Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

On 16/01/2018 17:31, harry wrote:
Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

What an odd idea. Make a super-duper LED lamp that emulates a pre-WW2
incandescent.

--
Max Demian

On 16/01/2018 18:49, Max Demian wrote:
On 16/01/2018 17:31, harry wrote:
Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

What an odd idea. Make a super-duper LED lamp that emulates a pre-WW2
incandescent.

Our local has them and they look really good.

Bill

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
news
On 16/01/2018 18:49, Max Demian wrote:
On 16/01/2018 17:31, harry wrote:
Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

What an odd idea. Make a super-duper LED lamp that emulates a pre-WW2
incandescent.

Our local has them and they look really good.

They look really ****ing stupid IMO.

I much prefer the way the Hues do it.

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 18:49:44 +0000, Max Demian wrote:

https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

What an odd idea. Make a super-duper LED lamp that emulates a pre-WW2
incandescent.

Well the "retro" type are available but the basic collection of
straight filament sticks are (mostly) the most effcient domestic
light bulbs out there at 100 lm/W. They are my bulb of choice now,
provided the price is right (£3 ish). Not had any failures in the
aproximate 9 months since starting to use 'em. Been disappointed with
the life of chip based LED bulbs.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 16/01/2018 17:31, harry wrote:
Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

been available for quite a while.

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
news
On 16/01/2018 18:49, Max Demian wrote:
On 16/01/2018 17:31, harry wrote:
Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

What an odd idea. Make a super-duper LED lamp that emulates a pre-WW2
incandescent.

Our local has them and they look really good.

They look really ****ing stupid IMO.

I much prefer the way the Hues do it.


I doubt you will like these then.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391928013885
I have just ordered three B22 types for my outside lanterns.

Recommended by Big Clive.




--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 7:32:25 PM UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 18:49:44 +0000, Max Demian wrote:

https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

What an odd idea. Make a super-duper LED lamp that emulates a pre-WW2
incandescent.

Well the "retro" type are available but the basic collection of
straight filament sticks are (mostly) the most effcient domestic
light bulbs out there at 100 lm/W. They are my bulb of choice now,
provided the price is right (£3 ish). Not had any failures in the
aproximate 9 months since starting to use 'em. Been disappointed with
the life of chip based LED bulbs.

--
Cheers
Dave.

can you post a link to a lamp you are using Dave?
thanks

Max Demian wrote:

On 16/01/2018 17:31, harry wrote:
Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

What an odd idea. Make a super-duper LED lamp that emulates a pre-WW2
incandescent.

I think the important feature is not the shape of the filament, which in
many applications you can't see, but the wide angle of illumination,
which often works better in light fittings designed for traditonal
incandescent lamps.
--

Roger Hayter

On 16/01/2018 18:49, Max Demian wrote:
On 16/01/2018 17:31, harry wrote:
Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

What an odd idea. Make a super-duper LED lamp that emulates a pre-WW2
incandescent.

I find its actually a very good idea - I use them almost exclusively.
The main attraction (other than being nicer to look at in applications
where you can see the bulb) is the 360 degree radiation pattern, that
closely resembles a GLS lamp. Hence any fittings that use the lamp cap
down or the whole lamp side on, still give the intended illumination.

There is a second significant advantage, in that the strips are
typically arranged into relatively high voltage chains such that they
can be be wired in sets of 4 directly across the mains with no need to
use dropper capacitors. Hence better reliability and less temperature
sensitive ageing.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 16/01/2018 17:31, harry wrote:
Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

I would like to take the opportunity to thank harry for posting
something actually on topic for once!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:00:09 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

I find its actually a very good idea - I use them almost exclusively.
The main attraction (other than being nicer to look at in applications
where you can see the bulb) is the 360 degree radiation pattern, that
closely resembles a GLS lamp. Hence any fittings that use the lamp cap
down or the whole lamp side on, still give the intended illumination.


Does GLS have a standard size? I have one of these LED filament bulbs
in my sitting room but the diffuser has a 65mm hole and won't fit
over the bulb.

Any ideas for an LED with equivalent light output in a smaller bulb?

AJH

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:00:09 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

====snip====


There is a second significant advantage, in that the strips are
typically arranged into relatively high voltage chains such that they
can be be wired in sets of 4 directly across the mains with no need to
use dropper capacitors. Hence better reliability and less temperature
sensitive ageing.

I'm afraid that's most definitely untrue. The closer the 'filament'
drive voltage rating approaches the supply voltage, the greater their
sensitivity to supply voltage variations becomes in regard of their
forward voltage drop conductivity.

LEDs can't be driven directly from a constant voltage source without
risk of thermal runaway when being driven close to their operational
limits typical of GLS applications. They need some form of current
limiting whether a simple capacitive dropper that drops 30 to 70% of the
supply voltage or else a more sophisticated electronic ballast that
supplies a more tightly controlled constant current optimised for the
LEDs used in the filament strings or the COB array.

Since my commissioning tests on each new LED GLS lamp I've purchased
during the past 5 years or so have revealed a higher consumption than
that claimed for these lamps in every case, I've finally come to the
conclusion that it's a consequence of meeting a minimum Lumens output
(typically a 60W equivalent of 810Lm) at the bottom of the 220 to 240
volt mains voltage range when powered from a 240v UK supply.

The first of the latest "High Efficiency" 68LPW GLS "60W equivalent" LES
lamps bought from Asda about 5 years ago claimed a consumption wattage
rating of 12W. Testing revealed that it was actually taking 14W but I
wasn't bothered too much about that since it certainly provided far more
light output than the 20W CFL "60W equivalent" it replaced.

The only downside being that it was rather heavier than the replaced CFL
due to the use of a meaty well engineered finned heatsink which placed an
extra burden on the height adjustable pendant luminaire over the dining
table.

