
riveted.


French cr@p.

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 15:45:59 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 07:08:27 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 13:32:11 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 03:51:58 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 22:23:54 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:06:45 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 16:42:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:26:38 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

Argos has to sell stuff that is electrically safe amonst other things.
If something is unsafe they have to stop selling it.

They are not an authourity.

They don't have to be, they just have to obay consumer law regarding selling stuff to the general public.

They do not know what they are selling when it comes to technical/
legal requirements.

'They' do.

Or at least those I have interacted with don't.

I doubt you've ever spoken to argos, you might have spoken to an assistant at the store who have to follow the rules argos set out in their employment contract.

No, I followed their website links and went to the head office, I am
not stupid,

Ah ! so you were just wearing an excellent disguise.

I am fully aware that anyone on the end of a phone line or
working behind the counter is not likely to have a clue about the
product range.

So you're now refering to the CEO of argos that yuo spoke to ?


Should I have felt strongly about the problem or if I thought the
public were at serious risk, then I would have persued the problem all
the way up.

Yes and that could be painful ;-)
I didn't know argos sold anal probes.



I think you expect too much of a retailer.

I don't you do.


Professionally I have had
to inform companies that their products were not up to spec and these
ranged from switches to EX rated barrier assemblies through to
calibration data. All these were supplied by Internationally known
manufacturers who were specialists in their field.

Have you worked with grenfell tower ?


All the points raised were serious quality or safety issues.

So.
I thought you were talkming about argos.

You brought Argos up, they are your standards for safety, not mine.

No you did.


But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

You're the one that mention the spotty entity at argos not me.


If there was no guard fitted to the angle grinder, or an employer
issued it to someone untrained in it's use there could well be
repercussions. The employer would without question be liable.

could be, but you're trying to say it's the angle grinders manufactiuers fault.

How you arrive at that gem is totally beyond me!

No supirse there, but it's because the law is differtn between countries, so you just have to obey the H&S and whatever else the country you are in states or face the consequancies.




Likewise supplying a grinder to someone with mental problems would not
be a good idea.

But that wouldn;t be argos fault either. Those with mental problems are allowed to buy angle grinders from argos there;s no law against it, now if that person was say under 16 and argos were suppling knives to school children (as with glue and fag sales) yes that could cause them a problem.


It certainly isn't taking reasonable care.

dedending on what you call resonable.



If said penis was chopped off as opposed to eroded slightly, it would
be recordable.

anything can be recorded.


In fact a recent concren I had was a friend posted a video to yuotube and he did say contains flashing imagery or words to that affect.
Yes it's pretty bad towards the end (IMO) I find it difficult to watch, I'm not sure what would happen if someone suffred a fit after viewing.

Nothing I would think.

Hopefully not, but if for any reason something does happen he has done what is advised in putting a warning just like they do on TV, which is also a relatively recent thing, I don;t remerb watching the news years ago and being warned about flashing lights.


If your friend had very large amounts of money and someone, somewhere
thought it would be profitable to have a fit, I'm sure they could
raise a few pounds to try it on in court though.

The same sort of person that coulkd pick up an angle grinder and remove any form of protection it offered.


Basically as far as testing goes, some people would not know how to
spot an unsafe item.

True and that is one reason why we have H&S, to limit the likelihood of accidetns and those claiming.



Some will know not to use an item, but will just put it to one side
and leave it for others to spot.

So.


The chances of killing someone with duff electrical goods are low, in
fact I would be doubtful if the classic murder technique of dropping a
heater into the bath would be a great success at all, but I don't
really have the desire to try to prove it.

Wel you don't work with students ;-)


Regardless of the legal position, everyone has a duty of care to
ensure that no one is put at risk because of an action or indeed
inaction by that person.

Sounds good but is meaningless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_of_care

In tort law, a duty of care is a legal obligation which is imposed on an individual requiring adherence to a standard of reasonable care while performing any acts that could foreseeably harm others. It is the first element that must be established to proceed with an action in negligence.


see the word law meaning the legal position, duty of care does have a legal meaning, even if you didn't know it.


If a PAT test is deemed to be an action that removes risk in certain
establishments, then they have my full support.

I'm sure they are estatic with that statement.

On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 08:24:23 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 15:45:59 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 07:08:27 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 13:32:11 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 03:51:58 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 22:23:54 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:06:45 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 16:42:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:26:38 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

Argos has to sell stuff that is electrically safe amonst other things.
If something is unsafe they have to stop selling it.

They are not an authourity.

They don't have to be, they just have to obay consumer law regarding selling stuff to the general public.

They do not know what they are selling when it comes to technical/
legal requirements.

'They' do.

Or at least those I have interacted with don't.

I doubt you've ever spoken to argos, you might have spoken to an assistant at the store who have to follow the rules argos set out in their employment contract.

No, I followed their website links and went to the head office, I am
not stupid,

Ah ! so you were just wearing an excellent disguise.

I am fully aware that anyone on the end of a phone line or
working behind the counter is not likely to have a clue about the
product range.

So you're now refering to the CEO of argos that yuo spoke to ?


Should I have felt strongly about the problem or if I thought the
public were at serious risk, then I would have persued the problem all
the way up.

Yes and that could be painful ;-)
I didn't know argos sold anal probes.



I think you expect too much of a retailer.

I don't you do.


Professionally I have had
to inform companies that their products were not up to spec and these
ranged from switches to EX rated barrier assemblies through to
calibration data. All these were supplied by Internationally known
manufacturers who were specialists in their field.

Have you worked with grenfell tower ?


All the points raised were serious quality or safety issues.

So.
I thought you were talkming about argos.

You brought Argos up, they are your standards for safety, not mine.

No you did.

Academic really, Argos is simpler and the syntax is better than
"compented retail outlet."


But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

You're the one that mention the spotty entity at argos not me.


If there was no guard fitted to the angle grinder, or an employer
issued it to someone untrained in it's use there could well be
repercussions. The employer would without question be liable.

could be, but you're trying to say it's the angle grinders manufactiuers fault.

How you arrive at that gem is totally beyond me!

No supirse there, but it's because the law is differtn between countries, so you just have to obey the H&S and whatever else the country you are in states or face the consequancies.

I think you will find guards on angle grinders universal.

The guards off angle grinders isn't uncommon and it's nothing to do
with manufacturers.




Likewise supplying a grinder to someone with mental problems would not
be a good idea.

But that wouldn;t be argos fault either. Those with mental problems are allowed to buy angle grinders from argos there;s no law against it, now if that person was say under 16 and argos were suppling knives to school children (as with glue and fag sales) yes that could cause them a problem.


It certainly isn't taking reasonable care.

dedending on what you call resonable.



If said penis was chopped off as opposed to eroded slightly, it would
be recordable.

anything can be recorded.


In fact a recent concren I had was a friend posted a video to yuotube and he did say contains flashing imagery or words to that affect.
Yes it's pretty bad towards the end (IMO) I find it difficult to watch, I'm not sure what would happen if someone suffred a fit after viewing.

Nothing I would think.

Hopefully not, but if for any reason something does happen he has done what is advised in putting a warning just like they do on TV, which is also a relatively recent thing, I don;t remerb watching the news years ago and being warned about flashing lights.


