Hi All
In another life I used to be involved with PAT testing / electrical
safety testing & quality management on telecoms equipment - so I
understand a bit about electrical safety testing.

Nowadays, I make stained-glass. One of the things I make is a
stained-glass lamp - consisting of a 3-sided or 4-sided 'shade', mounted
on a timber base.
Illumination is using a mains LED or CFL bulb, in a brass bayonet socket.
The mains lead is bought in as a new, ready-made, CE-marked assembly,
with a switch, moulded-on plug and ferrule ends - which I wire into the
screw terminals in the bayonet socket. There's a cable clamp on the
mains lead where it leaves the timber base.

I've been selling these for a while - no problem.
I spoke to a potential retailer this afternoon (they're part of an
electrical wholesaler) who said that he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

So - anybody out there know if this it true or not?

Short of connecting the L, N, E into the wrong terminals on the bayonet
socket (which would be noticed by me on 'final test' as the bulb
wouldn't light), I can't imagine a failure-mode that would make the lamp
unsafe.

I can (if necessary) buy a PAT tester, test each lamp and stick the
sticker on... but is it required?

Any ideas, please?
The country is Ireland, but I'm guessing that the same regulations apply
in the UK as well...
thanks
Adrian

On 02/02/2018 08:05, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
Hi All
In another life I used to be involved with PAT testing / electrical
safety testing & quality management on telecoms equipment - so I
understand a bit about electrical safety testing.

Nowadays, I make stained-glass. One of the things I make is a
stained-glass lamp - consisting of a 3-sided or 4-sided 'shade', mounted
on a timber base.
Illumination is using a mains LED or CFL bulb, in a brass bayonet socket.
The mains lead is bought in as a new, ready-made, CE-marked assembly,
with a switch, moulded-on plug and ferrule ends - which I wire into the
screw terminals in the bayonet socket. There's a cable clamp on the
mains lead where it leaves the timber base.

I've been selling these for a while - no problem.
I spoke to a potential retailer this afternoon (they're part of an
electrical wholesaler) who said that he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

So - anybody out there know if this it true or not?

Short of connecting the L, N, E into the wrong terminals on the bayonet
socket (which would be noticed by me on 'final test' as the bulb
wouldn't light), I can't imagine a failure-mode that would make the lamp
unsafe.

I can (if necessary) buy a PAT tester, test each lamp and stick the
sticker on... but is it required?

Any ideas, please?
The country is Ireland, but I'm guessing that the same regulations apply
in the UK as well...
thanks


Impossible to prove a negative but I'm fairly confident there's no
legislation in the UK requiring a PAT test. Certainly never seen them
on other "craft" lamps. I suspect you have met one of the many varieties
of non-tariff trade barrier - of the genus "it's not a legal requirement
but we won't sell it without one"

Is there no trade body of lamp makers which might know? The Dublin
equivalent of the Worshipful Company of Lightmongers??

PS
Labels? I assume the CE & plug are labelled when supplied but thought
maximum wattage also required.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 02/02/2018 08:34, Robin wrote:
On 02/02/2018 08:05, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
Hi All
In another life I used to be involved with PAT testing / electrical
safety testing & quality management on telecoms equipment - so I
understand a bit about electrical safety testing.

Nowadays, I make stained-glass. One of the things I make is a
stained-glass lamp - consisting of a 3-sided or 4-sided 'shade',
mounted on a timber base.
Illumination is using a mains LED or CFL bulb, in a brass bayonet socket.
The mains lead is bought in as a new, ready-made, CE-marked assembly,
with a switch, moulded-on plug and ferrule ends - which I wire into
the screw terminals in the bayonet socket. There's a cable clamp on
the mains lead where it leaves the timber base.

I've been selling these for a while - no problem.
I spoke to a potential retailer this afternoon (they're part of an
electrical wholesaler) who said that he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

So - anybody out there know if this it true or not?

Short of connecting the L, N, E into the wrong terminals on the
bayonet socket (which would be noticed by me on 'final test' as the
bulb wouldn't light), I can't imagine a failure-mode that would make
the lamp unsafe.

I can (if necessary) buy a PAT tester, test each lamp and stick the
sticker on... but is it required?

Any ideas, please?
The country is Ireland, but I'm guessing that the same regulations
apply in the UK as well...
thanks


Impossible to prove a negative but I'm fairly confident there's no
legislation in the UK requiring a PAT test.Â* Certainly never seen them
on other "craft" lamps. I suspect you have met one of the many varieties
of non-tariff trade barrier - of the genus "it's not a legal requirement
but we won't sell it without one"

Is there no trade body of lamp makers which might know? The Dublin
equivalent of the Worshipful Company of Lightmongers??

PS
Labels? I assume the CE & plug are labelled when supplied but thought
maximum wattage also required.


As they are new and being placed on the Market dont they have to meet
the relevant Safety Standard and have a CE mark applied.