It was eventually replaced a year or two later with an even more
efficient (and lighter) 81LPW "60W equivalent" LED with a claimed
consumption of just 10W which measured pretty close to 12W. Again, the
extra consumption wasn't an issue (but I was beginning to see a pattern
emerging). The Asda branded lamp (part number: LDA12WE27COA3000K)[1]
landed up in my Anglepoise desk lamp where it remains to this day.
Interestingly, a recent test revealed a consumption figure of 13.5W which
most likely was the result of the voltage being lower this time round
compared to the original test voltage condition some 5 years ago.

More recently, I've seen the same sort of inflated measured consumption
versus the rated consumption with the Poundland lamps - 6W versus 5.5 for
the SBC 470Lm lamps and the later 510Lm versions. Even the three quid
Home & Bargain 12W 1500Lm (125LPW) LES "100W equivalent" showed an
inflated wattage reading of about 13.5W when I tested it before
installing it into the bathroom light fitting which had housed the last
remaining incandescent GLS lamp.

[1] Curiously, this Asda branded lamp quotes 50/60Hz in addition to the
220 to 240 volt supply @67mA (implying a PF of 0.85) which strongly
suggests an electronic ballast more sophisticated than a mere dropper
capacitor.

However, the 220 to 240 volt range seems to be more in keeping with UK
and European supply voltages where 50Hz is the standard frequency of
supply so it's just possible that the mention of 60Hz may simply be a
matter of mislabelling (possibly a "force of habit" error).

The only other place where 60Hz is standard outside of the USA that
comes to mind is Japan (well, roughly half of Japan - the other half does
use 50Hz) so it seems a little unusual that a lamp designed to operate in
the range of 220 to 240 should also include the 60Hz option.

Since ICBA to find a couple of 7AH SLAs to black start my spare APC
SmartUPS700 in 60Hz mode, this claim of 60Hz compatibility is going to
remain untested for the foreseeable future.

--
Johnny B Good

If it has a global light pattern then its sorely needed.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Max Demian" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 16/01/2018 17:31, harry wrote:
Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

What an odd idea. Make a super-duper LED lamp that emulates a pre-WW2
incandescent.

--
Max Demian

One annoying thing for those with some sight are the new flashing globe
beacons on crossings. The old globe flashing could be seen with poor
eyesight but the new ones appear to be just a globe with some orange leds
around the middle, and its hard to see with poor sight.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Bill Wright" wrote in message
news
On 16/01/2018 18:49, Max Demian wrote:
On 16/01/2018 17:31, harry wrote:
Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

What an odd idea. Make a super-duper LED lamp that emulates a pre-WW2
incandescent.

Our local has them and they look really good.

They look really ****ing stupid IMO.

I much prefer the way the Hues do it.

On Wednesday, 17 January 2018 04:55:22 UTC, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:00:09 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

====snip====


There is a second significant advantage, in that the strips are
typically arranged into relatively high voltage chains such that they
can be be wired in sets of 4 directly across the mains with no need to
use dropper capacitors. Hence better reliability and less temperature
sensitive ageing.

I'm afraid that's most definitely untrue. The closer the 'filament'
drive voltage rating approaches the supply voltage, the greater their
sensitivity to supply voltage variations becomes in regard of their
forward voltage drop conductivity.

LEDs can't be driven directly from a constant voltage source without
risk of thermal runaway when being driven close to their operational
limits typical of GLS applications. They need some form of current
limiting whether a simple capacitive dropper that drops 30 to 70% of the
supply voltage or else a more sophisticated electronic ballast that
supplies a more tightly controlled constant current optimised for the
LEDs used in the filament strings or the COB array.

Since my commissioning tests on each new LED GLS lamp I've purchased
during the past 5 years or so have revealed a higher consumption than
that claimed for these lamps in every case, I've finally come to the
conclusion that it's a consequence of meeting a minimum Lumens output
(typically a 60W equivalent of 810Lm) at the bottom of the 220 to 240
volt mains voltage range when powered from a 240v UK supply.

The first of the latest "High Efficiency" 68LPW GLS "60W equivalent" LES
lamps bought from Asda about 5 years ago claimed a consumption wattage
rating of 12W. Testing revealed that it was actually taking 14W but I
wasn't bothered too much about that since it certainly provided far more
light output than the 20W CFL "60W equivalent" it replaced.

The only downside being that it was rather heavier than the replaced CFL
due to the use of a meaty well engineered finned heatsink which placed an
extra burden on the height adjustable pendant luminaire over the dining
table.

It was eventually replaced a year or two later with an even more
efficient (and lighter) 81LPW "60W equivalent" LED with a claimed
consumption of just 10W which measured pretty close to 12W. Again, the
extra consumption wasn't an issue (but I was beginning to see a pattern
emerging). The Asda branded lamp (part number: LDA12WE27COA3000K)[1]
landed up in my Anglepoise desk lamp where it remains to this day.
Interestingly, a recent test revealed a consumption figure of 13.5W which
most likely was the result of the voltage being lower this time round
compared to the original test voltage condition some 5 years ago.

More recently, I've seen the same sort of inflated measured consumption
versus the rated consumption with the Poundland lamps - 6W versus 5.5 for
the SBC 470Lm lamps and the later 510Lm versions. Even the three quid
Home & Bargain 12W 1500Lm (125LPW) LES "100W equivalent" showed an
inflated wattage reading of about 13.5W when I tested it before
installing it into the bathroom light fitting which had housed the last
remaining incandescent GLS lamp.

[1] Curiously, this Asda branded lamp quotes 50/60Hz in addition to the
220 to 240 volt supply @67mA (implying a PF of 0.85) which strongly
suggests an electronic ballast more sophisticated than a mere dropper
capacitor.