They didn't interject the programs with no win no fee solicitors
adverts :-)

If your friend had very large amounts of money and someone, somewhere
thought it would be profitable to have a fit, I'm sure they could
raise a few pounds to try it on in court though.

The same sort of person that coulkd pick up an angle grinder and remove any form of protection it offered.

Different issue that's fraud.

Basically as far as testing goes, some people would not know how to
spot an unsafe item.

True and that is one reason why we have H&S, to limit the likelihood of accidetns and those claiming.



Some will know not to use an item, but will just put it to one side
and leave it for others to spot.

So.


The chances of killing someone with duff electrical goods are low, in
fact I would be doubtful if the classic murder technique of dropping a
heater into the bath would be a great success at all, but I don't
really have the desire to try to prove it.

Wel you don't work with students ;-)


Regardless of the legal position, everyone has a duty of care to
ensure that no one is put at risk because of an action or indeed
inaction by that person.

Sounds good but is meaningless.

It may be for you, but I take it very seriously.

I also have to put up with a lot of trivial garbage in the line of
H&S, but ultimately injuries can make peoples lives a misery, so I do
everything I possibly can to ensure mine and others safety, both in
the workplace and in public areas.

It just isn't worth the misery to walk past a risk.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_of_care

In tort law, a duty of care is a legal obligation which is imposed on an individual requiring adherence to a standard of reasonable care while performing any acts that could foreseeably harm others. It is the first element that must be established to proceed with an action in negligence.


see the word law meaning the legal position, duty of care does have a legal meaning, even if you didn't know it.

Yes, I know. I have sat through a lot more inductions than your good
self.

I can also rattle off all number of choice phrases, legal, advisory or
just plain hyppocratic drivel.


If a PAT test is deemed to be an action that removes risk in certain
establishments, then they have my full support.

I'm sure they are estatic with that statement.


No they are not.

I PAT test things, not often, but it is something that I am trained to
do.

I take it seriously. Everyone should.

The end users see a do not use label and it's merely another obstacle
to site like boots and hi vis.

But at least they will have a reasonable chance of lasting the day
without being electrocuted.

What exactly is your point?

PAT testing has a valuable place in most companies safety regimes, if
you don't think that, I would not think you are ideally suited to
handing gear out to students.

AB

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 16:51:51 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 08:24:23 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 15:45:59 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 07:08:27 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 13:32:11 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 03:51:58 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 22:23:54 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:06:45 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 16:42:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:26:38 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

Argos has to sell stuff that is electrically safe amonst other things.
If something is unsafe they have to stop selling it.

They are not an authourity.

They don't have to be, they just have to obay consumer law regarding selling stuff to the general public.

They do not know what they are selling when it comes to technical/
legal requirements.

'They' do.

Or at least those I have interacted with don't.

I doubt you've ever spoken to argos, you might have spoken to an assistant at the store who have to follow the rules argos set out in their employment contract.

No, I followed their website links and went to the head office, I am
not stupid,

Ah ! so you were just wearing an excellent disguise.

I am fully aware that anyone on the end of a phone line or
working behind the counter is not likely to have a clue about the
product range.

So you're now refering to the CEO of argos that yuo spoke to ?


Should I have felt strongly about the problem or if I thought the
public were at serious risk, then I would have persued the problem all
the way up.

Yes and that could be painful ;-)
I didn't know argos sold anal probes.



I think you expect too much of a retailer.

I don't you do.


Professionally I have had
to inform companies that their products were not up to spec and these
ranged from switches to EX rated barrier assemblies through to
calibration data. All these were supplied by Internationally known
manufacturers who were specialists in their field.

Have you worked with grenfell tower ?


All the points raised were serious quality or safety issues.

So.
I thought you were talkming about argos.

You brought Argos up, they are your standards for safety, not mine.

No you did.

Academic really, Argos is simpler and the syntax is better than
"compented retail outlet."

Well as long as we both know we are talking about the same retail outlet and not some greek God.



But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

You're the one that mention the spotty entity at argos not me.


If there was no guard fitted to the angle grinder, or an employer
issued it to someone untrained in it's use there could well be
repercussions. The employer would without question be liable.

could be, but you're trying to say it's the angle grinders manufactiuers fault.

How you arrive at that gem is totally beyond me!

No supirse there, but it's because the law is differtn between countries, so you just have to obey the H&S and whatever else the country you are in states or face the consequancies.

I think you will find guards on angle grinders universal.

I'm not sure you will.
I think if you go to certain 3rd world countries then the guards micght not be there, I even think some might remove them here if they get in the way.
But legally here in the UK grinders should have a guard fitted.



Likewise supplying a grinder to someone with mental problems would not
be a good idea.

But that wouldn;t be argos fault either. Those with mental problems are allowed to buy angle grinders from argos there;s no law against it, now if that person was say under 16 and argos were suppling knives to school children (as with glue and fag sales) yes that could cause them a problem.


It certainly isn't taking reasonable care.

dedending on what you call resonable.



If said penis was chopped off as opposed to eroded slightly, it would
be recordable.

anything can be recorded.


In fact a recent concren I had was a friend posted a video to yuotube and he did say contains flashing imagery or words to that affect.
Yes it's pretty bad towards the end (IMO) I find it difficult to watch, I'm not sure what would happen if someone suffred a fit after viewing.

Nothing I would think.

Hopefully not, but if for any reason something does happen he has done what is advised in putting a warning just like they do on TV, which is also a relatively recent thing, I don;t remerb watching the news years ago and being warned about flashing lights.


They didn't interject the programs with no win no fee solicitors
adverts :-)

Not yet, but it's a good idea, target advertising will become the norm soon-ish.


If your friend had very large amounts of money and someone, somewhere
thought it would be profitable to have a fit, I'm sure they could
raise a few pounds to try it on in court though.

The same sort of person that coulkd pick up an angle grinder and remove any form of protection it offered.

Different issue that's fraud.

No, perhaps stupidity, or perhaps removed for cleaning, maintainace or repair.



Regardless of the legal position, everyone has a duty of care to
ensure that no one is put at risk because of an action or indeed
inaction by that person.

Sounds good but is meaningless.

It may be for you, but I take it very seriously.

Duty of care is a legal thing in tort law.


I also have to put up with a lot of trivial garbage in the line of
H&S,

Yes I know henbce my H&S poster.

but ultimately injuries can make peoples lives a misery,

true they can be funny too.

Ever seen a safety notice on a cucmuber telling you to not leave it on a sofa and aviod sitting down on a sofa with a cucumber when naked. ?
Infact that goes for buzz lightyear too, but have yuo ever seen a warning sticker on one ?



so I do
everything I possibly can to ensure mine and others safety, both in
the workplace and in public areas.

Me too, but as my friend foudn out when working with a lot of polish on building sites if they call out something in polish which means "a ****ing great girder is swings towards yuo being English that safety warnign in Polish pretty much feel on deaf ears. Didnlt help that he was wearing ear protectors either, but that's H&S for you.


It just isn't worth the misery to walk past a risk.