On 02/02/2018 09:26, Robert wrote:
On 02/02/2018 08:34, Robin wrote:
On 02/02/2018 08:05, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
Hi All
In another life I used to be involved with PAT testing / electrical
safety testing & quality management on telecoms equipment - so I
understand a bit about electrical safety testing.

Nowadays, I make stained-glass. One of the things I make is a
stained-glass lamp - consisting of a 3-sided or 4-sided 'shade',
mounted on a timber base.
Illumination is using a mains LED or CFL bulb, in a brass bayonet
socket.
The mains lead is bought in as a new, ready-made, CE-marked assembly,
with a switch, moulded-on plug and ferrule ends - which I wire into
the screw terminals in the bayonet socket. There's a cable clamp on
the mains lead where it leaves the timber base.

I've been selling these for a while - no problem.
I spoke to a potential retailer this afternoon (they're part of an
electrical wholesaler) who said that he wouldn't be able to sell
these lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

So - anybody out there know if this it true or not?

Short of connecting the L, N, E into the wrong terminals on the
bayonet socket (which would be noticed by me on 'final test' as the
bulb wouldn't light), I can't imagine a failure-mode that would make
the lamp unsafe.

I can (if necessary) buy a PAT tester, test each lamp and stick the
sticker on... but is it required?

Any ideas, please?
The country is Ireland, but I'm guessing that the same regulations
apply in the UK as well...
thanks


Impossible to prove a negative but I'm fairly confident there's no
legislation in the UK requiring a PAT test.Â* Certainly never seen them
on other "craft" lamps. I suspect you have met one of the many
varieties of non-tariff trade barrier - of the genus "it's not a legal
requirement but we won't sell it without one"

Is there no trade body of lamp makers which might know? The Dublin
equivalent of the Worshipful Company of Lightmongers??

PS
Labels? I assume the CE & plug are labelled when supplied but thought
maximum wattage also required.


As they are new and being placed on the Market dont they have to meet
the relevant Safety Standard and have a CE mark applied.

Well - that's the question.
If the components (the lead and the bulbholder) are themselves approved,
I'd always worked on the assumption that the whole thing was therefore
approved, given that it was assembled by somebody who knew one end of a
screwdriver from the other, and that the final test (plug it in, switch
it on) would only 'pass' if the wiring was done correctly.
I could, of course, be wrong g

On Friday, 2 February 2018 10:06:44 UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 09:26, Robert wrote:
On 02/02/2018 08:34, Robin wrote:
On 02/02/2018 08:05, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
Hi All
In another life I used to be involved with PAT testing / electrical
safety testing & quality management on telecoms equipment - so I
understand a bit about electrical safety testing.

Nowadays, I make stained-glass. One of the things I make is a
stained-glass lamp - consisting of a 3-sided or 4-sided 'shade',
mounted on a timber base.
Illumination is using a mains LED or CFL bulb, in a brass bayonet
socket.
The mains lead is bought in as a new, ready-made, CE-marked assembly,
with a switch, moulded-on plug and ferrule ends - which I wire into
the screw terminals in the bayonet socket. There's a cable clamp on
the mains lead where it leaves the timber base.

I've been selling these for a while - no problem.
I spoke to a potential retailer this afternoon (they're part of an
electrical wholesaler) who said that he wouldn't be able to sell
these lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

So - anybody out there know if this it true or not?

Short of connecting the L, N, E into the wrong terminals on the
bayonet socket (which would be noticed by me on 'final test' as the
bulb wouldn't light), I can't imagine a failure-mode that would make
the lamp unsafe.

I can (if necessary) buy a PAT tester, test each lamp and stick the
sticker on... but is it required?

Any ideas, please?
The country is Ireland, but I'm guessing that the same regulations
apply in the UK as well...
thanks


Impossible to prove a negative but I'm fairly confident there's no
legislation in the UK requiring a PAT test.Â* Certainly never seen them
on other "craft" lamps. I suspect you have met one of the many
varieties of non-tariff trade barrier - of the genus "it's not a legal
requirement but we won't sell it without one"

Is there no trade body of lamp makers which might know? The Dublin
equivalent of the Worshipful Company of Lightmongers??

PS
Labels? I assume the CE & plug are labelled when supplied but thought
maximum wattage also required.


As they are new and being placed on the Market dont they have to meet
the relevant Safety Standard and have a CE mark applied.

Well - that's the question.
If the components (the lead and the bulbholder) are themselves approved,
I'd always worked on the assumption that the whole thing was therefore
approved, given that it was assembled by somebody who knew one end of a
screwdriver from the other, and that the final test (plug it in, switch
it on) would only 'pass' if the wiring was done correctly.
I could, of course, be wrong g

PAT testing is not legally required for new goods. A safety assessment & CE declaration is for a lot of items.

The approvals cover what is supplied to you, not what you manufacture. You should go through the CE assessment process, in which you would address possible issues such as electrical safety, mechanical stability, flammability, suitability for various environments, toxicity of materials etc. With that done you may affix a CE sticker and sell it.