However, the 220 to 240 volt range seems to be more in keeping with UK
and European supply voltages where 50Hz is the standard frequency of
supply so it's just possible that the mention of 60Hz may simply be a
matter of mislabelling (possibly a "force of habit" error).

The only other place where 60Hz is standard outside of the USA that
comes to mind is Japan (well, roughly half of Japan - the other half does
use 50Hz) so it seems a little unusual that a lamp designed to operate in
the range of 220 to 240 should also include the 60Hz option.

Since ICBA to find a couple of 7AH SLAs to black start my spare APC
SmartUPS700 in 60Hz mode, this claim of 60Hz compatibility is going to
remain untested for the foreseeable future.

sounds like you're not up to date with the latest generation of LED lighting drivers. Not finding the link but basically they switch which LEDs are on according to the momentary mains voltage.


NT

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 09:31:25 -0800 (PST), harry wrote:

Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

'Filament' LEDs are, AIUI, COB and are probably the least inefficient LEDs
generally available. Morrisons have (had?) some 6W, 800lm, 'GLS' B22 lamps,
unfortunately ~3000K (I prefer 4000K+) for a fiver each. I have one and it
is good. I've not checked the actual wattage - OK, just for you:
5W is flickering 4 - 5 and is just under %W based on VAxPF
15W, 1500lm is similarly marginally low
60W incandesent shows 60W - surprising as the voltage is ~245.

5 years ago I wouln't go below 80lm/W; 3 years ago I considered only
=100lm/W, with exception for GU10 for desk and bench lights that don't
spend long on.

Ikea changed to all Led, but those are worse than my benchmark 5 years ago!

BTW, I bought from Ledlam some lamps that have COB on ceramic blades. The
blades are in a triangel and very translucent, with the 'back' of each blade
shining throght th gap between the other two, so near enough 360 deg.
The 3W is 320lm and the 5W is 600lm - this was 3 years ago! How progress
goes - not!
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On 17/01/2018 04:55, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:00:09 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

====snip====


There is a second significant advantage, in that the strips are
typically arranged into relatively high voltage chains such that they
can be be wired in sets of 4 directly across the mains with no need to
use dropper capacitors. Hence better reliability and less temperature
sensitive ageing.

I'm afraid that's most definitely untrue.

Yup, actually I would agree with that ;-)

I am both over simplifying and typing faster than I was thinking!

They do of course include current limitation - and that quite often is a
capacitive dropper. However what I was getting at was that they often
have less "complicated" drivers - and can quite often get away without
using electrolytic caps commonly found in many switching supplies, which
seems to be the weak spot of many.

The closer the 'filament'
drive voltage rating approaches the supply voltage, the greater their
sensitivity to supply voltage variations becomes in regard of their
forward voltage drop conductivity.

LEDs can't be driven directly from a constant voltage source without
risk of thermal runaway when being driven close to their operational
limits typical of GLS applications. They need some form of current
limiting whether a simple capacitive dropper that drops 30 to 70% of the
supply voltage or else a more sophisticated electronic ballast that
supplies a more tightly controlled constant current optimised for the
LEDs used in the filament strings or the COB array.

Many use a (simple) RC network as a current limit, usually then feeding
a bridge rectumfrier. The individual strips usually have a forward
voltage drop of around 60V. Often strung with a couple in series
(paralleled up on the higher wattage versions). That means you are
dropping around half the voltage in the supply. Many seem to slightly
under run the filaments (although that may be a reflection of the
voltage range they are designed to cover).

(personally I am less worried by a small loss of efficiency fron under
running given the relatively low power anyway such that the gains are
fractional watts)

Since my commissioning tests on each new LED GLS lamp I've purchased
during the past 5 years or so have revealed a higher consumption than
that claimed for these lamps in every case, I've finally come to the
conclusion that it's a consequence of meeting a minimum Lumens output
(typically a 60W equivalent of 810Lm) at the bottom of the 220 to 240
volt mains voltage range when powered from a 240v UK supply.

Most of the "60W" ones I have claim 740lm IIRC. Oddly I noticed some
recently where they lumens figure was actually lower on the daylight
version.

The first of the latest "High Efficiency" 68LPW GLS "60W equivalent" LES
lamps bought from Asda about 5 years ago claimed a consumption wattage
rating of 12W. Testing revealed that it was actually taking 14W but I
wasn't bothered too much about that since it certainly provided far more
light output than the 20W CFL "60W equivalent" it replaced.

Do you know if that was a true power 14W or was there a reactive
component in that figure?

The only downside being that it was rather heavier than the replaced CFL
due to the use of a meaty well engineered finned heatsink which placed an
extra burden on the height adjustable pendant luminaire over the dining
table.

I recall someone trying to use an (early ish) CFL in an anglepoise. The
results were fairly predictable!

It was eventually replaced a year or two later with an even more
efficient (and lighter) 81LPW "60W equivalent" LED with a claimed
consumption of just 10W which measured pretty close to 12W. Again, the
extra consumption wasn't an issue (but I was beginning to see a pattern
emerging). The Asda branded lamp (part number: LDA12WE27COA3000K)[1]
landed up in my Anglepoise desk lamp where it remains to this day.
Interestingly, a recent test revealed a consumption figure of 13.5W which
most likely was the result of the voltage being lower this time round
compared to the original test voltage condition some 5 years ago.

More recently, I've seen the same sort of inflated measured consumption
versus the rated consumption with the Poundland lamps - 6W versus 5.5 for
the SBC 470Lm lamps and the later 510Lm versions. Even the three quid
Home & Bargain 12W 1500Lm (125LPW) LES "100W equivalent" showed an
inflated wattage reading of about 13.5W when I tested it before
installing it into the bathroom light fitting which had housed the last
remaining incandescent GLS lamp.