Depends on the situation and the person.
Me I alwasy stand well behind the yellow line on station platforms , but not everyone does, which does me I miss about 3 trains in the mornings.
I;d rather miss them than they hit me, but others take a calcualed risk I assume, but why they feel the need to lean over hte platform edge to lok done the tunnnel I'll never know because I dobnl;t think it increases the train frequencies but then again I've never tried.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_of_care

In tort law, a duty of care is a legal obligation which is imposed on an individual requiring adherence to a standard of reasonable care while performing any acts that could foreseeably harm others. It is the first element that must be established to proceed with an action in negligence.


see the word law meaning the legal position, duty of care does have a legal meaning, even if you didn't know it.

Yes, I know. I have sat through a lot more inductions than your good
self.

So yuo should have know what duty of care means.


I can also rattle off all number of choice phrases, legal, advisory or
just plain hyppocratic drivel.

Yesw I see you've been practising ;-P




I PAT test things, not often, but it is something that I am trained to
do.

Well last year I had about 3,500 items PAT tested for my lab.


I take it seriously. Everyone should.

As seriuosly as it desrves to be taken.
Years ago the PAT tetser failed 2 of my 24V soldering irons I didnlt agree with him that they had failed but I chucked them away anyway and just brought 2 replacement £50 or so wasnl;t my money, so I didn't really care that much.


The end users see a do not use label and it's merely another obstacle
to site like boots and hi vis.

Nom it isn;t our PAT testers put a fail lable on any item that has faile dand it's a RED label, then I take that item and either fix the problem or take action to get rid of the item from use, cutting off the plug is usually the best way.


But at least they will have a reasonable chance of lasting the day
without being electrocuted.

What exactly is your point?

PAT testing has a valuable place in most companies safety regimes,

It can be , it can also be a cash cow.

if
you don't think that, I would not think you are ideally suited to
handing gear out to students.

I don;t hand out things I donlt think are safe and that even includeds items that have passed their PAT test.

On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 09:22:45 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 16:51:51 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 08:24:23 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 15:45:59 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 07:08:27 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 13:32:11 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 03:51:58 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 22:23:54 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:06:45 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 16:42:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:26:38 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

Argos has to sell stuff that is electrically safe amonst other things.
If something is unsafe they have to stop selling it.

They are not an authourity.

They don't have to be, they just have to obay consumer law regarding selling stuff to the general public.

They do not know what they are selling when it comes to technical/
legal requirements.

'They' do.

Or at least those I have interacted with don't.

I doubt you've ever spoken to argos, you might have spoken to an assistant at the store who have to follow the rules argos set out in their employment contract.

No, I followed their website links and went to the head office, I am
not stupid,

Ah ! so you were just wearing an excellent disguise.

I am fully aware that anyone on the end of a phone line or
working behind the counter is not likely to have a clue about the
product range.

So you're now refering to the CEO of argos that yuo spoke to ?


Should I have felt strongly about the problem or if I thought the
public were at serious risk, then I would have persued the problem all
the way up.

Yes and that could be painful ;-)
I didn't know argos sold anal probes.



I think you expect too much of a retailer.

I don't you do.


Professionally I have had
to inform companies that their products were not up to spec and these
ranged from switches to EX rated barrier assemblies through to
calibration data. All these were supplied by Internationally known
manufacturers who were specialists in their field.

Have you worked with grenfell tower ?


All the points raised were serious quality or safety issues.

So.
I thought you were talkming about argos.

You brought Argos up, they are your standards for safety, not mine.

No you did.

Academic really, Argos is simpler and the syntax is better than
"compented retail outlet."

Well as long as we both know we are talking about the same retail outlet and not some greek God.



But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

You're the one that mention the spotty entity at argos not me.


If there was no guard fitted to the angle grinder, or an employer
issued it to someone untrained in it's use there could well be
repercussions. The employer would without question be liable.

could be, but you're trying to say it's the angle grinders manufactiuers fault.

How you arrive at that gem is totally beyond me!

No supirse there, but it's because the law is differtn between countries, so you just have to obey the H&S and whatever else the country you are in states or face the consequancies.

I think you will find guards on angle grinders universal.

I'm not sure you will.
I think if you go to certain 3rd world countries then the guards micght not be there, I even think some might remove them here if they get in the way.
But legally here in the UK grinders should have a guard fitted.



Likewise supplying a grinder to someone with mental problems would not
be a good idea.

But that wouldn;t be argos fault either. Those with mental problems are allowed to buy angle grinders from argos there;s no law against it, now if that person was say under 16 and argos were suppling knives to school children (as with glue and fag sales) yes that could cause them a problem.


It certainly isn't taking reasonable care.

dedending on what you call resonable.



If said penis was chopped off as opposed to eroded slightly, it would
be recordable.

anything can be recorded.


In fact a recent concren I had was a friend posted a video to yuotube and he did say contains flashing imagery or words to that affect.
Yes it's pretty bad towards the end (IMO) I find it difficult to watch, I'm not sure what would happen if someone suffred a fit after viewing.

Nothing I would think.

Hopefully not, but if for any reason something does happen he has done what is advised in putting a warning just like they do on TV, which is also a relatively recent thing, I don;t remerb watching the news years ago and being warned about flashing lights.


They didn't interject the programs with no win no fee solicitors
adverts :-)

Not yet, but it's a good idea, target advertising will become the norm soon-ish.


If your friend had very large amounts of money and someone, somewhere
thought it would be profitable to have a fit, I'm sure they could
raise a few pounds to try it on in court though.

The same sort of person that coulkd pick up an angle grinder and remove any form of protection it offered.

Different issue that's fraud.

No, perhaps stupidity, or perhaps removed for cleaning, maintainace or repair.



Regardless of the legal position, everyone has a duty of care to
ensure that no one is put at risk because of an action or indeed
inaction by that person.

Sounds good but is meaningless.

It may be for you, but I take it very seriously.

Duty of care is a legal thing in tort law.


I also have to put up with a lot of trivial garbage in the line of
H&S,

Yes I know henbce my H&S poster.

but ultimately injuries can make peoples lives a misery,

true they can be funny too.

Ever seen a safety notice on a cucmuber telling you to not leave it on a sofa and aviod sitting down on a sofa with a cucumber when naked. ?
Infact that goes for buzz lightyear too, but have yuo ever seen a warning sticker on one ?



so I do
everything I possibly can to ensure mine and others safety, both in
the workplace and in public areas.

Me too, but as my friend foudn out when working with a lot of polish on building sites if they call out something in polish which means "a ****ing great girder is swings towards yuo being English that safety warnign in Polish pretty much feel on deaf ears. Didnlt help that he was wearing ear protectors either, but that's H&S for you.


It just isn't worth the misery to walk past a risk.

Depends on the situation and the person.
Me I alwasy stand well behind the yellow line on station platforms , but not everyone does, which does me I miss about 3 trains in the mornings.
I;d rather miss them than they hit me, but others take a calcualed risk I assume, but why they feel the need to lean over hte platform edge to lok done the tunnnel I'll never know because I dobnl;t think it increases the train frequencies but then again I've never tried.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_of_care

In tort law, a duty of care is a legal obligation which is imposed on an individual requiring adherence to a standard of reasonable care while performing any acts that could foreseeably harm others. It is the first element that must be established to proceed with an action in negligence.


see the word law meaning the legal position, duty of care does have a legal meaning, even if you didn't know it.