A retailer can of course place any conditions they like on their purchases from you. They may regadr a PAT test as an adequate substitute for your legal duties, though legally it would not be complaint with CE requirements. I hear informally that CE declarations are often abused.

The first obvious question that springs to mind is are your lamps class I or II? And are your shades lead soldered?


NT

On 02/02/2018 14:18, wrote:
On Friday, 2 February 2018 10:06:44 UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 09:26, Robert wrote:
On 02/02/2018 08:34, Robin wrote:
On 02/02/2018 08:05, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
Hi All
In another life I used to be involved with PAT testing / electrical
safety testing & quality management on telecoms equipment - so I
understand a bit about electrical safety testing.

Nowadays, I make stained-glass. One of the things I make is a
stained-glass lamp - consisting of a 3-sided or 4-sided 'shade',
mounted on a timber base.
Illumination is using a mains LED or CFL bulb, in a brass bayonet
socket.
The mains lead is bought in as a new, ready-made, CE-marked assembly,
with a switch, moulded-on plug and ferrule ends - which I wire into
the screw terminals in the bayonet socket. There's a cable clamp on
the mains lead where it leaves the timber base.

I've been selling these for a while - no problem.
I spoke to a potential retailer this afternoon (they're part of an
electrical wholesaler) who said that he wouldn't be able to sell
these lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

So - anybody out there know if this it true or not?

Short of connecting the L, N, E into the wrong terminals on the
bayonet socket (which would be noticed by me on 'final test' as the
bulb wouldn't light), I can't imagine a failure-mode that would make
the lamp unsafe.

I can (if necessary) buy a PAT tester, test each lamp and stick the
sticker on... but is it required?

Any ideas, please?
The country is Ireland, but I'm guessing that the same regulations
apply in the UK as well...
thanks


Impossible to prove a negative but I'm fairly confident there's no
legislation in the UK requiring a PAT test.Â* Certainly never seen them
on other "craft" lamps. I suspect you have met one of the many
varieties of non-tariff trade barrier - of the genus "it's not a legal
requirement but we won't sell it without one"

Is there no trade body of lamp makers which might know? The Dublin
equivalent of the Worshipful Company of Lightmongers??

PS
Labels? I assume the CE & plug are labelled when supplied but thought
maximum wattage also required.


As they are new and being placed on the Market dont they have to meet
the relevant Safety Standard and have a CE mark applied.

Well - that's the question.
If the components (the lead and the bulbholder) are themselves approved,
I'd always worked on the assumption that the whole thing was therefore
approved, given that it was assembled by somebody who knew one end of a
screwdriver from the other, and that the final test (plug it in, switch
it on) would only 'pass' if the wiring was done correctly.
I could, of course, be wrong g

PAT testing is not legally required for new goods. A safety assessment & CE declaration is for a lot of items.

Yes - that seems to be where this is heading..


The approvals cover what is supplied to you, not what you manufacture. You should go through the CE assessment process, in which you would address possible issues such as electrical safety, mechanical stability, flammability, suitability for various environments, toxicity of materials etc. With that done you may affix a CE sticker and sell it.

Just-about do-able, I suppose


A retailer can of course place any conditions they like on their purchases from you.

I think, in this particular person's case, it's a matter of 'got out of
the wrong side of the bed this morning...' g

They may regadr a PAT test as an adequate substitute for your legal
duties, though legally it would not be complaint with CE requirements. I
hear informally that CE declarations are often abused.

The first obvious question that springs to mind is are your lamps class I or II? And are your shades lead soldered?

Yes - lots of lead solder used in the construction of the lampshade.
"You are recommended not to chew this lampshade....."

As to the class I vs Class II - I did check the definitions, and I'm not
sure. Three-core mains cable, brass bayonet lampholder (earthed) screwed
to wooden lamp-base. Stained-glass shade, pegged and glued into wooden
lamp-base. I'm guessing Class I ?

On 02/02/2018 09:26, Robert wrote:
On 02/02/2018 08:34, Robin wrote:
On 02/02/2018 08:05, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
Hi All
In another life I used to be involved with PAT testing / electrical
safety testing & quality management on telecoms equipment - so I
understand a bit about electrical safety testing.

Nowadays, I make stained-glass. One of the things I make is a
stained-glass lamp - consisting of a 3-sided or 4-sided 'shade',
mounted on a timber base.
Illumination is using a mains LED or CFL bulb, in a brass bayonet
socket.
The mains lead is bought in as a new, ready-made, CE-marked assembly,
with a switch, moulded-on plug and ferrule ends - which I wire into
the screw terminals in the bayonet socket. There's a cable clamp on
the mains lead where it leaves the timber base.

I've been selling these for a while - no problem.
I spoke to a potential retailer this afternoon (they're part of an
electrical wholesaler) who said that he wouldn't be able to sell
these lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

So - anybody out there know if this it true or not?

Short of connecting the L, N, E into the wrong terminals on the
bayonet socket (which would be noticed by me on 'final test' as the
bulb wouldn't light), I can't imagine a failure-mode that would make
the lamp unsafe.