[1] Curiously, this Asda branded lamp quotes 50/60Hz in addition to the
220 to 240 volt supply @67mA (implying a PF of 0.85) which strongly
suggests an electronic ballast more sophisticated than a mere dropper
capacitor.

However, the 220 to 240 volt range seems to be more in keeping with UK
and European supply voltages where 50Hz is the standard frequency of
supply so it's just possible that the mention of 60Hz may simply be a
matter of mislabelling (possibly a "force of habit" error).

The only other place where 60Hz is standard outside of the USA that
comes to mind is Japan (well, roughly half of Japan - the other half does
use 50Hz) so it seems a little unusual that a lamp designed to operate in
the range of 220 to 240 should also include the 60Hz option.

Possibly just someone specifying something they felt ought to be in the
spec... (wither that or they had a job lot returned from someone trying
to use them on an aircraft 400Hz supply ;-)

Since ICBA to find a couple of 7AH SLAs to black start my spare APC
SmartUPS700 in 60Hz mode, this claim of 60Hz compatibility is going to
remain untested for the foreseeable future.

Yup, there are some things that even enquiring minds don't really need
to know!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tuesday, 16 January 2018 20:58:16 UTC, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 17:31:25 -0000, harry wrote:

Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

Bet you their life is even shorter than a filament bulb.

One that I brought lasted under 3 hours. Not sure what happened. It was a 4W=40W with 4 'elements'.

On 17 Jan 2018 10:49:29 GMT, Huge wrote:


I got a "candle" format GLS BC LED from somewhere for a table lamp with
a glass globe that has a small hole and won't fit over a incandescent
bulb, much less a standard LED one. I think it came from B&Q.

Ah but was it 11W and 1440 lumen? This is what we have currently
without the globe and I don't want to lose too much light if I refit
the globe.

AJH

On Wednesday, 17 January 2018 04:55:22 UTC, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:00:09 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

====snip====


There is a second significant advantage, in that the strips are
typically arranged into relatively high voltage chains such that they
can be be wired in sets of 4 directly across the mains with no need to
use dropper capacitors. Hence better reliability and less temperature
sensitive ageing.

I'm afraid that's most definitely untrue. The closer the 'filament'
drive voltage rating approaches the supply voltage, the greater their
sensitivity to supply voltage variations becomes in regard of their
forward voltage drop conductivity.

LEDs can't be driven directly from a constant voltage source without
risk of thermal runaway when being driven close to their operational
limits typical of GLS applications. They need some form of current
limiting whether a simple capacitive dropper that drops 30 to 70% of the
supply voltage or else a more sophisticated electronic ballast that
supplies a more tightly controlled constant current optimised for the
LEDs used in the filament strings or the COB array.

Since my commissioning tests on each new LED GLS lamp I've purchased
during the past 5 years or so have revealed a higher consumption than
that claimed for these lamps in every case, I've finally come to the
conclusion that it's a consequence of meeting a minimum Lumens output
(typically a 60W equivalent of 810Lm) at the bottom of the 220 to 240
volt mains voltage range when powered from a 240v UK supply.

The first of the latest "High Efficiency" 68LPW GLS "60W equivalent" LES
lamps bought from Asda about 5 years ago claimed a consumption wattage
rating of 12W. Testing revealed that it was actually taking 14W but I
wasn't bothered too much about that since it certainly provided far more
light output than the 20W CFL "60W equivalent" it replaced.

The only downside being that it was rather heavier than the replaced CFL
due to the use of a meaty well engineered finned heatsink which placed an
extra burden on the height adjustable pendant luminaire over the dining
table.

It was eventually replaced a year or two later with an even more
efficient (and lighter) 81LPW "60W equivalent" LED with a claimed
consumption of just 10W which measured pretty close to 12W. Again, the
extra consumption wasn't an issue (but I was beginning to see a pattern
emerging). The Asda branded lamp (part number: LDA12WE27COA3000K)[1]
landed up in my Anglepoise desk lamp where it remains to this day.
Interestingly, a recent test revealed a consumption figure of 13.5W which
most likely was the result of the voltage being lower this time round
compared to the original test voltage condition some 5 years ago.

More recently, I've seen the same sort of inflated measured consumption
versus the rated consumption with the Poundland lamps - 6W versus 5.5 for
the SBC 470Lm lamps and the later 510Lm versions. Even the three quid
Home & Bargain 12W 1500Lm (125LPW) LES "100W equivalent" showed an
inflated wattage reading of about 13.5W when I tested it before
installing it into the bathroom light fitting which had housed the last
remaining incandescent GLS lamp.

[1] Curiously, this Asda branded lamp quotes 50/60Hz in addition to the
220 to 240 volt supply @67mA (implying a PF of 0.85) which strongly
suggests an electronic ballast more sophisticated than a mere dropper
capacitor.

However, the 220 to 240 volt range seems to be more in keeping with UK
and European supply voltages where 50Hz is the standard frequency of
supply so it's just possible that the mention of 60Hz may simply be a
matter of mislabelling (possibly a "force of habit" error).

The only other place where 60Hz is standard outside of the USA that
comes to mind is Japan (well, roughly half of Japan - the other half does
use 50Hz) so it seems a little unusual that a lamp designed to operate in
the range of 220 to 240 should also include the 60Hz option.

Since ICBA to find a couple of 7AH SLAs to black start my spare APC
SmartUPS700 in 60Hz mode, this claim of 60Hz compatibility is going to
remain untested for the foreseeable future.

sounds like you're not up to date with the latest generation of LED lighting drivers. Not finding the link but basically they switch which LEDs are on according to the momentary mains voltage.


NT

That sounds like a terrible idea.