Yes, I know. I have sat through a lot more inductions than your good
self.

So yuo should have know what duty of care means.


I can also rattle off all number of choice phrases, legal, advisory or
just plain hyppocratic drivel.

Yesw I see you've been practising ;-P




I PAT test things, not often, but it is something that I am trained to
do.

Well last year I had about 3,500 items PAT tested for my lab.


I take it seriously. Everyone should.

As seriuosly as it desrves to be taken.
Years ago the PAT tetser failed 2 of my 24V soldering irons I didnlt agree with him that they had failed but I chucked them away anyway and just brought 2 replacement £50 or so wasnl;t my money, so I didn't really care that much.


The end users see a do not use label and it's merely another obstacle
to site like boots and hi vis.

Nom it isn;t our PAT testers put a fail lable on any item that has faile dand it's a RED label, then I take that item and either fix the problem or take action to get rid of the item from use, cutting off the plug is usually the best way.


But at least they will have a reasonable chance of lasting the day
without being electrocuted.

What exactly is your point?

PAT testing has a valuable place in most companies safety regimes,

It can be , it can also be a cash cow.

if
you don't think that, I would not think you are ideally suited to
handing gear out to students.

I don;t hand out things I donlt think are safe and that even includeds items that have passed their PAT test.

Glad to hear it.

And if I ever visit your establishment I would be more than happy to
accept the loan of a semi automated bedwetting alarm. 110V of course.

AB

On 03/02/18 08:40, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Kerry is closest to my destination [Fahamore, Castlegregory] but I
think the only UK flight in is from Stanstead.

We used it for a holiday (from Stanstead), probably 15 years ago (may
have changed since) but they had to clear the cows off the runway before
our flight could take off. Back then, there were two gates - being two
doors in the same room about 20 feet apart.
You half expected to see a bunch of khaki tents, and pilots in sheepskin
jackets g - nice little airport...


Yup, Kerry Airport is small. Smaller than ya typical DIY shed, a third
of it is space for the bar... take a look on google maps!

https://goo.gl/maps/F2noBoXvjwM2

Been a few times there over the Stansted route, wondered at the rather
different perspective on security the two airports have got.

--
Adrian C

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 11:52:01 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:

No the rule books will account for that. Try sticking your penis in an angle grinder and then claim it's not safe what pay off would you expect ?

well it would certainly get the adrenaline flowing
Whisky Dave and his bizarre as ever advice.

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 15:08:30 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 8 February 2018 13:32:11 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp

If errors from these people can hit the market, then I would not have
too much faith in Argos acting as a "gateway" for goods.

I would until someone proved differnt.

I once was given a value hoover of theirs, and ended up using it twice before I planned to pass it to someone. It worked well, but the mains lead got hot _unwound_, I'd hate to imagine what would happen if not fully unwound. The noise level was so bad I had to wear ear defenders. I chopped the lead off & binned it on safety grounds, better no hoover than a total fire hazard.

On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 18:15:12 +0000, Adrian Caspersz
wrote:

On 03/02/18 08:40, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Kerry is closest to my destination [Fahamore, Castlegregory] but I
think the only UK flight in is from Stanstead.

We used it for a holiday (from Stanstead), probably 15 years ago (may
have changed since) but they had to clear the cows off the runway before
our flight could take off. Back then, there were two gates - being two
doors in the same room about 20 feet apart.
You half expected to see a bunch of khaki tents, and pilots in sheepskin
jackets g - nice little airport...


Yup, Kerry Airport is small. Smaller than ya typical DIY shed, a third
of it is space for the bar... take a look on google maps!

https://goo.gl/maps/F2noBoXvjwM2

Been a few times there over the Stansted route, wondered at the rather
different perspective on security the two airports have got.

If you want to use the cafeteria, I helped pay for the thing, so you
can ask for a coffee on me.

/the last time I travelled from there to Dublin, they were charging a
ta
tariff on each passenger for the building of a cafeteria "For the
benefit of airport users"

Normally I would vote with my feet, but Kerry does not have a vast
quantity of alternatives.

It's many years since I used the airport, it is still small, but I
assume the throughput has increased considerably if only because of
the number of companiesin and size of the car hire area.

Security wasn't much of an issue then and was reasonably quick.

Oddly enough the speed at which you go through security and the amount
of hassle One gets is not at all related to their effectiveness.

I have donated vast quantities of terminal drivers to Birmingham
airport but Cork still seem to find the odd one or two that Birmingham
missed.

The most fuss and stupidity occurs at Manchester and they are useless.

I did think of arguing that it would take a pilot more than the
flidght time to bleed out to a state of unconciousness when stabbed by
a steadfast 6", but methinks this wouldnt allow me to keep the thing.

I would guess that Kerry would be a better security experience. Never
used Stanstead, but if my trips through Cork and Dublin are anything
to go by, I would imagine Kerry is pretty hassle free and efficient in
comparison to Stanstead.

AB

On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 10:34:55 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 15:08:30 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 8 February 2018 13:32:11 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp

If errors from these people can hit the market, then I would not have
too much faith in Argos acting as a "gateway" for goods.

I would until someone proved differnt.

I once was given a value hoover of theirs, and ended up using it twice before I planned to pass it to someone. It worked well, but the mains lead got hot _unwound_, I'd hate to imagine what would happen if not fully unwound. The noise level was so bad I had to wear ear defenders. I chopped the lead off & binned it on safety grounds, better no hoover than a total fire hazard.

Hot unwound isn't right. What power was it?

Even at 1kW, I wouldn't have thought that the cable should have been
obviously warm to the touch.

Sounds like the rotor might have had a shorted turn. Was the mains
fuse correct for the power rating?

Still as is evident from the number of tumble dryer fires, a popular
make with tens of thousands of sales is no guarantee that there isn't
an inherent problem.

AB

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 19:09:20 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 10:34:55 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 8 February 2018 15:08:30 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 8 February 2018 13:32:11 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp

If errors from these people can hit the market, then I would not have
too much faith in Argos acting as a "gateway" for goods.

I would until someone proved differnt.

I once was given a value hoover of theirs, and ended up using it twice before I planned to pass it to someone. It worked well, but the mains lead got hot _unwound_, I'd hate to imagine what would happen if not fully unwound. The noise level was so bad I had to wear ear defenders. I chopped the lead off & binned it on safety grounds, better no hoover than a total fire hazard.

Hot unwound isn't right. What power was it?

600W. I presume it was a CCS lead or similar.

Even at 1kW, I wouldn't have thought that the cable should have been
obviously warm to the touch.

Sounds like the rotor might have had a shorted turn. Was the mains
fuse correct for the power rating?

no idea

Still as is evident from the number of tumble dryer fires, a popular
make with tens of thousands of sales is no guarantee that there isn't
an inherent problem.

AB

I expect the design was fine when approved by their buyer, but you know how chinese manufacturers cut corners afterwards. The excessive noise level leads me to think it wasn't just a fault. And if it had been a motor fault, a mains lead going from cold to hot would mean the motor windings going from hot to meltdown fairly quickly. I did have a quick look at the motor, it showed no sign of overheating.