I can (if necessary) buy a PAT tester, test each lamp and stick the
sticker on... but is it required?

Any ideas, please?
The country is Ireland, but I'm guessing that the same regulations
apply in the UK as well...
thanks


Impossible to prove a negative but I'm fairly confident there's no
legislation in the UK requiring a PAT test.Â* Certainly never seen them
on other "craft" lamps. I suspect you have met one of the many
varieties of non-tariff trade barrier - of the genus "it's not a legal
requirement but we won't sell it without one"

Is there no trade body of lamp makers which might know? The Dublin
equivalent of the Worshipful Company of Lightmongers??

PS
Labels? I assume the CE & plug are labelled when supplied but thought
maximum wattage also required.


As they are new and being placed on the Market dont they have to meet
the relevant Safety Standard and have a CE mark applied.

I did mention the CE and plug labels which the OP said came with the
lead assembly. I don't know that the CE mark have to be applied more
than once.

As regards the "safety standard", the low voltage directive essentially
applies IEC standards which the OP manifestly needs to meet. But I
don't know that that means PAT testing is necessary (let alone sufficient).

You do remind me though that the Directive does require some
documentation to be kept. I've no idea where the regs relevant to the
OP are to be found but the Commission's guide to the Directive

https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/20341/attachments/1/translations/en/renditions/native

has a not so-little-list (pp66-67). The OP may well think it was
written with the likes of Bosch, Philips, Siemens etc in mind; I
couldn't possibly comment.





--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:26:17 +0000, Robert wrote:

I've been selling these for a while - no problem. I spoke to a
potential retailer this afternoon (they're part of an electrical
wholesaler) who said that he wouldn't be able to sell these lamps

because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

The requirements for PAT are some what flexable. Some thing that is
constantly being moved, unplugged plugged etc etc it's probably wise
to PAT every year or really heavy more frequently. Something that
just sits there you could argue that every 5 years is fine.

But PAT only aaplies to stuff in service. Buy something new you don't
have to PAT it before putting it into service.

As they are new and being placed on the Market dont they have to meet
the relevant Safety Standard and have a CE mark applied.

This is what applies to new goods. Also the labeling, that annoying
flag on the flex at the plug end telling you the colours and use, in
the case of a lamp the maximum wattage of bulb and how close the lamp
cab be to other objects and I suspect that has to where someone
changng the bulb will see it, a ratings plate (voltage, max load,
AC/DC etc).

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 02/02/2018 08:34, Robin wrote:
On 02/02/2018 08:05, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
Hi All
In another life I used to be involved with PAT testing / electrical
safety testing & quality management on telecoms equipment - so I
understand a bit about electrical safety testing.

Nowadays, I make stained-glass. One of the things I make is a
stained-glass lamp - consisting of a 3-sided or 4-sided 'shade',
mounted on a timber base.
Illumination is using a mains LED or CFL bulb, in a brass bayonet socket.
The mains lead is bought in as a new, ready-made, CE-marked assembly,
with a switch, moulded-on plug and ferrule ends - which I wire into
the screw terminals in the bayonet socket. There's a cable clamp on
the mains lead where it leaves the timber base.

I've been selling these for a while - no problem.
I spoke to a potential retailer this afternoon (they're part of an
electrical wholesaler) who said that he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

So - anybody out there know if this it true or not?

Short of connecting the L, N, E into the wrong terminals on the
bayonet socket (which would be noticed by me on 'final test' as the
bulb wouldn't light), I can't imagine a failure-mode that would make
the lamp unsafe.

I can (if necessary) buy a PAT tester, test each lamp and stick the
sticker on... but is it required?

Any ideas, please?
The country is Ireland, but I'm guessing that the same regulations
apply in the UK as well...
thanks


Impossible to prove a negative but I'm fairly confident there's no
legislation in the UK requiring a PAT test.Â* Certainly never seen them
on other "craft" lamps. I suspect you have met one of the many varieties
of non-tariff trade barrier - of the genus "it's not a legal requirement
but we won't sell it without one"

Is there no trade body of lamp makers which might know? The Dublin
equivalent of the Worshipful Company of Lightmongers??

PS
Labels? I assume the CE & plug are labelled when supplied but thought
maximum wattage also required.


HI Robin
Thanks - the more I think about it, the more its seems like a simple
case of "don't want to.." on behalf of the retailer.
The lead assembly has all the usual certification marks moulded into the
plug and the torpedo switch, the brass & ceramic lampholder has a
maker's name and part number.

I guess, being pedantic, there's nothing to stop some dingbat from
wiring the live to the brass lampholder, but, if you did that, I doublt
that the lamp would light - so it'd be noticed.

On labelling - I guess it'd do no harm to have a little sticker on the
shade that says 'Use CFL or LED bulb only' - I could do that.

Thanks for the thoughts..
Adrian

On 02/02/2018 09:52, Adrian Brentnall wrote:


On labelling - I guess it'd do no harm to have a little sticker on the
shade that says 'Use CFL or LED bulb only' - I could do that.