JR, JbG and even AG can argue the toss, but if Big Clive Mitchell
isn't aware of it, it's not happening. ;-)



--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 January 2018 20:58:16 UTC, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 17:31:25 -0000, harry
wrote:

Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

Bet you their life is even shorter than a filament bulb.

One that I brought lasted under 3 hours. Not sure what happened. It was a
4W=40W with 4 'elements'.


The room I'm is lit with 121 of these beasts. They've already out-lived
their filament predecessors.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 17 Jan 2018 10:49:29 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2018-01-16, wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:00:09 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

I find its actually a very good idea - I use them almost exclusively.
The main attraction (other than being nicer to look at in applications
where you can see the bulb) is the 360 degree radiation pattern, that
closely resembles a GLS lamp. Hence any fittings that use the lamp cap
down or the whole lamp side on, still give the intended illumination.


Does GLS have a standard size? I have one of these LED filament bulbs
in my sitting room but the diffuser has a 65mm hole and won't fit
over the bulb.

Any ideas for an LED with equivalent light output in a smaller bulb?

I got a "candle" format GLS BC LED from somewhere for a table lamp with
a glass globe that has a small hole and won't fit over a incandescent
bulb, much less a standard LED one. I think it came from B&Q.

'GLS' is the shape and size of the ordinary incandescent bulb, so you can't
have a GLS candle - it's a bit like having a 3-wheeled bike!
There is a number for the standard size but ICR what it is.
Sometimes it's confusing; IIRC, MR16 is a shape, GU10 is a base/cap but is
MR16!
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 12:45:12 -0800 (PST), misterroy wrote:

... the basic collection of straight filament sticks are (mostly)
the
most effcient domestic light bulbs out there at 100 lm/W. They
are my
bulb of choice now, provided the price is right (£3 ish).

can you post a link to a lamp you are using Dave?

I have various one in use. The first were a "distress" purchase of
SES candle type to fit some new light fittings, 3 for 2 offer in
Tesco, so £4 each. Others have come from Homebase (on offer) or
Costco.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 10:47:21 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 17/01/2018 04:55, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:00:09 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

====snip====


There is a second significant advantage, in that the strips are
typically arranged into relatively high voltage chains such that they
can be be wired in sets of 4 directly across the mains with no need to
use dropper capacitors. Hence better reliability and less temperature
sensitive ageing.

I'm afraid that's most definitely untrue.

Yup, actually I would agree with that ;-)

====snip====

The first of the latest "High Efficiency" 68LPW GLS "60W equivalent"
LES
lamps bought from Asda about 5 years ago claimed a consumption wattage
rating of 12W. Testing revealed that it was actually taking 14W but I
wasn't bothered too much about that since it certainly provided far
more light output than the 20W CFL "60W equivalent" it replaced.

Do you know if that was a true power 14W or was there a reactive
component in that figure?

Actual RMS power as shown by my Metrawatt analogue watt meter.


The only downside being that it was rather heavier than the replaced
CFL
due to the use of a meaty well engineered finned heatsink which placed
an extra burden on the height adjustable pendant luminaire over the
dining table.

I recall someone trying to use an (early ish) CFL in an anglepoise. The
results were fairly predictable!

The Asda lamp wasn't as heavy as those early Philips jam jar SL13s of
which I presume you speak. The anglepoise seems to handle the weight of
the Asda lamp with ease (certainly far better than the Ikea pull down
pendant luminaire I'd transplanted it from).

====snip====


[1] Curiously, this Asda branded lamp quotes 50/60Hz in addition to the
220 to 240 volt supply @67mA (implying a PF of 0.85) which strongly
suggests an electronic ballast more sophisticated than a mere dropper
capacitor.

However, the 220 to 240 volt range seems to be more in keeping with
UK
and European supply voltages where 50Hz is the standard frequency of
supply so it's just possible that the mention of 60Hz may simply be a
matter of mislabelling (possibly a "force of habit" error).

The only other place where 60Hz is standard outside of the USA that
comes to mind is Japan (well, roughly half of Japan - the other half
does use 50Hz) so it seems a little unusual that a lamp designed to
operate in the range of 220 to 240 should also include the 60Hz option.

Possibly just someone specifying something they felt ought to be in the
spec... (wither that or they had a job lot returned from someone trying
to use them on an aircraft 400Hz supply ;-)

Since ICBA to find a couple of 7AH SLAs to black start my spare APC
SmartUPS700 in 60Hz mode, this claim of 60Hz compatibility is going to
remain untested for the foreseeable future.

Yup, there are some things that even enquiring minds don't really need
to know!

Well, since it functions quite well as a slightly brighter equivalent to
a 60W incandescent light bulb in the anglepoise lamp, I'm not overly
bothered about the details. Replacing it with a 150LPW version in a few
years time is only going to save a mere 7 watts or so which is neither
here nor there in the larger scheme of things anyway. It will eventually
be replaced, but only after I've had my money's worth out of it.

I'm looking forward to the more efficient LED GLS lamps *finally*
reaching the market not for their reduced running costs so much as for
removing the need to stop being so fussy about which of the existing
luminaires can safely take a 150W equivalent lamp without risk of
premature failure due to overheating. :-)

The slight reduction in the overall electricity bill is a welcome side
effect but not enough reason by itself to invest in the improved
efficiency of 150 and 200 LPW lamps. The original CFLs grabbed all the
low hanging fruit of electric lighting running cost savings over two
decades ago, leaving LED GLS lamps to slowly gather the high hanging
fruits of energy savings during the past 5 years as an exercise in
diminishing returns.