And they evidently became aware of the problem, so it wasn't a 1 off, as their following replacement model was unusually quiet.


NT

On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 11:51:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:

I expect the design was fine when approved by their buyer, but you know how chinese manufacturers cut corners afterwards. The excessive noise level leads me to think it wasn't just a fault. And if it had been a motor fault, a mains lead going from cold to hot would mean the motor windings going from hot to meltdown fairly quickly. I did have a quick look at the motor, it showed no sign of overheating.

And they evidently became aware of the problem, so it wasn't a 1 off, as their following replacement model was unusually quiet.

Less than 3A, even at 1 Ohm the cable shouldn't dissapate a noticable
amount of power.

It probably would have had a 13A fuse, but if it did have a shorted
turn I would expect the aroma to be quite strong.

From memory, I'm fairly sure there was obvious damage to the
commutator/ brushes in these cases.

Oh well as long as the fuse link was thinner than the cable and the
fire brigade were not too many miles
away.................................. :-)

AB

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 20:04:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 11:51:21 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:

I expect the design was fine when approved by their buyer, but you know how chinese manufacturers cut corners afterwards. The excessive noise level leads me to think it wasn't just a fault. And if it had been a motor fault, a mains lead going from cold to hot would mean the motor windings going from hot to meltdown fairly quickly. I did have a quick look at the motor, it showed no sign of overheating.

And they evidently became aware of the problem, so it wasn't a 1 off, as their following replacement model was unusually quiet.

Less than 3A, even at 1 Ohm the cable shouldn't dissapate a noticable
amount of power.

good flex no, but CCS would

It probably would have had a 13A fuse, but if it did have a shorted
turn I would expect the aroma to be quite strong.

From memory, I'm fairly sure there was obvious damage to the
commutator/ brushes in these cases.

it wasn't that, the thing ran fine. It's easy to see when there's a turn shorted.

Oh well as long as the fuse link was thinner than the cable and the
fire brigade were not too many miles
away.................................. :-)

AB

I doubt that


NT

On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 15:47:24 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 20:04:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 11:51:21 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:

I expect the design was fine when approved by their buyer, but you know how chinese manufacturers cut corners afterwards. The excessive noise level leads me to think it wasn't just a fault. And if it had been a motor fault, a mains lead going from cold to hot would mean the motor windings going from hot to meltdown fairly quickly. I did have a quick look at the motor, it showed no sign of overheating.

And they evidently became aware of the problem, so it wasn't a 1 off, as their following replacement model was unusually quiet.

Less than 3A, even at 1 Ohm the cable shouldn't dissapate a noticable
amount of power.

good flex no, but CCS would

Not come across the term for mains cable before. Copper Clad Steel?

As far as I'm aware it's never used for flex if thats what you mean.
It would be totally unsuitable. At 50 Hz the steel would be passing
the current, the copper would be of little use apart from corrosion
protection.

It probably would have had a 13A fuse, but if it did have a shorted
turn I would expect the aroma to be quite strong.

From memory, I'm fairly sure there was obvious damage to the
commutator/ brushes in these cases.

it wasn't that, the thing ran fine. It's easy to see when there's a turn shorted.

If the mains cable was overheating it wasn't running fine.
Paradoxically, it may have an open circuit. This wasn't a common
problem though, and on the only time it happened to me, I never
thought of measuring the current.

If it was a warranty job it's academic.

Incidentally, I find that chinese electrical goods are getting quite
good now. One or two retailers do seem to spend a bit of effort with
selection, which makes their product range very reputable.

It depends what you go for I suppose, you can buy the cheapest
anywhere and it wont provide the service or longevity of something
that has had a lot of quality control bought into it.

Oh well as long as the fuse link was thinner than the cable and the
fire brigade were not too many miles
away.................................. :-)

AB

I doubt that


NT

On Friday, 9 February 2018 00:15:50 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 15:47:24 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 8 February 2018 20:04:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 11:51:21 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:

I expect the design was fine when approved by their buyer, but you know how chinese manufacturers cut corners afterwards. The excessive noise level leads me to think it wasn't just a fault. And if it had been a motor fault, a mains lead going from cold to hot would mean the motor windings going from hot to meltdown fairly quickly. I did have a quick look at the motor, it showed no sign of overheating.

And they evidently became aware of the problem, so it wasn't a 1 off, as their following replacement model was unusually quiet.

Less than 3A, even at 1 Ohm the cable shouldn't dissapate a noticable
amount of power.

good flex no, but CCS would

Not come across the term for mains cable before. Copper Clad Steel?

yup

As far as I'm aware it's never used for flex if thats what you mean.
It would be totally unsuitable. At 50 Hz the steel would be passing
the current, the copper would be of little use apart from corrosion
protection.

it gets used sometimes in corner cutting noncompliant chinese goods. needless to say its current rating is much lower than copper.

It probably would have had a 13A fuse, but if it did have a shorted
turn I would expect the aroma to be quite strong.

From memory, I'm fairly sure there was obvious damage to the
commutator/ brushes in these cases.

it wasn't that, the thing ran fine. It's easy to see when there's a turn shorted.

If the mains cable was overheating it wasn't running fine.
Paradoxically, it may have an open circuit. This wasn't a common
problem though, and on the only time it happened to me, I never
thought of measuring the current.

I see you're being stupid again. I used it, I examined it, I checked out the motor. It was running correctly, there was no motor problem. If you can't get your head round the simple stuff you'll go back in the filter.


NT

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 17:31:54 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 09:22:45 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 16:51:51 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 08:24:23 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 15:45:59 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 07:08:27 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 13:32:11 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 03:51:58 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 22:23:54 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:06:45 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 February 2018 16:42:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:26:38 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:


But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

Argos has to sell stuff that is electrically safe amonst other things.
If something is unsafe they have to stop selling it.

They are not an authourity.

They don't have to be, they just have to obay consumer law regarding selling stuff to the general public.

They do not know what they are selling when it comes to technical/
legal requirements.

'They' do.

Or at least those I have interacted with don't.

I doubt you've ever spoken to argos, you might have spoken to an assistant at the store who have to follow the rules argos set out in their employment contract.

No, I followed their website links and went to the head office, I am
not stupid,

Ah ! so you were just wearing an excellent disguise.

I am fully aware that anyone on the end of a phone line or
working behind the counter is not likely to have a clue about the
product range.

So you're now refering to the CEO of argos that yuo spoke to ?


Should I have felt strongly about the problem or if I thought the
public were at serious risk, then I would have persued the problem all
the way up.

Yes and that could be painful ;-)
I didn't know argos sold anal probes.



I think you expect too much of a retailer.

I don't you do.


Professionally I have had
to inform companies that their products were not up to spec and these
ranged from switches to EX rated barrier assemblies through to
calibration data. All these were supplied by Internationally known
manufacturers who were specialists in their field.

Have you worked with grenfell tower ?


All the points raised were serious quality or safety issues.

So.
I thought you were talkming about argos.

You brought Argos up, they are your standards for safety, not mine.

No you did.

Academic really, Argos is simpler and the syntax is better than
"compented retail outlet."

Well as long as we both know we are talking about the same retail outlet and not some greek God.