Ahem, I think you may need to think of facing the consumer safety
inquisition (complete with comfy chair) asking you eg

- "what if the user inserts a 1000W LED bulb like what they may market
one day?"

- "where's your evidence that consumers distinguish between bulbs and
won't insert a 150W GLS?"

I suggest you pick a bulb (say 25W?); test the lamps by leaving them
running, in a room at (say) 30 degrees; check that no part of the lamp
is dangerously hot (sorry, can't recall - if I ever knew - what that
means!); and label the lamps "maximum 25W (or whatever)". And document
it all.

May seem a bit much but remember, no price is too high to save the life
(or burnt finger) of one EU consumer.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 02/02/2018 10:34, Robin wrote:
On 02/02/2018 09:52, Adrian Brentnall wrote:


On labelling - I guess it'd do no harm to have a little sticker on the
shade that says 'Use CFL or LED bulb only' - I could do that.


Ahem, I think you may need to think of facing the consumer safety
inquisition (complete with comfy chair) asking you eg

-Â*Â*Â* "what if the user inserts a 1000W LED bulb like what they may
market one day?"

-Â*Â*Â* "where's your evidence that consumers distinguish between bulbs and
won't insert a 150W GLS?"

I suggest you pick a bulb (say 25W?); test the lamps by leaving them
running, in a room at (say) 30 degrees; check that no part of the lamp
is dangerously hot (sorry, can't recall - if I ever knew - what that
means!); and label the lamps "maximum 25W (or whatever)".Â* And document
it all.

May seem a bit much but remember, no price is too high to save the life
(or burnt finger) of one EU consumer.


Hmm - I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition grin

The lamps aren't really designed for incandescent bulbs - they will get
hot! - I suppose a label that says 'Max 15w incandescent or 40w (say)
led / cfl' could cover it...

There was a documentary about air-crash investigation some years back -
a passenger jet had crashed on landing because somebody had fitted an
hydraulic non-return valve back to front (after going to the trouble of
making up two adapters in order to make it fit the wrong way round).
The man investigating said "We can design for idiots - but not for
bl**dy idiots" g

On 02/02/2018 12:02, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

The lamps aren't really designed for incandescent bulbs - they will get
hot! - I suppose a label that says 'Max 15w incandescent or 40w (say)
led / cfl' could cover it...

40W led? That's equivalent to a 250W incandescent!

You may have to be a bit careful how you word your instruction leaflet
or sticker.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 12:02:48 +0000
Adrian Brentnall wrote:

The lamps aren't really designed for incandescent bulbs - they will
get hot! - I suppose a label that says 'Max 15w incandescent or 40w
(say) led / cfl' could cover it...

Speaking of which, a "do not cover" sticker should cover it. :-)

Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:26:36 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Although PAT testing of second hand items is fairly common, new items
are not normally tested.

PAT testing is "in service testing" [IEE ], therefore it does not
apply to unused kit that has yet to be brought into operation.

When I was involved, testing had to take into account the actual
environment the units were used in.

Try looking at other bits of mains kit the vendor has for sale, I
suspect that the request was made on the whim of an overkeen junior.

If low value items are on sale and "tested", it would be interesting
to make a purchase and examine the records for said item.



Should I produce a light from scratch, with a standard size BC socket,
I would not and could not sell it as anything constructed needs to
have live terminals that are inaccessable to anyone without some form
of tool.

As BC sockets have been with us for years, we tolerate them in the
same way as cigarettes and motor vehicles.

BC sockets have been the cause of a few deaths, the publicised ones
being due to bulb manufacturers failing to cut the tails of their
bulbs after they were soldered to the end caps.

AB

On 02/02/2018 09:57, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:26:36 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Although PAT testing of second hand items is fairly common, new items
are not normally tested.

PAT testing is "in service testing" [IEE ], therefore it does not
apply to unused kit that has yet to be brought into operation.

That's what I thought.
Perhaps he's using 'PAT testing' as shorthand for 'safety-testing in
final production' or somesuch...?


When I was involved, testing had to take into account the actual
environment the units were used in.

Yes


Try looking at other bits of mains kit the vendor has for sale, I
suspect that the request was made on the whim of an overkeen junior.

He's more of a senior than a junior g
Apparently the man who does all of their lighting repairs for them.


If low value items are on sale and "tested", it would be interesting
to make a purchase and examine the records for said item.

Everything in the shop is new - so no second-hand ('should have been
retested') kit.

On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 10:12:25 +0000, Adrian Brentnall
wrote:

On 02/02/2018 09:57, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:26:36 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Although PAT testing of second hand items is fairly common, new items
are not normally tested.

PAT testing is "in service testing" [IEE ], therefore it does not
apply to unused kit that has yet to be brought into operation.

That's what I thought.
Perhaps he's using 'PAT testing' as shorthand for 'safety-testing in
final production' or somesuch...?


When I was involved, testing had to take into account the actual
environment the units were used in.