Twenty years ago, it made good financial sense to invest 50 quid in CFLs
to knock 250 quid off the annual electricity bill. Today, it would take a
50 quid investment in the latest LED GLS lamps just to knock another 40
to 50 quid off the electricity bill. It's just not enough of a saving,
especially when you know you'll most likely be able to achieve the same
savings a year or two later for a mere 20 or 30 quid investment in LED
lamps.

--
Johnny B Good

On 16/01/2018 19:22, Rod Speed wrote:

What an odd idea. Make a super-duper LED lamp that emulates a pre-WW2
incandescent.

Our local has them and they look really good.

They look really ****ing stupid IMO.

Well as you've often suggested Rod, everyone in this country IS ****ing
stupid, so it suits us.

Bill

On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 09:19:31 +0000, PeterC wrote:

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 09:31:25 -0800 (PST), harry wrote:

Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

'Filament' LEDs are, AIUI, COB and are probably the least inefficient
LEDs generally available. Morrisons have (had?) some 6W, 800lm, 'GLS'
B22 lamps, unfortunately ~3000K (I prefer 4000K+) for a fiver each. I
have one and it is good. I've not checked the actual wattage - OK, just
for you:
5W is flickering 4 - 5 and is just under %W based on VAxPF 15W, 1500lm
is similarly marginally low 60W incandesent shows 60W - surprising as
the voltage is ~245.

5 years ago I wouln't go below 80lm/W; 3 years ago I considered only
=100lm/W, with exception for GU10 for desk and bench lights that don't
spend long on.

Ikea changed to all Led, but those are worse than my benchmark 5 years
ago!

BTW, I bought from Ledlam some lamps that have COB on ceramic blades.
The blades are in a triangel and very translucent, with the 'back' of
each blade shining throght th gap between the other two, so near enough
360 deg.
The 3W is 320lm and the 5W is 600lm - this was 3 years ago! How progress
goes - not!

Five years ago (iirc) I thought the 78LPW Asda LED "60 watter" (810Lm at
12 watt rated - actual, 14 watt- consumption) was a worthy replacement
for a 20W CFL of nominally the same lumens output so I bought one to try
out. It proved to have a definite edge in lumen output compared to the CFL
it replaced - instant on for 6 watts less consumption!

That's since been replaced with a "10W" (actually 12 watts) 810Lm lamp
and my most recent LED GLS purchase a few weeks back from Home & Bargain
was a 3 quid 1500Lm 12W (actually a little over 13 watts) "100W
equivalent" E27 LED GLS lamp to replace an actual 100W incandescent light
bulb in the bathroom ceiling fitting (horizontally mounted lamp). Rather
pleasingly, it proved slightly brighter, most likely due to the 5 or 6
year old original bulb having become slightly blackened on its upper
surface as mounted in the luminaire.

I didn't bother comparing it against one of the three spare 100W E27
lamps that I'd purchased with the luminaire but I rather doubt I would've
been disappointed even if I had compared it to a brand new unused 100W
incandescent GLS lamp.

It's only now that we're starting to see 125 and 133 LPW LED GLS lamps
appearing on shop shelves despite one of Cree's CEOs promising that the
303LPW lamp they'd announced almost four years ago (Mar 2014) as a record
breaking laboratory 'Milestone' would be on the shop shelves in a time
frame of 18 to 24 months.

Up until about 6 months ago, I'd been stewing over this 'broken promise'
until I revisited the web page article and spotted, from Cree's very own
progress chart, that the historical reality approximated a lead time of
ten years[1] rather than the 2 years quoted by the CEO who one might have
expected to have checked out his own company's PR materials before
shooting his mouth off with unrealistic promises, D'Oh!

[1] According to the chart, it's looking more like a 12 year lead time
between laboratory 'Milestones' and shop shelves. The 131LPW 'milestone'
occurred way back in 2006, suggesting that we just might see 150LPW
product materialising in the next two or three years.

http://www.cree.com/news-media/news/...-to-break-300-
lumens-per-watt-barrier

--
Johnny B Good

On 18/01/2018 00:53, Johnny B Good wrote:

Twenty years ago, it made good financial sense to invest 50 quid in CFLs
to knock 250 quid off the annual electricity bill.

I think quite a few (well, me!) got them for a lot less than that. And
while there can be some pretty good savings, CFLs had more to them than
that - with warm up, slow fade to fail and not always (or often IME) as
listed light output/quality. Although personally I quite like the light
of some CFLs.

Today, it would take a
50 quid investment in the latest LED GLS lamps just to knock another 40
to 50 quid off the electricity bill. It's just not enough of a saving,

With the exception of a couple of small ES dimmable LEDs, one strip
fluorescent in the kitchen, and a couple of multi LED fixtures (which
proved better/cheaper than bulbs/shade), I don't think I've spent more
than £2 on a bulb (mainly £1), and replaced when CFLs etc failed. Not a
single failure (yet), with the oldest at about 10,000 hours. And I tend
to keep some lights on, and have a lot of table lamps (not a fan of one
main room light most of the time).

So for my use (and maybe that of a few others) it can work out at a
decent long term saving, especially if advertised bulb life can be assumed.

It would hopefully have a knock on in the sense of grid capacity
requirements, especially as street lights start to be changed to LED

My main criticism, on the loose assumption that they don't all start to
fail, is the directional nature of the light. I seem to have got used to
that - although whether that's a good thing to get used to or not is an
issue.

especially when you know you'll most likely be able to achieve the same
savings a year or two later for a mere 20 or 30 quid investment in LED
lamps.