But new stuff yuo assume is OK if suplpied by a compented retail outlet.
But picking up a drill off a building site you can't be a sure it'll be OK.
A user can do some checks for themselves.


Oh dear, I had to come back on that one :-)

I'll ask the spotty entity at Argos about the insulation class of my
next TV

You're the one that mention the spotty entity at argos not me.


If there was no guard fitted to the angle grinder, or an employer
issued it to someone untrained in it's use there could well be
repercussions. The employer would without question be liable.

could be, but you're trying to say it's the angle grinders manufactiuers fault.

How you arrive at that gem is totally beyond me!

No supirse there, but it's because the law is differtn between countries, so you just have to obey the H&S and whatever else the country you are in states or face the consequancies.

I think you will find guards on angle grinders universal.

I'm not sure you will.
I think if you go to certain 3rd world countries then the guards micght not be there, I even think some might remove them here if they get in the way.
But legally here in the UK grinders should have a guard fitted.



Likewise supplying a grinder to someone with mental problems would not
be a good idea.

But that wouldn;t be argos fault either. Those with mental problems are allowed to buy angle grinders from argos there;s no law against it, now if that person was say under 16 and argos were suppling knives to school children (as with glue and fag sales) yes that could cause them a problem.


It certainly isn't taking reasonable care.

dedending on what you call resonable.



If said penis was chopped off as opposed to eroded slightly, it would
be recordable.

anything can be recorded.


In fact a recent concren I had was a friend posted a video to yuotube and he did say contains flashing imagery or words to that affect.
Yes it's pretty bad towards the end (IMO) I find it difficult to watch, I'm not sure what would happen if someone suffred a fit after viewing..

Nothing I would think.

Hopefully not, but if for any reason something does happen he has done what is advised in putting a warning just like they do on TV, which is also a relatively recent thing, I don;t remerb watching the news years ago and being warned about flashing lights.


They didn't interject the programs with no win no fee solicitors
adverts :-)

Not yet, but it's a good idea, target advertising will become the norm soon-ish.


If your friend had very large amounts of money and someone, somewhere
thought it would be profitable to have a fit, I'm sure they could
raise a few pounds to try it on in court though.

The same sort of person that coulkd pick up an angle grinder and remove any form of protection it offered.

Different issue that's fraud.

No, perhaps stupidity, or perhaps removed for cleaning, maintainace or repair.



Regardless of the legal position, everyone has a duty of care to
ensure that no one is put at risk because of an action or indeed
inaction by that person.

Sounds good but is meaningless.

It may be for you, but I take it very seriously.

Duty of care is a legal thing in tort law.


I also have to put up with a lot of trivial garbage in the line of
H&S,

Yes I know henbce my H&S poster.

but ultimately injuries can make peoples lives a misery,

true they can be funny too.

Ever seen a safety notice on a cucmuber telling you to not leave it on a sofa and aviod sitting down on a sofa with a cucumber when naked. ?
Infact that goes for buzz lightyear too, but have yuo ever seen a warning sticker on one ?



so I do
everything I possibly can to ensure mine and others safety, both in
the workplace and in public areas.

Me too, but as my friend foudn out when working with a lot of polish on building sites if they call out something in polish which means "a ****ing great girder is swings towards yuo being English that safety warnign in Polish pretty much feel on deaf ears. Didnlt help that he was wearing ear protectors either, but that's H&S for you.


It just isn't worth the misery to walk past a risk.

Depends on the situation and the person.
Me I alwasy stand well behind the yellow line on station platforms , but not everyone does, which does me I miss about 3 trains in the mornings.
I;d rather miss them than they hit me, but others take a calcualed risk I assume, but why they feel the need to lean over hte platform edge to lok done the tunnnel I'll never know because I dobnl;t think it increases the train frequencies but then again I've never tried.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_of_care

In tort law, a duty of care is a legal obligation which is imposed on an individual requiring adherence to a standard of reasonable care while performing any acts that could foreseeably harm others. It is the first element that must be established to proceed with an action in negligence.


see the word law meaning the legal position, duty of care does have a legal meaning, even if you didn't know it.

Yes, I know. I have sat through a lot more inductions than your good
self.

So yuo should have know what duty of care means.


I can also rattle off all number of choice phrases, legal, advisory or
just plain hyppocratic drivel.

Yesw I see you've been practising ;-P




I PAT test things, not often, but it is something that I am trained to
do.

Well last year I had about 3,500 items PAT tested for my lab.


I take it seriously. Everyone should.

As seriuosly as it desrves to be taken.
Years ago the PAT tetser failed 2 of my 24V soldering irons I didnlt agree with him that they had failed but I chucked them away anyway and just brought 2 replacement £50 or so wasnl;t my money, so I didn't really care that much.


The end users see a do not use label and it's merely another obstacle
to site like boots and hi vis.

Nom it isn;t our PAT testers put a fail lable on any item that has faile dand it's a RED label, then I take that item and either fix the problem or take action to get rid of the item from use, cutting off the plug is usually the best way.


But at least they will have a reasonable chance of lasting the day
without being electrocuted.

What exactly is your point?

PAT testing has a valuable place in most companies safety regimes,

It can be , it can also be a cash cow.

if
you don't think that, I would not think you are ideally suited to
handing gear out to students.

I don;t hand out things I donlt think are safe and that even includeds items that have passed their PAT test.

Glad to hear it.

And if I ever visit your establishment I would be more than happy to
accept the loan of a semi automated bedwetting alarm. 110V of course.

I don't keep them in stock so one would need to ordered, if you really need one for PAT testing purposes then we'd expect your company to supply such things you need in order to work through the night like our PAT testers do..
Ours PAT testers asked if we had a radio they could use, I said they'd have to bring their own radio as we don't have one in the lab.




AB

On Thursday, 8 February 2018 18:34:58 UTC, wrote:
On Thursday, 8 February 2018 15:08:30 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 8 February 2018 13:32:11 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp

If errors from these people can hit the market, then I would not have
too much faith in Argos acting as a "gateway" for goods.

I would until someone proved differnt.

I once was given a value hoover of theirs, and ended up using it twice before I planned to pass it to someone.

So you were given it I wonder why ?

It worked well, but the mains lead got hot _unwound_, I'd hate to imagine what would happen if not fully unwound. The noise level was so bad I had to wear ear defenders.

Makes me wonder what use EU regulations have then doesn't it. Or was this value hoover made before 1973 ?
Maybe it was made by VW and not hoover.


I chopped the lead off & binned it on safety grounds, better no hoover than a total fire hazard.

True but better still to have a dyson then, or perhaps a henry depending on your sex life.

On Friday, 9 February 2018 10:59:00 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 8 February 2018 18:34:58 UTC, tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 8 February 2018 15:08:30 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 8 February 2018 13:32:11 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp

If errors from these people can hit the market, then I would not have
too much faith in Argos acting as a "gateway" for goods.

I would until someone proved differnt.

I once was given a value hoover of theirs, and ended up using it twice before I planned to pass it to someone.

So you were given it I wonder why ?

It worked well, but the mains lead got hot _unwound_, I'd hate to imagine what would happen if not fully unwound. The noise level was so bad I had to wear ear defenders.