Yes


Try looking at other bits of mains kit the vendor has for sale, I
suspect that the request was made on the whim of an overkeen junior.

He's more of a senior than a junior g
Apparently the man who does all of their lighting repairs for them.


If low value items are on sale and "tested", it would be interesting
to make a purchase and examine the records for said item.

Everything in the shop is new - so no second-hand ('should have been
retested') kit.

Yes but he is saying that your new stuff needs testing. One therefore
assumes everything on sale is tested also.

If all items are tested they should have documentation and a unique
identifier.

Does he sell neon mains testing screwdrivers BTW? :-)

AB

On 02/02/2018 10:20, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

Does he sell neon mains testing screwdrivers BTW? :-)


I purchased a couple of neon screwdrivers from ebay recently. It wasn't
for the mains testing functionality, which I'd never use, but because
the picture showed a long thin blade insulated down to near the tip.

What turned up was a heap of **** and nothing like the picture shown in
the ebay listing.

The neon, spring and metal cap came as a DIY kit of parts. I suspect it
comes this way as the cap doesn't hold the neon and spring into handle
of the screwdriver too well and is likely to fall off. It is possible to
install the neon module the wrong way around so that it doesn't make
contact with the metal shaft of the screwdriver.

The blade was only insulated for less than half its length.

Rather than being thin the blade it flared out close to the tip and I
suspect wouldn't fit into the terminal holes in most/all electrical sockets.

Even considering the dubious nature of these types of mains testers
these examples take safety to a new level of uncertainty.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

In article ,
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:26:36 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Although PAT testing of second hand items is fairly common, new items
are not normally tested.

[Snip]
I bought some "disco" lights from CPC a few years ago and, out of interest,
PATed them. Two passed and one failed on the earth bond bit. I didn't send
it back - simply sorted it.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 02/02/2018 09:26, Andy Burns wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Thanks Andy
It does seem a bit strange.
I can buy me a little PAT tester (probably 2nd-hand) - and do a formal
test, and stick a sticker on the lamp - but then (to be strictly
correct) you're into the calibration thing, which carries additional costs.
Bit of a slippery slope, perhaps?

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 10:08:54 AM UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 09:26, Andy Burns wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Thanks Andy
It does seem a bit strange.
I can buy me a little PAT tester (probably 2nd-hand) - and do a formal
test, and stick a sticker on the lamp - but then (to be strictly
correct) you're into the calibration thing, which carries additional costs.
Bit of a slippery slope, perhaps?

The more important part of a PAT test is the viaual inspection. Either way, to carry one out and for it to have any weight, you would need to have a City & Guilds in PAT testing (at least that was the requirement about 10 - 15 years ago when I did it (one day course (not even a day if I recall correctly).

Cheers

Chris

In article ,
wrote:
On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 10:08:54 AM UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 09:26, Andy Burns wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these lamps because 'They would need PAT
testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready
PAT tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the
box, upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT
sticker on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Thanks Andy It does seem a bit strange. I can buy me a little PAT
tester (probably 2nd-hand) - and do a formal test, and stick a sticker
on the lamp - but then (to be strictly correct) you're into the
calibration thing, which carries additional costs. Bit of a slippery
slope, perhaps?

The more important part of a PAT test is the viaual inspection. Either
way, to carry one out and for it to have any weight, you would need to
have a City & Guilds in PAT testing (at least that was the requirement
about 10 - 15 years ago when I did it (one day course (not even a day if
I recall correctly).

I have a piece of paper that says I attended a PAT course, but there's
nothing about City & Guilds on it.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 04:07:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 10:08:54 AM UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 09:26, Andy Burns wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Thanks Andy
It does seem a bit strange.
I can buy me a little PAT tester (probably 2nd-hand) - and do a formal
test, and stick a sticker on the lamp - but then (to be strictly
correct) you're into the calibration thing, which carries additional costs.
Bit of a slippery slope, perhaps?

The more important part of a PAT test is the viaual inspection. Either way, to carry one out and for it to have any weight, you would need to have a City & Guilds in PAT testing (at least that was the requirement about 10 - 15 years ago when I did it (one day course (not even a day if I recall correctly).

Cheers

Chris

On the first point, correct. This will pick nearly every fault up in
most circumstances.

As far as the second goes, Weight with who?

Can you justify that statement?

AB

On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 6:05:57 PM UTC, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 04:07:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 10:08:54 AM UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 09:26, Andy Burns wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:

he wouldn't be able to sell these
lamps because 'They would need PAT testing, first'

I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

I think the retailer is over-egging the PAT pudding.

Thanks Andy
It does seem a bit strange.
I can buy me a little PAT tester (probably 2nd-hand) - and do a formal
test, and stick a sticker on the lamp - but then (to be strictly
correct) you're into the calibration thing, which carries additional costs.
Bit of a slippery slope, perhaps?

The more important part of a PAT test is the viaual inspection. Either way, to carry one out and for it to have any weight, you would need to have a City & Guilds in PAT testing (at least that was the requirement about 10 - 15 years ago when I did it (one day course (not even a day if I recall correctly).