Yep, that'll probably happen.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 17/01/2018 16:20, Graham. wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 January 2018 04:55:22 UTC, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:00:09 +0000, John Rumm wrote:


sounds like you're not up to date with the latest generation of LED lighting drivers. Not finding the link but basically they switch which LEDs are on according to the momentary mains voltage.

but if Big Clive Mitchell
isn't aware of it, it's not happening. ;-)



https://youtu.be/KKd2L9Exw0M?t=127

BUT watch to around 9 minutes.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Thursday, 18 January 2018 05:51:47 UTC, RJH wrote:
On 18/01/2018 00:53, Johnny B Good wrote:

while there can be some pretty good savings, CFLs had more to them than
that - with warm up, slow fade to fail and not always (or often IME) as
listed light output/quality.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...er_Equivalence


So for my use (and maybe that of a few others) it can work out at a
decent long term saving, especially if advertised bulb life can be assumed.

Can it?


It would hopefully have a knock on in the sense of grid capacity
requirements, especially as street lights start to be changed to LED

LEDs consume more power per lumen than sodium, so while some of the changed over lights save energy, many now consume more energy.


NT

On Wednesday, 17 January 2018 17:33:26 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 January 2018 20:58:16 UTC, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 17:31:25 -0000, harry
wrote:

Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

Bet you their life is even shorter than a filament bulb.

One that I brought lasted under 3 hours. Not sure what happened. It was a
4W=40W with 4 'elements'.


The room I'm is lit with 121 of these beasts.

Surely that's a typo 121 !

Are you sure this room isn't a concert hall .

Anyway my proirity is normally to do with the type and amount of light and not how long it lasts.
I certanly wouldn;t go out and spend over £200 on these lights unless someone else was paying

Johnny B Good wrote:
Twenty years ago, it made good financial sense to invest 50 quid in CFLs
to knock 250 quid off the annual electricity bill.

That means you were consuming something like 250 watts of lighting for
24hours/day for the whole year, seems unlikely to me.

My 'rule of thumb' for electricity costs is that 1 watt continuously
for 1 year costs around £1. (8760 hours in a year, so 1 watt is 8760
watt/hours, 8.76kwH at 12p/unit costs £1.05) It's probably a bit more
now as electricity costs a bit more but even then your figures seem a
bit high unless you have a very big house.

--
Chris Green
·

On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 16:32:12 +0000, charles wrote:

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 January 2018 20:58:16 UTC, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 17:31:25 -0000, harry

wrote:

Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

Bet you their life is even shorter than a filament bulb.

One that I brought lasted under 3 hours. Not sure what happened. It was
a 4W=40W with 4 'elements'.


The room I'm is lit with 121 of these beasts. They've already out-lived
their filament predecessors.

Ye Gods! Just how big a room are you lighting if you're using 121 "40W
equivalent" 470 or 510 lumens lamps? By my reckoning that's something
like a total of 57,000 to 62,000 lumens' worth of lighting.

I'm forced to conclude that you're using the word "room" in the
theatrical sense to refer to a theatre or large hall as "the room".

--
Johnny B Good

On 16/01/2018 17:31, harry wrote:
Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work



I like the led tube replacements, but I haven't looked for any yet, do
they fit in standard tube setups ?

On 18/01/2018 00:53, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 10:47:21 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 17/01/2018 04:55, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:00:09 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

====snip====


There is a second significant advantage, in that the strips are
typically arranged into relatively high voltage chains such that they
can be be wired in sets of 4 directly across the mains with no need to
use dropper capacitors. Hence better reliability and less temperature
sensitive ageing.

I'm afraid that's most definitely untrue.

Yup, actually I would agree with that ;-)

====snip====

The first of the latest "High Efficiency" 68LPW GLS "60W equivalent"
LES
lamps bought from Asda about 5 years ago claimed a consumption wattage
rating of 12W. Testing revealed that it was actually taking 14W but I
wasn't bothered too much about that since it certainly provided far
more light output than the 20W CFL "60W equivalent" it replaced.

Do you know if that was a true power 14W or was there a reactive
component in that figure?

Actual RMS power as shown by my Metrawatt analogue watt meter.


The only downside being that it was rather heavier than the replaced
CFL
due to the use of a meaty well engineered finned heatsink which placed
an extra burden on the height adjustable pendant luminaire over the
dining table.

I recall someone trying to use an (early ish) CFL in an anglepoise. The
results were fairly predictable!

The Asda lamp wasn't as heavy as those early Philips jam jar SL13s of
which I presume you speak. The anglepoise seems to handle the weight of
the Asda lamp with ease (certainly far better than the Ikea pull down
pendant luminaire I'd transplanted it from).

====snip====


[1] Curiously, this Asda branded lamp quotes 50/60Hz in addition to the
220 to 240 volt supply @67mA (implying a PF of 0.85) which strongly
suggests an electronic ballast more sophisticated than a mere dropper
capacitor.

However, the 220 to 240 volt range seems to be more in keeping with
UK
and European supply voltages where 50Hz is the standard frequency of
supply so it's just possible that the mention of 60Hz may simply be a
matter of mislabelling (possibly a "force of habit" error).

The only other place where 60Hz is standard outside of the USA that
comes to mind is Japan (well, roughly half of Japan - the other half
does use 50Hz) so it seems a little unusual that a lamp designed to
operate in the range of 220 to 240 should also include the 60Hz option.

Possibly just someone specifying something they felt ought to be in the
spec... (wither that or they had a job lot returned from someone trying
to use them on an aircraft 400Hz supply ;-)

Since ICBA to find a couple of 7AH SLAs to black start my spare APC
SmartUPS700 in 60Hz mode, this claim of 60Hz compatibility is going to
remain untested for the foreseeable future.

Yup, there are some things that even enquiring minds don't really need
to know!

Well, since it functions quite well as a slightly brighter equivalent to
a 60W incandescent light bulb in the anglepoise lamp, I'm not overly
bothered about the details. Replacing it with a 150LPW version in a few
years time is only going to save a mere 7 watts or so which is neither
here nor there in the larger scheme of things anyway. It will eventually
be replaced, but only after I've had my money's worth out of it.