Makes me wonder what use EU regulations have then doesn't it. Or was this value hoover made before 1973 ?
Maybe it was made by VW and not hoover.

I was given it a few years ago, it hadn't had much use.

I chopped the lead off & binned it on safety grounds, better no hoover than a total fire hazard.

True but better still to have a dyson then, or perhaps a henry depending on your sex life.

Dustette is the one for that according to the BMJ. But I'm happy to say that's not something I have any expertise on.


NT

On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 02:07:44 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Friday, 9 February 2018 00:15:50 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 15:47:24 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 8 February 2018 20:04:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 11:51:21 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:

I expect the design was fine when approved by their buyer, but you know how chinese manufacturers cut corners afterwards. The excessive noise level leads me to think it wasn't just a fault. And if it had been a motor fault, a mains lead going from cold to hot would mean the motor windings going from hot to meltdown fairly quickly. I did have a quick look at the motor, it showed no sign of overheating.

And they evidently became aware of the problem, so it wasn't a 1 off, as their following replacement model was unusually quiet.

Less than 3A, even at 1 Ohm the cable shouldn't dissapate a noticable
amount of power.

good flex no, but CCS would

Not come across the term for mains cable before. Copper Clad Steel?

yup

As far as I'm aware it's never used for flex if thats what you mean.
It would be totally unsuitable. At 50 Hz the steel would be passing
the current, the copper would be of little use apart from corrosion
protection.

it gets used sometimes in corner cutting noncompliant chinese goods. needless to say its current rating is much lower than copper.

It,s used for RF amongst other things, where the current rating is of
no significance and only for fixed installations. No vaccum cleaner
would be fitted with such a component.

It probably would have had a 13A fuse, but if it did have a shorted
turn I would expect the aroma to be quite strong.

From memory, I'm fairly sure there was obvious damage to the
commutator/ brushes in these cases.

it wasn't that, the thing ran fine. It's easy to see when there's a turn shorted.

If the mains cable was overheating it wasn't running fine.
Paradoxically, it may have an open circuit. This wasn't a common
problem though, and on the only time it happened to me, I never
thought of measuring the current.

I see you're being stupid again. I used it, I examined it, I checked out the motor. It was running correctly, there was no motor problem. If you can't get your head round the simple stuff you'll go back in the filter.

I can get my head around simple stuff. You state that the motor was
noisy. The cable will not cause this. Noise is due to bearing
problems, electrical problems with the rotor or even just a good old
mechanical impediment.

Noise is vibration, which is the rapid accelleration and decelleration
of a mechanical item, a signifcant level of force is needed to produce
noise and a high resistance cable will not contribute to that force.

Work = force x distance so your unwanted vibration is going to require
more power, hence the heating effect in the cable.

Please please dont filter me, I dont know what I'd do if I couldn't
communicate with thick plonkers.

AB



NT

On Friday, 9 February 2018 15:08:52 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 02:07:44 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 9 February 2018 00:15:50 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 15:47:24 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 8 February 2018 20:04:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 11:51:21 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:

I expect the design was fine when approved by their buyer, but you know how chinese manufacturers cut corners afterwards. The excessive noise level leads me to think it wasn't just a fault. And if it had been a motor fault, a mains lead going from cold to hot would mean the motor windings going from hot to meltdown fairly quickly. I did have a quick look at the motor, it showed no sign of overheating.

And they evidently became aware of the problem, so it wasn't a 1 off, as their following replacement model was unusually quiet.

Less than 3A, even at 1 Ohm the cable shouldn't dissapate a noticable
amount of power.

good flex no, but CCS would

Not come across the term for mains cable before. Copper Clad Steel?

yup

As far as I'm aware it's never used for flex if thats what you mean.
It would be totally unsuitable. At 50 Hz the steel would be passing
the current, the copper would be of little use apart from corrosion
protection.

it gets used sometimes in corner cutting noncompliant chinese goods. needless to say its current rating is much lower than copper.

It,s used for RF amongst other things, where the current rating is of
no significance and only for fixed installations. No vaccum cleaner
would be fitted with such a component.

So you don't buy goods from China. We do. It gets used on occasion. It gets rejected.

It probably would have had a 13A fuse, but if it did have a shorted
turn I would expect the aroma to be quite strong.

From memory, I'm fairly sure there was obvious damage to the
commutator/ brushes in these cases.

it wasn't that, the thing ran fine. It's easy to see when there's a turn shorted.

If the mains cable was overheating it wasn't running fine.
Paradoxically, it may have an open circuit. This wasn't a common
problem though, and on the only time it happened to me, I never
thought of measuring the current.

I see you're being stupid again. I used it, I examined it, I checked out the motor. It was running correctly, there was no motor problem. If you can't get your head round the simple stuff you'll go back in the filter.

I can get my head around simple stuff. You state that the motor was
noisy. The cable will not cause this. Noise is due to bearing
problems, electrical problems with the rotor or even just a good old
mechanical impediment.

with respect I said the vac was noisy, not the motor. The motor was not noisy. The nature of the noise was plainly not due to bearing problems or rotor problems.

Noise is vibration, which is the rapid accelleration and decelleration
of a mechanical item, a signifcant level of force is needed to produce
noise and a high resistance cable will not contribute to that force.

the item producing the noise was air. That's where the noise came from, badly designed airflow paths.

Work = force x distance so your unwanted vibration is going to require
more power, hence the heating effect in the cable.

Please please dont filter me, I dont know what I'd do if I couldn't
communicate with thick plonkers.

You have not examined the goods, don't know the facts, don't know the cause of the problems, have made wrong guesses and think you know it all, and that I who does have the facts doesn't. I'm pretty sure I know who's the fool.. Again.


NT

On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 12:00:13 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Friday, 9 February 2018 15:08:52 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 02:07:44 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 9 February 2018 00:15:50 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 15:47:24 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 8 February 2018 20:04:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 11:51:21 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:

I expect the design was fine when approved by their buyer, but you know how chinese manufacturers cut corners afterwards. The excessive noise level leads me to think it wasn't just a fault. And if it had been a motor fault, a mains lead going from cold to hot would mean the motor windings going from hot to meltdown fairly quickly. I did have a quick look at the motor, it showed no sign of overheating.

And they evidently became aware of the problem, so it wasn't a 1 off, as their following replacement model was unusually quiet.

Less than 3A, even at 1 Ohm the cable shouldn't dissapate a noticable
amount of power.

good flex no, but CCS would

Not come across the term for mains cable before. Copper Clad Steel?

yup

As far as I'm aware it's never used for flex if thats what you mean.
It would be totally unsuitable. At 50 Hz the steel would be passing
the current, the copper would be of little use apart from corrosion
protection.

it gets used sometimes in corner cutting noncompliant chinese goods. needless to say its current rating is much lower than copper.

It,s used for RF amongst other things, where the current rating is of
no significance and only for fixed installations. No vaccum cleaner
would be fitted with such a component.

So you don't buy goods from China. We do. It gets used on occasion. It gets rejected.

It probably would have had a 13A fuse, but if it did have a shorted
turn I would expect the aroma to be quite strong.

From memory, I'm fairly sure there was obvious damage to the
commutator/ brushes in these cases.

it wasn't that, the thing ran fine. It's easy to see when there's a turn shorted.