Cheers

Chris

On the first point, correct. This will pick nearly every fault up in
most circumstances.

As far as the second goes, Weight with who?

Can you justify that statement?

AB

I can't justify it with chapter & verse, but the day something one has PAT tested catches fire the next week, HSE or someone might well come looking for your qualification(s) and evidence of (public liability??) insurance (which dependiing on the size of the fire, you might need to claim on (but perhaps only if you were held to be negligent?)

When I say "you", no critiscism of you in particular is expressed or implied, I am sure you know what you are doing with electricery.

Such concerns are one reason I will be having my CU changes done professionally. I could probably hire some test equipment and follow the guides in the WiKi, but I still don't have the bits of paper, membership of prefessional bodies, or insurance.

On 02/02/2018 09:26, Andy Burns wrote:

snip
I can only think of one device I've purchased new, that came ready PAT
tested (an oscilloscope scope, the nice reseller had opened the box,
upgraded the firmware, included a UK mains lead and stuck a PAT sticker
on it).

Yep, same here and I suspect it's probably the same UK distributor of a
certain Chinese 'Scope

I thought it was a nice gesture, though they were probably just covering
themselves

Lee wrote:

Yep, same here and I suspect it's probably the same UK distributor of a
certain Chinese 'Scope

I thought it was a nice gesture, though they were probably just covering
themselves

Yes I regarded it as a nice touch, but not necessary. I see that now
they even unlock the bonus features for you ...

"Buy a new Rigol DS1000Z series oscilloscope and get ALL software
options ... (deeper memory, record & replay, advanced trigger functions
and serial-bus analysis)
.... for FREE!"

In article ,
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
I can (if necessary) buy a PAT tester, test each lamp and stick the
sticker on... but is it required?

More to it than that. You need to be qualified to apply that sticker. ;-)

--
*Change is inevitable ... except from vending machines *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 02/02/2018 10:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
I can (if necessary) buy a PAT tester, test each lamp and stick the
sticker on... but is it required?

More to it than that. You need to be qualified to apply that sticker. ;-)


I could probably win that particular argument g
- but I do see that some PAT testers come with a "Learn thyself PAT
testing" DVD, complete with a final exam to do / pass...

Dredging back a few years to when I used to get paid for asking these
difficult questions - probably creating a Test Procedure document
detailing the who, what, when, where would cover it.
Then there's the thorny issue of calibrating the tester - which could be
satisfied by a couple of 'just pass / just fail' test boxes - but then
you've got to calibrate them... and so it goes on....

On 02/02/2018 10:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
I can (if necessary) buy a PAT tester, test each lamp and stick the
sticker on... but is it required?

More to it than that. You need to be qualified to apply that sticker. ;-)

Not qualified just competent.

On 02/02/2018 18:40, Robert wrote:
On 02/02/2018 10:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Adrian Brentnall wrote:
I can (if necessary) buy a PAT tester, test each lamp and stick the
sticker on... but is it required?

More to it than that. You need to be qualified to apply that sticker. ;-)

Not qualified just competent.

Even better! g
I think I could successfully argue that one.

In article ,
Robert wrote:
On 02/02/2018 10:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
I can (if necessary) buy a PAT tester, test each lamp and stick the
sticker on... but is it required?

More to it than that. You need to be qualified to apply that sticker. ;-)

Not qualified just competent.

I had to go on a course. Which work paid for. Didn't really learn anything
- so must have been competent before.

--
*There are 3 kinds of people: those who can count & those who can't.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 02/02/2018 08:05, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Short of connecting the L, N, E into the wrong terminals on the bayonet
socket (which would be noticed by me on 'final test' as the bulb
wouldn't light), I can't imagine a failure-mode that would make the lamp
unsafe.

No earth connected at all?


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 02/02/2018 11:01, alan_m wrote:
On 02/02/2018 08:05, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Short of connecting the L, N, E into the wrong terminals on the
bayonet socket (which would be noticed by me on 'final test' as the
bulb wouldn't light), I can't imagine a failure-mode that would make
the lamp unsafe.

No earth connected at all?


I guess...

To reach the brass bulbholder you've got to reach down past the bulb.
I guess "Unplug from mains before changing bulb" would do it..

The shade itself is "exposed metalwork" - but it's on brass legs that
are glued into the woodwork lam-base (so insulated) - and get no nearer
than an inch or so to the brass lampholder.

If absolutely vital, a wire could be run from the metalwork of the shade
to the brass lampholder.....?

On Friday, 2 February 2018 12:15:50 UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 11:01, alan_m wrote:
On 02/02/2018 08:05, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Short of connecting the L, N, E into the wrong terminals on the
bayonet socket (which would be noticed by me on 'final test' as the
bulb wouldn't light), I can't imagine a failure-mode that would make
the lamp unsafe.

No earth connected at all?


I guess...

To reach the brass bulbholder you've got to reach down past the bulb.
I guess "Unplug from mains before changing bulb" would do it..