I'm looking forward to the more efficient LED GLS lamps *finally*
reaching the market not for their reduced running costs so much as for
removing the need to stop being so fussy about which of the existing
luminaires can safely take a 150W equivalent lamp without risk of
premature failure due to overheating. :-)

The slight reduction in the overall electricity bill is a welcome side
effect but not enough reason by itself to invest in the improved
efficiency of 150 and 200 LPW lamps. The original CFLs grabbed all the
low hanging fruit of electric lighting running cost savings over two
decades ago, leaving LED GLS lamps to slowly gather the high hanging
fruits of energy savings during the past 5 years as an exercise in
diminishing returns.

Twenty years ago, it made good financial sense to invest 50 quid in CFLs
to knock 250 quid off the annual electricity bill. Today, it would take a
50 quid investment in the latest LED GLS lamps just to knock another 40
to 50 quid off the electricity bill. It's just not enough of a saving,
especially when you know you'll most likely be able to achieve the same
savings a year or two later for a mere 20 or 30 quid investment in LED
lamps.

If you save money, the electric companies will increase the cost to you,
they will make sure they don't lose out

On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:41:25 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:
Twenty years ago, it made good financial sense to invest 50 quid in
CFLs
to knock 250 quid off the annual electricity bill.

That means you were consuming something like 250 watts of lighting for
24hours/day for the whole year, seems unlikely to me.

My 'rule of thumb' for electricity costs is that 1 watt continuously for
1 year costs around £1. (8760 hours in a year, so 1 watt is 8760
watt/hours, 8.76kwH at 12p/unit costs £1.05) It's probably a bit more
now as electricity costs a bit more but even then your figures seem a
bit high unless you have a very big house.

I have a very big house.

--
Johnny B Good

In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 16:32:12 +0000, charles wrote:

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 January 2018 20:58:16 UTC, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 17:31:25 -0000, harry

wrote:

Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

Bet you their life is even shorter than a filament bulb.

One that I brought lasted under 3 hours. Not sure what happened. It was
a 4W=40W with 4 'elements'.


The room I'm is lit with 121 of these beasts. They've already out-lived
their filament predecessors.

Ye Gods! Just how big a room are you lighting if you're using 121 "40W
equivalent" 470 or 510 lumens lamps? By my reckoning that's something
like a total of 57,000 to 62,000 lumens' worth of lighting.

I'm forced to conclude that you're using the word "room" in the
theatrical sense to refer to a theatre or large hall as "the room".

No, I'm admitting to a typo, should be 12

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 18/01/2018 19:14, critcher wrote:
On 18/01/2018 00:53, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 10:47:21 +0000, John Rumm wrote:
snip

Â* Twenty years ago, it made good financial sense to invest 50 quid in
CFLs
to knock 250 quid off the annual electricity bill. Today, it would take a
50 quid investment in the latest LED GLS lamps just to knock another 40
to 50 quid off the electricity bill. It's just not enough of a saving,
especially when you know you'll most likely be able to achieve the same
savings a year or two later for a mere 20 or 30 quid investment in LED
lamps.

If you save money, the electric companies will increase the cost to you,
Â*they will make sure they don't lose out

Or sell you energy monitors and smart gizmos that use electricity :-)

--
Cheers, Rob

On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 21:08:20 +0000, charles wrote:

In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 16:32:12 +0000, charles wrote:

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 January 2018 20:58:16 UTC, James Wilkinson Sword
wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 17:31:25 -0000, harry

wrote:

Came across this, interesting.
https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

Bet you their life is even shorter than a filament bulb.

One that I brought lasted under 3 hours. Not sure what happened. It
was a 4W=40W with 4 'elements'.


The room I'm is lit with 121 of these beasts. They've already
out-lived their filament predecessors.

Ye Gods! Just how big a room are you lighting if you're using 121 "40W
equivalent" 470 or 510 lumens lamps? By my reckoning that's something
like a total of 57,000 to 62,000 lumens' worth of lighting.

I'm forced to conclude that you're using the word "room" in the
theatrical sense to refer to a theatre or large hall as "the room".

No, I'm admitting to a typo, should be 12

Thanks for the clarification. :-) Mind you, that's still some 6,000 or
so lumens' worth of lighting. It's either a very *large* or *bright* room
in the context of domestic lighting.

It's a sobering thought that a mere 12 quid's worth of those Poundland
5.5W 510Lm LED GLS light bulbs (BC22 or E27) could have been used to
provide the same illumination level for about an extra 20 watts more
consumption over and above the 48 watts consumption of those LED filament
lamps.

Assuming a price point for those filament type 4W LED "40W GLS
equivalent" lamps of circa 3 quid a pop, that represents a break even
point of some 4 to 5 years of lamp life. That's a long enough time span
to have you thinking of the saying, "I'm damned if I do and damned if I
don't." :-(

--
Johnny B Good

On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 19:09:16 +0000, critcher wrote:

https://ledlam.co.uk/how-do-led-filament-work

I like the led tube replacements, but I haven't looked for any yet, do
they fit in standard tube setups ?

By "tube" do you men flourescent tube? Aldi had 5' T8 21 W 2000 lm
LED tubes in before Christmas. Looks like they didn't sell very well
as I picked up two for £4.99 each... They work well, simply take out
old tube, fit LED one and change the starter for the "starter"
supplied.

I guess there are losses in the ballast that is still in circuit. If
one felt inclined you could wire L and N directly to one of the tube
holders and have done with the ballast and starter. You'd have to put
the LED tube in the right way round and a flory tube wouldn't work.
Not sure if the filament in a florry would object to being
permenantly connected across the mains.

--
Cheers
Dave.