If the mains cable was overheating it wasn't running fine.
Paradoxically, it may have an open circuit. This wasn't a common
problem though, and on the only time it happened to me, I never
thought of measuring the current.

I see you're being stupid again. I used it, I examined it, I checked out the motor. It was running correctly, there was no motor problem. If you can't get your head round the simple stuff you'll go back in the filter.

I can get my head around simple stuff. You state that the motor was
noisy. The cable will not cause this. Noise is due to bearing
problems, electrical problems with the rotor or even just a good old
mechanical impediment.

with respect I said the vac was noisy, not the motor. The motor was not noisy. The nature of the noise was plainly not due to bearing problems or rotor problems.

Noise is vibration, which is the rapid accelleration and decelleration
of a mechanical item, a signifcant level of force is needed to produce
noise and a high resistance cable will not contribute to that force.

the item producing the noise was air. That's where the noise came from, badly designed airflow paths.

Work = force x distance so your unwanted vibration is going to require
more power, hence the heating effect in the cable.

Please please dont filter me, I dont know what I'd do if I couldn't
communicate with thick plonkers.

You have not examined the goods, don't know the facts, don't know the cause of the problems, have made wrong guesses and think you know it all, and that I who does have the facts doesn't. I'm pretty sure I know who's the fool. Again.


Ah but you fail to grasp the relavance of what you report. Noise does
not appear as if by magic, without a source, without reason.

Turbulent airflow costs a lot in terms of energy believe me. Since
November I have been involved with little else, and although you
cannot see a way to connect noise and current, anyone with a small
amount of experience would find no problem in identification of the
fault. On the face of it the airflow in a vaccum would not seem to
have a relationship to an overcurrent event, but the excess current
has to go somewhere, the little electrons dont get lost inside the
dusbag you know :-)

Manufactured items can be doddle, simply because the thing worked
once, or an identical unit can be used to help identify the fault.

I spend a lot of time on the phone to people trying to sort out
problems. I use the calls to get figures, measurements, what the
results are, not what they think the problem is.

More often than not they were unable to record the relevant details or
failed to see the patently obvious.

The result being a trek around the UK to unblock a filter or change a
fuse.

One does not guess at anything. It isn't professional.

I certainly dont know it all incidentally, I have a sneaking suspicion
that I never will either :-)

Onward & upward

AB

I thought you were killfiling me?

On Friday, 9 February 2018 22:29:26 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 12:00:13 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 9 February 2018 15:08:52 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 02:07:44 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 9 February 2018 00:15:50 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 15:47:24 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 8 February 2018 20:04:31 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2018 11:51:21 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:

I expect the design was fine when approved by their buyer, but you know how chinese manufacturers cut corners afterwards. The excessive noise level leads me to think it wasn't just a fault. And if it had been a motor fault, a mains lead going from cold to hot would mean the motor windings going from hot to meltdown fairly quickly. I did have a quick look at the motor, it showed no sign of overheating.

And they evidently became aware of the problem, so it wasn't a 1 off, as their following replacement model was unusually quiet.

Less than 3A, even at 1 Ohm the cable shouldn't dissapate a noticable
amount of power.

good flex no, but CCS would

Not come across the term for mains cable before. Copper Clad Steel?

yup

As far as I'm aware it's never used for flex if thats what you mean..
It would be totally unsuitable. At 50 Hz the steel would be passing
the current, the copper would be of little use apart from corrosion
protection.

it gets used sometimes in corner cutting noncompliant chinese goods. needless to say its current rating is much lower than copper.

It,s used for RF amongst other things, where the current rating is of
no significance and only for fixed installations. No vaccum cleaner
would be fitted with such a component.

So you don't buy goods from China. We do. It gets used on occasion. It gets rejected.

It probably would have had a 13A fuse, but if it did have a shorted
turn I would expect the aroma to be quite strong.

From memory, I'm fairly sure there was obvious damage to the
commutator/ brushes in these cases.

it wasn't that, the thing ran fine. It's easy to see when there's a turn shorted.

If the mains cable was overheating it wasn't running fine.
Paradoxically, it may have an open circuit. This wasn't a common
problem though, and on the only time it happened to me, I never
thought of measuring the current.

I see you're being stupid again. I used it, I examined it, I checked out the motor. It was running correctly, there was no motor problem. If you can't get your head round the simple stuff you'll go back in the filter.

I can get my head around simple stuff. You state that the motor was
noisy. The cable will not cause this. Noise is due to bearing
problems, electrical problems with the rotor or even just a good old
mechanical impediment.

with respect I said the vac was noisy, not the motor. The motor was not noisy. The nature of the noise was plainly not due to bearing problems or rotor problems.

Noise is vibration, which is the rapid accelleration and decelleration
of a mechanical item, a signifcant level of force is needed to produce
noise and a high resistance cable will not contribute to that force.

the item producing the noise was air. That's where the noise came from, badly designed airflow paths.

Work = force x distance so your unwanted vibration is going to require
more power, hence the heating effect in the cable.

Please please dont filter me, I dont know what I'd do if I couldn't
communicate with thick plonkers.

You have not examined the goods, don't know the facts, don't know the cause of the problems, have made wrong guesses and think you know it all, and that I who does have the facts doesn't. I'm pretty sure I know who's the fool. Again.


Ah but you fail to grasp the relavance of what you report. Noise does
not appear as if by magic, without a source, without reason.

Turbulent airflow costs a lot in terms of energy believe me. Since
November I have been involved with little else, and although you
cannot see a way to connect noise and current, anyone with a small
amount of experience would find no problem in identification of the
fault. On the face of it the airflow in a vaccum would not seem to
have a relationship to an overcurrent event, but the excess current
has to go somewhere, the little electrons dont get lost inside the
dusbag you know :-)

Manufactured items can be doddle, simply because the thing worked
once, or an identical unit can be used to help identify the fault.

I spend a lot of time on the phone to people trying to sort out
problems. I use the calls to get figures, measurements, what the
results are, not what they think the problem is.

More often than not they were unable to record the relevant details or
failed to see the patently obvious.

The result being a trek around the UK to unblock a filter or change a
fuse.

One does not guess at anything. It isn't professional.

I certainly dont know it all incidentally, I have a sneaking suspicion
that I never will either :-)

Onward & upward

AB

I thought you were killfiling me?

since the motor was not overheating, your interpetation of events does not work.


NT

On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 15:07:43 -0800 (PST), wrote:

SNIP
AB

I thought you were killfiling me?

since the motor was not overheating, your interpetation of events does not work.


NT
Even simpler.

Hot mains lead, no excess current, cold day, cold hands fondling the
mains cable.

That along with a bout of tinnitus, solves your mystery.

I'm glad to have been of service :-)


AB

On Friday, 9 February 2018 23:49:24 UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Fri, 9 Feb 2018 15:07:43 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr wrote:

since the motor was not overheating, your interpetation of events does not work.


NT
Even simpler.

Hot mains lead, no excess current, cold day, cold hands fondling the
mains cable.

That along with a bout of tinnitus, solves your mystery.

I'm glad to have been of service :-)


AB

The only mystery is why you think you know what the facts are when you so plainly don't. Even after you've been told them no less.


NT