The shade itself is "exposed metalwork" - but it's on brass legs that
are glued into the woodwork lam-base (so insulated) - and get no nearer
than an inch or so to the brass lampholder.

If absolutely vital, a wire could be run from the metalwork of the shade
to the brass lampholder.....?

I'm wondering if your appliance conforms to either class I or class II requirements.
Written instructions on changing bulbs is required. Ditto rewiring plugs. Ditto max wattage.


NT

On 02/02/2018 14:27, wrote:
snip

Written instructions on changing bulbs is required.


I've never seen those. Even with stuff from Ikea which requires some
assembly they just show a bulb heading in the right direction with
nothing more - no indication as to which way to screw it, no warning to
unplug first, no warning that the old one may be hot, ....


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Friday, 2 February 2018 16:25:07 UTC, Robin wrote:
On 02/02/2018 14:27, tabbypurr wrote:
snip

Written instructions on changing bulbs is required.


I've never seen those. Even with stuff from Ikea which requires some
assembly they just show a bulb heading in the right direction with
nothing more - no indication as to which way to screw it, no warning to
unplug first, no warning that the old one may be hot, ....

more fool them

On 02/02/2018 14:27, wrote:
On Friday, 2 February 2018 12:15:50 UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 11:01, alan_m wrote:
On 02/02/2018 08:05, Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Short of connecting the L, N, E into the wrong terminals on the
bayonet socket (which would be noticed by me on 'final test' as the
bulb wouldn't light), I can't imagine a failure-mode that would make
the lamp unsafe.

No earth connected at all?


I guess...

To reach the brass bulbholder you've got to reach down past the bulb.
I guess "Unplug from mains before changing bulb" would do it..

The shade itself is "exposed metalwork" - but it's on brass legs that
are glued into the woodwork lam-base (so insulated) - and get no nearer
than an inch or so to the brass lampholder.

If absolutely vital, a wire could be run from the metalwork of the shade
to the brass lampholder.....?

I'm wondering if your appliance conforms to either class I or class II requirements.

Where would that leave me?

Written instructions on changing bulbs is required.

OK

Ditto rewiring plugs.

Moulded-on plug - does that still apply?

Ditto max wattage.

Fair enough.
Thanks
Adrian

On Friday, 2 February 2018 16:43:10 UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 14:27, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 2 February 2018 12:15:50 UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 02/02/2018 11:01, alan_m wrote:
On 02/02/2018 08:05, Adrian Brentnall wrote:


Short of connecting the L, N, E into the wrong terminals on the
bayonet socket (which would be noticed by me on 'final test' as the
bulb wouldn't light), I can't imagine a failure-mode that would make
the lamp unsafe.

No earth connected at all?


I guess...

To reach the brass bulbholder you've got to reach down past the bulb.
I guess "Unplug from mains before changing bulb" would do it..

The shade itself is "exposed metalwork" - but it's on brass legs that
are glued into the woodwork lam-base (so insulated) - and get no nearer
than an inch or so to the brass lampholder.

If absolutely vital, a wire could be run from the metalwork of the shade
to the brass lampholder.....?

I'm wondering if your appliance conforms to either class I or class II requirements.

Where would that leave me?

needing to determine if it complies with class I. Or legally vulnerable.

Written instructions on changing bulbs is required.

OK

Ditto rewiring plugs.

Moulded-on plug - does that still apply?

yes, it's in case the user fits a new plug.

Ditto max wattage.

Fair enough.
Thanks
Adrian

and caution to not cover the bulb I guess.


NT

On Friday, 2 February 2018 08:05:42 UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
The mains lead is bought in as a new, ready-made, CE-marked assembly,
with a switch, moulded-on plug and ferrule ends - which I wire into the
screw terminals in the bayonet socket. There's a cable clamp on the
mains lead where it leaves the timber base.

Several fault possibilities including the ones that your ready-made CE-marked assembly is actually faulty.

As well as insulation testing LN-E you should probably also check that the switch, if single pole, is actually wired in the L.

For your own safety, "final (functional) test" on the mains should be preceeded by safety testing.

Owain

On 02/02/2018 11:24, wrote:
On Friday, 2 February 2018 08:05:42 UTC, Adrian Brentnall wrote:
The mains lead is bought in as a new, ready-made, CE-marked assembly,
with a switch, moulded-on plug and ferrule ends - which I wire into the
screw terminals in the bayonet socket. There's a cable clamp on the
mains lead where it leaves the timber base.

Several fault possibilities including the ones that your ready-made CE-marked assembly is actually faulty.

Mmm - but how far back up the chain do you go?


As well as insulation testing LN-E you should probably also check that the switch, if single pole, is actually wired in the L.

Understand the theory - but "shouldn't" the user disconnect from the
mains before changing the bulb? - I could certainly add a label to that
effect


For your own safety, "final (functional) test" on the mains should be preceeded by safety testing.

All depends how much faith ( = defence, m'Lud!) one can put in the
incoming assemblies, I suppose.
Thanks
Adrian


Owain